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Lakoff and Wehling write: "Mitt Romney responded to the recent Cairo events with an apology frame. America, he said, must never apologize for its values."

'Mitt Romney used the occasion of the Cairo and Libyan events to attack President Obama.'  (photo: Carlos Osorio/AP)
'Mitt Romney used the occasion of the Cairo and Libyan events to attack President Obama.' (photo: Carlos Osorio/AP)


Romney's Apology Frame

By George Lakoff, Elisabeth Wehling, Reader Supported News

17 September 12

 

itt Romney responded to the recent Cairo events with an apology frame. America, he said, must never apologize for its values, and he claimed that the Obama administration was apologizing when it pointed out a moral constraint on free speech.

One of the things Americans are taught in grammar school about free speech is that there are legal and moral limits to it. The example usually given is: "You don't shout 'Fire!' in a crowded theater." There are legal and moral constraints on incendiary free speech.

In the case of the recent anti-Islamic video, The Innocence of Islam, which was certainly incendiary, the legal framework doesn't apply. However, the moral framework does. The video not only violated the American principle of freedom of religion, it was intended to incite violence in the Islamic world. It did, and the chain of causation led to the killing of our Ambassador to Libya and three other Americans, as well as the death of at least two demonstrators in Tunisia, three in Sudan and one in Lebanon.

The American legal principle of free speech does not cover such cases of immoral incendiary speech. We have no laws against them. Indeed, our laws protect even immoral cases like the present one, lest too tight a line be drawn around our freedom of speech.

The Cairo embassy, President Obama, and Secretary of State Clinton responded appropriately to the events. They rightly condemned the content and intention of the video on the grounds of the American principle of freedom of religion, and they rightly condemned the violence against our embassies. Clinton drew a clear line between verbal and physical attacks, saying that violence is never sanctioned as a response to verbal attack. And she pointed out that, in America, freedom of speech is so fundamental a value that it extends even to such immoral cases.

Mitt Romney used the occasion of the Cairo and Libyan events to attack President Obama and the Administration for what he called "apologizing" for American principles and thereby showing weakness. Other conservatives, especially Fox News commentators, backed him up and adopted the apology frame. Here is the sequence of events that led to Romney's first use of that frame.

In response to the video before any violence occurred, the Cairo embassy tried to head off violence with the following statement:

The Embassy of the United States in Cairo condemns the continuing efforts by misguided individuals to hurt the religious feelings of Muslims -- as we condemn efforts to offend believers of all religions. Today, the 11th anniversary of the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on the United States, Americans are honoring our patriots and those who serve our nation as the fitting response to the enemies of democracy. Respect for religious beliefs is a cornerstone of American democracy. We firmly reject the actions by those who abuse the universal right of free speech to hurt the religious beliefs of others.

After the violent breach of the embassy and before the events in Libya, the Cairo embassy released the following on Twitter: "This morning's condemnation (issued before the protest began) still stands. As does our condemnation of unjustified breach of the Embassy."

In short, to head off the violence, the embassy issued a condemnation of the video and of any degradation of religious beliefs, upholding "the universal right of free speech." After the violence, the embassy confirmed the statement and condemned the violence.

Romney framed this embassy statement as "the White House response," accusing Obama and the administration of "apologizing for American values." He called this "a disgraceful statement on the part of our administration to apologize for American values," and said that the embassy statement was "apologizing for the right of free speech."

Here is Romney's logic: The embassy -- and the President -- should have defended the video absolutely on the basis of the American principle of free speech, despite its content and intention, instead of condemning the video with a defense of the American principle of freedom of religion -- even though the content and intention of the video led not only to four American deaths, but also the deaths of protestors and injuries of both protestors and security personnel. In Romney's frame, anything short of a complete defense of the video on free speech grounds is an "apology."

For Romney, this framing is anything but new, given his 2010 book, No Apology: The Case for American Greatness, which argues at length that greatness is constituted not through diplomacy but through "strong leadership" that amounts to military and economic intimidation. Romney used the exact same framing when he argued that Obama's initial diplomacy tour in 2009 was "an apology tour."

Later on, when the facts about Cairo and Libya came in, Romney switched to the administration's position. But his apology rhetoric is still to be found on Fox News and conservative blog comments. The apology frame is not going away because it fits a general conservative frame for international policy.

For Romney and other conservatives, diplomacy is more often than not a sign of weakness. Anything short of America imposing its will, its interests, and its values on other nations is a "failure of leadership" and weakness. Moreover, the Christian right has been waging an attack on Islam in general, stereotyping it unfairly in extremist terms. To defend the anti-Islamic video as "free speech" without condemning its content is implicitly supporting the right-wing stereotyping of Islam.

The media on the whole has rightly criticized Romney as jumping the gun and using a national tragedy for political purposes.

But Romney's remarks are even worse than that. They violate what legal philosopher Jeremy Waldron has called democracy's "affirmative responsibility for protecting the atmosphere of mutual respect against certain forms of vicious attack."

Romney's use of "apology" for diplomacy will continue to surface. Here is what Romney said in his book: [Obama] "has apologized for what he deems to be American arrogance, dismissiveness, and derision; for dictating solutions, for acting unilaterally, and for acting without regard for others; for treating other countries as mere proxies, for unjustly interfering in the internal affairs of other nations, and for feeding anti-Muslim sentiments; for committing torture, for dragging our feet on global warming and for selectively promoting democracy." A great many other Americans agree with Obama that such an approach to foreign policy must end because it does not lead to peace.

There is a clear division here on what American foreign policy should be. America, Romney suggests, should continue those behaviors that characterize a foreign policy based on force and intimidation as opposed to treating other nations with the respect required for effective diplomacy and the protection of human life around the world.

The Heritage Foundation, when discussing President Obama's diplomacy efforts in 2009, used the apology frame that also Romney adopted: "Apologizing for your own country projects an image of weakness before both allies and enemies. It sends a very clear signal that the U.S. is to blame for some major developments on the world stage. This can be used to the advantage of those who wish to undermine American global leadership."

Romney's statement has to be seen in this larger context. It does not merely reflect Romney's attitude and it is not just about this political moment. The frame he chose reflects a core belief among extreme conservatives about foreign policy, diplomacy, and America's role in the world.

Romney's framing of the events goes far beyond an attempt to score political points in the midst of a national tragedy. It is intended to strengthen extreme conservative beliefs about American foreign policy. Why no apologies? Because America, operating under conservative ideology, is seen as the world's ultimate legitimate authority, whose actions define what is right. Therefore, there should be no need to apologize for doing what is right, and since that authority must be maintained, it would be wrong to apologize even if an apology were warranted. Even operating diplomatically, with real mutual respect, would be showing weakness by giving up the authority that should be maintained in all negotiations. That is a view that poses a real danger to peace both in the US and abroad.


Reader Supported News is the Publication of Origin for this work. Permission to republish is freely granted with credit and a link back to Reader Supported News.

 

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+50 # pernsey 2012-09-17 19:22
Mitt is such an ass...I knew this apology crap was going to be the next right wing talking point. Its ridiculous, almost as ridiculous as Mitt himself.

Fox News is such a right wing spin machine, if they werent propping Mitt up he wouldnt have a leg to stand on. His points are idiotic, his facts are lies, and his moral compass is on zero. Hes a bully.

The right wing are such sheeple, its not true just because the propaganda machine of Fox, had all their opinion show hosts repeat it. Mitt would be an absolute total horror as a president, and he is a disaster as a human.

He might have money but it cant buy ya morality, character, or a personality.
 
 
+31 # genierae 2012-09-18 06:42
"What does it profit a man to gain the whole world, if he loses his own soul?"

Mitt Romney is a pauper in all the ways that count, pernsey, you're so right about that.
 
 
+25 # Barbara K 2012-09-18 08:12
pernsey: You said it all so well. He sold his soul to the devil long ago when he began screwing people out of their jobs, livelihoods, and money. Now he wants to do the same to the rest of us.

OBAMA/BIDEN 2012 For the 100% of Americans.
 
 
+1 # vicnada 2012-09-19 12:40
Quoting pernsey:
Mitt would be an absolute total horror as a president, and he is a disaster as a human.

He might have money but it cant buy ya morality, character, or a personality.

Very prescient article and commentary in view of leaked video of Mitt's May talk to his fellow money bags. Ironically, his only hope now is to APOLOGIZE. But hollow man he is, who would believe him?. He's history. Good riddance, gilded white trash.
 
 
+11 # D12345 2012-09-17 20:01
Maybe Obama's drone attacks in 5 countries have a little something to do with resentments in the Middle East.
 
 
+2 # Texas Aggie 2012-09-18 09:05
But, but, but... Drone attacks aren't apologies. And Obama is apologizing. That couldn't be the problem, could it?
 
 
+11 # Pikewich 2012-09-18 09:05
Maybe the US government's continuous intervention around the world to "protect our interests" (read :anything you have that we want) throughout it's history has something to do with the current middle eastern blow back.
 
 
+3 # bmiluski 2012-09-18 10:54
Umm, wasn't it a midddle-eastern country (Lybia) that wanted us to come to the aid of the rebels and now isn't there another middle-eastern country denouncing us for not coming to the aid of the rebels (Syria)?
 
 
+31 # Ray Kondrasuk 2012-09-17 20:03
Logical, clear, well-reasoned.. . and therefore, totally mute to the ears of the right.
 
 
+19 # Archie1954 2012-09-17 20:10
But why do American values have to include murdering so may people in other parts of the world? Don't you think that values that include such bloodthirsty requirements should be apologized for?
 
 
0 # KittatinyHawk 2012-09-18 12:20
There phony faiths consider anyone not rebaptized a Heathen that means us as well.

But one must be a Heathen to recognize one so their point is mute.
 
 
-2 # bmiluski 2012-09-19 09:47
Lets get something straight....kil ling people is not an American value, nor a European, Asian, Middle-Eastern value. It is the value of the male human species. If you don't believe me then just watch how little boys play.
 
 
+21 # ganymede 2012-09-17 20:15
Thanks Elisabeth and George, I don't what it's going to take for rightwingers to get some humanity and commonsense. This mught help if but they could only read this, but, alas, they won't. We just have to keep plugging away and insure that the Democrats have a clean sweep this November.
 
 
+27 # Maxwell 2012-09-17 20:15
Another bull's eye for Mr. Lakoff.

I wondered for years how conservative Republicans can keep so much of the American electorate on their side when they keep coming up with such preposterous ideological jabber year after year and election cycle after election cycle.

After I started reading Lakoff's books I learned that it's because of "Framing". The Republicans, who own so much of the US media, can take any issue out there and Frame it however they want. They use framing very effectively much of the time. (I can't say they use it "cleverly" because it doesn't take that much cleverness to manipulate the media when you own most of it.)

Republicans are like the guy who asks you "when did you stop kicking your dog?" There's no good answer to that question. The question itself dictates an response that you either did or still do kick your dog. It's not a legitimate question for anyone who's never kicked his or her dog. The question itself doesn't allow for that truth to come through.

Romney's "apology framing" of this matter was an obvious and childish political ploy meant to enhance his image and to make Obama appear weak and unpatriotic. Not only did Romney's statements backfire on him, but they're also fanning the flames of hatred in the US and in the Muslim world.
 
 
+26 # angelfish 2012-09-17 20:22
Romney is an "Armchair Warrior" who is, in my opinion, too dumb to live! HOW did he manage to survive this long and be this successful with such a teeny, tiny, puny little brain? He claims that "47 % of President Obama's followers pay no taxes". Even if it were true, did it ever occur to him that the reason WHY they pay no taxes is because they don't MAKE enough money to BE taxed? He thinks that "Middle Class" families in this Country make between "$100,000.00 and $250.000.00 dollars per year! He must BE from the Planet Kolb if he truly believes that one! Over and over again he proves himself to be so far out of touch with, not only reality but with regular, working Americans. Accusing the President of "Apologizing" for America is something that they have spun out of desperation because they see that they CAN fool some of the people some of the time. Thank God they can't fool All the People All of the time!
 
 
+3 # KittatinyHawk 2012-09-18 12:22
ArmChair Warrior...the Rethugs are the Armchairs Didn't even recognize this fact when Clint was talking to them
 
 
-16 # phantomww 2012-09-18 12:22
You libs are really funny. So you think that Romney thinks that the middle class is someone who makes between 100k and 250k and that he must be from the planet Kolb.
Let me walk you through this so you don't get lost. There are 3 basic groups, poor, middle class and rich. Now we all know that Obama and libs want to tax the rich and not the middle class. So what is the point at which Obama and you libs think a person is rich? Wait for it! Here it comes!

Obama wants to raise the taxes on EVERYONE who makes more than 250k!

So that would make them rich. Thus under 250k would be the middle class. So tell me just who is the person who thinks that someone who makes between 100k and 250k is middle class and thus is from planet Kolb? That would be OBAMA

ROFLMAO at you libs.
 
 
+7 # bmiluski 2012-09-19 07:18
Honey that is rich. However, it doesn't surprise you that you neo-cons can't understand the theory of there's rich and there's RICH. President Obama doesn't want to tax just for the sake of taxing. He would like the RICH to take some responsibility for their RICHES. Just like the rest of us do.
 
 
-6 # phantomww 2012-09-19 07:58
So then you also consider people who make 250k to be RICH? IF, and it is a big IF, what you say is true then why would Obama not have the increase tax people who make over 1 million or 5 million or other RICH as opposed to the 250k rich?
Since the top 1% already pay abour 37% of ALL federal income taxes I think that they are already taking some responsibility for their riches.

Another point of fact. The income break point for the 1% was 343k (2009 data, don't have 2010 yet). So why not tax those who make that instead of those who make 250k?
The facts are that Obama thinks that anyone who makes over 250k is rich which meand that those who make under that are middle class.
 
 
+3 # bmiluski 2012-09-19 09:49
Because your neo-con buddies won't let him. By using the 250K ceiling more people can get off paying their equal share.
 
 
-3 # phantomww 2012-09-19 18:43
ah back to the mind numbing mantra of "paying their fair share". And since they are already paying 37% why do you insist that it is not a "fair" share?
LIbs just hate people who are successful and want everyone to be "equal" and have the same everything. If someone makes more money then they MUST have STOLEN it from some poor person.
I just hope for your sake that they change the flavor of the kool-aid they keep giving you.
 
 
+2 # dkonstruction 2012-09-20 09:25
Quoting phantomww:
ah back to the mind numbing mantra of "paying their fair share". And since they are already paying 37% why do you insist that it is not a "fair" share?
LIbs just hate people who are successful and want everyone to be "equal" and have the same everything. If someone makes more money then they MUST have STOLEN it from some poor person.
I just hope for your sake that they change the flavor of the kool-aid they keep giving you.


they do not pay 37% of their income and they only pay 37% of the federal income tax which ignores (and is thus deliberately misleading) the vast majority of us who pay most of our taxes as payroll taxes....not to mention that the 1% (and more) get a huge "tax break" by not having to pay Social Security taxes on the vast majority of their income (and if they did the SS system would be solvant forever).

and, just to be clear, i am not now nor have i ever been a liberal (i'm with Phil Ochs on this one).
 
 
-2 # phantomww 2012-09-20 11:06
dkon,

thanks for the input but please note that I never stated they pay 37% of THEIR income like you posted. The pay 37% of ALL federal INCOME taxes paid.

We have not been discussing social security taxes and yes while that stops at 106,800 the medicare tax does apply to all their earned income. Also, increasing the limit on social security would also increase the amount that SS has to pay out to those same people. Payments are based on payments made.
 
 
0 # bmiluski 2012-09-21 12:01
Get it through your thick neo-con head........the top 10% possessing 80% of all financial assets [and] the bottom 90% holding only 20% of all financial wealth. Yet the top only pay 37% of our countries taxes.
 
 
0 # phantomww 2012-09-21 15:22
Get it through you thin neo-lib head that we have an INCOME tax and not a WEALTH tax.

And I am still waiting for you to provide me with you actual income tax numbers. You did not pay 30% Federal INCOME tax. Provide the numbers and I will tell you what your effective tax rate really was.
 
 
+20 # Wyntergreen 2012-09-17 20:37
Mitt Romney is a Punk-Ass Chump.
 
 
+26 # sameasiteverwas 2012-09-17 20:39
It's not just Romney jumping the shark to claim a news cycle; not just Romney sticking his fingers into an inflammatory international situation and attacking a sitting President's policies while embassies are under actual attack; it's not even the intellectual disconnect that allows him to be so disingenuous about the staffer's statement -- which, if read in full, is a passionate statement about those "American values" that Romney says he wants to defend.

All that is bad enough -- but the elephant in the room is the Big Lie -- Lakoff can call it framework, but it's a lie -- that Obama has ever "apologized for America." Romney has no respect for truth, no respect for the Foreign Service, and no respect for the office for which he is in contention. His laundry list of things for which America SHOULDN'T apologize is a litany of foreign policy disasters and international war crimes. I wish Obama HAD apologized -- and dismantled the whole horrible framework. We are better than this. We, the People, ARE better than lying, self-serving torturing, insular, bigoted racists, but you wouldn't know it to hear Romney defend our right to be all of those things. Pure-D ugly. Can't wait for November.
 
 
+27 # maddave 2012-09-17 21:51
In an old John Wayne movie, Wayne's character announced "Never apologize. It's a sign of weakness." I've heard it since from several quarters, and although this may be taken as apostasy, Duke was never more wrong. Apologizing and taking responsibility for ones screw-ups takes the real courage that wimps and cowards do not possess.

At this instant we are at swords points with Iran, and this (plus all of our later troubles there) date back to 1953 when we---the USA---deposed the democratically elected Prime Minister, M. Mossadegh; installed the profligate, puppet Shah; and organized & trained DSAVAK, his dreaded secret police.
.
Cutting to the chase, ALL be defused today IF Obama/Clinton would contact Iran diplomatically with the following message:
"Unfortunate mistakes have been made, and we regret our part in those mistakes. However, that was then and this is now. It is time for Iran and the United States to move on ahead and to bring Peace to the Middle East as only we can. To this end, let us sit down at the table, break bread as equals, and settle our differences amicably."

Israel,would just have to get used to it, bring her hardliners into the 21st Century; and commence sincere Peace Talks of her own.

Shalom.
 
 
+9 # genierae 2012-09-18 07:00
Thank you for your eloquent statement, maddave, I too think that approach would work. I loved John Wayne as a child and still do, but now that I have put aside childish things, I see that he was a victim of right-wing conditioning, and a very bad influence on children. Barack Obama is anything but weak, to me he personifies that quote of Teddy Roosevelts's, "Speak softly and carry a big stick." He acts from the immense power of the United States of America, and so he can afford to be diplomatic in his relations with other countries. Mitt Romney, should he gain the presidency, would be an unmitigated disaster, taking us back to the madness of the days of W. A policy of "no apologies", also means a world with "no peace".
 
 
-13 # phantomww 2012-09-18 08:11
Ok, I will be Iran at your table. Here are my demands. You pull out all troops from the middle east. You impose sharia law in the US. You denounce Israel as a terrorist state. You imprison anyone who says anything bad about the prophet mohammed.

If you don't do all of these things then I will not "break bread" with you. I will continue to support attacks on americans everywhere in the world and will still work to develop a nuclear bomb to use on Israel.

OK, Your turn to offer counter-proposa ls at the table. I await your reply.
 
 
+2 # bmiluski 2012-09-18 11:27
Well darlin, since neither you or I know what ALL the options are at our disposale, this is not just a mute point but an ignorant question.
 
 
-7 # phantomww 2012-09-18 12:24
Where is your counter proposal? All you libs think that we can talk our way to peace. Prove it to me and lets us talk "darlin".
 
 
0 # bmiluski 2012-09-21 06:53
Quoting phantomww:
Where is your counter proposal? All you libs think that we can talk our way to peace. Prove it to me and lets us talk "darlin".

The US makes a deal the rest of the planet and no-one buys oil from Iran. US makes a deal with China and Russia and they establish a blockade. No food, products, etc. come in or go out. Meanwhile, US makes a deal with International Banking community and ALL Iranian assets are frozen so that there is absolutely no money coming into Iran.
Iran is now completely isolated and broke without a single American shot fired.
 
 
0 # phantomww 2012-09-21 15:24
OMG,
you sound like a warhawk. So what happens when Iran fires at China and Russia?

Although I will admit that I would take you offer although I doubt either China or Russia will.

So we kind of agree on something finally. lol
 
 
+1 # KittatinyHawk 2012-09-18 12:30
I do not do any proposals with the Militant Morons on any side.
I will when the time arises meet with Nations and discuss how this Movie came to be, who saw to it to have it paraded in Middle East.
Under our Law, people have the right to freedoms of speech, video so we cannot, will not hand them over. We will give you the information on them and you can do what your Laws Guide you to do.

One must Understand that you have dealt personally with these people. They speak with two tongues, never a truth of either one.

Israel will have to stand on their own two feet. If anyone of Israeli Ancestory in the USA has the backbone to go and fight, they will lose their citizenship for taking oath to two sides.
We will no longer give aid to anyone nor will we side with anyone. We will let the UN handle situations as they are organized to do so.
 
 
+5 # maddave 2012-09-18 13:23
What you do not know, Gary ---and what you will never learn while sitting on your duff in Spring Valley CA--- is that "We The (Iranian) People" look up to We The (American) People. We were close friends until the USA sided with Great Britin & Churchill against Mossadegh and his long overdue nationalization of Anglo-Iranian Oil (now BP) in 1952. Since then we have incessantly meddled in Iran's internal affairs, and the post-Shah Iranian leaders are a reflection of Iran's overall disapprobation- --and anger--- over our apparently-eter nal arrogance . . . as manifested by our disregard of Iran as a sovereign nation and our treating her people and culture like dirt. Even in Spring Valley you must be aware that you can rub a cat's fur the wrong way for only so long.

Still---and I tell you this from personal, boots-on-the-gr ound experience in the Middle East---Iranians still harbour hope that the pendulum will swing back sufficiently to allow American and Iranian people to greet each other in Peace once more. .

Again from personal experience, I know that after all that has happened since Harry Truman left the White House, we will are obliged to make the first move ... and make it in a positive direction.

So what does your infinite, in-depth wisdom lead you to suggest, Gary? I anxiously await your answer.
 
 
-5 # phantomww 2012-09-18 15:45
oh, so putting my name and city is supposed to prove what?

I agree with you that for the most part the Iranian PEOPLE do not have a problem with the US PEOPLE. But it is NOT the PEOPLE who talk but the politicians.

Also---and I tell you this from personal, boots-on-the-gr ound experience in the Middle East (would you like me to name all of the countries I have had "boots on the ground"?) that one does not offer concessions without first hearing what the other side wants. But, I will answer you final question since you are waiting. I offer to not nuke your country. How is that for an opening offer of friendship? Now please tell me what you want if you are going to be the Iranians in this discussion.
 
 
+3 # maddave 2012-09-18 21:56
Well, Gary! Aren't we the testy one tonight!

Elbert Hubbard wrote "Only fools and fanatics are certain. The wise harbor doubts." Another thing about fools and fanatics is that ---invariably-- -they open negotiations with bullying tactics, ultimatums and threats . . . which you clearly see ,as the proper strategy for dealing with Iran. You obviously have no idea of the long term gravity of the present situation, and I don't have time right now to teach you. Come back with some hint of humility and I'll try help you.

IAnd, no, Gary, I don't want you to name the countries that you claim to have visited. I'm sure that you have traveled far, and it's just a shame that you spent so much time and treasure to learn so little.

Give Bebe Netanyahu my very best regards when next you see him. And lest we forget, have a blessed Rosh Hashanah.
 
 
-4 # phantomww 2012-09-19 08:06
Not testy at all and are you cerain that is what Hubbard wrote?

And what has humility got to do with negotiations? Maybe it was humility that Chamberlain had when he came back from his negotiations.

Actually, Israel is one of the Middle Eastern countries that I have not had boots on the ground so it would be hard for me to say hi to him. Of course, it was really hard for Obama to say hi also when they were in NY.

Once, Egypt was an ally and now they are not. Once we had really good relations with Israel and now we don't. How is this foreign policy working so far.

There have been 2 US ambassadors killed in the Middle East. One under Obama and the last in 1979 in Afghanistan. wonder who the president was then? Oh, yeah, that pillar of foreign policy, "let us just talk" theory Jimmy Carter.
 
 
+3 # maddave 2012-09-19 06:33
P. S. In that Israel has refused to sign international nuclear non-proliferati on pacts ---and militantly so--- and has developed a nuclear capability (presumably with borrowed-or-pil fered US technology), why is Iran targeted for doing the exact same thing? Beginning with the Cuban Missile Crisis, a Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) situation kept both sides from doing stupid things to provoke the other. I'd be comfortable with that stand-off between these two Middle Eastern antagonists - it seems to be working between Pakistan & India.
 
 
-3 # phantomww 2012-09-19 08:10
Just curious, did either the US or USSR state that they would wipe the other off the map in a first strike or did they just use the nucs as a deterrent knowing they had enough for a second strike?

Have either India or Pakistan come out in the public and said they would wipe the other off the face of the earth and that the other had no right to be alive?

Had Israel ever stated that they would wipe any Arab/Muslim country off the face of the earth?

Has Iranian leaders ever stated that they would wipe Israel off the face of the earth?

Your moral equivalence is not only wrong but really dangerous.
 
 
+3 # maddave 2012-09-19 11:54
I grow weary of your negativity and pedantics, Gary.

Idiots & madmen have always invented reasons why new ideas won't work, and they have rapidly rationalize the thinnest of reasons for making war - e.g. our disastrous (GW) Bush doctrine. Hubris and orthodoxy seal off all non-violent exits in advance and proceed on a worst-case presumption, thus making war inevitable. You'd be good at this.

Conversely, mutually advantageous negotiations are ALWAYS less costly than a protracted war. The fact that one CAN fight may be comfortable, but it's a last ditch option, NOT an obligation,
.
With Iran, the 1,000,000 troops necessary in-country to wage the war will necessitate a new draft, and ---as in Viet Nam, Iraq & Afghanistan---w e will spend trillions of dollars over decades, take a half-million casualties and still lose --- both at home and around the world!

My "moral equivalence", as you call it, is just common sense, Ace. ... a commodity that seems in short supply in Spring Valley.

You get the last word - I can explain the situation TO you, but I can't understand it FOR you. Que lastima!


Y
 
 
-3 # phantomww 2012-09-19 18:49
Again, I offer to negotiate with you and net you refuse. I started this tread by saying I would be the Iranians and no one accepted my proposal. I offered to be the US to you and you insisted that I come to the table with something GRAND yet how can I do that when I have no idea what you want. Hard to have a mutally advantageous negotiation when one side (YOU) won't come to the table.

So would you like to try? You can be Iran and let me know what your demands are.

Por favor!
 
 
-1 # bmiluski 2012-09-21 12:06
I've posted this reply 3 times. I don't know why it's not being accepted. But here goes AGAIN.
US makes a deal with Russia and China and they blockage all the ports as well as stop buying ANY oil from Iran.
We make a deal with all the countries surrounding Iran and block all their borders. Nothings comes in (food, products, etc.) and nothing comes out. We also make a deal with the international banking communities and totally freeze all their assets.....No money for Iran....bankrup tcy for IRAN.
And not a single shot fired by an American soldier.
 
 
0 # phantomww 2012-09-21 15:25
I replied to the earlier one but I am fine with this.
 
 
+6 # bmiluski 2012-09-18 11:25
Lets not forget that the "Duke" for all his bravado never served in any of the armed forces. He talked the talk but never walked it.
 
 
+2 # KittatinyHawk 2012-09-18 12:25
I feel that we should leave it as such, perhaps fax the showing in USA to Muslims and relevance the Palin et others were rejoicing in this atrocity.
I want to know whose money was used. Who took this video. Who promoted it to USA and Middle East. They have the Right to and I have the Right to Know who is involved and so do you
 
 
+17 # Ralph Averill 2012-09-17 21:51
Freedom of Speech includes the freedom to condemn the speech of others.
The United Stares of America was not endowed by its creators, (or by THE creator,) with papal infallibility.
Bullying and intimidation is not leadership.
Admitting mistakes takes more strength, and inspires more respect, than denial.
Random thoughts at 2 in the morning.
 
 
-13 # Deboldt 2012-09-17 22:24
Hillary would like to forget when Ray McGovern tried to non-violently exercise his freedom of speech by standing during her press conference and turning his back on the lady. For his trouble he was beaten to the floor and violently dragged from the room by her goons. No apology was ever issued.

Let’s not forget the police violence meted out on the Occupy people's speech rights on a continuing basis.

or even the public media (PBS & NPR) where balance means far right v. right v. middle. No Progressives need apply.

And now the 1st Amendment "rights" of corporate persons crowd out all other's rights!

Obama and Hillary not to mention Lakoff and Wehling have no business lecturing anyone about freedom of speech until they can give examples of it in action on matters that really count in Amerika.
 
 
+2 # KittatinyHawk 2012-09-18 12:35
No one has to give any apology for Republican morons. I think their behavior, their Acts should speak for themselves.

I do not agree with Hilary never have.
She is a War Monger doesnot represent my beliefs as a woman. If she wants to do some good, she should be stomping all over the gay marriage fiascos, the telling women what they can do with their bodies, the abortion rights. As a mother I would hope she would attack the NRA and their supposed Gun rights bs as well as designer drugs.
If that is beneath her to do so, then I hope she never runs again.
 
 
0 # reiverpacific 2012-09-18 18:09
Quoting KittatinyHawk:
No one has to give any apology for Republican morons. I think their behavior, their Acts should speak for themselves.

I do not agree with Hilary never have.
She is a War Monger doesnot represent my beliefs as a woman. If she wants to do some good, she should be stomping all over the gay marriage fiascos, the telling women what they can do with their bodies, the abortion rights. As a mother I would hope she would attack the NRA and their supposed Gun rights bs as well as designer drugs.
If that is beneath her to do so, then I hope she never runs again.

Right!
She is also a "Holy-roller" who attends these ridiculous prayer breakfasts inflicted by the right on our national lawmakers who want to be noticed, and which are perpetrated by the tax-avoiding, homophobic and criminal 'C' street lodgers.
No excuses for all these slaps on the wrist she hands out to those who are still "our bad guys" -but turns the other cheek to the medieval regime of Saudi Arabia; why? Well-----Oil perhaps??!!
 
 
-4 # Deboldt 2012-09-17 22:25
In their eagerness to attack Romney’s frankly stupid remarks, I regret that Lakoff and Wehling feel it necessary to ignore the crimes and hypocrisies of our leading Democrat office holders. Freedom of speech is a joke in this country.

Sure, I can write till I’m blue about high crimes and misdemeanours. No one on any scale will ever hear or care except a few in my small choir. But if I’m a Bradley Manning or a Julian Assange or innumerable other whistle blowers, able to really threaten the secret corruption of our leaders and the atrocities ordered by our generals, I had better count my life very lightly not to mention my rights honoured by the first amendment.
 
 
+4 # reiverpacific 2012-09-18 08:41
Quoting Deboldt:
In their eagerness to attack Romney’s frankly stupid remarks, I regret that Lakoff and Wehling feel it necessary to ignore the crimes and hypocrisies of our leading Democrat office holders. Freedom of speech is a joke in this country.

Sure, I can write till I’m blue about high crimes and misdemeanours. No one on any scale will ever hear or care except a few in my small choir. But if I’m a Bradley Manning or a Julian Assange or innumerable other whistle blowers, able to really threaten the secret corruption of our leaders and the atrocities ordered by our generals, I had better count my life very lightly not to mention my rights honoured by the first amendment.

Reluctantly, I have to agree with you.
My favorite example -Leonard Peltier and that's just one.
But then soaring rhetoric isn't free speech is it? it's like the news. It is written and dispersed by those who can afford to own the media.
Romney is contemptible; his world view is very obviously proscribed by his Mormon brainwashing, which regards other nations and cultures -including American Indians- as erring fodder for conversion. He should be caged in some safe haven but sadly, so many Americans go along with his twaddle based on their own ignorance and mean-spiritedne ss, -whilst he denigrates them too!
Those giving red thumbs-down here may wish to think about many truthful points in "Debolt's" posts that perhaps you don't wish to face.
 
 
0 # KittatinyHawk 2012-09-18 12:37
Why the thumbs down on sleazy Democrats...the y are.
They have not backed their President, nor did they fight Bushie. I see them not going to get voter id's, seems poor people are beneath them.

So no thumbs down. When democrats find their consciences and back bone then let us know.
 
 
+1 # bmiluski 2012-09-19 10:07
Democrats Abroad will be sponsoring a 5-week voter registration / motivation bus tour throughout Europe, starting in Munich, Germany on 8 June and going through Italy, France, Spain, Belgium, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Norway and ending in London on the weekend of the 14 July.
There are also bus tours registering campus voters. And there are buses being provided for individuals who do not have transportation to places where they can get a photo i.d.
So, you might want to tell your neo-con puppet masters to gived you some other anti-dem things to post.
 
 
-3 # D12345 2012-09-18 19:57
Thanks Deboldt.
 
 
-2 # bmiluski 2012-09-19 09:54
Sure, I can write till I’m blue about high crimes and misdemeanours.
Yes and that's call freedom of speech.

Bradley Manning or a Julian Assange put in danger the lives of many American men and women.
 
 
+6 # Rick Levy 2012-09-17 22:40
Lakoff misses the point that a movie no matter how crude or insulting is no reason for Muslims to react as disproportionat ely violently as they did. It's just a film, not a military assault. And what was their point for attacking the embassies of countries that had nothing to do with this movie?

And Muslims don't practice what they preach about cultural sensitivity. An example is an Iranian TV show that depicts Jews as greedy murderers. See

http://www.timesofisrael.com/iranian-film-depicts-jews-as-money-hungry-arab-killers/
 
 
+5 # genierae 2012-09-18 07:11
Mr. Levy, those Muslims who attacked the embassy in Libya, were using a peaceful demonstration to commit murder. Haven't you heard, it was the peaceful demonstrators who found the Ambassador and took him to the hospital? As in every country, there are always madmen who are intent on using violence to further their ends. Use all the examples you want, it is still a very small minority of Muslims who commit criminal acts. Why do you tar all Muslims with the same brush?
 
 
0 # KittatinyHawk 2012-09-18 12:52
I already posted my thoughts to all who want to War Leave the USA we do not need this crap here no more.

They have been brandishing people for centuries. You do not think they actually like Christians any better do you? They sold our Jesus for a couple of shillings.
They do not even treat their own well.

They should keep their Pledge to Israel and leave, fight for their Homeland and stop being part of the Problem in the World. Let the UN take care of these battles from now on.

I believe when we see who made this Movie, you will see that Adelson had money in it, that is why he went to Jerusalem with the Gentils Neither one of their Religions believe in the others. How fitting. The TP and GOP set the Stage for this Murder as they always do....
 
 
+2 # Texas Aggie 2012-09-18 09:10
Many commentators have suggested that the movie trailer was only the trigger. The actual offense that had people already hot and furious were things like drone attacks on civilians, invasion of Moslem countries, a general attitude by the US that all Moslems are evil, unquestioning support for Israel, and that kind of thing. All it took was a spark to ignite a bunch of spilled gasoline. They aren't as upset by the movie as they are by the rest of the US's actions against Moslem people.
 
 
0 # bmiluski 2012-09-18 11:32
Wrong, these people are upset with ANYONE who does not agree with EVERYTHING they believe in. It just seemed so coincidental that this video should appear on the aniversary of 9/11. Carl....are you there?
 
 
0 # KittatinyHawk 2012-09-18 12:47
When you have Morons skinny dipping in Holy Land. Have premier of this Movie boosted the Palin and like. have Mittens assuring Israel he is going to back and Iran War....I think the Muslims have every right to Protest.
I believe the right wing of the Muslims have disgraced the Good People. I believe it is time those people start standing up to these creeps.

From the Muslim point of View their thoughts on Israel is just. I feel Israel Military Mentality is unjustified in their need to kill...innocent children, families, seniors than scream Holocaust .... Where is that right?
And their is greed amongst that race as there is in other races. So Muslims have the right to educate others on the Jewish Politicians, Military not holding up their ends of deals and buying people to kill for them.
I believe it is time for all Israel to bring their Children Home. I believe it is time to be either an American and Stand up for the USA or give up your citizenship and return to live and fight for your Homeland. Nice to live here in our Country and Pledge Allegiance to Israel? I believe it is time to go home as you Pledge to do each year. Then perhaps you can rebuild your Homeland, learn what it is to have to protect your own lands.

No more Wars for others. Creeps who want to kill...hire yourself out and leave the USA
 
 
+15 # stonecutter 2012-09-17 23:08
This is a brilliant analysis and distillation of what most reasonable Americans already must feel in their hearts and bones about Romney, Ryan and the neocon plutocrats they both embody and represent.

As has been said and written many times in the past months, if there ever was a more portentous presidential election signifying the choice between two alternate, almost bipolar worldviews and directions for this country, I can't recall it in our history, even after you discount much of Romney's comic book rhetoric as political bloviation of a low, particularly inept order; exhibit A, his convention speech.

Now we've got the revealed (by Mother Jones), previously "private" video comments Romney made at a recent fundraiser in some super-rich guy's mansion regarding Willard the Android's conception of virtually half the nation as "victims" who "don't pay taxes" and expect the government to "take care of them", who don't "care about their own lives", etc., whom he can't worry about or consider in his quest for the Holy Grail of Power. Electing this supremely arrogant, boneheaded, pathologically ambitious empty suit POTUS would be analogous to Ted Bundy, in his infamous prime, becoming the head counselor at a rape crisis center. Enough said.
 
 
+1 # KittatinyHawk 2012-09-18 12:54
Over half the American Populace do not pay their fair share of taxes...mostly slime bag repubs who also do not pay their student loans back either making it hard on the new students.
 
 
+13 # George Baggett 2012-09-17 23:57
Like other Neocons, Romney portrays what the late Chalmers Johnson referred to as "an overwhelming sense of innocence," yet with the indications of his funding for Bain Capitol as coming from elites connected with death squads in El Salvador, there is an exceptionalism Americans should consider as he and his ilk want to "take back" America, and for what purpose? Does this larger picture desire a return to elite ownership of Central and South America in a manner similar to the days of the Dulles brothers and Henry Cabot Lodge? Do these ideologs want to expand exploit the US in a manner similar to controls placed on Guatemala, Nicaragua and Cuba?

Romney may claim to see an apology where he would inflict an iron heel, but the events of Arab nations this past year has developed into a keg of humanity unwilling to accept the yoke of servitude. And clearly, extreme response has been given a light of clarity to expose its ugly side as having some rationale.

I worry about our Romney and those who would quietly hope for a transition to return to American exploitation and destabilization of budding democracies.
 
 
+17 # vitobonespur 2012-09-18 01:23
If this asshole were to be elected, he'd have us in another war within 6 months. Good God, what a bonehead!
 
 
+15 # humanmancalvin 2012-09-18 01:51
Romney is a fool & a tool, a ridiculously poor combination for one running for POTUS.
For the sake of ell that is sane: Obama/Biden 2012. And a senate & House full of Democrats & not so much the Blue Dog variety.
 
 
+19 # silenus 2012-09-18 02:19
Being a Republican means you never have to say you're sorry.
 
 
+5 # reiverpacific 2012-09-18 11:10
Quoting silenus:
Being a Republican means you never have to say you're sorry.

Or even further, Never even being aware enough to say "Sorry".
Such a sorry lot i'truth -but it's till like Kipling's "Smile on the face of the Tiger" (before it pounces and rips you to shreds).
 
 
+15 # hobbesian 2012-09-18 04:03
My ex-husband liked to win at everything; and he would never apologise; he said only, when pressed for some contrition, "I'm sorry you're upset". Yep, he's history, I hope Romney will be, too. We in the US need to learn diplomacy, instead of exhibiting our arrogance; just because we are rich doesn't mean we are always right and entitled to "take all". And we are hated, despised, and resented, we can now see where that gets us.
 
 
+2 # KittatinyHawk 2012-09-18 13:02
We are hated because we breed hatred. We are seen contemptible because we believe we should like UK buy everyone.
Those of other Nations, some in our Country like Jimmy Carter who saw Nations and their People as Children of Creator, went to the homelands and tried to do good works. They were not there like the Bush Family since the Forties wheeling and dealing in bad arms deals.

If we would actually understand Value of Belongings instead of buy, buy, throw out, throw out....maybe we could understand values of simplicity that other Nations share. Only the Greedy, Westernized nations seem to have lost tract and brought the anger out in so many.

We only send money, never enough or we do not see that the money, supplies, medical gets to the people. We do not care where it goes as long as we can say we did it. No we are interested in taking their land, resources as we did the American Indians, Hawaiians, Eskimos, Philippines, Puerto Rico. That is our track record. We do it more humanely...we are not blowing these countries up daily like the Israelis to their neighbors. But we do it all the same for Greed
 
 
+5 # tedrey 2012-09-18 04:16
Excellent and accurate presentation, except that it falls into the trap (especially in the last paragraph) of assuming that Obama (or any American President since maybe Eisenhower) has ever "apologized" for American actions. Romney wrote that Obama "has apologized for what he deems to be American arrogance, dismissiveness, and derision; for dictating solutions, for acting unilaterally, and for acting without regard for others; for treating other countries as mere proxies, for unjustly interfering in the internal affairs of other nations, and for feeding anti-Muslim sentiments; for committing torture, for dragging our feet on global warming and for selectively promoting democracy."
But in fact Obama has never actually apologized for any of these . . . just quietly continued with some of them.
Of course, Romney's position that these American actions should not call for apology because they are justified and righteous, or rather just because they are American, is beneath contempt.
One of the horrors of the Republican stance is that it makes even Obama's look good.
But as far as dealing with Romney, Lakoff and Wehling are, as usual, spot on.
 
 
+1 # KittatinyHawk 2012-09-18 13:08
OBama will be apologizing if this toxic stuff with oil companies continue.

However, OB cannot take the Fall nor will I for this Toxic Movie. Sorry, the Republicans, perhaps some Jewish Folk are behind this Movie and its debuts. So we owe not apology. I believe all Muslims should continue to investigate to see where it came from, boycott those companies, individuals where it hurts.

But we owe no apologies. I do not believe we should be anywhere bombing but for now whether Jewish Bible, Christian bs or Koran an eye for an eye is seeming to be on everyone's plate...so I hope they blow each other up so the rest of us can pick up our lives without a one of them! Cannot be soon enough for me
 
 
+14 # Barbara K 2012-09-18 04:18
It's like Romneyhood has his foot now permanently glued in his mouth. He is showing his true self in these "leaked" tapes. Well, he is as cold and heartless as they come. How can he even think that we would want him to be our President? He has his figures wrong, of course. Everyone pays taxes, except the wealthy. We pay sales tax, etc. The everyday people who don't pay taxes, some don't have jobs to provide an income to pay income taxes on, there are many out of work. What is really disgusting is the wealthy who pay no income taxes at all, including Romneyhood. This guy has such a bad concept of us that he isn't even concerned about our problems and couldn't care less. Some are even soldiers, who risk their lives for low wages. This guy would love to have half the country just be his slaves.

OBAMA/BIDEN 2012
The alternative is unbearable.
 
 
+8 # pernsey 2012-09-18 05:54
Thats right Barbara, Romney just recently said that the 47% of people that dont pay taxes wont vote for him, and they are victims. So essentially Mitt is saying hes a victim because he doesnt pay his taxes or has an issue he wont show them...oh wait theres an exemption for him because hes rich. Mitt has no clue how real people live...NONE! Your absolutely correct Barbara.
 
 
+3 # KittatinyHawk 2012-09-18 13:09
I wish the Dog could strap him to some roofs permanently
 
 
-6 # MidwestTom 2012-09-18 04:46
I liked Hillary's comments that Americans have the right of free speech. Of course she did not mention that OBama took away that right if one is speaking within 1000 feet of an elected official.
 
 
-6 # Glen 2012-09-18 05:05
Right, and that is not mentioning being herded into segregated areas away from said officials and secret service, continuing the Patriot Act, Homeland Security, increased surveillance, drones, and on and on and on.
 
 
+2 # KittatinyHawk 2012-09-18 13:12
If you think this paranoia is needed...you are so foolish. There has been this surveillance on us since before McCarthy.
Killing well, that is all white folks know how to do besides drinking, drugs. Secret Service...think this is new? CIA
You people just need to snivel...
Perhaps we are learning to hate even more since we team up with Israel? We were already schizoid since Krushev...
 
 
+15 # opinionaire 2012-09-18 06:48
'Twas Shrub and his minions, not Obama that established "free speech zones."
 
 
+3 # pbbrodie 2012-09-18 08:33
Has President Obama reversed "free speech zones," no! Has he reversed indefinite rendition, no! The list goes on and on. None of this has anything to do with how badly Romney has been acting, though.
 
 
+1 # KittatinyHawk 2012-09-18 13:14
Perhaps because the Congress and Senate would not go along.
I do not think that is a case of utter emergency..jobs , economy is I also would rather hang him and Congress for Toxins back

Romney is another inbred white trash. We so love our idols
 
 
+1 # pernsey 2012-09-19 12:42
Quoting pbbrodie:
Has President Obama reversed "free speech zones," no! Has he reversed indefinite rendition, no! The list goes on and on. None of this has anything to do with how badly Romney has been acting, though.


Its all just Fox news BS, apparently they had their hosts on a few shows say this, so now its a repub talking point. Its based on nothing but Fox news lies.
 
 
-2 # pbbrodie 2012-09-18 08:31
I don't understand why your comment should illicit negative votes. All you did was speak the truth.
 
 
+3 # Texas Aggie 2012-09-18 09:17
Ah, no, it wasn't the truth. Those policies began when Bush and Cheney were running for their second term. That Obama hasn't changed them is a black mark on his part, but don't blame him for creating them in the first place.
 
 
+6 # bmiluski 2012-09-18 11:39
Wait a minute. They were around but not enforced by the Obama administration. That's why the tea-bags could come in and disrupt the town-hall meetings about ObamaCare. Not allowing any of the elected officials answer any questions from the audience and not allowing anyone in the audience to ask questions. Typical brown-shirt tactics.
 
 
+9 # fredboy 2012-09-18 05:14
Spoiled brats often lack compassion and understanding.
 
 
+3 # bmiluski 2012-09-18 11:41
That's because daddy and his money can always bail them out.
 
 
+4 # kalpal 2012-09-18 07:24
Aristcrats and royals never apologize to anyone but each other and even that is done in a cynical and hypocritcal manner. The peasants and serfs must learn that no matter how wrong the right wing is, it is by definition right. If you don't like it, we'll beat you up so you better shut up.
 
 
+1 # KittatinyHawk 2012-09-18 13:17
But you do not have to accept it and you can use your freedom of speech You are doing so right here...anyone knocking your doors down people?
Wait til your Romnettes get in Power...RSN will be gone forever and so will most blog sites.
Enjoy your rights...you Republicans are giving them away do not have the right to do so on my behalf
 
 
+6 # Regina 2012-09-18 07:47
Romney has an obsession with acquisition. He's salivating over the presidency because it's another exclusive, expensive toy, like a dressage horse or a mansion with a car elevator in its vast garage. He scores zero (or less!) in human relations, since he's totally ignorant of any interpersonal interactions except the extreme top-down. His contempt for what he has labeled the bottom 47% of our population totally disqualifies him for the royal job he craves, and is far from the only negative factor in his character.
 
 
+10 # tswhiskers 2012-09-18 08:13
George W. Bush on steroids, indeed. I know Obama could have handled some of the problems in the Middle East better than he did but Holy Cow! Romney would the entire region at war with each other and definitely with us. No wonder they want to spend do much more for the DOD. After the major mistakes of the Bush II Admin. do we really want more Reps. showing off their muscles and testosterone? God save us from fools and bullies! Given the tender feelings re Allah and Islam in the Middle East, we truly need someone who is an expert at walking on eggshells there. The last thing we need is the Romney/Ryan bull rampaging around in the world's china shop.
 
 
0 # KittatinyHawk 2012-09-18 13:22
I think that a Draft with no exceptions should be put back in order. Than let us see who is going to jump to put their kids into WAR. It is okay for rest of us....well, I believe everyone flat foots and all must go.
All Politicians must either here or abroad go to do community service as well as their wives. I want to see Ms R sleeping in Missions, helping clean in hospices. I would love to see them all involved. I would personally make every Pastor, Archbishop, Rabbi etc all on bases. No one stays here. No collection plates ... just hands on working together.

Like it should be.
 
 
+7 # Vardoz 2012-09-18 08:25
So in the middle of a deep recession, as the GOP are blocking all job creation and outsourcing millions of jobs while they are stashing their trillions off shore, instead of helping to create jobs and uplifting the nation as a whole they are telling half of the population that they can just die in the gutter as every representative gets govt pensions for life that we pay for and triple A health care. The ultra rich are paying less taxes now than they have in 50 yrs if any at all and as they block job creation they blame those who don't have a job for being good for nothings! As Boehner said " NO JOBS SO BE IT." There are trillions in tax cuts for the rich and billions in siubsidies for the richest corporations, tens of billions for fabricated wars for profit and untold billions for our prisons and super spy matrix and billions and billlions in bailouts for the banks but not enough for the people of the nation who if given a job and a chance would gladly pay a fair tax. This is such complete BUll Shit and R & R are the worst pieces of scum I have ever seen. How dare they! Obama has problems, no doubt, but he is in our opions the better choice!!!!!!
 
 
-11 # phantomww 2012-09-18 08:59
Vardoz,
Your comment about the ultra rich paying less, if any at all is just wrong.
Some facts from the IRS.
Taxes paid by top 1%
The first number is % of total income taxes paid and second number is ave tax rate.
2003, 34.27% 24.31%
2005, 39.38% 23.13%
2006, 39.89% 22.79%
2007, 40.42% 22.45%
2008, 38.02% 23.27%
2009, 36.7% 24.01%

So it would seem that the top 1% do in fact pay a lot of taxes and their average tax rate is the highest of all taxfilers.
 
 
+5 # sameasiteverwas 2012-09-18 10:14
Phantom --
Would like to see you reference the origin of your chart -- and take it back to 1950. And then run a comparison between high tax rates for the "job creators" versus actual job creation and the growth of the middle class. You can even throw in growth and contraction on Wall Street. And then tell me how bad the top 1% have it these days.
 
 
+6 # dkonstruction 2012-09-18 10:16
Quoting phantomww:
Vardoz,
Your comment about the ultra rich paying less, if any at all is just wrong.
Some facts from the IRS.
Taxes paid by top 1%
The first number is % of total income taxes paid and second number is ave tax rate.
2003, 34.27% 24.31%
2005, 39.38% 23.13%
2006, 39.89% 22.79%
2007, 40.42% 22.45%
2008, 38.02% 23.27%
2009, 36.7% 24.01%

So it would seem that the top 1% do in fact pay a lot of taxes and their average tax rate is the highest of all taxfilers.


phantomww, the point is that the vast majority of "income" earned by the top 1% is not income from wages/salaries but rather investment income which is taxed at the far lower capital gains rate of 15%. So, it is disingenous at best and consciously misleading at worst to claim that the top 1% in this country pay an effective tax rate of 24%
 
 
-6 # phantomww 2012-09-18 12:31
dkon,

Those numbers are from the IRS. The top 1% in this country pay and effective tax rate of 24%. That is neither didingenous nor misleading but a fact of life. Also, it does not matter where they get their income from, the fact is that on average they pay an effective rate of about 24%. BTW, IF the vast majority of income is taxed as investment income then how do they go from a tax rate of 15% max on investment income UP TO 24%. Would it not mean they they have a lot of money being taxed at a rate higher than 24% to offset the 15% on capital gains?
 
 
0 # dkonstruction 2012-09-20 10:15
As i showed in my other response, the effective individual tax rate was only 19% (for 2007) which proves my point that the vast majority of these folks income comes from income that is treated as capital gains which is taxed at a mere 15% unless like the vast majority of americans that have no substantial capital gains income and so are taxed at a much higher rate (including those of us that Romney et al try to paint as tax dodgers because we pay "no federal income tax" without saying that we pay payroll taxes at a much higher rate than what Romney and the rest of his class pay.
 
 
0 # phantomww 2012-09-21 08:16
dkon,
Ido not know where you get the 19% from but according to the IRS the top 1% paid an average tax rate of 22.45% in 2007. Also, below I put up IRS numbers on the number of returns broken out by AGI of those who have qualified dividends and most of those returns are in the 10 or 15% marginal tax bracket and as such paid ZERO fed income tax on those. If you would like I can post the data on cap gains but that is a little harder because it includes cap gains and cap losses.
And most people do not in fact pay a higher rate in payroll taxes than what Romney paid in income taxes. The average employee paid 4.2% SS tax and 1.45 Medicare (combined 5.65% for 2011).
 
 
0 # dkonstruction 2012-09-20 10:12
This too is misleading for if you look at the effective individual tax rate for the top 1% (instead of the total effective federal tax rate) you get a figure of 19% for the top 1% (for 2007, the last year i could find these IRS figures).

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=456

Not to mention the fact that what is also not included in these numbers is the fact that the top 1% get a huge tax break by only having to pay social security taxes on the first $110,000 while all the rest their income is not taxed at all.
 
 
+7 # bmiluski 2012-09-18 11:45
Yes.....but my dear the average tax rate for the average person is 30%. All we ask is that they (the ultra rich) pay the same rate we peons (and you're probably one too) have to pay.
 
 
-7 # phantomww 2012-09-18 12:36
bmiluski,
Why do you persist in writing things that are just plain wrong. The average person does not pay a tax rate of 30% on their federal income tax.
Here is the breakout from the IRS (not from faux or anything like that but the real IRS).
2009 numbers (sorry don't have 2010 yet).
top 1% pay 36.7% of taxes with rate of 24
top 5% pay 58.7% with rate of 20.46%
top 10% pay 70.5% with rate of 18.05%
top 25% pay 87.3% with rate of 14.68%
top 50% pay 97.7% with rate of 12.5%
bottom 50% pay 2.3% with rate of 1.85%

AS someone who can read will see no one pays 30% in federal income tax (average tax rate). Thus you post is just wrong.
 
 
+2 # bmiluski 2012-09-19 10:18
I PAID 30% ON ALL OF MY EARNING....ALL.
So YOU ARE JUST WRONG.
Your rich buddies (they are your pals right?) paid less then that on a small fraction of their earnings. They don't get taxed on capital gains, nor any of their off shore bank accounts.
Wake up. Or else you'll be paying for their car elevators.
 
 
-2 # phantomww 2012-09-19 19:01
There is NO WAY that you paid 30% federal income tax. You just don't know what you are doing. I would suggest you get a tax professional to do your taxes, if you have one then get another. If you are self employed then you total might get there but that is because of SE taxes and not INCOME taxes.
And IF (you don't) you did pay 30% then that would make you one VERY RICH person so then I guess we would be talking about your rich buddies and not mine.
Here's a hint. Go to last years tax return. Look at your AGI (line 37), then look at your total tax (line 61). Now divide line 61 by line 37 and you will get your effective tax rate. If that is too hard for you then just let me know what the numbers are and I will tell you what your tax rate was. Oh please let me know if you have anything on line 56 (SE tax). Need to subtract that from line 61 because that is not an INCOME tax.
 
 
+3 # KittatinyHawk 2012-09-18 13:26
They would still have write offs that are a disgrace. Talk about reviewing the situation...tak e their tax write offs away...then we will see them squealing like the pigs they are
 
 
-5 # phantomww 2012-09-18 15:33
Their write offs are legal and many of them are limited because they make too much money. In most years, a "rich" person will lose some of their itemized deductions and personal exemption because they make "too much". Plus they get hit with the AMT that the vast majority do not have to pay. They don't qualify for education credits or the child tax credit. Even on the "hated" capital gains rate of 15%, the middle class gets an even better deal in that they pay ZERO taxes on long term capital gains and qualified dividends as long as they are in the 10 or 15% marginal tax bracket (which is most people).
 
 
+2 # bmiluski 2012-09-19 10:20
It was legal to won slaves...but moral?
The same in this case. Yes, it's legal to hire someone to get you out of paying your fair share...but moral?
 
 
-2 # phantomww 2012-09-20 08:15
so I guess that everyone who hires a tax professional or buys tax software that promises to get them the largest LEGAL tax refund is also immoral? So it is ok for someone making 60k to go to H & R Block and have them dig for all legal tax deducation and that is not moral in your mind? But then if a rich person goes to a tax professional who also digs for all LEGAL tax deductions that is not moral also or just not moral because they are RICH?
Why do you hate the rich so much?
 
 
+2 # bmiluski 2012-09-19 10:24
Oh please.......yo ur buddy mitt is going to get a $47,000.00 right off on his wife's horse. And he's another thing. The average middle-class person doesn't do long term capital gains and qualified dividends. Their busy buying groceries, paying for their kids education, and putting a roof over their heads.
 
 
-2 # phantomww 2012-09-20 08:18
So you think that the average middle class person does not own any dividend paying stock like Coke, Johnson and Johnson, Apple, Intel, Microsoft etc or own any mutual funds like Vanguard, Fidelity, T Rowe Price, American funds etc? Wow, what a narrow world you live in. How about all of the retired people who own tax free muni bond funds and thus pay ZERO federal tax on the dividends, are these only rich people?
No, it must be nice to live in your narrow world where you think that only rich have any investments. Too bad. Maybe you should stop drinking the class warfare diatribe from the communist.
 
 
-1 # phantomww 2012-09-20 08:40
To prove you are wrong (AGAIN).
From IRS 2009
total returns 140m, those with qualified dividends 25m
By income (AGI) breakout:
No AGI 741k retuns
$1-5k 1.2 MILLION returns
5-10k 1m
10-15k 1m
15-20k 993k
20-25k 849k
25-30k 895k
30-40k 1.6m
40-50k 1.6m
50-75k 3.9m
75-100k 3.1m
100-200k 5.5m
200-250k 843k
250-500k 1.2m
500k-1m 387k
1-1.5m 90k
1.5-2m 38k
2-5m 54k
5-10m 13k
10+ million 7k

So over 9 million returns were filed by people who made UNDER $50,000 yet you state that middle class don't have qualified dividends. WRONG! And most of those paid ZERO tax on those dividends because they are in the 10 and 15% tax brackets.

Please stop talking about taxes because you don't know what you are talking about like most LIBS.
 
 
+3 # KittatinyHawk 2012-09-18 13:25
Funny but these numbers do not add up with those that were shown on TV Most of the 1 % pay not more than 12% of their salary from the richest down ....only when it starts around $200,000 do we see the taxes more like 33% so stick your phony numbers where the sun is not shining today.
1% also gets more write offs than the average family and uses them to full advantage. Hell they write off a Hot Dog from a St Vendor. You are naivete to say the least
 
 
-3 # Texas Aggie 2012-09-18 09:15
[Obama] "has apologized for what he deems to be American arrogance, dismissiveness, and derision; for dictating solutions, for acting unilaterally, and for acting without regard for others; for treating other countries as mere proxies, for unjustly interfering in the internal affairs of other nations, and for feeding anti-Muslim sentiments; for committing torture, for dragging our feet on global warming and for selectively promoting democracy."

If only Obama had actually apologized for those actions and then gone ahead and stopped doing them. Instead we get a policy that continues to, by and large, expand on the actions that the Mittster says he apologized for.
 
 
0 # KittatinyHawk 2012-09-18 13:33
OB does not have full control of the USA I know Texas has the arrogance of being a Communist State but President has to go thru Channels...it is called History.

He is also Lawyered up as to what he can say without putting us to War over stupid Statements with no backing not like most here.

Global Warming...yes the fad word anymore. Where were any of you 30 years ago when we were marching in DC about it? I know in front of some TV in some gin joint, friends house or home....saying "Those Environmentalis ts are at it again. They do not know what they are talking about. Our skies are just fine" I heard you all, but we fought for Clean Air and Water without a one of you present, and you have all lived pretty nice thanks to us...well, your Republican Morons continued to allow more deregs esp the Bush's and now you all see that perhaps we weren't the Morons protesting. Nope most of you were, we knew that too. We kept fighting for your rights, for your kids rights....now it is time for you all to do your part.
A Do not Vote Republican
B Start going after the Sleazy, paid of Democrats
C Start voting third parties in...get rid of these two old dogs They have mange and need to retire, stop spreading disease
 
 
+5 # independentmind 2012-09-18 09:43
This conservative approach to diplomacy scares me - we need less "right is might" attitude, and a lot more diplomacy to stop wars and violence around the world. If Romney wins, the US will lose, lose the respect of the world, lose the war for the hearts and minds of the people and lose direction. We are also much more likely to get involved in another useless war in the middle East - Iran comes to mind - courtesy of our friends the Israeli's.
 
 
+3 # James Smith 2012-09-18 14:54
Mitt is right for once. There are legal and moral limits to free speech. You do not run for president on a platform of lies and snobbery.

No, America should not apologize for its values. Unfortunately for Mitt, he does not share those values. American should apologize when it strays from those values of freedom, fair treatment for all, and honesty. Mitt the Twit doesn't share any of those values so he cannot understand those that do. Nor does he care.
 
 
0 # reiverpacific 2012-09-18 18:12
Quoting James Smith:
Mitt is right for once. There are legal and moral limits to free speech. You do not run for president on a platform of lies and snobbery.

No, America should not apologize for its values. Unfortunately for Mitt, he does not share those values. American should apologize when it strays from those values of freedom, fair treatment for all, and honesty. Mitt the Twit doesn't share any of those values so he cannot understand those that do. Nor does he care.

Unfortuanately, I haven't seen America actually practicing those same assumed values (tabulate them) as long as I can remember.
 
 
+2 # HerbR 2012-09-18 17:43
The restraint on Free Speech is actually that on cannot FALSELY shout "Fire" in a crowded theatre. Logical, is it not, given the possibilities !!
 
 
+1 # Don Thomann 2012-09-20 10:17
"America must never apologize for its values."
Yup,
Never apologize for invading nations in the name of "National interest", solely to appropriate their oil and natural resources.
Never apologize for killing innocent "collateral damage."
Never apologize for yelling "democracy" but really meaning "Capitalism! (and MINE at that!)
Never apologize for claiming to be a "Christian Nation" while being the greatest exporter of violence in the world!
Yup,
Never apologize! Sounds American to me!
 

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