Moore writes: "There comes a point about two-thirds of the way through Zero Dark Thirty where it is clear something, or someone, on high has changed."
Portrait, Michael Moore, 04/03/09. (photo: Ann-Christine Poujoulat/Getty Images)
In Defense of Zero Dark Thirty
25 January 13
here comes a point about two-thirds of the way through Zero Dark Thirty where it is clear something, or someone, on high has changed. The mood at the CIA has shifted, become subdued. It appears that the torture-approving guy who's been president for the past eight years seems to be, well, gone. And, just as a fish rots from the head down, the stench also seems to be gone. Word then comes down that - get this! - we can't torture any more! The CIA agents seem a bit disgruntled and dumbfounded. I mean, torture has worked soooo well these past eight years! Why can't we torture any more???
The answer is provided on a TV screen in the background where you see a black man (who apparently is the new president) and he's saying, in plain English, that America's torturing days are over, done, finished. There's an "aw, shit" look on their faces and then some new boss comes into the meeting room, slams his fist on the table and says, essentially, you've had eight years to find bin Laden - and all you've got to show for it are a bunch of photos of naked Arab men peeing on themselves and wearing dog collars and black hoods. Well, he shouts, those days are over! There's no secret group up on the top floor looking for bin Laden, you're it, and goddammit do your job and find him.
He is there to put the fear of God in them, probably because his boss, the new president, has (as we can presume) on his first day in office, ordered that bin Laden be found and killed. Unlike his frat boy predecessor who had little interest in finding bin Laden (even to the point of joking that "I really just don't spend that much time on him"), this new president was not an imbecile and all about business. Go find bin Laden - and don't use torture. Torture is morally wrong. Torture is the coward's way. C'mon - we're smart, we're the USA, and you're telling me we can't find a six-and-a-half-foot tall Saudi who's got a $25 million bounty on his head? Use your brains (like I do) and, goddammit, get to work!
And then, as the movie shows, the CIA abruptly shifts from torture porn to - are you sitting down? - detective work. Like cops do to find killers. Bin Laden was a killer - a mass killer - not a general of an army of soldiers, or the head of a country call Terrorstan. He was a crazed religious fanatic, a multi-millionaire, and a punk who was part of the anti-Soviet mujahideen whom we trained, armed and funded in Afghanistan back in the '80s. But he was a godsend and a very useful tool to the Dick Cheneys and Don Rumsfields of the world. They could hold him up to a frightened American public and scare the bejesus out of everyone - and everyone (well, most everyone) would then get behind the effort to declare war on, um ... well ... Who exactly do we declare war against? Oh, right - terrorism! The War on Terrorism! So skilled were the men from Halliburton, et al. that they convinced the Congress and the public to go to war against a noun. Terrorism. People fell for it, and these rich men and their friends made billions of dollars from "contracting" and armaments and a Burger King on every Iraqi base. Billions more were made creating a massive internal spying apparatus called "Homeland Security." Business was very, very good, and as long as the bogeyman (Osama) was alive, the citizenry would not complain one bit.
I think you know what happens next. In the final third of Zero Dark Thirty, the agents switch from torture to detective work - and guess what happens? We find bin Laden! Eight years of torture - no bin Laden. Two years of detective work - boom! Bin Laden!
And that really should be the main takeaway from Zero Dark Thirty: That good detective work can bring fruitful results - and that torture is wrong.
Much of the discussion and controversy around the film has centered on the belief that the movie shows, or is trying to say, that torture works. They torture a guy for years and finally, while having a friendly lunch with him one day, they ask him if he would tell them the name of bin Laden's courier. Either that, or go back and be tortured some more. He says he doesn't know the guy but he knows his fake name and he gives them that name. The name turns out to be correct. Torture works!
But then we learn a piece of news: The CIA has had the name of this guy all along! For ten years! And how did they get this name ten years ago? From "a tip." A random tip! No torture involved. But, as was the rule during those years of incompetency and no desire to find bin Laden, the tip was filed away somewhere in some room - and not discovered until 2010. So, instead of torturing hundreds for eight years to find this important morsel of intelligence, they could have found it in their own CIA file cabinet in about eight minutes. Yeah, torture works.
In the movie, after they have the name of the courier, they then believe if they find him, they find bin Laden. So how do they find him? They bribe a Kuwaiti informant with a new car. That's right, they find the number of the courier's family by giving the guy a Lamborghini. And what do they do when they find the courier's mother? Do they kidnap and torture her to find out where her son is? Nope, they just listen in on his weekly call home to Mom, and through that, they trace him to Pakistan and then hire a bunch of undercover Pakistani Joe Fridays to follow this guy's every move - which, then, leads them to the infamous compound in Abbottabad where the Saudi punk has holed up.
Nice police work, boys!
Oh - and girl. 'Zero Dark Thirty - a movie made by a woman (Kathryn Bigelow), produced by a woman (Megan Ellison), distributed by a woman (Amy Pascal, the co-chairman of Sony Pictures), and starring a woman (Jessica Chastain) is really about how an agency of mostly men are dismissive of a woman who is on the right path to finding bin Laden. Yes, guys, this is a movie about how we don't listen to women, how hard it is for them to have their voice heard even in these enlightened times. You could say this is a 21st century chick flick - and it would do you well to see it.
But back to the controversy and the torture. I guess where I part with most of my friends who are upset at this film is that they are allowing the wrong debate to take place. You should NEVER engage in a debate where the other side defines the terms of the debate - namely, in this case, to debate "whether torture works." You should refuse to participate in that discussion because the real question should be, simply, "is torture wrong?" And, after watching the brutal behavior of CIA agents for the first 45 minutes of the film, I can't believe anyone of conscience would conclude anything other than that this is morally NOT right. You will be repulsed by these torture scenes because, make no mistake about it, this has been done in your name and mine and with our tax dollars. We funded this.
If you allow the question to be "did torture work?" then you'll lose because yes, if you torture someone who actually has the information, they will eventually give it to you. The problem is, the other 99 who don't know anything will also tell you anything to get you to stop torturing - but their information is wrong. How do you know which one of the 100 is the man with the goods? You don't.
But let's grant the other side that maybe, occasionally, torture "works." Here's what else will work: castrating pedophiles. Why don't we do that? Probably because we think it's morally wrong. The death penalty sure works. Put a murderer in a gas chamber and I can guarantee you he'll never murder again. But is it right? Do we accomplish the ends we seek by becoming the murderers ourselves? That should be our only question.
After I saw Zero Dark Thirty, a friend asked me, "During the torture scenes, who did you feel empathy for the most - the American torturer or the Arab suspect?" That was easy to answer. "Oh, God, the poor guy being waterboarded. The torturer was a sadist."
"Yes, that's the answer everyone gives me afterward. The movie actually makes you care for the tortured guys who may have, in fact, been part of 9/11. Like rooting for the Germans on the submarine to make it back to port in Das Boot, that's the sign of some great filmmaking when the writer and director are able to get you to empathize with the person you've been told everywhere else to hate."
Zero Dark Thirty is a disturbing, fantastically-made movie. It will make you hate torture. And it will make you happy you voted for a man who stopped all that barbarity - and who asked that the people over at Langley, like him, use their brains.
And that's what worked.
P.S. One final thought. I've heard fellow lefties say that even if the filmmakers didn't intend to endorse torture (Bigelow called torture "reprehensible" on Colbert the other night), the average person watching the movie is going to take it the wrong way. I believe it is the responsibility of the filmmaker attempting to communicate something that they do so clearly and skillfully (and you can decide for yourself if Bigelow and Boal did so. For me, they did.). But I never blame the artist for failing to dumb down their work so that the lesser minds among us "get it." Should Springsteen not have named his album Born in the USA because some took it to be as a salute to patriotism (Reagan wanted to use it in his 1984 reelection campaign but Bruce said no)?
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I confess, in days past, before putting on a legal hat and still wearing my old journalist's hat, I did use similar means of communicating, for example, use of the headline "Smog - What Smog?", then letting it rip and educating folks, with visuals, re. the horrors of smog, smog, smog. I learned while getting my degree in journ/comm, that the best way to get folks who probably will oppose what you have to say, to look and listen and not tune you out from the get go, is to not take an extremely strong stand in the heading (i.e. Evil Torture Sucks), but rather to slowly but surely do more subtle convincing, such as showing the horrors of evil torture, and permitting the viewer to identify with the dreadful pain. Often, such subtle but at the same time truth telling visuals (seeing terrible smog or evil torture is worth a thousand words), can persuade viewers that, indeed, torture is evil plus.
From what you have described, sounds like this film is going to entice viewership of viewers with a variety of takes on torture, and, hopefully, cause many of them to take off blinders re. the horror of evil torture.
The other question that could give us a perspective on removing aggression, ignorance, and hatred would be: "What are the ways we can be our own best friend and emanate that self-compassion toward other sentient beings and experience the sacred in all, from cleaning our bathroom and neighborhood to smiling at everyone and inviting our neighbors and legislators over for a cup of tea and chocolate cake?" Hopefully, the tea and cake is organic and local.
There are no coincidences in film-making. They didn't just so happen decide to throw torture in this movie because "it happened". If they wanted to show everything that 'happened', the film would have started in the late '70s. It would have have shown the mujahideen, US support for corrupt and oppressive monarchs in the Middle East, the situation with Israel and Palestine, and other parts of the history of events. It would have shown US airstrikes on weddings and funerals, drones killing rescuers, and the orphans, widows, and disfigured who often end up joining the cause of al Qaeda and other groups.
But then it would have been relegated to independent film festivals and art house theatres, it probably would have been made on six-figures at best, and Bigelow wouldn't have had anything to do with it. Whoever the director was would never have been granted CIA access, and would certainly be branded a terrorist-appea ser. No one could defend the film on the grounds it was "just a movie", or that critics "didn't understand art".
Either way, all the incentives are in place to make sure no one who asks the truly important questions gets the kind of play ZDT has.
Just as republicans do, many democrats focus on one or two issues, and concern themselves only with who wins. Rah rah rah.
Obama appears to have been re-elected by popular and electoral vote. While it may not have been a "landslide" which re-elected him, the President did win the election decisively...du ring a time when the economy (economy is said to be the main criteria deciding elections) was quite 'sketchy.'
As to "media progressives".. Newspapers (objective reportage) are all but a bygone. Yet, bandwidth devoted to "talk news" continues to be healthy, even growing.. exept not healthy for any voice outside right wing. In fact, all mainstream media, t.v. and radio, is now owned by and dominatated by 'conservatives. ' Luckily digital media may soon make all the above obsolete. Even as Koch Brothers, et., al, try to buy up all media, including internet, digital media continues to 'morph' in ways making it hard for monied monopolies to keep up.
That's democracy in its most organic and irrefutable form, I'm afraid. Giving one-million (Bill Maher) is nothing, I'm sure you're aware, compared to what the monied monopolistic interests (sorry but they're all on the right) give to their candidates at the State and Federal level(s). We're talking hundreds of millions.
But, and... they didn't win this election.. regardless of monopoly on all media except MSNBC... and no little amount of voter suppression thrown in.
Yea democracy.
If his idolizers had supported third party candidates, the Democratic Party would have developed differently since then.
thanks Miko - and growing and growing under Obama/Clinton ...
This is a bi-partisan deal that needs to be scrapped in the budget cuts. Of course it was a great employment generator and helped the shrub out in that way too only to help O'Bama in his struggle with employment.
I could be on the list - not first time in my life.
Makes insecure people "secure" by promoting FEAR - to manipulate
Thank you, Michael Moore, for your filmmaker's take on Zero Dark Thirty. It's now on my short list of current films to see. The only question now is whether I'm too squeamish to watch the torture scenes.
http://nsnbc.me/2013/01/20/zero-dark-thirty-the-deeper-darker-truths/
If bin Laden were truly guilty of the attack on the world trade center, then why could he not be arrested and other criminals - criminals guilty of far worse crimes and killings - and taken in. Hell, even Milosevic was taken in for trial. (He didn't make it to trial of course, and neither did his aide. They knew too much.)
I'm with you. He was dead, the U.S. carried out money making crimes, brainwashed citizens and divided them over this enterprise, lied through their teeth, and now has accepted and lauded a movie about the lie.
Any who believe torture has ended are delusional. It has and always will be a part of U.S. covert ops.
The U.S. is one country that wallows in war and war movies, regardless of the lies. The myth concerning the Alamo pretty much introduced future myths such as bin Laden and al Qaida.
reveals that only one in over 50 interviewed thought the man killed was Bin Laden.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1JWpgAWKEU
The old man shown in the CIA supplied video who is supposed to be Bin Laden is holding the TV remote in his right hand.
Bin Laden was left-handed.
In fact Benizir Bhutto talked about Osama's death on a David Frost interview about 6 months before she was assassinated. Bush di not chase Osama because 1. he knew he was dead and 2. if he were alive, he was a Bush family friend. Osama had serious kidney illness. He was visited by hei CIA friends at the American Hospital in Bahrain in August 2001 just before. 9/11. Please turn your brains back on
Thanks for your excellent video analysis of the Towers being imploded. I don't think any intelligent person could watch those and not realize it was an inside job.
Michael Moore must have seen them. So why does he still defend the lies?
"The men the American people admire most extravagantly are the greatest liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth." ... H.L. Mencken
One thing: Torture is not only on foreign soil. It is indeed going on right here in Amerika! The food industry is dumping tonnes of sodium and sugar in tinned products -- knowing full well who the majority of people who eat them and die from heart disease and diabetes complicationgs really are -- the POOR!
In California SSI recipents have been denied basic preventative dental care for four years and still on-going now. Some of the private medical insurance corporations are even denying those on SSI EMERGENCY PAIN MANAGEMENT CARE they desperately need! Thus being needlessly 'tortured' with excruciating toothaches and other related problems which indeed as dental is systemic with other medical problems can lead to DEATH! So PLEASE don't ever tell me that the US or some state governments do not torture the poor within the borders of this very country!
Dental care or the lack of it has become the 'Achilles Heel' for the poor in this country and they are DYING PAINFUL DEATHS! That should NEVER happen in America¨ SHAME! SHAME! SHAME!
However, after reading Michael Moore's review, it caused me to reflect on the previous ones, none of which explained that when the torture stopped and genuine investigation began, that was what led to the finding and killing of Bin Laden. The light went on and the torture scenes now made sense cinematically.
As a filmmaker himself, Michael Moore's review was more understanding of what the filmmakers were trying to say. Their use of an elliptical strategy to sear the sadism on display into the audience's psyches, demonstrated that torture is not only morally wrong but ineffective as well. I now plan to see the film as soon as possible.
I wish I'd read Michael Moore's review first; it's clearly more comprehensive and reliable than the others, and I probably would've seen the film by now had I done so. So much for my "rush to judgement" moment which was based on "bad initial intelligence". Mea culpa, mea culpa; I should've known better. Benghazi, anyone?
We see it as Michael does...affirmat ion that it does NOT work. And when we thought it did we lost our morality. The Bin Ladens have won every time we
gave up our precious ethics and morals and became just like them.
I have to correct you on one thing: Castrating pedophiles doesn't actually work. The only kind of treatment that has a measure of success is counseling that convinces the pedophile to stay away from children.
The use of torture was nowhere near as dangerous as the widespread support of Americans for its use.
I believe it is both disgusting and disheartening that there are Americans who are still willing to take issue with this simple unequivocal statement: Americans Don't Torture!
America can now proudly gun down any unarmed person who is suspected of being a terrorist without allowing that person due process of law. Bin Laden had never been proven to be guilty of any crime.
- that's about the only I disagree with here. I can't accept that the multibillion $$ entertainment industry is "art". yeah, once in a great while "art" slips through instead of propaganda (e.g. "300" is propaganda) or money-grubbing drivel or "real journalism" (like Moore's docs, they are journalism, not art).
On the other side, it will be interesting to see if the right wing reaches the same conclusion: that torture is portrayed in the film as being ineffective. Will we be subjected to the ravings of Fox News and Rush L on this "sell-out to the left"?
There was no way Bush would have harmed his daddy's pal.
If the US captured bin Laden at any of these points, then the war in Afghanistan would have to be over since that was the reason that we were given for the invasion. At this point, however, Obama is ready to pull out some troops and call it a day — so getting bin Laden allows him to do that “with honor.”
Michael Moore was once a hero in my mind as well. My doubts about his credibility began with his film Fahrenheit 9/11. His film highlighted evidence against the Saudis while totally ignoring the evidence against Israel such as the Mossad agents arrested for filming the fall of the Towers while celebrating. He didn't mention the 200+ Israeli spies arrested in Florida right after 9/11 in the area the highjackers were training.
He didn't mention that Larry Silverstein had collected $4 billion+ in insurance on the three towers. He didn't mention that Silverstein had said on a PBS video that he had given the order to "pull Bldg 7 on the afternoon of 9/11." He didn't mention that Silverstein and his son and daughter had failed to show up for work at the Towers on 9/11.
Michael Moore is now a member of the 1%. He has forsaken the working class.
sorry Michael Moore, you were always naive, though well intentioned, but this statement is ridiculous.
Yep Mr. Moore ever an iconoclast. Ha ha. Good try. Dear Michael Can you spin a similar tale about the Holocaust too. But really this is just too sad.
It's not about character: Jessica Chastain is simply a device upon which rather weak plot points are hung. She remains a cipher from beginning to end, and so why care about her, or her mission? Which means we're left with a plot built around externalized conflict as is the case in action films, but since this is not an action film and the plot points are mostly predictable and uninteresting, without drive or suspense, we're left with what? A hodgepodge.
Why? I think Bigelow erroneously thought she could depend on the audience's fascination with bin Laden's capture to drive interest in what is really an empty narrative. Big mistake. There's no there there. The dithering makes the film superficial, which, ironically, makes the torture scenes oddly not compelling. Ugly as they are, we've seen versions of these on TV already. Try watching Tarantino's "Reservoir Dogs" if you want the expectation of torture, not even torture itself, to make you quake.
If there's any crime committed by the filmmaker, it's this, that with all the seriousness of the underlying issues, the richness of what could have been said about them, so little was explored.
A tempest in a teapot, I say.
While I applaud the end of torture in interrogation, I don't see the positive value of sending in a bunch of hit men to bump off Osama bin Laden, who appears to me to have had nothing to do with the planning or execution of the 9/11 attacks, while the real planners and perpetrators are still walking around enjoying freedom, security, and prosperity.
A more recent phenomenon is that morality (especially that based upon religious belief systems) has morphed to the extent that telling the truth, having ethics, being fair in business dealings, having compassion for others, basic "goodness" that most of us learned in the sandbox, are no longer considered relevant, ESPECIALLY within the gospel crowd. Morality is now totally about vaginas.
I fear greatly that this nation is so far beyond redemption that we may never find our way back to basic human decency, mostly BECAUSE of the insidious crap now "believed" without any consideration of truth, logic, evidence.
But, like #genierae, I feel that we have to try, no matter how bleak our prospects are at this moment. If "Progressives" do not rise up as a political force, independent of the "Dem/Rep Corporatist Collusion Party" it will be "end of story" for the USA as we used to know it. And the "American Dream" will have become a fascist/corpora tist nightmare. We are almost there.
And earlier commenter mentioned "Bonny and Clyde" and that along with films like "Clockwork Orange" and Eastwood's "Unforgiven" really in the end sensationalized the very thing they claimed to be de-drying. While, I actually liked those three films, it was for some of their other attributes-- I did not at all for what I'd hoped were going to be the truth of their claims. Bonnie and Clyde indeed became folk-heroes of a sort as did Malcolm McDowell's character as I can remember how many people laughed after the fact for years at the "singing in the rain" scene. And sadly most memorable for "Unforgiven" is the brutality of Hackman's character as well as Eastwood's slaughter in the bar. Alas, after the fact no one thinks of these film's as anti-violent. And in time, sadly, "Zero Dark Thirty" will not be remembered for decrying torture.
They did?? I read about that, but I was stationed in New England when I saw "Bonnie & Clyde". The people I knew (Navy & civilian) agreed that the five main characters firmly convinced all of us that three empty neurotics craving endless sensation, two sad sacks who were just plain stupid, were certainly no folk "heroes"!! Instead they gave us a moral lesson of behavior to understand, but avoid.
I grew up in the South, however, and white people down there, especially weak, anxious men insecure in their sexuality or earning capacity, have a sinister habit of choosing imbeciles and madmen to emulate. I suspect that glamorizing the arrogant, immoral, self-serving, weak-brained chest-thumpers was (and is) a regional specialty.
Obama was a crowned head, as a number before him, including Bill Clinton, and especially George W.
It has to do with Obama continuing the Bush policies and even being worse than Bush on whistle-blowers.
Obama's use of drones to kill without the due process of law is against all that America used to stand for. Maybe he gets away with it because of his color. You can't criticize a black man without being labeled a racist.
Wolfowitz spitting on his hair while he proposes more global war. Art is in the eye of the beholder.
In the primary, one may vote for the best candidate but in the general election it's imperative that one vote for the best possible. In the choice between the two possibles, Romney drove me to vote Obama.
Democrat War Good
and Moore drones on and on and on.
Nor is the Ayn Rand-minded destruction of the local transit system a non sequitur. That Tacoma and its environs will soon be infamous as the largest metropolis in the industrial world without transit is due to the same Big Lie politics that fuels Mr. Moore's shamelessly toadying for Obama.
In truth the president did not end torture – note the continued operation of Guantanamo. In truth he gave the military Gestapo-like domestic law-enforcement powers and embraced the Nazi-like drone policy of murdering entire towns for harboring a single terrorist.
Again – this time with Mr. Moore as its fawning sycophant – we see the president's signature transformations from Obama the Orator back to Barack the Betrayer. The same transformations , from progressive to Randite, doomed Tacoma's bus service.
A filmmaker himself, Mr. Moore is a superb movie reviewer. But his falsehood-laden defense of the president – never mind it is no doubt motivated by understandable desires to stay off the torture table and out of the gulag – is utterly obscene.
How do you deal with no transit system? Is there a van or similar to transport those similar to yourself, as in other towns and cities?
When the most recent cutbacks go into effect in September, all weekend and holiday service will be terminated, as will nighttime service after 7 p.m., also all paratransit for elderly and disabled people. Though Pierce Transit refuses to publicly admit it, credible inside sources have said the reduction in farebox revenues resulting from the cutbacks will bankrupt the agency. Given the harsh realities of the post-American-D ream economy, this will probably end local bus service forever.
Tacoma is a seaport city of 200,678 people; the overall Pierce Transit service area, including suburbs, contains 556,908 people. The September cutbacks will make it the largest metropolis in the industrial world without adequate transit. The end of bus service, for which no date is available, will make it the industrial world's largest no-local-transi t urban area.
For details, see my blog: http://lorenbliss.typepad.com/loren-bliss-outside-agitators-notebook/2013/01/war-against-the-working-class-a-new-year-anthology.html
And - I will read your blog post, for certain.
Also, given the hatefulness evidenced by the election, any such effort here would face overwhelming opposition. The one remedial doorway, the Public Transportation Benefit District (see my blog), has been closed forever by the Tacoma City Council.
When you factor in November's unprecedented 15,513 under-votes – ballots typically cast by anti-transit “progressives” too dishonest to indicate a preference – you get an (accurate) picture of a hateful electorate in which a solid 54 percent wants to shut down the bus service – the newest form of gentrification.
About 49 percent of the Pierce Transit service area's population is lower-income (annual wages of 300 percent of poverty or less). The vote is thus a perfect example of class warfare: lower-income peoples for transit, upper-income peoples against.
Washingtonians hide their anti-transit-us er bigotry because it shows the state's allegedly “blue” politics are mostly Big Lies and hypocrisy.
Once again I find myself singing that Dylan line, “I'm going back to New York City; I do believe I've had enough.” But this time I am too old, sick and poor to ever go home again.
It isn't merely going back to New York City, I desire - it is leaving the U.S. altogether. I don't due to responsibilitie s in aiding family members who, like yourself, are limited. One does not abandon family and friends.
What are your options now? Folks assisting each other locally?
When we began demanding tax reform, the Ruling Class response was November's initiative requiring a two-thirds legislative majority for tax increases. This passed by 69-31 percent, a typical example of Moron Nation voter-idiocy that ends forever any possibility of tax reform.
Meanwhile the Republicans gained an unbeatable majority in the state Senate. By paralyzing governance (which they are doing), they will almost certainly take the House in 2014 and the governor's mansion in 2016.
Yes, marriage equality passed – but by less than one percent (50.41-49.59), which means it will probably be overturned in the next general election. The marijuana initiative (approved 54-46) is meaningless: dope smoking is no longer an index to political identity.
Why did I retire here? For the trout fishing – which is no longer accessible save by horseback, making the back country the exclusive playground of the rich.
What will people do without buses? Depend on friends and acquaintances with cars. Have none? You're fucked – and neither the voters nor the politicians give a rat's ass.
Interestingly, there are states eschewed by many liberal type Americans and in general, such as Arkansas, that do have disadvantages, but over all are in good shape and much freedom exists in especially small towns and rural areas. AND there is much excellent trout fishing that is very convenient, especially along the Spring River. Then there is the White River and others. After retiring from teaching I worked at the biggest cold water hatchery in Arkansas, which is Game and Fish, on the Spring River. Many easy access points. Weekly stocking of rainbow trout. Folks help each other get around and there are numerous people arriving to fish riding scooters for those who are not ambulatory.
Then there is Ecuador, et al.
Ah, well. I definitely understand your disappointment in your state, and the influences on it. Many citizens have given up. I have, but am happy and preparing for that uncertain future.
The west coast, as lorenbliss posts, is another story altogether, but the attitude appears to be the same. The rot within the U.S. is covered with those empty houses and endless road work.
If one were truly paranoid, one might think governments, federal and local, are herding folks and preventing an ease of movement. Those with a fair amount of money among citizens are not going to let that money go, even for a minor tax increase, and don't care about others.
"Do we accomplish the ends we seek by becoming the murderers ourselves? That should be our only question." Yes Michael, we are the murderers and the terrorists, rapists, exploiters and arms dealers of the world, and you are as guilty as Obama, the Drone Bomber, et al, for justifying the cold blooded murder of a presumably innocent man, and many more than him. And, you are so right that Obama kills more efficiently than Bush. Aren't you proud of yourself, now? You and Bill Maher are so afraid of losing the hoax called America, that you are willing to support and defend invasions into sovereign countries, and revenge murders, and untold atrocities by storm troopers. Gee, I wonder why there is so much violence in America? If you want the bloody truth of what America really is, I suggest you watch "Django Unchained".
I throw up every time I see Americans celebrating the murder of Bin Laden.
The movie is a CIA-approved and supported propaganda piece, and Mike obviously fell for it. Too bad. Thought he had some brains.
You might want to read up on facts next time you make such a statement.
If all those other critics missed it, then how many of the audience will catch it?
Good point, Scotty. I'm not in a good position to assess that since I haven't seen the movie. I'd be interested in what people who have seen it think.
I really needed to comment on Moore's false impression about castrating pedophiles. That is something about which I am knowledgable, having spent my career & my volunteer work as a child advocate.
Osama had nothing to do with 9-11. He's "WAnted" file with the FBI never mentioned that he was wanted for the crimes of 9-11.
Obama only made vague allusions to ending torture. The CIA and Speical forces continue to torture right up to this day in the same way as they always have. What is different is that there's no more propaganda about needing intelligence. Now the torture is used for what it was always used for -- to satisfy the blood lust and sadism of the CIA and special ops.
As has been pointed out elsewhere, this argument is as insulting as it is disingenuous. It can just as easily be said depiction does not imply disapproval. What about fawning, flattering depiction?
Moore is in pretty deep on this one. It is like he watched a different film than the one he is discussing, because this film is widely regarded to be sympathetic to the torturers.
So...everybody is dumb, Mike? Everybody is wrong about the intentions of this director who spends her time kissing up to intelligence agencies and the DOD?
Mike is taking this personally, as a filmmaker. One thing he oughta understand, it ain't personal. I think that's what the agent whispers right before he starts an "enhanced interrogation" session.
Folks are far too trusting in certain individuals, without digging deeper into what is actually being said or the ax getting honed on that grinder.
The responsibility of the artist is another great debate Moore himself provokes, as well debate over measurement of artistic success, with “Born In the USA” a great example. I happen to feel that a valid and less-often sought or achieved artistic pursuit is one that communicates morality to “lesser minds” even as it qualifies as true art.
here’s a recount of the gory-death-pics tryout…:
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/galleryoffakebinladens.php
…when some clamor to show the death pics gathered momentum (even from Senator Lieberman), to forestall “conspiracy theorists” and show the world the kill was for real, i told friends, they’re gonna say that after considerable deliberation, O was reluctantly opting not to show the pics out of delicacy, they were soo gruesome (we’re such sensitive, great guys) - and of course so as not to inflame passions in the evr-handy “Arab street” – those fools who hate us cause we’re so free, though maybe “selected key Congressional leaders” would be allowed to view em, and, of course, we all trust These guys, so…this is just what happened, after a while these things are easy to predict…
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