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Excerpt: "The crisis of American capitalism marks the triumph of consumers and investors over workers and citizens. And since most of us occupy all four roles - even though the lion's share of consuming and investing is done by the wealthy - the real crisis centers on the increasing efficiency by which all of us as consumers and investors can get great deals, and our declining capacity to be heard as workers and citizens."

Portrait, Robert Reich, 08/16/09. (photo: Perian Flaherty)
Portrait, Robert Reich, 08/16/09. (photo: Perian Flaherty)



Biggest Risk to the Economy in 2012

By Robert Reich, Robert Reich's Blog

31 January 12

 

reasury Secretary Tim Geithner, speaking at the World Economic Forum in Davos a few days ago, said the "critical risks" facing the American economy this year were a worsening of Europe’s chronic sovereign debt crisis and a rise in tensions with Iran that could stoke global oil prices.

What about jobs and wages here at home?

As the Commerce Department reported Friday, the U.S. economy grew 2.8 percent between October and December - the fastest pace in 18 months and the first time growth exceeded 2 percent all year. Many bigger American companies have been reporting strong profits in recent months. GE and Lockheed Martin closed the year with record order backlogs.

Yet the percent of working-age Americans in jobs isn’t much different than what it was three years ago. Yes, America now produces more than it did when the recession began. But it does so with 6 million fewer workers.

Average after-tax incomes adjusted for inflation are moving up a bit. (They increased at an annual rate of .8 percent in the last three months of 2011 after falling 1.9 percent in prior three-month period. For all of 2011, incomes fell .1 percent.)

But beware averages. Shaquille O’Neal and I have an average height of six feet. Exclude Mitt Romney’s $20 million last year — along with everyone else securely in the top 1 percent — and the incomes of most Americans are continuing to slip.

Consumer spending picked up slightly in the fourth quarter mainly because consumers drew down their savings. Obviously, this can’t last.

Meanwhile, government is spending less on schools, roads, bridges, parks, defense, and social services. Government spending at all levels dropped at an annual rate of 4.6 percent in the last quarter - and that’s likely to continue.

Some economists worry this drop is a drag on the economy. But it also means fewer public goods available to all Americans regardless of income.

Congress still hasn’t decided whether to renew the temporary payroll tax cut and extend unemployment benefits past February. If it doesn’t, expect another 1 percent slice off GDP growth this year.

Tim Geithner is surely correct that the European debt crisis and Iran pose risks to the American economy in 2012. But they aren’t the biggest risk. The biggest risk is right here at home - that most Americans will continue to languish.

All of which raises a basic question: Who or what is the economy for? Surely not just for a few at the top, and not just big corporations and their CEOs. Nor can the success of the economy be measured by how fast the GDP is growing, or how high the Dow Jones Industrial Average is rising, or whether average incomes are turning upward.

The crisis of American capitalism marks the triumph of consumers and investors over workers and citizens. And since most of us occupy all four roles - even though the lion’s share of consuming and investing is done by the wealthy - the real crisis centers on the increasing efficiency by which all of us as consumers and investors can get great deals, and our declining capacity to be heard as workers and citizens.

Modern technologies allow us to shop in real time, often worldwide, for the lowest prices, highest quality, and best returns. Through the Internet and advanced software we can now get relevant information instantaneously, compare deals, and move our money at the speed of electronic impulses. We can buy goods over the Internet that are delivered right to our homes. Never before in history have consumers and investors been so empowered.

Yet these great deals increasingly come at the expense of our own and our compatriots’ jobs and wages, and widening inequality. The goods we want or the returns we seek can often be produced more efficiently elsewhere around the world by companies offering lower pay, fewer benefits, and inferior working conditions.

They also come at the expense of our Main Streets - the hubs of our communities - when we get the great deals through the Internet or at big-box retailers that scan the world for great deals on our behalf.

Some great deals have devastating environmental consequences. Technology allows us to efficiently buy low-priced items from poor nations with scant environmental standards, sometimes made in factories that spill toxic chemicals into water supplies or pollutants into the air. We shop for great deals in cars that spew carbon into the air and for airline tickets in jet planes that do even worse.

Other great deals offend common decency. We may get a great price or high return because a producer has cut costs by hiring children in South Asia or Africa who work twelve hours a day, seven days a week. Or by subjecting people to death-defying working conditions.

As workers or as citizens most of us would not intentionally choose these outcomes but as seekers after great deals we are indirectly responsible for them. Companies know that if they fail to offer us the best deals we will take our money elsewhere - which we can do with ever-greater speed and efficiency.

The best means of balancing the demands of consumers and investors against those of workers and citizens has been through democratic institutions that shape and constrain markets.

Laws and rules offer some protection for jobs and wages, communities, and the environment. Although such rules are likely to be costly to us as consumers and investors because they stand in the way of the very best deals, they are intended to approximate what we as members of a society are willing to sacrifice for these other values.

But technologies for getting great deals are outpacing the capacities of democratic institutions to counterbalance them. For one thing, national rules intended to protect workers, communities, and the environment typically extend only to a nation’s borders. Yet technologies for getting great deals enable buyers and investors to transcend borders with increasing ease, at the same time making it harder for nations to monitor or regulate such transactions.

For another, goals other than the best deals are less easily achieved within the confines of a single nation. The most obvious example is the environment, whose fragility is worldwide. In addition, corporations now routinely threaten to move jobs and businesses away from places that impose higher costs on them - and therefore, indirectly, on their consumers and investors - to more "business friendly" jurisdictions. The Internet and software have made companies sufficiently nimble to render such threats credible.

But the biggest problem is that corporate money is undermining democratic institutions in the name of better deals for consumers and investors. Campaign contributions, fleets of well-paid corporate lobbyists, and corporate-financed PR campaigns about public issues are overwhelming the capacities of Congress, state legislatures, regulatory agencies, and the courts to reflect the values of workers and citizens.

As a result, consumers and investors are doing increasingly well but job insecurity is on the rise, inequality is widening, communities are becoming less stable, and climate change is worsening. None of this is sustainable over the long term.

Blame global finance and worldwide corporations all you want. But save some blame for the insatiable consumers and investors inhabiting almost every one of us, who are entirely complicit. And blame our inability as workers and citizens to reclaim our democracy.


Robert Reich is Chancellor's Professor of Public Policy at the University of California at Berkeley. He has served in three national administrations, most recently as secretary of labor under President Bill Clinton. He has written thirteen books, including "The Work of Nations," "Locked in the Cabinet," "Supercapitalism" and his latest book, "AFTERSHOCK: The Next Economy and America's Future." His 'Marketplace' commentaries can be found on publicradio.com and iTunes.

 

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+35 # shortonfaith 2012-01-31 08:50
I think you have to look at the % of profit made by these companies. There was a time many years ago that a company was extremely happy with a 5% profit. Now, every company has to make 40% or they cry to the government that their going broke? We the people, can't support a 40% profit every year. That other 35% is coming out of our savings, retirement, kids educations, healthcare & now homes. You can't talk better deal until you start talking what is a realistic profit margin the citizen can support. I don't care what wall street wants or says. First you give the people a good retirement & affordable healthcare, then work backwards from there. And leave out the monies spent on lobbing & lawsuit because consumers shouldn't have to pay for mistakes & those who work against them. Now with Citizen United companies can write off the money spent on buying politicians. Basically, we should put a stop on all new productions until wall street can find a way to stop sucking the citizens dry supporting their business games. Because they get to write all the rules, citizens don't have a chance?

Whatever's left over is what these companies get for profit. That's it.

You say wall street doesn't need the consumer anymore? Let's stop consumer spending & see what happens? And don't start crying socialism either. If you can't do right by the people you don't get a seat at the table.
 
 
+7 # bugbuster 2012-01-31 10:46
It's easy to forget who the real masters are in the corporate world. It's not the corporations themselves, it's the investors. If the companies don't please the investors, they don't get money. If they don't get money, they go out of business.

By law corporate officers' primary responsibility is to the investors. If you have part of *your* wages invested, then you are an investor. I didn't have any investments when I was young, but now I've been working for a wage now for 45 years, my kids are grown up, and so now I'm hoping my little retirement account doesn't completely disappear. I want to spend a little on myself, and I in this day and age, I have to have my kids' back too. I'm their backstop. So I want my investments, such as they are, to do well.

I hate what's going on because it's threatening my kids' future. But I'm not eager to see a war brought on by ideologues who can't deal with the complexity of truth.
 
 
+5 # Barbara K 2012-01-31 11:04
I agree with you, shortonfaith, the big corps forget that they really do need us, the consumers, to refill their coffers. If we all stopped spending, it would be bad for the economy, but it would wake up the big corps as to who it is who really supports them.
 
 
+5 # John Locke 2012-02-02 06:44
Barbara K: Lets take a hard look at ourselves in the mirror. We are the enemy we see...We buy from Walmart who requires EVERYTHING THEY SELL be made in China. We shop for the cheapest price and don't care if it is made in America, our shopping goal is price... The mind set of "US" is what is creating all our problems...we talk a good talk, then go and shop for the cheapest price. We can't fix this problem because too many don't really care, therefore it is up to government to fix the problem through tarrifs, and they won't. For every person who says Buy American there are 9 who say I got the cheapest ptice from China or India or Bangladesh...
 
 
+18 # Bev 2012-01-31 08:57
Usually I agree with Reich: however the blame is hardly to be placed on the insatiability of today's American workers and consumers. From the cradle to the present they have been bombarded with such subliminal messages as Walt Disney movies, a dumbded down educational system, brain washing TV commercials and programing, increasingly violent sports addiction and finally into passive economic slavery. Choices were indeed limited to the masses.
 
 
+5 # bugbuster 2012-01-31 11:19
It took us some years to figure out that a new possession would not change our behavior. We bought a chair back massage gizmo at Bed Bath and Beyond one time because we sat on the chair and it felt great. We used it a few times, then the cats took it over.

The economy would tank worse than it already is if everybody figured this out at the same time. Bed Bath and Beyond would be a little cart on the sidewalk selling bath towels.
 
 
+2 # John Locke 2012-02-02 06:47
bugbuster: Where was that Chair made?
 
 
-5 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-01-31 13:26
Subliminal messages of "insatiability" Bev speaks of are affecting our young people but not our American workers. Those who have jobs are working harder for less money & consuming less. What they want is enough money to sustain themselves & their families.

"Insatiability" belongs to the 99% AND political candidates & government leaders who are spending billions of dollars for pseudo-talking- points, extravagant travel & appertures to garner votes from people who are unemployed, worried about losing their jobs, homes, health care, & becoming impoverished, if they're not already.
Reich has a lot of "chutzpah" to blame "insatiability" on middle class workers & consumers!
The "passive economic slavery" & limited choices for the masses." Bev mentions is the MO for the middle class. You do not hear any of the candidates using it as a talking point.
 
 
+2 # John Locke 2012-02-02 06:46
Bev: I disagree, WE are the consumers, We shop for price, and We are destroying our own jobs.
 
 
+18 # zoomfactor 2012-01-31 09:18
What I fear is this: that the "message" will now be reframed in such a way to convey that austerity measures have been "successful" because of record corporate profits. When it is pointed out that the unemployment rate (and other traditional benchmarks defining a healthy economy) indicate otherwise, we will simply be told that the measures of the "new" 21st century economy is best characterized by 8% employment, a reformulated "GDP," a reformulated poverty rate, etc., etc. This way, the path is clear for continuation of policies that primarily benefit the wealthy elite, because the bottom 99% will simply lessen their expectations accordingly - the "new normal."
 
 
+5 # grandone@charter.net 2012-01-31 09:22
"Yet the percent of working-age Americans in jobs isn’t much different than what it was three years ago. Yes, America now produces more than it did when the recession began. But it does so with 6 million fewer workers."
Is this not in large part because of the productivity gains that technology has provided business? If that is the case, what is the likelihood that companies will hire any of the millions of unemployed workers who were displaed by the Great Recession. We need to create new businesses based on new markets that business will create in the future. Otherwise the drop in government spending, coupled with the productivity of American workers will result in an even worse situation. Government's proper role could be to identify opportunities for workers and new markets for businesses here and abroad.
 
 
+3 # John Locke 2012-02-02 06:51
grandone@charte r.net: Yes that is a partial solution, however we will still be right back to the same issue, those new businesses will soon discover they can make a larger profit by outsourcing, Tarrifs are what is needed to protect our jobs. Plus incentives to coerce large companies to manufacture in the US, again back to protective tarrifs.
 
 
+8 # Billy Bob 2012-01-31 09:27
"All of which raises a basic question: Who or what is the economy for?"

That all depends on your political affiliations. If you think it's for the majority of working Americans you disagree with those who have the power to do anything about it.
 
 
-48 # Robt Eagle 2012-01-31 09:53
Reich talks about common decency and extending benefits...how about an experiment: stop unemployment benefits and welfare immediately because there is no more money to support those programs, and see what happens? I would bet that there would be more people working in a hurry to feed their families. It would be an experiment, but necessity is the mother of invention and some how folks would find work in a hurry, or better yet create new businesses. OK, tax the wealthies another 5% to make the poor all warm and fuzzy, but get off the free money and you will see how fast people find work!
 
 
-7 # Billy Bob 2012-01-31 10:31
Case in point.
 
 
0 # Billy Bob 2012-02-04 19:32
Maybe I should have phrased it:

EXHIBIT A
 
 
+15 # bugbuster 2012-01-31 10:55
It's not that simple. The unemployment trap I was in for 7 months: If I accepted a lower paying job, then I would be permanently in a lower pay bracket. Most employers paying a lower wage wouldn't hire me anyway for exactly that reason. I submitted resumes and got no interviews.

You become type-cast very quickly. If I accept a fast food job after losing my engineering position, I lose everything. I'm not going to do that just because somebody like you thinks I should.

Take away unemployment benefits, and watch your own home value plummet, or your own rent skyrocket.
 
 
+3 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-01-31 13:59
BugBuster: You speak from experience and what you say is true. Is there any way you can get a grant or loan to further educate yourself in a more specialized field of Engineering? Engineers are needed in Biomedical engineering, and other areas, also
 
 
+5 # John Locke 2012-02-02 07:13
bugbuster: Don't take this wrong, but, You made Robt Eagle's point. What he was saying is if there were no unemployment compensation you would have taken that Fast Food job to support your family or buy food or pay rent. That is the Republican's theory, cut off benefits and make us take those low paying jobs just to survive, that would also bring down the US Standard of living and make us equal to other thirld world countries... if you're a capitalist or on their doll it makes perfect sense. But for the rest of us it is enslavement. FYI Fast Food is the fastest growing industry and hires a large percentage of people, but at minimum wage.
 
 
+3 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-01-31 13:54
Robt Eagle: Are you accounting in the loss of jobs which have gone overseas and the millions of workers whose jobs have been taken over by technology and computers?
 
 
0 # Billy Bob 2012-02-01 06:39
Are their two of you, or are you letting a callous conservative who couldn't care less about those lost jobs borrow your computer?
 
 
-1 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-01 14:28
Billy Bob: If you are speaking to me in regard to..."Are there two of you"...& please forgive me if you're not & let me know so I can apologize to you. There is only one person here using my computer. I'm a logician, philosopher, educator, researcher, writer & political activist which has taught me to listen astutely & to give careful credence to what and how other people express themselves. To be open minded to diverse points of view & to reflect & analyze before responding.
One of the posters, BEV spoke about the "limbic system" and {adrenal gland} which causes people to go on automatic pilot and REACT in a "fight or flight" mode ("fear or denial") rather than to respond mindfully with insight. It is my intention to respond mindfully in any setting at all times. I hope this is helpful, Billy Bob!
 
 
0 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-01 19:39
BillyBob: Will you answer my posts,please. I have to tell you this Post asking "Are their two of you..." is the funniest comment on any Post I've ever read.
 
 
+2 # John Locke 2012-02-03 14:17
Billy Bob: I had to remark about your comment...I couldn't stop laughing, very cute and cleaver!
 
 
0 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-01 14:04
robert Eagle has made an interesting comment here. it's too bad so many of the "Liberal-Minded" on this Post are so quick to negate any suggestion or Post that offers a new or novel way of viewing
or approaching a subject. Conservatives like to call "Liberals" "Elite" meaning "Intellectuals". Intellectuals worthy of being called that are broad-minded, look at both sides of an argument or issue and never write someone off or negate their ideas without reflection. Laughing at people and bullying them is antithetical to the intellectual & to common decency.
 
 
+5 # John Locke 2012-02-02 06:53
Robt Eagle: You can't really be serious, I think your a shill planted here, No one can be so consistently wrong and be real!
 
 
+15 # lorenbliss 2012-01-31 09:56
What Mr. Reich describes should be termed "the Wal-Mart syndrome" -- the tendency of economically oppressed workers to finance their own subjugation by a frantic quest for affordable goods.

But it's also something far worse: the dark side of the Internet, which by its globalization of the Wal-Mart syndrome furthers the transformation of Earth: first into a slave planet, eventually into a planet of death, inhabitable only by cockroaches and/or alien species of cockroach ancestry.

All of which is another example of how capitalism -- infinite greed as maximum virtue -- is the ultimate doomsday virus, even for the One Percent, who like all parasites eventually destroy their host.

Is there a greater example of Absolute Evil anywhere in human history?
 
 
-2 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-01-31 16:08
lorenbliss: Hitler has been known to fit the bill.
 
 
+4 # lorenbliss 2012-01-31 20:22
Hitler destroyed millions, no question: 6 million Jews; 35 million Soviet citizens (military and civilian casualties combined); another 15 million casualties amongst the European allies including the United States.

But that total -- 50 million murdered by Hitler -- is nothing compared to the death toll inflicted by capitalism: industrial accidents, vehicular accidents, wars between capitalist factions (including both world wars), cancer and other diseases caused by capitalist toxins, the deaths of the species with which we share this planet and above all else the death of Planet Earth itself.

Not ten Hitlers -- not even ten thousand Hitlers working triple shifts 24/7/365 -- could equal the past, present and future damage inflicted by the capitalists. The doomsday function of capitalism has no precedent in human history.
 
 
-2 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-01 14:47
LorenBliss, You are an adept historian but to further explain my prior comment:
Absolute evil is generally used in a singular sense rathar than diffusely and pluralistic. You are describing the evils of Capitalism in a much larger and pluralistic sense with all the diverse categories leading to more diverse sub-categoriese. You should be writing about
"The doomsday function of capitalism.." using a hierarchal graph to demonstrate your exposition.
However, "Absolute Evil" describes Hitler
singularly and once we have established that the meglomania, psychosis,paran oia, sadism and grandiosiy that describes Adolf Hitler was and is a depiction of "Absolute Evil"; we do not need ten or ten thousand Hitlers to make it more applicable. It would be redundant.
 
 
+4 # John Locke 2012-02-02 07:28
lorenbliss: I think there was a slight exaggeration in your post, Lets not belittle what Hitler, with the aid of the Bush family, did to the world ...The Bush family still have this fascists mind set and are more responsible than you know for undermining our democracy. But, GM, Ford, ITT, and Standard Oil played an eqwual part with Wall Street... I suggest we know who the enemy really is...
 
 
+4 # John Locke 2012-02-02 07:21
Dorian was right: Hitler used Slave Labor, they weren't given any money and were worked until they died or could no longer work then executed... Prescott Bush was an example, his companies used Slave labor which continued until his company's assets were seized in 1942 under the Trading with the Enemy Act, which has led more than 60 years later to a civil action for damages being brought in Germany against the Bush family by two former slave labourers at Auschwitz.

Another example, Early US Plantation workers all were slaves and were not paid.
 
 
+1 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-03 16:48
Actually, John Locke,they weren't executed which would have been a kinder way to get rid of them. The Jews were burned alive in showers in Concentration
Camps, such as Auschwitz. The Holocaust is the most inhumane tragedy in history.
Thanks for your comment, John. You're a phenomenal historian.
 
 
+1 # John Locke 2012-02-03 21:52
dorianb@fuse.net: I used the term execution as a metaphor...The IG Farben gas used in the consentration camps i equate to execution!
A little more history... Nelson Rockefeller's protg, Henry Kissinger began his early service to the "old money global elite" by recruiting Nazi scientists and "SS" officials to America through a secret Counter-Intelligence Corps (CIC) project that evolved into the Central Intelligence Agency's (CIA) infamous "Project Paperclip." Throughout World War II, the Rockefellers partnered with German industrialists as arranged by their lawyers and business managers-John Foster and Allen Dulles (closely associated with Skull and Bones alumin). These men clearly directed American intelligence agencies to serve the financial interests of the Rockefeller's Standard Oil Company that partnered with Germany's leading industrial organization-I.G. Farben. At the close of WWII, the I.G. Farben building in Frankfort, protected from allied bombings from the highest levels of military command, became CIA headquarters. Rockefeller then dispatched another lawyer and banking official, John J. McCloy, (Skull and Bones), to disperse their German assets to form the modern day petrochemical/pharmaceutical combine known as the Bayer corporation (maker of CIPRO for anthrax), There is so much more that you will find hard to swallow!
 
 
+13 # lcarrier 2012-01-31 10:08
Capitalism, as Karl Marx well knew, results in an enormous increase in productivity. Couple that with globalism and you have a poisonous brew that precipitates a "race to the bottom." Adam Smith foresaw such a result, but he thought that patriotism would protect the home market. Robert Reich has shown that, without regulation of markets, Smith's conjecture has no basis.
 
 
+9 # maddave 2012-01-31 10:13
WE THE PEOPLE ARE NOT TH BAD GUYS HERE: Basic to this argument is Henry Ford who said that workers must make enough money to buy the autos that they make. He knew that if all money goes to the top and remains there, the economy will die.

So, by the numbers:
1. Inflation is always with us.
2.Since 1970 production & profits have increased but that largess wasn't shared with labor.
3. Real wages remain flat for 40 years.
4. Workers feel the squeeze & cannot "buy what they make".
5. Intense advertising increases "desire" for US goods.
6. To cut costs & consumer prices, workers are fired & production is moved overseas.
7. Remaining workers can again buy the highly advertised, lower cost goods.
8. Walmart grows & retail stores close - more unemployment.
9. Other manufacturers "save money" by shutting down & moving jobs offshore.
10. Fewer US workers make fewer dollars & WalMart explodes!
11. Reagan & Bush tax cuts/breaks finance waves of businesses moving offshore.
12. Still more workers are un-or-under employed.
13. People live on credit cards & cut into their home equity.
14. Etc, etc .
15, You know the rest - you saw it happen. The whole economy turned to s***!
There's much, much more but space precludes!

Conclusion: Don't you DARE try to blame American workers for this greed-induced debacle!
 
 
+3 # bugbuster 2012-01-31 10:27
When you go out (or on line) to buy something, and you are offered two identical items, one priced at $16 and one priced at $20, and that's all you know about them, which one will you buy?

It doesn't make you a bad guy if you buy the $16 product. It's probably cheaper because the manufacturer's costs are lower. How many times have you made such decisions without asking questions? Unless you really are better than everybody else, probably lots of times.
 
 
+4 # maddave 2012-02-01 23:23
You missed the point, Bugster!

The 1% spends 90% of their time blaming Unions for the cost of goods and inflation in the USA. Their mantra is: "WE had to move because the Unions were bleeding us dry." Well, if that is the case why is it that Germany - with strong Unions and the highest wages amongst the First World countries - is economically stable, has universal single payer health care, an increasing standard of living . . . and still manages to maintains a favorable balance of trade - ie., Germany exports more than she imports.
 
 
+4 # bugbuster 2012-01-31 10:21
The nation state is incompatible with the trans-national corporate world. As a result, society is dividing into haves and have-nots. Haves are the top 1% *and* those who can do relatively lucrative work and maintain a middle class lifestyle. That's a lot of us, but a lot who are talented but not in the right ways are struggling now.

Workers gifted with exceptional vision and manual dexterity do well in complex tasks of production. Outsourcing has hurt them. Same with many knowledge workers--technicians, technical support. It used to be that if you could sell, you would eat. People who could sell were the life blood of business. Gifted salespersons are now competing with Internet.

You don't have to be in the 1% to have skin in this game, so it's not as simple as let's do away with all of it and the hell with profit. Without productive and profitable business, poverty and hunger would explode into unimaginable magnitude.

I don't know the answer, but it does seem that continued pressure by non-violent direct action, protest, and the kind skillful manipulation of media we have seen by the Occupy movement has to be part of the mix.

Underneath all of what's going on is still a population of basically decent human beings. People will need to continue following their self-interest, but they must also resist the unnecessary excesses we are seeing in Wall Street and Congress. It doesn't have to be this bad.
 
 
-19 # MidwestTom 2012-01-31 10:22
I went to lunch and couldn't help but notice that the Pilot truck stop is hiring, McDonald's in hiring, the truck wash is hiring, and the Arby's is hiring. All had signs out looking for workers. What is wrong with this picture? Why are there jobs available and unemployment at near record levels?
 
 
+12 # Billy Bob 2012-01-31 10:30
Have you tried paying for daycare at minimum wage?
 
 
+3 # leedeegirl 2012-01-31 17:43
Quoting
Have you tried paying for daycare at minimum wage?


Has MidwsetTom tried paying for ANYHING at minimum wage????
 
 
-4 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-01 15:01
MidWest Tom is talking about not giving up and seeing the glass as half full and rather than seek pity to seek a solution to one;s unemployment problem. Leedeegirl
why don't you pose your question to TOM rather than the other Posters. It would be more respectful and show initiative.
 
 
0 # Billy Bob 2012-02-02 07:29
Please note my comments below.
 
 
+4 # maddave 2012-01-31 10:58
Here's the picture, Tom:
Those jobs are and always have been mostly itinerant-manned. Unfortunately, the workers filing them comprise no part of the "solid US middle class". They're honorable & need filling, but they never were and, God willing, never will be intended as permanent resting spots for engineers, bankers, machinists & other skilled workers who have been knocked out of work by downsizing and jobs migrating overseas.

A friend of mine - an experienced manufacturing engineer - did not take unemployment benefits. Instead he took a job pumping gas in order to bridge the gap between jobs. I applauded his subjugating his ego, but it's clear that he is unique.
 
 
+3 # bugbuster 2012-01-31 11:39
Time will tell if he was wise. While he's pumping gas, he could be scouring the nationwide job market for another engineering job. If his experience is like mine was, he'll end up in Timbuktu on a short contract with some scam "defense contractor" with obsolete computers and no software but lots of gear that looked good to clueless observers. Bad as it was, it kept me in the biz until I got a real job.
 
 
-4 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-01-31 15:36
Good for you, bugbuster. Too many give up on what they are professionally trained to do.
 
 
-1 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-01 15:23
Why the minus's? Is it BUGBUSTER you are negating for having the gumption to work at a "short contract-not-to-his-liking-job" which he states, "Bad as it was, it kept me in the biz until I got a real job." High 5 for the BIGBUSTER!!!

Or are you negating me for giving BB the credit he deserves for his initiative, & using his brain, & doing what needed to be done; showing up everyday, putting in the time, doing unpleasant work untll he was able to move on to a job he wanted.
 
 
+2 # maddave 2012-01-31 16:33
bugbuster: It is ALWAYS wise to take responsibility for ones' own success, failure, happiness and/or misery! You got screwed, right? Well that happens occasionally, but you kept going & landed on your feet as a wiser man. Don't bitch. Brag! You won. That experience was part of growing up - regardless of your age!

As for the guy who screwed you? That's between him and his conscience, if he has one. In any event, he's history. Think positive. Get on with your life.
 
 
-1 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-01 14:57
I often disagree with MIDWEST TOM's comments but why 17 minus's here, Posters? Tom has made an excellent point with specific examples (ie), "Pilot truck stop". etc. and asks a question that deserves consideration: Tom asks..
"Why are there jobs available and Unemployment at near record levels?" What I would like to know is why so many Posters give no thought or consideration to opinions and ideas that do not fit into a black and white, yes or no way of
generalizing which is stifling to the innovation and creativity which comes from thinking out side the box. It's called being "Open Minded"!
 
 
0 # reiverpacific 2012-02-02 18:05
Quoting
I went to lunch and couldn't help but notice that the Pilot truck stop is hiring, McDonald's in hiring, the truck wash is hiring, and the Arby's is hiring. All had signs out looking for workers. What is wrong with this picture? Why are there jobs available and unemployment at near record levels?

There are probably people quitting regularly from these latter day treadmills and workhouses after being squeezed dry and paid next to nothing. Add Walmart to the list.
 
 
-1 # barbaratodish 2012-01-31 10:48
"...(T)he lion's share of consuming and investing is done by the wealthy..." REALLY? How much do you, Robert Reich spend on consuming and investing? Multiply your respose exponentially and then write about THAT! Most wealthy get everything for free, they hardly spend to consume, instead they, and you, too, as a brand ARE consumed. Case in point: did you pay for your photo above that is continually used? lol
 
 
+2 # Ellioth 2012-01-31 12:22
What is the economy for? What's the purpose and role of business in the 21st Century? If it's the old mindset - "maximizing short term profits for a narrow few at all costs" - then we are doomed to simply repeat the mistakes of the past and the middle class will be destroyed for the benefit of a very few. With 3 billion more people around the world coming into the middle class by 2030
American companies are not financially compelled to make sure Americans have enough money to buy their stuff. Apple's designs are wonderful; their manufacturing practices are awful. Is Apple an example of success to be honored and held high? If we define success as we have in the past,looking out 25-30 years, we will likely find more technologies and cheaper labor doing more work done by American workers. Is there no such thing as duty to country and its people, or has business become completely unhinged from country (except, of course, when it comes to subsidies / corporate welfare?)?
America and her people (except for the 1%) have been sold down the river by the unholy alliance of money and politics and unless we break those bonds, we're screwed.

Bob Reich - though I admire and agree with you and much of your writing, I believe it was Bill Clinton that helped ignite this mess by signing Glass-Steigal and give the first pen to Sen. Phil Graham, a real dog. Certainly, this theft of our treasury and values began with Reagan; Bill Clinton fueled the fire. Why?
 
 
+9 # Buddha 2012-01-31 14:15
Why? Because the stockholding Ownership class, to which the members of Congress certainly belong, benefit hugely by our neoliberal tax and trade policies. Neo-liberalism took off under Reagan, and these "free-trade" bills continue to this day under Administrations of both parties (Obama just got one passed last year)...and it is no coincidence that as this started, the real wages of American labor, the "bottom 80%", stagnated, while the wealth of the top 1% took off. Our nation could withstand these policies if we also then appropriately taxed those being so enriched by sending jobs overseas, and used these taxes to reinvest in our nation, our schools and universities, our infrastructure, our energy systems, our research, etc., and thus put people back to work who's jobs were sent away. But we combine the incentivizing of offshoring with the simultaneous shift of the tax burden away from capital and the SuperRich onto the struggling working class, and the entire house of cards is collapsing...
 
 
+1 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-01-31 15:54
Buddha: Why can't Obama understand what you are saying. If he does understand, he has no intention of doing what you suggest. I wish you were running for POTUS. The Obama Apologists have to get a grip on what has been going on the past 4 years."Reagan & those"free-trade" bills continue to this day under...both parties(Obama just got one passed last year).."..."the entire house of cards is collapsing..." This is what's happening.
 
 
+1 # Billy Bob 2012-02-01 06:38
I'm having trouble reconciling your sympathies here with your other comments on this thread.

Could it be that, instead of a "progressive" trying to get the Democratic Party back on track, you're nothing but a troll who'll use any words you can think of to further the conservative agenda, even if it means temporarily mouthing liberal words against a President who's too conservative to represent the Democratic Party?
 
 
-1 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-01 16:49
Billy Bob: I could/would NEVER be a troll because the most important thing to me as a human being is my INTEGRITY & I am non-negotiable. Agendas, skirting the truth, speaking inauthentically , not acting in sync with my values is not in my repertoire. I have no time for such things.I travel around the county every other week & present educational seminars. I also have children, grand-children, do research & write.

I am extremely disappointed in Obama & have been a liberal political activist most of my adult life. I grew up in GR MICH. President Ford was a friend of our family & a very good person & I voted for him but have supported & worked for Democratic candidates otherwise. I was an avid Viet Nam Protester, Feminist & active in Civil Rights in the 60's. I am upset about Obama signing the NDD Detention Detainment bill & with his political game playing with the XL Pipeline. WHY has he not closed Guantanamo? He's too conservative, a weak leader & poor negotiator & he doesn't have a clue about what to do about the economy & little concern about SS, medicare, medicaid, education, social services. Who can believe his rhetoric anymore?

Republican Party fascism, religiosity rhetoric, anti-women tea party talk is so regressive, devoid of compassion & common sense; it's dangerous. I want Hillary Clinton(P), Bernie Saunders (VP) What about you?
 
 
+1 # Billy Bob 2012-02-02 07:28
I agree that Obama is too conservative. Your opinions are also too conservative. Hillary would have been bombing Iran already. She's not exactly more liberal than Obama.

Your refusal to allow for the fact that you haven't walked a mile in other people's shoes and your unwillingness to accept that some people NEED financial help is an example of YOUR conservatism - NOT OBAMA'S.

I see now that you went to college in the '60s. No wonder you paid for it with a scholastic scholarship. Have you actually looked into the way college has been paid for since the late '80s? I don't think you have.

I went to a "cheap" public college for my undergrad and didn't know ANYONE who didn't get some kind of financial help from their parents - NO ONE AT ALL.

I partially paid for it by working 72 hours a week at a meat packing plant in the summers. For this, I earned $7.00 an hour, until they CLOSED THE FACTORY. This was in the late '80s. I had an older brother who worked for the same factory in 1970. He made over $14.00 an hour.

I ended up thousands of dollars in debt, once I was old enough to claim the independance I already had and was capable of qualifying for a high interest loan.

My brother NEVER worked during the school year because his summers paid for the whole thing. With the extra cash he had LEFT OVER he travelled and bought a stereo.

SPARE US THE LECTURES ABOUT "HARD WORK AND DETERMINATION".
 
 
-2 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-02 21:40
Hillary is more intelligent & determined than Obama. She is a strong leader & negotiator. She knows what she wants & won't stop until she gets it. Hillary is a Power House and the most respected politican of the day. If Hillary should run for POTUS in 2012, she'd win on her own merits. If Obama wins in 2012 he'll win because he's the lesser of two evils. Winning the election for Obama is precarious, despite the flawed opposing
candidates. The latest prediction is that unemployment numbers are expected to rise around the time of the election.
 
 
+1 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-03 20:15
Changed my mind after reading Bernie Saunders editorial. I support Bernie Saunders for President running as a third party candidate. The man is brilliant. Absolutely brilliant and his priorities are right on target.
 
 
0 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-03 21:00
Billy Bob: I do not consider myself a "Progressive" intent on getting the Democratic Party back on track. Why? Because both parties are fascist, & Neo-Conservative. why would I vote for a "Democrat" who has forfeited our right for due process? You know as well as I do that the next thing on the cutting block is SS, MC, Medicaid, educational programs. Internet hacking compromising freedom of speeech. As far as being a "Progressive"; have you read the rampant anti-semitic posts? I find nothing 'progressive" in that. Do you find anti-semitic remarks offensive? I want to puke when I read them.
 
 
+1 # Billy Bob 2012-02-04 10:04
If what you say is true, you are a progressive (although I prefer the word liberal for reasons I've stated on other threads.) Just because you disagree with the Democratic Party (that calls itself "progressive"), doesn't mean you're not one. It just means the party has become conservative lite.

Anti- semitic is one thing. Anti-Israeli foreign policy is another. Progressives aren't anti-semitic. But most progressives are against Israeli foreign policy.
 
 
-2 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-01-31 15:46
Ellioth: The last time I recall noone complaining about the economy or a bipartisan congress was when President Bill Clinton was President. If he were our President today he'd be able to problem solve and get us out of this mess, which he never would have gotten us into. Nor would he sign a bill of unlimited detention without due process.Bill Clinton is a champion POTUS in the likes of FDR, JFK and TR. He was and is totally committed to the citizens of the US aand is doing great work in Haiti to subvert poverty & disease. If by any good fortune, HRC decides to run for POTUS, Hillary with Bill's assistance could fix our economy, which is something no POTUS candidate running currently is capable of.
 
 
+3 # John Locke 2012-02-02 12:13
dorianb@fuse.net: Please, Slow down for a moment. Bill Clinton signed “The North American Free Trade Agreement” or NAFTA in 1993. The agreement came into force on January 1, 1994. Since NAFTA was enacted, U.S. manufacturing employment has fallen by 5 million jobs. Bill Clinton was NO FDR, JFK,OR TR. He was also involved with the CIA and the drugs being run through Mina AK for Iran Contra and the Medellan cartel... Bill clinton was a part of the problem!
 
 
0 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-02 17:30
John Locke, I accept your criticism & understand your feelings about Bill Clinton because you have stated your information so clearly. Please, accept my feelings for Bill and Hillary, both of whom I worked for & supported. Not because they are flawless, but because, they have a heart for the people and they are so smart. If anyone can solve our problems at home & abroad, it's Hillary & Bill.
 
 
0 # BellBuoy 2012-01-31 13:41
There are too many uncounted externalities in this unsustainable equation. The "Free Market" is so tilted to favor the most ruthless players, and the costs to the ecosystem that supports us are left out of the definitions of "success" and "productivity", that something has to give. When the hurricane hits L. A. or Washington D.C. or the unemployed start firing on the mansions, then we'll know it's "game over". Until then, we're rearrainging the deck chairs on the Costa Concordia.
 
 
-11 # Robt Eagle 2012-01-31 14:28
So let me get this straight, it is ok to have unemployment go for 99 weeks, and be able to get food stamps, and get welfare too if you have enough kids to make "the system" provide subsistence level for you and your family? Get real, if you have any sense of dignity you go pump gas, dig a ditch, caddie for the wealthy, do what ever you need to do to make it. When I was thrown out of my house at age 16 I worked three jobs and went to schol and got a college degree. When I got married I studied my ass off to get through testing to be able to get certifications to get a better job with more possibilities. And when my kids needed diapers and I was out of cash, I went back to caddying for the rivh to pay for my kids Huggies, and I never asked the government for a dime. If it was even out there I would have been embarrassed to have taken the welfare. Government is a scapegoat for real American workers of the past who struggled and suffered and sweat to do better. Today everyone expects it to be handed to them. Well it's over, go out and earn your good fortune and stop whining. Be an American success story!
 
 
-7 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-01-31 16:02
Robt Eagle: i gave you a plus and another minus came out! Sorry! I like your courage and dignity. It's self respect. That doesn't mean I don't empathize with the unemployed but I have to say I'm like you. I too have worked 2-3 jobs while getting an upper graduate degree on scholarship & never even thought about taking welfare.
 
 
0 # maddave 2012-01-31 16:55
Dorian & Eagle apparently worked hard to get where & what they got, but I have no sympathy for either of them. Did either one of them ever have to grovel - almost on their knees before a tight-assed trust administrator- to get another measly two thousand bucks to pay their fraternity dues? Or were they forced to drive a two-year-old, used generic stripped down Dodge in the midst of a fleet of new BMW's & Porsche's . . . and what about not having free access to your dad's sky-box?

Life up here in the 1% ozone-level is no bed of roses! You'd know that if you ever tried it!

(Not)
 
 
-3 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-01-31 22:34
MADDAVE: YOU ARE PATHETIC!
 
 
0 # Billy Bob 2012-02-01 06:35
dorianb@fuse.net: Does it give you enjoyment to belittle people?

Does this make you a better person or make conservatives look superior to liberals?

I'm going to guess there wasn't a strong English requirement where you got your grad degrees.
 
 
-1 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-01 17:06
Billy Bob: I wrote you a long reply to your last remark. Please tell me where I have belittled people, MADDAVE wrote a cruel post about trust funds, & luxury automobiles to down grade Mr Eagle and myself for working at minimum wage jobs while getting graduate degrees on scholarship and I started writing a reply and then realized he was making a sick joke so that is the reason for my short comment. His Post was mean and belittling which is a pathetic way to comment. If you read my comments and the Posts I comment on carefully you will see I never write insulting remarks. I took the time to explain some of my background(poli tically & professionally) to you in my prior post so there is no reason to elaborate. You are inquisitive about me so ask me more questions if you wish but be specific. I must be rather inquisitive about you, as well or I would not take the time to comment to your questions as I have been doing. Please, inform me what you find lacking in my English and or writing. Please.
BTW, I am a professional writer.
 
 
0 # Billy Bob 2012-01-31 16:31
Would you be embarrassed to ask for help if you had no spouse and were homeless? Would your pride get in the way of your children's right to eat?
 
 
-13 # Robt Eagle 2012-01-31 17:22
My children do not have the "right" to anything. God gave me a body and a mind that I have used pretty hard, living and doing more than most could do in three lifetimes. My children would never starve at my irresponsibilit y. I have nsurance to protect their need to eat if I became disabled or died. I would never become homeless because I do not live lavishly and exceed what is affordable and I save for bad times. I never ask for a hand out, yet I donate to those who might need a helping hand and it is called giving to charity. Do not tax me for those less fortunate, let us give out of the kindness of our hearts. Having the government tax and then dole it out just adds to corruption and administration that erodes the value of what should be charity. Better yet, get up off your sorry butt and provide for yourself and who ever you are responsible for. Take responsibility for your actions and inactions. Get some self discipline and do, don't just try, do and make it happen. Everyone in America has the same opportunity to succeed, most never take advantage of the opportunity. Those who risk and work hard deserve the rewards of their efforts and achievemnets. Why should those who have made bad choices be served by the winners in society who risked and worked their butts off for a better life? Don't give me the BS that they were more fortunate. You have the same opportunity, just never gave it the effort and made it happen like the success stories.
 
 
+5 # Billy Bob 2012-01-31 18:30
Are you saying the homeless lived too lavishly?

If you can't afford food how would you pay for insurance?

If you're interested in making a self-help motivational video, might I suggest you film it in a neighborhood with a high population of homeless people?

By the way, your children don't have the "right" to anything? SERIOUSLY? You realize I'm not talking about adult children here, right? I'm talking about CHILDREN. If CHILDREN don't have the "right" to eat, in your opinion, might I suggest you have absolutely no morals whatsoever.

Perhaps your problem is with the MAMMALIAN CLASS. You see, as mammals, one of our adaptive traits is that we care for our young. Maybe you'd feel more at home in a more cold-blooded class. Do you ever get the urge to EAT your children?
 
 
-2 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-01 01:34
Robert Eagle said nothing about the home-less living Lavishly. He said he does not live lavishly. He gives to the needy out of the kindness of his heart. Taxes are a major issue in this election and he's entitled to express his opinion b/c we still live in a free country. Liberals promote & want to protect freedom of speech last time I heard
 
 
0 # Billy Bob 2012-02-01 06:10
He said:

"I would never become homeless because I do not live lavishly and exceed what is affordable and I save for bad times"

You can read it for yourself. It's not that hard.
 
 
0 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-03 17:46
Billy Bob: Good for Robert Eagle. He's self righteous, narrow minded, lacks a generous heart & compassion for people who are in need, which I NEVER said any-where is in sync with my values or how I live my life. I'm a medical person, Billy Bob & give more free services away than I earn. I am acutely aware of and responsive to people in need. On the other hand, give Mr. Eagle, who may be a shill, credit for never exceeding " what is affordable" being able to "save for bad times"...I don't know a lot of people who can say that today, including myself. How about you? What you don't seen to understand, Billy Bob is a person and particularly an educator can have totally different values than someone & still fell sympathy for them. I sympathize with RE because his wife died of cancer & because he's myopic, stingy & lives a pocket-sized life. I can't live like that. I don't think like him. but,I give him credit, despite his all or nothing arrogant statements for raising kids by himself. Racism, anti-semitism, bigotry & meanness I do care about.
 
 
0 # Billy Bob 2012-02-04 10:09
Nice response. Still, you gotta admit that a lot more people would save if they could afford it, and a lot more people would work hard at their jobs if they had them, and a lot more people would take crappy jobs if that option didn't leave their young children abandoned with the risk of being taken away for neglect. The "robbed eagle" has no compassion for anyone else. That alone makes it not matter. Self-discipline is not a conservative trait, even though he thinks it is. A lack of compassion is a conservative trait, and all the self-discipline in the world won't fix the economic situation of millions of Americans who the robbed eagle couldn't care less about.
 
 
0 # John Locke 2012-02-04 14:35
Billy Bob: again a very clever response...I especially like the part
"Do you ever get the urge to EAT your children?" You have a great sense of humor! again I can't stop laughing....
 
 
+7 # Billy Bob 2012-01-31 18:33
By the way, if you honestly think "Everyone in America has the same opportunity to succeed", you have obviously led a very sheltered life, regardless of whatever narrative you've fashioned for yourself.
 
 
0 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-03 17:52
Billy Bob, The man hasn't lived a very sheltered life.He's lived a very insecure life which can keep a person from evolving into the kind of human being who feels concern and compassion for other people.
 
 
0 # Billy Bob 2012-02-04 11:35
He still hasn't lived in the shoes of the people he insults. Until he does, or at least has some first hand experience of the challenges they face, which are MUCH WORSE THAN HIS, he is sheltered.
 
 
+6 # colvictoria 2012-01-31 18:45
Robt Eagle "Everyone in America has the same opportunity" I was moved by your story and I admire your attitude and conviction but I would have to disagree with your comment. I don't know who you are but if you are a white male and speak English you have an advantage.
It is a fact that in the U.S. women still get paid less than men. Racism is alive and well despite the fact we have a "black" president. In some communities blacks are facing UE rates of more than 20%. If you are Latino and undocumented you are exploited, underpaid, harassed and hated. If you are Muslim you are suspect, bullied, maligned and considered a terrorist sympathizer. If you are over 60 and unemployed you are too old and nobody wants to hire you. This is the state of our country classist, racist, xenophobic, ageist, sexist.
I am glad for you but it is not as easy as you paint it for many groups of people.
 
 
-5 # Robt Eagle 2012-02-01 05:13
colvictoria, don't give me that BS. I know plenty of minorities who have become success stories and grew up way less than middle class. One friend from jr hs was blacker than anyone I ever met. Paul came from a very poor family and managed to become an investment banker, is retired and has successful children and some beautiful grandchildren. Paul never pulled the race card, he just worked his butt off harder than others of any color or race. I work on the ocean saving lives with people of all backgrounds, including blacks who aren't supposed to be able to swim. A great friend from my youth was a sensationation swimmer and saved hundreds of lives and we all respected him. Byron never asked to be anything special, he didn't need to...he was special and super talented. If you are great, no one cares about your ethnicity or race.
 
 
+1 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-03 18:14
Robert Eagle:
Who ever said "Blacks...aren't supposed to be able to swim?" That's a racist remark! You also say, "If you are great, no one cares about your ethnicity or race". Are you saying a person has to be "great" to be exempt from racial & ethnic prejudice? I hope not because most of us are not "great"; we're just ordinary people who deserve the same respect as anyone else, no matter what race, religion, ethnicity, gender or sexual preference.
 
 
+2 # John Locke 2012-02-04 14:48
Robt Eagle: Just as I suspected, you argued against your own position...This person as you say was special..he was not average... we are talking about the average American who has NO opportunity today...and colvictoria was right on, or have you not noticed how there is a growing movement in this country against women's rights...fueled by the extreme right from where you come from...and it isn't only in Amerika...the entire Mid East belittles women, tells them how to dress and act and if they deviate they are stoned to death...and so do the Amerikan churches, women are second class citizens in this country...The Catholic churce and the Mormon churce believes they are for breading and not much else. So robt, how can women in your convoluted mind have equal opportunity to get ahead?
 
 
0 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-03 18:01
Colvictoria: Last time I read your comments on a Post, you blamed xenophobia, division, separatism & a bunch of other negative descriptions on the Jewish people. What goes? BTW, what exactly is "xenphobia"?
 
 
0 # John Locke 2012-02-04 14:51
dorianb@fuse.net: xenphobia is fear and hatred of strangers or foreigners or of anything that is strange or foreign: our government has this fear of OWS...
 
 
+6 # John Locke 2012-02-02 12:35
Robt Eagle: If hard work allows us to succed why have so many businesses filed for bankruptcy over the past few years? I am speaking of successful businesses. And why are so many large companies closing stores like (Example) Target 120 stores and laying off several thousand people that worked hard?...Entire chain operations are now gone (Circuit City (1949-2009; Linens ’n Things (1975-2008; K.B Toys (1922-2009; Borders Books and Music (1971-2011))
It is easy when the economy is good, but it hasn't been for several years. So please explain how hard work pays off in this atmosphere...if you can? Also why unemployment should not be available for employees displaced by store closings... If you can? If you believe we have opportunity today in America why did your children choose the military? Certainly it was not to protect American since we are the aggressor, but rather because they lacked opportunity!... Think more and complain less...
 
 
+1 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-01 17:55
Billy Bob:Your questions are sparking my interest OR you have a way of posing questions that bring things out of me I
rarely share. First, in regard to your first question. Been there, done that but without the "embarrassment" in asking for help because as I said before I have worked 2-3 jobs at a time when needed and my children always had enough to eat. I told you I like to look at both sides of a question or situation. I would never miss the opportunity to help a human being in need in any way I could because I believe it is a blessing for the giver more than it is for the recipient. I travel around the country giving Seminars & meet many interesting, inspiring people but the people I find most memorable are those making minimum wages at airports, hotels, driving cabs & shuttles,or working at Avis. They all have a story & a need & they are drawn to me bcause in the flash of a moment, I'm aware of their needs. It isn't always money but that nearly always plays a part. It may be advise or encouragment in regard to a job, college, family matters, medical issues. Do not say I belittle people because I speak forthright and encourage Posters to be more open minded & to stop denigrating people with name-calling & obscenities. It's so valueless & immature.
 
 
+3 # Billy Bob 2012-01-31 19:05
Out of curiosity, when you were too poor to pay for Huggies and "had to" work as a caddy "for the rich"...

how did you get to work? You worked in a rich neighborhood, but yet you were poor. How many trains did you have to take to get there? How much did it cost you to take a cab? How early did you have to get up in the morning to walk all those miles from your poor neighborhood, just so you could work for nearly nothing as a caddy? What if you had no wife to help look after your kids while you were doing this? Did you ever notice that caddying doesn't pay as well as other jobs you could have had at the same time?

I think you revealed more about your past than you wanted to.
 
 
-3 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-01-31 22:57
Billy Bob: I think you're revealing more about your character, or lack thereof in these "mean" posts directed at Mr. Eagle.
Are you envious of him for achieving or for the strength if character it took to do it on his own.
 
 
+1 # Billy Bob 2012-02-01 06:12
I never said I wasn't successful. I have nothing to be envious about. How do you think I have the time to write on these threads. Most working-class people don't.
 
 
0 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-03 18:26
Billy Bob: I apologize for saying that. You, too have two personas or ways of expressing yourself but you're a very interesting guy. You are a guy? Can't always tell on these Posts. I believe you are successful & more successsful than I am because you have more time for posting than I do due to my working.
 
 
0 # Billy Bob 2012-02-04 10:11
I'm still working. But I'm self-employed. So, like people who make a lot more money than I do at being self-employed I can decide what to do with my time.
 
 
-3 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-01 01:24
Billy Bob: I think you revealed more about your character than you
wanted to.
 
 
-2 # Robt Eagle 2012-02-01 05:19
Billy Bob, I lived a mile from the golf course up a very steep hill and ran the whole way to get there. Living at the bottom of the hill were all the poor people, well my family had very little, just shelter, food, and I worked as a caddie from age 11 and gave my earnings to my family. My past is fact and you can try to twist it any way you want, but all I know is I worked my butt off for everything I have and gave to others who need help, both financially and with deeds. My wife died when my kids were in college, so yeah I took care of the family when she was unable to and my youngest was just 12 when she became sick with 4th stage breast cancer, so your premise is BS. Just take responsibility and do what needs to be done. That is American. Folks will volunteer to help you because it is charitable. Don't tax to equalize, it will and has destroyed the American way of life.
 
 
-2 # Billy Bob 2012-02-01 06:17
You weren't homeless with children too young to fend for themselves or even be sent to public school. You lived in a neighborhood where you could safely walk, run or whatever (even if it was up hill both ways in 10 feet of snow) without fear of being shot. You lived only ONE MILE from the richy's golf course. YOU HATE A HOUSE. You had kids who were able to go to college.

Your past did not inform you of the past and PRESENT of people who would have killed just to have the opportunities you had.

Their pasts and PRESENTS are ALSO fact, no matter how you twist them. Who are you to judge other people who literally CAN NOT afford to feed their kids without help, MUCH LESS SOMEHOW go to college?
 
 
0 # Billy Bob 2012-02-01 09:52
"had a house" not "hate a house"
 
 
+4 # Majikman 2012-01-31 19:08
Dorian & Mr. Eagle are caught in a time warp...the time when it was possible to work 2 or 3 jobs and get a college education because college was affordable back then. Not now. Getting an education meant there were jobs available upon graduation...not now. The bootstraps they pride themselves on pulling up had a huge lift from (horrors) socialized programs...not now.
When a people undergo a paradigm shift from being citizens to consumers, their worth diminishes with their ability to consume. Ain't rocket science.
 
 
-3 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-01-31 23:00
Majikman: I went to college on academic scholarships, not socialized programs.
 
 
-1 # Billy Bob 2012-02-01 06:26
I assumed you attended a fully funded public school, right? What do you say to people who attended schools without textbooks or qualified teachers?

By the way, I've NEVER heard of an academic scholarship paying room and board. If you worked full time to pay for those things, which you WOULD HAVE TO DO, in most areas, how did you manage to do justice to your degree?

I can tell you that I ALSO went to school on an academic scholarship, but because my parents couldn't afford my bills I had to take out a loan to deal with everything. In the '80s (under daddy bush) I was not able to get that loan because, GET THIS - I DIDN'T MAKE ENOUGH TO PROVE I WAS INDEPENDANT. Afterall, I only worked 30 hours a week while going to school full time. After a year of that, and being told I couldn't get a student loan (I'd save up enough to pay one year of room and board), I had to take a few years off to work full time somewhere else where I could make more than $3.33 an hour, just so I could come back and continue. I lived in neighborhoods with people who were struggling to feed their children, and like "the robbed eagle" I walked to and from work.

CONT.
 
 
0 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-03 21:19
It was hard, Billy Bob. You have no idea how "fricking" hard it was and you have no idea how hard it is for me today to work FT in a demanding profession (which I do love) in the 7th decade of my life.
 
 
0 # Billy Bob 2012-02-04 10:15
Of course it was hard. Most of us can empathize with that fact. It's just that most of us are tired of being preached to about how hard it was for people who have more money to get that money.

Remember this quote from Citizen Kane?:

"There's no trick to having a lot of money if all you want out of life is a lot of money"

We ALL work hard for our money, including people who don't make much, or people who stay at home with children as their spouse rakes in the bucks.

The differences in income are not related to how hard we work. They're more related to a complex series of factors INCLUDING the opportunities and talents we've been afforded. These are nothing to brag about. They're largely a matter of luck.
 
 
+4 # Billy Bob 2012-02-01 06:27
CONT.

I still got my doctorate. Yay for me! Luckily, I had been raised in a neighborhood where it was safe to attend school and I was given a QUALITY public education. Luckily for me, my PARENTS could make ends meet - even if they couldn't help me pay for college.

EMPATHY ISN'T ROCKET SCIENCE EITHER. IT'S JUST HUMAN.
 
 
+5 # John Locke 2012-02-02 13:13
dorianb@fuse.net: What is wrong with socialized programs? are we not entitled to certain rights, like Health Care, and education...simply due to having been born...these are fundamental rights of birth...are these things not beneficial to society as a whole? Note: One of the primary purposes of Society is to make things better for the members: Public health and educational facilities, the public transport system and the infrastructure that enables us to satisfy our basic needs form an important part of society. The government or any form of a central governing authority regulates a society. But ours has failed us due and owing to Wall Street and the "conservative blindfold"
 
 
+1 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-02 17:50
John Locke, Absolutely nothing is wrong with Socialized Programs. I fought for them and still do.I was answering a miscomprehended assumption that I attended college while working 2 jobs in the '60s. It was 20 years later when that occurred. In the '60s I was a Civil Rights activist, Feminist,Viet Nam protester, artist and mother of 4 & had no time for academics & min. wage jobs.
 
 
-4 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-01 01:21
No time warp for me Majikman. I obtained my undergraduate and graduate degrees on academic scholarships while working.
"Aint rocket science?" Is this
what you learned while under-
going your "paradigm shift?"
 
 
-1 # Majikman 2012-02-01 18:05
Obviously, none of your classes were in the humanities.
 
 
+1 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-02 21:47
Majikman: Which classes in the humanities are you thinking of and what makes you assume I missed out in classes in the humanities?
 
 
-6 # Robt Eagle 2012-02-01 05:22
That is total BS...I'm working three jobs today and rarely have a day off. The jobs are out there, just go do them. They may not be the most glorious occupations, but will put food, clothing and a roof over your head. Where is it written you MUST have a cell phone and cable TV??? Spend your time working and less worrying about not working. Heck, you are probably eating more than you should be and the wrong kind of food, so you are fat and lazy to begin with. Get off the couch and go out and work in the fresh air. Do something and be happy to be alive and healthy. Stop whining!
 
 
+2 # Billy Bob 2012-02-01 06:28
Where is it written that minimum wage jobs must provide daycare?

Stop preaching. If you're so successful and the government shouldn't help people who need it, GET A FOURTH JOB and START HELPING OTHERS.
 
 
-2 # Billy Bob 2012-02-01 06:57
If you're able-bodied and don't have dependent children you should definitely not be eligible for "Temporary Assistance for Needy Families". Come to think of it, it's already that way.

In fact, maybe if there was more funding for public school education - especially PRE-K and publicly funded daycare more people would be gladly taking those below living wage positions at McDonalds.
 
 
0 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-03 18:30
Majikman: The only jobs I got after my undergraduate degree were fellowships and minimum wage jobs. BTW, it wasn't the 60's, it was the 80's.
 
 
+3 # reiverpacific 2012-01-31 19:45
Look; when RobtEagle can point me at a right wing outlet of any kind where I can say what I like without being screened out, as he does apparently at will on RSN, disregard anything that comes out of his reactionary trap. I've yet to get an answer to this question posed some time ago.
Freedom of speech is available to the owners and their patsies like RE, except on the alternative media. Remember, those who shout loudest about freedom, Liberty and openness are the first to take it away from you.
Again. put up or git lost!
 
 
-5 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-01-31 23:04
Reiverpacific: Does it give you enjoyment to belittle people?
Does this make you a better person or make Democrats look superior to the Republicans?
 
 
-3 # Billy Bob 2012-02-01 06:29
Does it give you enjoyment to call the kettle, "black"?
 
 
+4 # reiverpacific 2012-02-01 09:08
Quoting
Reiverpacific: Does it give you enjoyment to belittle people?
Does this make you a better person or make Democrats look superior to the Republicans?

Not it doesn't. I just get tired of reactionaries busting into a mostly leftist blog when access to the other direction is closed. Fact-based debate with open minds is always welcome but why should it be one-way? I'll continue to challenge those I find abusive and intrustive, making assumptions (Like "Get off the couch---") without knowing the person(s) it is aimed at, in turn abuse in it's most presumptuous form. And I'm NOT a Democrat!
FYI, I've been self-employed most of my life and lived a wonderful, adventurous and pushing-the-envelope life all over the world and many parts of the US but regret that this country, which used to be a great place to live and work if you had ideas, vision and a bit of moxie, has deteriorated into a mean-spirited corporate state with little time for the small business or those who have suffered hardship. I'm admittedly a bit of a combative ol' ex-rugby player as is my nature but hardly abusive. Just wishing for enlightening discussion, not "This is the way it is -period!" I mostly try to say or infer "In my opinion", base it on verifiable fact and put it out there -often with a hint o' humor-, a characteristic sadly lacking from those on the right :look at your own posts from this perspective and think on't. 'Nuff said.
 
 
+2 # Billy Bob 2012-02-01 09:57
You put a lot more personal thought into that reply than they've put into all their comments on this thread together. Thank you for taking them on. It's a service to our country.
 
 
-2 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-01 20:18
Reiverpacfic: I like some of your comments but some are more abusive and belittling than you may be aware of, especially your posts to RE whom I do not know or share any particular political views with but I do not like the way you attack him, insult him & encourage BillyBob & others to do the same. You state you intend to "continue to challenge those {you} find abusive and Intrusive"...I will do the same regarding abusive and bullying I could care less about "intrusive".That's for people who find themselves easily intimidated which is a category that does not include me! Do we understand each other?
 
 
0 # Billy Bob 2012-02-02 07:18
I understand that you're a hypocrite and have a pretty transparent agenda.

I'm sorry to break it to you, but unless there are threats of physical violence, "bullying" and "intimidation" are impossible on these threads. "The robbed eagle" feels the need to preach his views to us. We have every right to call him out on anything we perceive as nonsense. If you agree with him, fine. But, this isn't a football game. This is politics. People's lives are affected, and pretending we can unilaterally behave as if we are "above the fray" against an opponent (yes, he's an opponent) who cares nothing for us, and belongs to a political faction that would gladly use violence to get it's way, is self-defeating.

You're not a "referee". You're a participant in a serious debate. Calling "foul" every time someone challenges you or your alies is disengenuous and transparent.

Why is it always the right, that's lecturing the rest of us to "tone it down". And by the way, I'm sorry you don't think you're a right-winger. On other threads, and about other subjects, you may not be. But, on this thread, your opinions are firmly on the right end of the spectrum.
 
 
0 # Billy Bob 2012-02-04 10:19
SORRY FOR THE TONE OF THAT COMMENT.

I know you better now and realize that you're a straight shooter. I thought you had a hidden agenda. You don't. We just disagree occassionally.

The strength of the left-wing, whenever any strength is present, is in our ability to disagree with one another.

I suspect we'll continue to disagree from time to time. There are other left-wing posters I disagree with occassionally as well. We aren't as homogenous as the right. That's a good thing.
 
 
-5 # Robt Eagle 2012-02-01 05:28
Riverpacific, What are you writing here is free speech offered by RSN for everyone, unless you only want to hear the Progressive side and all the cheerleading of losers in life who want everything handed to them by government. Try buying and reading a book. Why don't you start with Gretchen Morgenson's book, "Reckless Endangerment" and find out how we got into this financial mess in the first place. By the way she is employed by the NY Times which is pretty left wing. Freedom is NOT free, and like my kids who are serving in the Navy, our military is protecting your right to write your brand of BS on this site. Have a great safe, free day to live the way you want, thanks to the American military.
 
 
+4 # Billy Bob 2012-02-01 06:30
It's only because this is a liberal site that YOUR opinions are even printed.

You're right about freedom not being free. That why so many Americans can't afford it.
 
 
0 # colvictoria 2012-02-01 08:28
Robt Eagle OHHHHH!!! Now the truth comes out! You are with the Military Industrial Complex!
I knew you were either police, military, CIA or FBI. You fail to see that the defense budget of the U.S. is more than all other industrial nations combined. The way things are going right now it appears that all of the masses of unemployed will have to join since that's where all the money has gone.
You criticize the poor or people who are getting a meager handout. Meanwhile you are part of a billion dollar industry who kills and destroys people all over the world. If I were starving and homeless I would never ever join that sociopathic killing machine. I would never sell my soul.
Don't give me that BS about the military fighting for our freedom. Those kids joining may not have any other option and they are being used as cannon fodder to fight the wars of the wealthy elites who run the world like the bankers at the FEDERAL RESERVE!
I pity you for you have bought the lie the government has sold you. They sure have done a PSY OPS on you and all of those other soldiers who believe they are fighting for freedom.
Do you know what you are fighting for? you are not fighting for my freedom you are fighting for oil, copper, cobalt, iron, diamonds, gold, silver,and for strategic geopolitical positioning by the US, UK, France, Germany, Israel. That is what you are fighting for. Have a fine and pleasant day sir!
 
 
+1 # reiverpacific 2012-02-01 08:43
Quoting
Riverpacific, What are you writing here is free speech offered by RSN for everyone, unless you only want to hear the Progressive side and all the cheerleading of losers in life who want everything handed to them by government. Try buying and reading a book. Why don't you start with Gretchen Morgenson's book, "Reckless Endangerment" and find out how we got into this financial mess in the first place. By the way she is employed by the NY Times which is pretty left wing. Freedom is NOT free, and like my kids who are serving in the Navy, our military is protecting your right to write your brand of BS on this site. Have a great safe, free day to live the way you want, thanks to the American military.

You still haven't answered my question about where I can go to air my progressive views on a right-wing site or channel. I welcome opposing views with those who are open to debate like some moderate republicans I regularly talk with but yours is as tight-closed as a duck's arse (and that's watertight!).
Your kids I'm afraid, are part of the biggest destructive force on the planet in the name of "freedom" for corporate state to agitate and plunder other nations, which I have opposed all my life including taking to the streets and being jailed for it in several countries - and am proud of it! I hope they find a more worthwhile future than being part of a killing machine: go to some Vets for Peace meetings and air your B.S. -I dare you!
 
 
-4 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-01 20:26
Reiverpacific: This is a very abusive comment and intrusive.Now you stop this!
You have no business belittling his children or their service in the Navy. You said you do NOT like belittling people. This is very mean!
 
 
0 # Billy Bob 2012-02-02 07:10
This is very hypocritical. Now you stop this! That's the problem we're having with your comments. You seem to be pretty selective in which comments you consider "abusive". I don't see you calling out "the robbed eagle" for calling everyone "twits", "jerks", "dolts", and "nitwits", or for refering to their remarks as "bullshit". Seriously, where have you applied the same rules to his comments? No, instead we get you complimenting them for being well thought out.

I find reiverpacific's comments to be RIGHT ON TARGET and exactly what the conversation needs. If you think his comments are abusive, I'd like to see you make a few anti-military comments in front of a recruiting station, or at a kindergarden where the military is already recruiting.

Whether you want to suddenly play the "academic moderator" or not, you have an agenda just like everyone else. Playing the "above the fray" game only works if you don't engage in the abuse yourself.

Simply saying, "YOU ARE PATHETIC" to other comments, puts you down here in the mud with the rest of us. If you want to selectively preach that some of us need to turn the other cheek, let's see you lead by example.
 
 
0 # reiverpacific 2012-02-02 18:45
Quoting
Reiverpacific: This is a very abusive comment and intrusive.Now you stop this!
You have no business belittling his children or their service in the Navy. You said you do NOT like belittling people. This is very mean!

Oh my, slap my wrists, this is gettin' to be fun! In a former post, I told mr E. that I was glad his kids had made it back safe from the Gulf and that I really admired the Navy Seals just for their toughness and the course they have to go through just to qualify. Also invited RE to attend a Veterans for Peace Meeting and put out some of the stuff he spatters around here. I learn a lot from them. Now how 'bout that? So what's abusive about that?
And he still hasn't answered my question about access to the right-wing media; nor has anybody else.
Now you stop that, you naughty boy! (heh-heh).
 
 
+1 # reiverpacific 2012-02-01 09:09
Quoting
Riverpacific, What are you writing here is free speech offered by RSN for everyone, unless you only want to hear the Progressive side and all the cheerleading of losers in life who want everything handed to them by government. Try buying and reading a book. Why don't you start with Gretchen Morgenson's book, "Reckless Endangerment" and find out how we got into this financial mess in the first place. By the way she is employed by the NY Times which is pretty left wing. Freedom is NOT free, and like my kids who are serving in the Navy, our military is protecting your right to write your brand of BS on this site. Have a great safe, free day to live the way you want, thanks to the American military.

"Reiverpacific" if you don't mind!
 
 
+2 # John Locke 2012-02-03 07:16
Robt Eagle: Oh Robt I couldn't pass up the opportunity to respond to your rant here..."our military is protecting your right to write your brand of BS here..."

I need to hear your excuse how? By invading Iraq, Afghanistan, our Intervention in Panamanian Revolution (1903)- The Banana Wars (1909-1933)-U.S. Occupation of Vera Cruz (1914)-Pershing's Raid into Mexico (1916-1917)-Allied Intervention in Russian Civil War (1919-1921)-Korean War (1950-1953)-Intervention in Lebanon (1958)- Second Indochina War (1956-1975)- Dominican Intervention (1965-1966?)- Lebanese Intervention (1982-1984)- Grenada Invasion (1983)- First Persian Gulf War (1980-1988)-Panama Invasion (1989)- Second Persian Gulf War - Somalia Intervention (1992-1993)- Occupation of Haiti (1994-Present)- Bosnian War (1995)-Kosovo War (1999)- Libyan War (2011)- (there's More) We were the invader and aggressor in all these wars... So tell me robert how is the US Military protecting us by invading countries all over the world? I want to hear your response!
 
 
+2 # Billy Bob 2012-02-04 10:21
Thank you for being about the only person I've ever heard to actually say those things. It shouldn't be an act of personal bravery to question the militarization of our increasingly police state. It should be considered a matter of American Freedom.

Thank you for speaking the truth right in the face of the manipulations and flag waving propaganda.
 
 
+5 # berensmann 2012-01-31 21:56
I recall as a kid most people aspired to work for a corporation, advance, and eventually enjoy a secure retirement. Many corporations functioned from the bottom up...pay your employees a fair wage and benefits, then figure in your overhead, product cost, then add a fair profit margin...then price your product.
Today they start top down..first: profit margin, 30%?, 40%? then work their way down, and whatever is left over is spent on employees and, if it's not much, then it's layoff or minimum wage time.
I remember Bill Bradley speaking years ago and saying that if the wealthy don't take care of their workers in the best of times, and the worst of times, when the good times return there may be no one to employ.
 
 
0 # Majikman 2012-02-01 18:01
Dorian..do you not think public school is a socialized program? Ah well, back in the dark ages when I went to school they still taught CIVICS, so it's understandable that today's kids have no idea what socialism is and assume it's some heinous left wing conspiracy conflated with communism and fascism.
 
 
-2 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-01 20:29
Majikman: Please explain what you are saying here. I have no idea what you are talking about and I'm not a kid.
 
 
+3 # reiverpacific 2012-02-02 19:35
Quoting
Majikman: Please explain what you are saying here. I have no idea what you are talking about and I'm not a kid.

I think that he's referring to the ever-increasing blurring of the dumb-down vs fact in what remains of the public education system, itself under threat and seemingly putting out falsehood as to what is solid theorem/practice and the current manipulated reality for the corporate state.
And I concur absolutely if this is the case.
 
 
+1 # dorianb@fuse.net 2012-02-02 21:59
Reiverpacific: I agree. Thank you for explaining. Thumbs Up!
 
 
+3 # pernsey 2012-02-02 08:50
Lets drop huge bailouts for banks and corporations...which amounts to corporate welfare. Lets stop propping up businesses that have most of their work force overseas. If we are going to starve out the average man then lets starve out the corporations...after all they are people. They should get back exactly what they are doling out to the middle class and poor...a great big kick in the pants!! Survival of the fittest as republicans like to spout, if they cant make it, then they should go under...just like republicans suggest people on public programs should.
 
 
+2 # reiverpacific 2012-02-02 19:29
Can I make one more point -although it is way off the main subject matter.
If I ever COULD gain access to any right-wing site and consistently posted opposing views -with or without back up and verifiable reference -like R.E and "dorianb@fuse.net" do all the time, I'd have been the recipient of at the best violent abuse, threats and digital screaming and at worst, death threats from the usual cowards who lurk in the shadows with their telescopic sights aimed at those who truly crave freedom and won't back down.
I've actually experienced this in several countries controlled (formerly) by the CIA/Military Death machine when I stepped out of line.
But I'm just a little member of the submerged whatever %!
Think about it.
I'm done with this post now -movin' on.
 
 
+3 # LiberalLibertarian 2012-02-03 13:04
Reiverpacific,

I also would love to see a Right Wing site that allows alternate points of view. That doesn't vet each person that wants to be eligible to post.

Let me know when you find one.
 

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