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Boardman writes: "There is no good reason to make a bad situation worse. It's likely to get worse all on its own, and unimaginably worse if the government starts to fall."

File photo, the Free Syrian Army (photo: Manu Brabo/AP)
File photo, the Free Syrian Army (photo: Manu Brabo/AP)


To What End Do We Kill?

By William Boardman, Reader Supported News

28 August 13

 

Are you saying that doing nothing in Syria is the best option?

he unpleasant reality in Syria is that there are no good choices, for the U.S. or much of anyone else. But the crushing reality is that, comparatively, the U.S. and perhaps the world will be better off keeping Assad in power for the nonce, rather than coping with the likely chaos flowing uncontrollably from any other outcome.

There is no good reason to make a bad situation worse. It's likely to get worse all on its own, and unimaginably worse if the government starts to fall.

But wouldn't it be good if the "rebels" won?

Not likely. No one knows who the "rebels" are with any certainty, except that we know they are anything but a united, coherent force. We don't even know if any of them have goals worthy of support. There are many rebel groups with as many interests, most of them lethal – to each other, to their neighbors, to everyone.

But getting rid of Assad is good all by itself, isn't it?

Oh, of course, just like getting rid of Saddam Hussein was good all by itself. Have you no memory?

Unfortunately, we have been cursed with leadership that chooses to ignore the reality that nothing exists "all by itself." Everything is interconnected, which should be obvious to anyone. But Obama/Kerry don't seem to get it any better than Bush/Cheney did. Their common assumption, that they can control reality and determine outcomes, is a hallmark of hubris (also madness, also bloodthirsty recklessness).

For all the mindless destruction the Iraq war has visited on everyone involved (except the insulated commanders), the indefensible result today is an Iraq that has suffered and continues to suffer far more than it would have had Saddam remained in power. War crimes tend to turn out badly.

So we should leave Assad in power?

The first problem with that question is the assumption that it's up to "us," whoever "us" is. Unquestionably "we" can intervene in any horrific way we choose, and no one can stop us. But that's where our control of events ends, and the benefits of any intervention are hard to identify – most likely because they are nil.

Of course an attack might briefly satisfy the mindless impulse to "do something," even if all we accomplished was showing that we were tough, by teaching Syrians they better not kill Syrians unless they want us to come in and kill more Syrians.

But chemical weapons are evil, aren't they?

That's really a religious question. But eve if they ARE evil, so what? Foreign policy doesn't involve itself with questions of good and evil.

That's not the cavalier response it may look like – the answer is "so what?" Because pretty much everyone uses chemical weapons one way or another, and almost all the time no one does anything about it. The cry of "chemical weapons" is mindless emotionalism designed to eliminate thought, not illuminate it.

What does that mean?

Depleted Uranium (DU) is a toxic heavy metal with lethal properties. The U.S. and other countries have used and continue to use depleted Uranium weapons, DU WMDs. Our depleted Uranium still poisons countries from the Balkans to Iraq. Logically, we should have been sending Tomahawk missiles against ourselves for the past 20 years, to teach ourselves a lesson we're clearly having a hard time learning.

So ignore the pseudo morality of a near-hysterical Secretary of State who thought the illegal war in Iraq was a good idea, or at least too popular to resist. When Kerry calls chemical weapons in Syria a "moral obscenity" (as he did on August 26), remind yourself that he has never objected to DU WMDs. Ever.

There is no principle at stake in the current Syrian situation, and there is no articulable goal that justifies intervention except intervention for its own sake. All that's at stake is the unprincipled use of power for its own sake.

Are you saying we should just stand by and watch people die?

Get over yourself. We do it all the time when it suits us.

That's how the world has been for a long time, probably even before we intervened with Native American populations by giving them blankets contaminated with smallpox.



William M. Boardman has over 40 years experience in theatre, radio, TV, print journalism, and non-fiction, including 20 years in the Vermont judiciary. He has received honors from Writers Guild of America, Corporation for Public Broadcasting, Vermont Life magazine, and an Emmy Award nomination from the Academy of Television Arts and Sciences.

Reader Supported News is the Publication of Origin for this work. Permission to republish is freely granted with credit and a link back to Reader Supported News.

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+25 # 666 2013-08-28 14:51
I think was blankets laced with smallpox...
 
 
+6 # Kootenay Coyote 2013-08-29 08:22
True; but the results were comparable.
 
 
+7 # WBoardman 2013-08-29 13:34
666 is quite right, my mistake. Now corrected.

Consolation: apparently it could have been anthrax.
 
 
+6 # Harbinger 2013-08-29 18:36
But not AIDS. Not HIV. Because back when the US was disposing of the Native American population, the CIA with all its diabolical technical and scientific machinations wasn't around to help.

The US didn't even have LSD yet to blow the Native American's mind. Had to make do with john barleycorn and the disease du jour.
 
 
0 # MidwesTom 2013-08-29 22:43
According to a paper I read several years agos, AIDS was developed in a NY lab, I think on Long Island.
 
 
+1 # intheEPZ 2013-09-03 17:36
The question is, where did Syria or whomever get the Sarin-filled weapons? USA? Russia? Saudi Arabia? The amazing lack of evidence offered by John Kerry is stunning. Just as with Saddam's WMD (and the fact that we made sure he was tried and hanged without ever getting to testify where HE got the chemical weapons he used--but we know, don't we?) Tracing the source of the weapons will tell volumes about who shot them and why. It was simpler in the Indian wars, everyone knew who sourced and who used the ghastly, immoral biological weapons. As Mr. Boardman eloquently pointed out, the moral question is the same. And killing more people will not make it better. Violence begets violence. Hate begets more hate. When will we ever learn?
 
 
+44 # RMDC 2013-08-28 15:21
To What End Do We Kill?

That question is easy to answer. It is the history of Europe and the US. They kill because they are racial supremacist nations who think that dark skinned and non-christian peoples exist to be killed by whites. Euro-Americans have genocided indigenous people all over the face of the earth. They began a killing spree in 1492 (or earlier if you include the Crusades) and it has never stopped.

The west is run by psychopaths. Obama is only the errand boy doing the work of the neo-cons. You can see this in his eyes when he speaks. He knows he is only doing what he is told to do. If he had any decency or moral courage, he'd just resign and walk away from the role forced on him. But he won't. He's too afraid.
 
 
+20 # Activista 2013-08-28 22:39
Agree - think that Obama tries to be fair, but what he can do with neo-neocons like Kerry?
I hope that he will do what British are doing - seek UN approval - that will never happen - and there will be no bombing.
It is so absurd that American people are so brainwashed - especially if this are the same lies, same scenarios like in Iraq, Lybia.
 
 
+34 # grandma lynn 2013-08-29 03:50
When does Obama try to be fair? He is good with words, probably a failing of our educational system. Being good with words isn't the same as having moral fiber and courage to act morally. Look at these words he said at the MLK rally:
"The young are unconstrained by what is"; he praised people "who take a 1st step for justice"; "Change doesn't come from Washington but to Washington"; "people who love America can change it." All exemplary words and thoughts - but if he acted upon them, he'd have to pardon Chelsea Manning and honor Edward Snowden. He has a disconnect, suffers from it, does not deserve praise as a leader.
 
 
+23 # tedrey 2013-08-29 09:39
Remember 1984? Obama is a vivid example of "doublethink" in action. He can hold contradictory beliefs in his mind at the same time. The same action or decision is good if "we" do it, bad if "they" do it. But "we" is now a small group at the top, and "they" is the rest of the world.
 
 
+25 # RnR 2013-08-29 06:50
I don't think the American people are brainwashed, I think they're ignored.
 
 
+4 # robcarter.vn 2013-08-29 17:46
The story Boardman wrote is Good, RMD comment is spot on mostly. "Of course an attack might briefly satisfy the mindless impulse to "do something," Boardman said but the fact as RMDC asks Same why? Answer's err, simply US employment is screwed by automation Prof. Kondratiev Wave tells it all. So post 1929 needed a war for the Corp America Cash & Nation spending, today means more QE and loans Bonds debt etc, starve the poorer 60% Citizens to Proselytize & interfere all over the world fight in 60+ Nations over 60 years. What a Western mess can do. Trickle out to Corp USA they paid $2 bn each party campaign. Stir others they stir back 9/11 again?
Worse when we want to prove anything it needs affidavits, corroborative proofs, Court Judges or sign your life away. But for Obi-one damned dictator he says telephone invasion by NSA heard some dude say it so it proves Assad used WMD nerve gas to kill 1500. Obi has the gall to stand in public and say that's proving evidence corroborative etc.
Does that mean if we want to prove we need a pension rise for VA they should chatter rubbish on mobiphone for NSA ears to prove our claim. No affidavits etc?
 
 
+1 # Rita Walpole Ague 2013-08-31 09:24
Yes, RMDC, I also sense his fear of not following the orders of his puppeteers. For some time now, I have sensed his being both bought off and scared off.

Guess our only hope is to all of us pull together, if Oh Bomb Ah should ignore Congress and the vast majority of the Americans who oppose this 'limited strike', an act of war based violence that will extremely likely cause more problems than it offers solutions, and end us up, once again, in war, war, war (oh so profitable for the MIC, the 'fossil foolers' and other of our 1% villainaire rulers). If this pres. goes ahead and commits and unconstitutiona l, non- approved by Congress act of war, we should join together to impeach this pres., and send a message to all clown puppet whores:

OCCUPY LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL!
 
 
+22 # Activista 2013-08-28 15:54
Excellent objective article on the Syria - repost on Facebook - be proactive.
 
 
+41 # Eldon J. Bloedorn 2013-08-28 22:42
We've been recklessly poisoning countries for some time. I speak with many people just while having lunch, an iced tea break. I ask, "what do you know about the U.S. military using D U?" Almost 90 % of the people I speak with have not heard of D U. I ask, "why call a removed isotope from naturally occuring uranium, D U. I explain, the differece is that D U is the removed isotope, something one wants to get rid of so as to enrich uranium. So, what do we do with it? Heavier than lead and it makes "great" weapon of mass destruction ammo. Except it is about 60-70 % as dangerous to one's health as naturally occurring uranium. U.S. citizens, generally speaking do not know. We have a very ignorant country when the vast majority of our citizens simply do not know that Southern Iraq will be "nuclear hot" for millions of years. So what? One may ask? Cancer rates in Southern Iraq have increased 6-7 fold since records were kept-before and after the Iraqi war. Agent Orange-used in Viet Nam. A horrible weapon of mass destruction. D U, a horrible weapon of mass destruction. The American military/indust rial complex. How much money have they spent to keep the American people, mostly by bribing our legislators, ignorant of the fact that the U.S. is the leading terrorist nation on earth? If Syrians are being gassed by horrible bastards, an issue for the world court and not a reason for the U.S. to use weapons of mass destruction in Syria, polute the country with nuclear radiation.
 
 
+27 # Dave45 2013-08-29 00:39
EJB--Though somewhat indirectly, you have make an extremely important point in your last sentence, namely, that the US as a nation quite simply possesses neither the moral character nor the ethical credibility necessary for passing judgment on the acts of other nations. Thus, decisions like those regarding Syria should be left to international bodies like the World Court or the UN. We tend to forget that for over 60 years the US has been waging unjust/undeclar ed wars, torturing its enemies, selling illegal drugs to facilitate its covert activities, assassinating people in preference to trying them openly in a court of law, breaking international laws with shameless audacity, ignoring the requirements of its own constitution, and offering courses to foreign terrorists on how to do the same kinds of things in their own countries. A country like the US is simply not qualified to pass the kind of reasonable and morally credible judgments necessary for dealing with situations like the current one in Syria.
 
 
+1 # Eldon J. Bloedorn 2013-08-29 09:32
History proves that plundering countries "take their turn" to plunder other weaker countries. The war slogan by the blood thirsty military/indust rial complex bastards is, "keep 'm poor and stupid and we'll keep all the money."
 
 
+1 # 666 2013-08-31 07:33
"That mortal who sacks fallen cities is a fool, / who gives the temples and the tombs, the hallowed places of / the dead to desolation. His own turn must come."
-- Euripides, "The Trojan Women" 416 BC
 
 
+38 # Activista 2013-08-28 16:01
Objective view on Syria - only missing part is ask Israel to return Golan Heights, stop bombing Damascus, stop war propaganda about Assad brother using chemical weapons in Damascus - War in Syria is Israel proxy war against Iran - stop using USA doing your killing - To What End Do You Kill?
 
 
-33 # Rick Levy 2013-08-29 00:05
It didn't take long for some mindless Israel-basher to drag that country into the discussion. The topic was U.S. options vs. Syria. What else will you and your kind blame Israel for? Global warming?
 
 
+20 # Oscar 2013-08-29 09:26
Rick Levy:
As I see it, Activista made a specific point about the interests of Israel in an attack against Syria. Do you have a counter argument about THAT?
 
 
-12 # Rick Levy 2013-08-29 19:41
Why should Israel return the Golan Heights to a country that was out to destroy it in the 1967 war? Moreover, what has that topic to do with today's Syrian-on-Syria n violence anyway?

"War in Syria is Israel proxy war against Iran". That is an incredibly stupid remark. I suppose Assad is a really a Mossad agent?
 
 
+4 # Douglas Jack 2013-08-29 22:55
Rick Levy, Your declarations ignore statements by Netanyahu about attacking Iran? Are you unaware of Israeli continued use of the Golan-Heights to attack Syria? http://izvestia.ru/news/556048#ixzz2dGa2Fr3t

When considering history, we consult both sides to consider perspectives of each party. So called Israel was a collection of colonies appropriated indirectly through Rothchild moneys from indigenous Palestinians. Supposed 'purchases' were illegal considering the people transferring deed did not live on the lands & own titles through domicile, while those who did live on the lands for centuries & millennia weren't respected. Jews began policies of apartheid based on preference & privilege given to those who submitted to Jewish subscription & labelling.

Many conscious humanists & socialist leaning Jews object to violence against heritage-rights , human law & freedom of belief, left & continue to leave Israel in disgust. Of millions of Jewish immigrants to Israel, most have left. If a people are forced to subscribe to a belief system, association or a state, then it isn't a 'religion' (Latin 'religio' = 'to relate') or country of free adult choice, but an indoctrination controlled by force. Israel has no religion or state by this definition.

Israeli's who value their freedom exemplify mutual-aid & open inclusive participatory practices for all. https://sites.google.com/site/indigenecommunity/structure/both-sides-now-equal-time-recorded-dialogues
 
 
-5 # Rick Levy 2013-08-30 19:12
"So called Israel". You might as well have stopped right there. Everything else you scribbled after that is built on your prejudice.
 
 
+7 # Activista 2013-08-30 01:26
"War in Syria is Israel proxy war against Iran"
search
Israel Bombed Syria
1967 war was started by Israel - the same "preventive" principle as Nazi war on Poland (Nazis in Polish uniforms "attacked" German radio station.
guardian.150m.com/palestine/some-wars.htm
"Dayan who gave the order to conquer the Golan Heights, said, many of the firefights with the Syrians were deliberately provoked by Israel, and that the kibbutz residents who pressed the Government to take the Golan Heights did so less for security than for the farmland. Dayan stated "They didn't even try to hide their greed for the land... We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was... The Syrians, on the fourth day of the war, were not a threat to us." (The New York Times, May 11, 1997)"
well planned invasion/occupa tion - look at map of shrinking Palestine
www.ifamericansknew.org/history/maps.html
 
 
+4 # WBoardman 2013-08-30 11:59
Do we not think that Israel and Iran
have proxies fighting each other in Syria?

And yes, there are other proxies as well,
likely more than we can ever know.
 
 
+21 # Moefwn 2013-08-29 12:51
You know, every time I wonder aloud why the US continues to substantially fund Israel, somebody whips out the anti-Semite card. Why are we not allowed to think/ask/comme nt about that, Rick? We have a constitutional right to ask the government (and maybe you) to give us a VERY good explanation why our taxes continue to be spent in support of Israel, especially when the government keeps telling us we can't afford to maintain needed services at home. Is Israel actually an American colony?
 
 
+3 # Douglas Jack 2013-08-29 14:17
'Anti-semite'? Jews & Arabs as original Semite peoples are brothers & sisters, Israelis & Palestinians (Philistines). Jews back in Israel from international millennia of foreign living, for the most part carry very little Semitic blood, while Arabs carry high levels. Some foreign mostly European Jews impose colonial apartheid, self-righteous entitlement & unfortunate moneyed prejudice against Palestinians (a significant portion don't).
Success of some Jews monetarily regardless of rampant Christian prejudice & exclusion is an incredible success story against all odds. Money as deficient misleading accounting violates life. It's disastrous to try to impose Greater Israel from the Euphrates River to the Nile River, through continuing False-Flag disinformation, such as the lie of Chemical weapons against the Syrian government, when foreign mercenaries supplied by foreign espionage agents are responsible.
US, Canadian, NATO & Israeli use of Enhanced (depleted) uranium, chemical weapons & the war-crimes of their illegal invasions are in clear violation of all international laws. Any coward can pick up a gun, but only a brave people can engage opponents in point-by-point, equal-time, recorded & published dialogues.
https://sites.google.com/site/indigenecommunity/structure/both-sides-now-equal-time-recorded-dialogues
 
 
+1 # 666 2013-08-31 07:52
"Is Israel actually an American colony?"
- sometimes I think it's worth considering the opposite, has America effectively become an Israeli colony?

- we are right to weigh harshly & critically the overwhelming (extra-constitu tional) influence of Israel, AIPAC & it's partisans on the US & our foreign policy (to what level does that include you rick?). There's nothing anti-semitic in that (just as damning obama as an ineffective, moral-less leader & war criminal is not racist). In fact, I think if we'd had a few more "Israel bashers" in our govt, we might just have a more rational & humane foreign policy. But after Carter & the Sinai, Israel had to make sure we were fully under their thumb. Effectively they seem to have made the US their bitch. The religious right of course played a role here, as did the cold war MIC, big oil & non-jewish anti-semitism (yeah, those arabs are semites too).

- in the next stage of the discussion rick or someone else pulls out the terrorism card & tries to claim a higher moral ground. don't bother with such hypocrisy, I've witnessed & experienced the terrorism _ON BOTH SIDES_ and it sounds just like obama threatening to use wmds on syria because syria used wmds... two wrongs can't ever make a right, but the current count stands at about 2 million wrongs. we're never going to find peace in this world unless we start confronting those wrongs.

rightness of character often means doing what is right even knowing you will fail
 
 
+6 # Cougar27 2013-08-29 15:03
Careful, people. You keep needling Levy and he'll play the (gasp) Holocaust card.
 
 
+9 # reiverpacific 2013-08-29 19:23
Quoting Rick Levy:
It didn't take long for some mindless Israel-basher to drag that country into the discussion. The topic was U.S. options vs. Syria. What else will you and your kind blame Israel for? Global warming?

If the shoe fits -and by fuck it does with knobs on in the current Israeli bully-pulpit warmongering government and it's US lobby -wear it.
Take your LIKUD -lovin' blinkers off!
 
 
-5 # James38 2013-08-30 09:16
Israel "stop bombing Damascus" Huh???

Then I remembered - the Israeli bombing of the shipment of Iranian missiles headed for the Hezbollah and probably on to the Gaza strip.

Well, I wish the Israelis would quit the awful settlements, but blowing up the missiles? That just makes very good sense.
 
 
+2 # Activista 2013-08-30 11:29
"Israeli bombing of the shipment of Iranian missiles headed for the Hezbollah and probably on to the Gaza strip"
James you a true believer -- and Gaza Strip?
It is like partisans shipping grenades to the Nazi concentration camp - look at the map.
 
 
+3 # James38 2013-08-30 18:49
Activista, it is actually more like giving some grenades to the inmates of concentration camps than you might think, since the result would have been a few dead German guards, and the total annihilation of the prisoners.

The Israeli settlements are inexcusable invasions of Palestinian territory, but giving missiles to the violent radicals in the Gaza strip is not the answer.
 
 
-3 # Rick Levy 2013-08-30 19:38
Activista, you are a true ignoramus--and Gaza Strip?

Israel no longer occupies Gaza. Even Hamas recognizes this. See

http://www.thejewishweek.com/editorial_opinion/opinion/hamas_concedes_gaza_not_occupied_so_where_un
 
 
+41 # Dennyc 2013-08-28 18:53
Thanks, RMDC. You're as close as anyone's going to get describing the bloodthirsty sociopaths who control the USA. Expect the worst because that's what we're going to get - The tens of millions of indigenous people who have perished at the hands of the American consumption/des truction machine. Current scholarship is revising not only the number of Native Americans murdered (upwards to fifty million in North America alone, perhaps more as Mexican native figures are intentionally hazy), but the methodology employed. Previously most scholars thought it was the infected blanket ruse which took the most Native American lives; but it wasn't. Now there is compelling evidence that most American native people were murdered by DIRECT VIOLENCE. Now we can add a million Iraqis and Afghani people to our total (let's not forget the Vietnamese, Chinese, Japanese etc - you're certainly familiar with the litany). Genocide has become a reliable American institution and the only lessons we've learned (the gov't that is) are how to either cover them up, minimize them or justify them. Usually these three efforts play out in some sort of conjunction. I hope I'm not around when the cosmos evens the score.
 
 
+4 # Todd Williams 2013-08-29 05:12
Let's not forget the untold number of German civilians we killed in WW2. Admit it, America is the most evil, bloodthirsty country ever.
 
 
+1 # Douglas Jack 2013-08-29 15:31
World War 2 was a completely preventable war. Lacking in WW2s prevention was the inability to publicly & openly dialogue/debate , then publish results. One group of imperialist nations railed against other imperialist nations. We were/are all hiding our murder from each other even as we continue it unabated to the modern time. The court of public opinion is more powerful than arms, so cowards hide in the shadows trying to manipulate economy outside of public scrutiny. https://sites.google.com/site/indigenecommunity/structure/both-sides-now-equal-time-recorded-dialogues

While 6 million Jews were killed in Europe before & during WW2, this same number were killed in British, USA, Canadian, Central & South-American residential schools, continued appropriation / destruction of 1st Nation lands, biosphere, sovereignty & livelihood. That small portion of Jews as leaders in corporate economic life & policy, who were equally audacious in appropriation of 1st Nation lands & destruction of biospheres & as leaders in the Military Industrial Complex, as well had their hand in genocide during this period.

Its time for all of us to re-evaluate our roots & our way forward. www.indigenecommunity.info
 
 
-4 # Rick Levy 2013-08-31 19:44
Jack, You've reached a new low which I didn't think possible even for you in blaming the Jews for in the destruction of the American Indians.
 
 
0 # Douglas Jack 2013-08-31 22:53
Rick, As a fellow Jew you may not be aware of the role of the Rothschild family & other bankers, some Jewish & some Goyim in financing of wars worldwide & in particular invasion, genocide, appropriations of 1st Nation lands (eg. Bank of International Settlement) throughout the Americas. Anyone alive on the planet is responsible for the systems in which we live as far as we participate in them & can make a difference. This film ‘Money Trail’ Rothschild Conspiracy International Banking Cartel & The Federal Reserve is one of a few available. Once you've looked at this, I'll provide you with more links. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzyOtl4MDC4

The Jews always formed a small minority of colonists but held a heightened per-capita role in the money, corporations, organization & decision-making , which make invasion, war & genocide possible. In my own family are roots of involvement in colonial economics going back to 1650 & 1790. I live in this tradition & context. jewish banking families in particular represent our Jewish community in their work then & now. Jewish banking families are a very small minority of the jewish people but in colonial system where we are all inter-dependent with money as a mediator / animator of events, we have to be cognizant & take responsibility for the nature of our system. As members of the Jewish faith, as a group with which we identify, as members & benefit from through business, livelihood & community, then we are called to take ownership.
 
 
-1 # Rick Levy 2013-09-12 20:21
What a fascinating pedigree. However, my ancestors, along with millions of other European Jews didn't arrive in the U.S. until the late 19th--early 20th Century. Even if only a part of your story is true about Colonial Jews, I thought that it was only Christians who engaged in charges of collective guilt. N.B. I refuse to hold my forbears responsible for what happened in America before they got there.

As for "Money Trail" any time I sense what sounds like a wacko conspiracy theory,I have to ask you if this comes with a copyn of the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion."
 
 
-1 # Douglas Jack 2013-09-01 08:05
Rick Levy, As a fellow Jew you may not be aware of Rothschild family & other bankers roles, some Jewish & some Goyim in financing of wars worldwide & in particular invasion, genocide, appropriations of 1st Nation lands (eg. Bank of International Settlement) throughout the Americas. Anyone alive on the planet is responsible for the systems in which we live as far as we participate in them & can make a difference. This film ‘Money Trail’ Rothschild Conspiracy International Banking Cartel & The Federal Reserve is one of a few available. Once you've looked at this, I'll provide you with more links. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzyOtl4MDC4
The Jews always formed a small minority of colonists but held a heightened per-capita role in the money, corporations, organization & decision-making , which make invasion, war & genocide possible. In my own family are roots of involvement in colonial economics going back to 1650 & 1790. I live in this tradition & context. jewish banking families in particular represent our Jewish community in their work then & now. Jewish banking families are a very small minority of the jewish people but in colonial system where we are all inter-dependent with money as a mediator / animator of events, we have to be cognizant & take responsibility for the nature of our system. As members of the Jewish faith, as a group with which we identify, as members & benefit from through business, livelihood & community, then we are called to take ownership.
 
 
+2 # 666 2013-08-31 07:59
Todd
for the readers who don't know, I assume you are referring to the US bombing and fire-bombing campaigns that targeted cities across Germany (and thus civilians).

Don't forget about Japan, where the civilian bombing & fire-bombing was at least as bad if not worse BEFORE we decided to drop atomic bombs on two cities just for fun.

And before any knee-jerk jumps in with the "we had to avoid an invasion" I strongly suggest you re-read your history and the wealth of declassified documents on this subject before clicking "reply".

In the 20th century, the US has long taken the lead in using WMDs for senseless reasons.
 
 
+44 # carp 2013-08-28 22:19
The cynic in me thinks that US foreign policy is really about building cruise missiles and F35 fighter jets. Planned obsolescence just for the no bid no oversight government contracts. I keep hearing the US needs to punish Assad. I think they just need a wartime economy.
 
 
+25 # wrknight 2013-08-29 07:55
I don't think I would call you cynical. Realistic, but not cynical.

We've been in a wartime economy for over 50 years. We've had a war on crime, a war on drugs, a war on pornography, a war on poverty, a war on terrorism, wars in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan and we've "helped" with wars and revolutions in virtually every country in the middle east, southeast asia and those south of our border. And what have all these wars accomplished? They have filled coffins, prisons and the pockets of those who profit from them. For those who profit, war is the best business to be in. It's all legal; and if you play your cards right, it can even be tax free.
 
 
-5 # James38 2013-08-30 09:11
Carp and wrknight, I agree with both of you almost completely.

I was astounded, after years of disgusting abuses, to see the US and allies, led by Obama, actually use military force in a more reasonable way in Lybia. The dictator was prevented from egregiously killing all opposition. The resulting mess at least allows the Libyans the chance to build a saner society, and I hope the world will continue to help them do so.

Hopefully the people of Syria will finally receive some useful help also, but we have waited so terribly long, and the situation is so much worse.

My first major political action was protesting the Vietnam war. I hope the US and the world can eliminate war, and spend all that money on education and saving the planet from Climate Change.
 
 
+28 # clarrie 2013-08-28 22:23
What is it about you (American) bastards, you bomb the shit out of places, indisciminately kill people ... oh, whoops, but you killed a couple of ... 'insurgents' as well, you use DU arms, apparently use phosphorous rounds in Iraq and you are apparently still using cluster mines, And YOU'RE fucking 'outraged'??
Here we go again into the rarefied atmosphere vortex of spin. One of the VERY sad parts about this is, most of your media-twisted population seem to accept this shit!
Un-be-fucking-l ievable!
 
 
-7 # Todd Williams 2013-08-29 09:49
And just what country are you from?
 
 
-3 # Todd Williams 2013-08-29 14:05
Oh, now I can't ask where a person is from without being criticized? Is that not a legitimate query? Maybe, just maybe, where a person was born might just contribute to their way of thinking. And that's not a legitimate line of questioning? Too bad my fellow liberals are so damn judgemental. Me thinks that some of them may be a little close-minded.
 
 
0 # James38 2013-08-30 09:03
Todd, I have to laugh. I try to be logical and honest, and at least start a line of thought that is being ignored, and I often get hammered for my trouble.

Welcome to the club.
 
 
0 # Todd Williams 2013-08-31 15:03
James, many liberals have quit contributing comments to RSN because of folks like clarrie who has gone beyond resonability to somewhere that I don't subscribe to. It's getting pretty weird when old school liberals are considered neocons. When you can't ask simple questions or request clarifications without garnering nasty comments, there's something gone awry on this website.
 
 
+1 # Todd Williams 2013-08-31 15:08
Oh red thumbs folks, you're telling me he didn't kill 100,000 civilians? This is acceptable to you folks? You're very, very misguided.
 
 
0 # Todd Williams 2013-08-31 15:09
Oh, now I can't ask for a source of information? You people aren't progressive, you're close minded and extremely opinionated.
 
 
+2 # Todd Williams 2013-08-31 15:12
Thank you, Mr. Boardman, for responding to my question. I'm not sure why people don't like me asking questions about soureces of info. I was trained as a journalist and have worked in that field for years. As such, I was taught to question sources. Apparently some people on RSN don't like any questions about their sources of information. Makes one very suspicious.
 
 
+3 # Moefwn 2013-08-29 12:53
Agreed. I invite you to come over here and help convince the rest of us.
 
 
+3 # cordleycoit 2013-08-28 22:45
We in the resistance are resisting working with cooperatives callectives etc. Where are the Quakers where are the scared as rabbits students. They really think that degree is worth shit, think again. There 's no cubicle with your name on it and you'll never pay off that bribe you ypu paid the University. All your good for is paying the vig. No disturbing memos about peace in your FBI progress report. I geuss that's where the Left went.
 
 
+21 # grandma lynn 2013-08-29 03:54
I hear your sadness. "Where are... where are... where are?" They've gone to cell phones everyone (to paraphrase the old anti-war song). People on the planet with cell phones in their hands can't see beyond their palms.
 
 
+44 # m... 2013-08-28 22:48
''To What End Do We Kill?''

Corporate Profits....???
 
 
+43 # Dave45 2013-08-28 23:00
Here we go again. Another diplomatically challenged president in search of a politically macho image. Will any American president ever learn that achieving peace takes more courage than making war? Once again the foolish and uncritical leaders of the American military are about to make a bad situation worse in order to prove their point that it was a bad situation. Under what rocks do we keep finding these guys?
 
 
+15 # wrknight 2013-08-29 08:00
I don't know about diplomatically challenged, but he's certainly intellectually and morally challenged.
 
 
+5 # Cougar27 2013-08-29 15:16
Oh, wrknight, watch what you're saying. You will provoke Eldon into giving you a lecture on Obama's academic credentials (two Ivy League schools, editor of the Harvard Law Review, constitutional law professor). Then Eldon will require you to match those achievements before he allows you to criticize the great man. He might even choose to infer (by some occult power known only to him) that you are from the South and therefore a racist.

I know that sounds absurd, but I've seen it happen on this very web site.
 
 
-7 # Eldon J. Bloedorn 2013-08-30 22:39
TO:Cougar27
Take a mental bath. Control your hatred. Get a job at McDonalds. Don't forget your family reunion and which at your request will be held @ the L.A. County Zoo. A little humor.
 
 
+16 # wolflady52 2013-08-29 11:13
Jimmy Carter knew this. And was ridiculed into history.
 
 
-17 # James38 2013-08-28 23:23
Oh boy, here we go.

For starters, I am not pro-war, but I am very against the massacre of Syrians by Assad. As I understand it, Assad started the violence by attacking with deadly force peaceful demonstrations demanding fair and honest elections. PEACEFUL demonstrations. That is what started the violence. We should have helped the people of Syria right then, telling Assad that we would simply not allow or condone by inaction such crimes against humanity.

Instead, we "respected his sovereignty". A dictator has no "sovereignty". That should be the first principle of world civilization. Free and just elections, or no government exists. And dictatorship of religious faith is just as bad as any other kind. Telling people they must all follow one religious belief set is no different than telling them they have to follow the rule of one man because he has the guns.

Boardman makes one big mistake when he compares the Syrian situation with the "War of Lies" that War Criminals George W Bush, Dick Cheney, Condoleezza Rice, Paul Wolfowitz, and the rest of them started in Iraq. That was a total unjustifiable disaster.

The Syrian situation is totally different. Assad is committing mass murder on a level unseen for a long time, and equal to any atrocity of the past in its needless horror.

We did not have to wait for Assad to use Chemical weapons (again). His atrocities from the first killings of peaceful protesters were enough to merit world action.
 
 
+21 # wrknight 2013-08-29 07:33
So how about the massacre of Syrians by Assad's opponents? I guess that's OK.

And if you think that Assad started it all, you haven't been paying attention.

And by the way, we helped in Iraq, we helped in Afghanistan, we helped in Egypt, we helped in Libya and where haven't we helped? We've even helped overthrow democratically elected governments. And see what all our help has accomplished.
 
 
-13 # Todd Williams 2013-08-29 09:51
I think James 38 has been paying attention. I find his comments insightful unlike much of the rhetoric-bound posts on this thread.
 
 
-9 # Todd Williams 2013-08-29 14:11
Who said any massacre by Assad's opponents was okay? I don't think James even implied that it was okay. Mass killings by anybody including Assad, the rebels, the US, Hezbolla or anyone for that matter is very wrong.
 
 
+2 # Douglas Jack 2013-08-29 16:55
Todd, James is a 'sabre-rattler' > When the USA, Canada, NATO & Israel are arming dissidents & mercenaries who by the declaration of UN Human Rights investigator Carla Del Ponte "according to what we have established so far, it is at the moment, opponents of the regime who are using Sarin gas" , then James38's condemnation of the Syrian government is inappropriate. James offers no apology. Neither do USA, Canada, NATO & Israeli sabre-rattlers threatening carpet bombing of Syrian people offer apology nor war-reparations . The Syrian people according to a NATO poll are 70% in support of the Assad government. http://www.worldtribune.com/2013/05/31/nato-data-assad-winning-the-war-for-syrians-hearts-and-minds/

What's happening is a policy of destabilization of 80 Middle-east, Latin-American, Asian & other governments for the purposes of our hegemony including the sought after Greater Israel from the Euphrates to the Nile, desire to control the oil. This is such an old & destructive deception of colonialism. www.indigenecommunity.info
 
 
-3 # James38 2013-08-30 08:18
Douglas, I am not a "sabre-rattler" . I am not recommending invasion of Syria. I do recommend, as common decency and global responsibility seems to demand, that we (US and UN and all countries that respect human life and rights) simply use our expensive war machine to reduce Assad's military might to a level where he is forced to deal somewhat equally with the citizens of his country, instead of massacring them wantonly.

You state "Neither do USA, Canada, NATO & Israeli sabre-rattlers threatening carpet bombing of Syrian people..."

What in the hell are you talking about? Who is recommending "carpet bombing"? All I see is talk about taking out specific military targets to cut back Assad's murderous capacity. It will be easier to do that in Syria without killing civilians, since as far as I know Assad has not used Qaddafi's tactic of hiding his assets in civilian areas.

Your blatant exaggeration, using "carpet bombing" as a propaganda device, reminds my of your "Ignorance Rattling" in regards to nuclear power.

Your willingness to use emotionally loaded accusations and obfuscations does not contribute anything to a reasonable dialog.

I am trying to find realistic solutions to a humanitarian disaster. What are you doing?
 
 
+1 # Douglas Jack 2013-08-30 12:47
James, In reports here by many researchers, you'll notice a pattern of evidence stating that; USA, Canada, NATO, Israel & Saudi-Arabia are the source of the Sarin gas used & financing foreign (over 50%) mercenaries using Sarin according to Carla Del Ponte, UN Weapons Inspector for Syria. Other web-links precise according to a NATO financed poll that; Assad is supported by 70% of the population.

Why are you calling for supposed 'surgical' strikes within Syria?

Did you mean surgical strikes & the inevitable 'collateral-dam age' in the USA, Canada, NATO countries, Israel & Saudi-Arabia. Given the evidence where is the disconnect/double-standard?

"Carpet-bombing" is in reference to your Coalition-of-th e-Willing supposed surgical-bombin g & droning of Vietnam, Cambodia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Pakistan, Yemen, actions in Venezuela etc worldwide. I don't hear you calling for War-Reparations for the destruction & nuclear contamination your people have & are spreading. Are you proud of your government's language & actions? Research your 'indigenous' ancestry.
https://sites.google.com/site/indigenecommunity/design/1-indigenous-welcome-orchard-food-production-efficiencies

If we had your Nuclear Power plants & Thorium reactors distributed throughout the 80 countries which your coalition are trying to destabilize, then we could have lots more nuclear war. Are you a supporter of the violent spread of Enhanced (aka: depleted) Uranium? Why not spread it in your own backyard?
 
 
-1 # James38 2013-08-30 19:05
Douglas, the whole poison gas/sarin/whate ver has become a red herring. It is not the real issue, which is the needless wanton killing of Syrian civilians by Assad.

The US ignored the beginning of the violence and is continuing to ignore the total madness of all the killing in Syria, instead focusing on the use of Poison gas - which is of course horrible no matter who uses it - but again is not the basic issue.

The Carpet Bombing of Cambodia and Vietnam was a crazed horror - but you stick in the word "droning", which had not been invented then.

You have many good points, and seem genuinely concerned, and then you make hash of your arguments by lapsing into propaganda.

Your comment about "your Nuclear Power plants & Thorium reactors distributed throughout the 80 countries which your coalition are trying to destabilize, then we could have lots more nuclear war" is just raving nuts.

And then you say "Are you a supporter of the violent spread of Enhanced (aka: depleted) Uranium" which is truly dumb. Depleted Uranium has very low radioactivity. Yes it is toxic, and its use is stupid because it is just another exaggerated war machine crazyness, but making up more exaggerations does not help your cause.

Continued
 
 
+2 # wrknight 2013-08-31 19:20
James, you still have not proven that Assad or his forces deployed the sarin gas. Nor have you acknowledged that the killing is not one sided. Nor have you acknowledged that the rebel forces do not have the support of the majority of Syrian citizens. Nor have you acknowledged that sectarian violence has been a way of life in Syria and the rest of the middle east since long before Assad was even born.

You simply parrot the propaganda that Assad is evil and is responsible for the evil killing of civilians (gas or otherwise) and therefore must be taught a lesson by American forces in the name of humanity. But I don't see how us killing more people can be considered an act of humanity.

Furthermore, I don't see where the Syrian conflict is any of my damned business or yours.
And if all we want out of this is their frickin' oil, then let's be honest about the whole business and stop the bullshit.
 
 
-2 # James38 2013-08-30 19:05
Concluding

For the record, LFTR (Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactors) are a totally different type of Nuclear Reactor. They can not be used for weapons proliferation, and they can not explode. They are totally fail-safe, and we need them to replace coalm oil, and natural gas for electric generation.
 
 
0 # Douglas Jack 2013-08-30 21:08
James, Your comments are full of calls for attacks on Syria. You base your opinion on corporate propaganda which is full of lies for purposes of military-action , hegemonic-contr ol & resource-approp riation. When I offered indicators for the Sarin lies which are the declared official obsession, then you change the subject & replace this with supposed "wanton-killing ". This false misinformed excuse is of course the same used simultaneously for the invasion of Iraq. This points out to me that you probably don't source & vett your information 'dialectically' from 'both-sides' so as to be able to contrast & compare content, process & logics used for consistency.

You must begin by vetting your information & sources from both-sides in order to gain a clue as to consistency. One doesn't start with one-sided research & then call as you do for targeted missile strikes because it speaks total ignorance, arrogance & downright idiocy. RSN commenters such as Activista provide excellent web-links from the other-side.

Even with such sources, regular RSN commenters don't call for missile strikes going the other way, because we hold conservative modest self-doubt continually at hand as well as a commitment to non-violent communicative interaction with both friends & perceived enemies.

One can't mention strikes today without recognizing the horror & inaccuracy of drones. https://sites.google.com/site/indigenecommunity/structure/both-sides-now-equal-time-recorded-dialogues
 
 
0 # Douglas Jack 2013-08-30 21:37
Cont'd, James, Point-by-point response. Radioactivity impacts on human health is still a very poorly understood & intentionally obfuscated (intentionally ignored & irresponsibly structured) area of statistical gathering. I studied with Dr. Rosalie Bertell, bio-statisticia n back in the 1970s, to whom I'm grateful for her sharing about the importance of intimate health statistics such as only families can gather upon their members encouraged by the medical profession. Such compilation & gathering doesn't exist in our present system making all other calculations & compilations error-filled in both quality & quantity. Industrial obfuscation is fierce & uncalled for.

Enhanced (aka depleted) uranium is not something you or I would spread in our backyards largely because it represents random inseparable levels of complex synthetic (human produced) mixes of radio-active substances generated in intense atomic reactions, which are in no way a part of what is referred to as 'ecological-his tory' (natural-histor y of humans & other close animal species in a meaningful time-frame & environmental conditions of our evolution).

In all the responses you have given, you never mention that; Liquid Floride Thorium Reactors rely upon radio-active fuel produced through conventional reactors. LFTR don't explode but they can & do contaminate & proliferate on a massive & expensive scale. http://nuclearfreeplanet.org/thorium-not-green-not-viable-and-not-likely-oliver-tickell-june-2012-.html
 
 
-3 # James38 2013-08-30 08:06
Thanks for the support Todd. I am afraid the majority of readers here do not want to think beyond their blinkers.

They seem to equate a desire for peace with a sort of isolationism that I find distasteful and nastily reminiscent of the isolationism that nearly left England at the mercy of the Germans.
 
 
+12 # wolflady52 2013-08-29 11:51
I look at your last sentence...."wo rld action." Unless we have the UN behind any action, along with other governments, our reaction to this will just be the US playing policeman based on politics.
 
 
+7 # WBoardman 2013-08-29 13:55
Enforcing a no government but freely elected ones
is a pleasant thought, but hardly an enforceable policy.

It's too soon to know fully whether comparing
Syria with Iraq is a "mistake," but that would be good.

One difference is that we brought chaos to Iraq,
in Syria chaos is well established.

One similarity is the demonization of the leaders,
another is the hubris that allows our leaders
to think they can fix anything, much less fix things
that are generations or millennia old.

The assumption that Assad is committing mass murder
may or may not turn out to be as much of a shibboleth
as Saddam Hussein's WMDs. The rush to condemn based
on little or no evidence is the same as Iraq.

The presumption that America has a duty and/or a right
to attack anyone is Syria is part of the national problem.
Also an expression of hypocrisy.
The Egyptian army just killed more of its citizens
than Assad killed Syrians (IF he did it) --
so why the very different political response?
They were both killing presumed jihadis (or jihadi wannabes)
so why isn;t the government cheering for both massacres?
Are chemical weapons truly a game-changer --
or is that just another hot button for manipulating
the credulous and the war-hungry?
 
 
+3 # Activista 2013-08-30 01:42
"One difference is that we brought chaos to Iraq,
in Syria chaos is well established?? "
Syria has/had for its size much more complex ethnic population/minorities.
Would like to know what happened to million refugees (mostly middle class Sunni) from "liberated" Baghdad to Syria.
1.5 million Iraqis went to Syria since 2003 US-led invasion ...
 
 
-2 # James38 2013-08-30 08:59
Interesting question, Activista. What an awful situation they must be in now.

Syria had a chance to make real progress, had Assad been human enough to hold real elections when the protests started. Instead, he showed himself to be nothing but a power crazed madman. It is very strange to attempt to understand the motivations of such a person - who is willing to kill thousands for his private desires - and expects the world to look the other way.

Even with the best possible outcome from this point, it will take fifty years or more to rebuild Syria, and nothing can replace the lives lost.

Boardman says "Enforcing a no government but freely elected ones is a pleasant thought, but hardly an enforceable policy."

But if we consider that "hardly an enforceable policy", what is the real purpose of the UN, or of human society?

I think we need very serious reconsideration of our global situation. We are all under threat of disaster due to climate change. We need to unite and become civilized in a real sense - for the first time in human history.
 
 
-3 # James38 2013-08-30 08:32
Thank You for the reply, Mr Boardman. I agree about the chaos.

I do not know how you justify this:

"One similarity is the demonization of the leaders"
While it was difficult to say anything bad about Saddam that wasn't true, the real lies about Iraq were the invention of WMD.

Saddam and his sons were grotesque parodies of human, but the time to remove him was at the end of the first Gulf War, when GHWB encouraged the opposition to Saddam to rise up, and then turned his back on them while they were massacred. That was just as disgusting as the war GWB started, and GWB’s war failed in significant part because the opposition had already been decimated. By the time GWB sent in his invasion, any surviving former supporters had good reason to distrust and hate the USA.

There is no need to demonize Assad. He is doing a fine job on himself.

But especially how do you justify this:
"The assumption that Assad is committing mass murder may or may not turn out to be as much of a shibboleth as Saddam Hussein's WMDs. The rush to condemn based on little or no evidence is the same as Iraq."

Every investigative group including the UN told us and the world well in advance that there were no WMD's in Iraq.

The demolition of Syrian cities and villages, and the deaths of huge numbers of civilians in Syria is horribly obvious, and has been continuing obviously for several years. The situations are not even remotely similar.

Continued
 
 
-3 # James38 2013-08-30 08:50
Concluding

Then you make this statement, which I would seriously like to see you explain:

"The Egyptian army just killed more of its citizens than Assad killed Syrians (IF he did it) -- " IF HE DID IT???

That is absurd. The Egyptian army killed a few hundred people. While it was an exaggerated use of force, it hardly compares to the tens of thousands of Syrians massacred by Assad. Also, whatever justification the Egyptian army had for its actions, they stopped with that action. They are not bombing and shelling half the cities in Egypt.

Also, Morsi was elected on a fluke. Had the opposition held a primary and run one candidate, Morsi would have lost. He did not represent the majority of Egyptians.
Most Egyptians support the removal of Morsi.

As to Chemical Weapons being a "game changer", I have long said that the countries of the world should have stepped in as soon as Assad started his massacre of peaceful protesters. Instead, we have waited for years while terrorist groups have complicated the situation and multiple thousands of civilians have been killed. It is an absurd excuse to say, because now chemical weapons are being added to the tools of massacre, that we finally have a reason to intervene. Common decency and respect for human rights demanded we intervene far sooner.

Had we done so, many lives could have been saved, and the society would have been less devastated and confused.
 
 
0 # Douglas Jack 2013-08-31 15:19
William Boardman, Political elections are a huge delusion controlled by the Finance-Media-M ilitary-Industr ial-Legislative -Terror-Complex . There can be no 'free elections' unless there is Economic Democracy. Humanity's 'indigenous' (Latin 'self-generatin g') ancestors cultivated Economic Democracy as the foundation upon which Political Democracy is founded. Alliance building & election cycles take massive wealth to communicate consistent government-buil ding policy.

In colonial society, industrial & commercial corporations, as the only organized entities, fund whomever they choose during election cycles. Such funding is impossible to control. Humanity's indigenous ancestors living in dense cities (not what you were taught about the refugees colonials created who were forced to flee to the mountains) cultivated universal multistakeholde r progressive ownership in the Production Societies of their multihome dwellings within the Domestic Economy as well as in subsidiary Industrial & Commercial economy. Until we recognize the role of finance & ownership within election cycles, we are only working on the surface. Popular finance & ownership is the foundation of Economic Democracy. https://sites.google.com/site/indigenecommunity/relational-economy/8-economic-democracy
 
 
-9 # Todd Williams 2013-08-29 14:08
Yes James. And besides the chem weapons, he's killed over 100,000 of his own people with conventional weapons. And I'm not saying we should intervene. I'm just pointing out that the man is a real bastard. i wouldn't lose any sleep if he were put down like a rabid dog.
 
 
+10 # Dennyc 2013-08-29 14:49
Your response reads exactly like your response to Bunnypants Bush's war against the Iraqis in 2003. "...mass murder on a level unseen for a long time...equal to any atrocity of the past in its needless horror."
Hmmm, guess one would have to query the dead Iraqi and Afghan people for the truth of the matter 'cause the only ones I see committing mass murder are the Americans and the British.
 
 
+22 # Smiley 2013-08-28 23:36
What we know is that 12 members of the Syrian rebel forces were arrested in May in Turkey. The rebels possessed 4.5 pounds of Sarin, the neurotoxin gas that allegedly has been used in the recent attack. What we also know is that United Nations Human Rights investigator Carla Del Ponte declared in May: “according to what we have established so far, it is at the moment opponents of the regime who are using sarin gas”.
 
 
-4 # Todd Williams 2013-08-29 09:52
Your source for this please?
 
 
+14 # Activista 2013-08-29 11:28
Please google/search:
Syrian rebel forces were arrested in May in Turkey
you will get dozen references - even from Reuters (war propaganda machine)
 
 
+1 # Todd Williams 2013-08-29 12:03
Thank you for your reply.
 
 
+9 # Deboldt 2013-08-28 23:40
It has always struck me as passing strange that whenever a democratically elected leader does something against our perceived national interest he usually is dispatched toot sweet. When one of our own puppets or ex puppets gets in trouble with his people we throw up our hands and cry "What to do? My god! What to do?!"
 
 
+11 # jojo5056 2013-08-29 05:01
"unpleasant reality in Syria is that there are no good choices, for the U.S. or much of anyone else" Yes there is---get America and phoney Semites out of the middle East.
Evil America is putting it mildly.
 
 
+16 # Citizen Mike 2013-08-29 05:52
The alternatives in Syria seem to be tyranny with stability or complete chaos. It's a lose-lose situation and getting involved does nobody good except the military contractors, our last economically viable production industry based in the USA.

Our economic system at its present stage of evolution requires a longterm profit center to replace the vanished Cold War.That's the deal,period.
 
 
-1 # 666 2013-08-31 08:16
but Mike, isn't that our own alternative too? at least according to those in govt who see any form of "democracy" as mob rule and chaos and who, to protect us from ourselves, keep moving us closer and closer to authoritarian tyranny. we ignored syria when it was a russian satellite run by assad's authoritarian and brutal father; now it's in the hands of an incompetent bumbler (junior) who mostly caused his own problems.
 
 
+18 # wrknight 2013-08-29 07:23
Old Chinese proverb: Man who gets in middle of pissing contest gets pissed on.
 
 
-3 # Todd Williams 2013-08-29 09:53
That comment, I like.
 
 
+18 # walt 2013-08-29 07:36
This whole issue centers around the same neocon lobby that has already prompted the USA to invade Iraq and again tried for Iran. They would keep the USA in permanent war and losing our sons and daughters while spending tax dollars badly needed by our own people. That is criminal, but shows how much money is pumped into so many of our elected peoples' pockets.

How about Israel, Jordan, Turkey, and Saudi Arabia sending peace-keep troops to establish order? After all, it's their neighborhood!
 
 
-4 # Todd Williams 2013-08-29 09:54
I tend to agree with you, walt. But specifically, who are in this "neocon lobby?"
 
 
+7 # WBoardman 2013-08-29 14:01
For the neocons or whatever they should be called,
start with the Project for a New American Century --

http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm

And ask yourself as you probe deeper, was 9/11
the "new Pearl Harbor" so deeply desired?
It certainly played out that way.
 
 
0 # Douglas Jack 2013-08-30 14:00
Walt, What kool-aid brand do you quench your thirst with? By our definition, they are sitting on our oil fields as well as the land of our biblical manifest-destin y! The Finance-Media-M ilitary-Industr ial-Legislative -Terror-Complex is already financing foreign (more than 50%) mercenaries, supplying them with Sarin gas, bombs, arms, munitions etc in Syria to terrorize the population. They're killing, as you suggest, through Israel, Jordan, Turkey & Saudi-Arabian mediated mercenaries & arms dealers. What more could you ask for? http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2013_08_30/Syrian-rebels-take-responsibility-for-the-chemical-attack-admitting-the-weapons-were-provided-by-Saudis-1203/?from=menu
 
 
+11 # reiverpacific 2013-08-29 09:25
Another example of those in power in the US AND the UK not learning from their own parts in the history of the Middle East.
Cameron/Clegg are champing at their bits to jump into Syria even more than the hawk faction in US, the theory being (and I'm making assumptions here based on history, like Thatcher reign of error and terror being rescued by her Falklands adventure) that a bit of slaughter will shore up their shaky deeply unpopular coalition.
From the blowback of the joint 1953 coup of Mossadeguh in Iran to the more recent 'silencing' of Hussein in Iraq after he cut loose from being 'our bad guy', the results were chaos, unleashing the potentially warring factions they kept in check either by popular rule or by ruthless control including gassing in Hussein's case. In both, the countries were better places for their citizens, especially women, than since their removal by the same forces who now want to dive into Syria and stir up what is already a hornet's nest, to erupt and sting well beyond it's immediate location. Peripheral factions are watching carefully from the sidelines, including Russia and Iran, the latter involvement which would trigger LIKUD's excuse to attack it with inevitable US support and deeper involvement.
A couple of conservative factions in the US are threatening articles of impeachment if Obama intervenes in any way.
I tend to suspect ANY motives from today's US right but one of the factions is a group of Black Republicans.
NO WAR, NO EXCUSES!
 
 
+6 # jwb110 2013-08-29 09:51
Of all the things that the US has exported in its history the worst has been Democracy.
 
 
+8 # reiverpacific 2013-08-29 13:50
Quoting jwb110:
Of all the things that the US has exported in its history the worst has been Democracy.

Well, it's never come even close to Democracy since the Great Iroquois Confedreracy.
The US's best exports have been Jazz and Blues -they should have stopped at that!
 
 
+14 # wolflady52 2013-08-29 11:11
We kill people who kill people, to show that killing people is wrong. Good common sense there.

What amazes me about most of these "interventions" is we end up fighting the very groups we armed and supported before things went horribly wrong. And our complicity in the use of chemical weapons used in Iraq (before we decided Saddam wasn't playing our game anymore) ....really puts us in "the pot calling the kettle black" category. Not to mention our drone policy. If I really believed American intervention was about supporting democracy, I might feel differently. But as we review our Iraq debacle, and many others, we know other motivations are at work. I hope we take a good hard look at this situation before we make another serious mistake we can't pay for.
 
 
+12 # Oscar 2013-08-29 12:25
And Obama will pay as well: if it is a short intervention, it will give him a short bust of popularity and then will leave the office in disgrace, just as Bush. If it is a long intervention, the popularity will also erode because we will be bogged down in a conflict without end in sight, again like Bush, may be more because he came to the presidency as a prince of peace.
 

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