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Gordon writes: "I'm too old and too stubborn to cede my country to the forces of hatred and a nihilistic desire to blow the whole thing up just to see where the pieces come down. I've fought, and organized, and loved too long to give up now."

The cover of 'TrumpNation: The Art of Being the Donald' by Timothy O'Brien. (photo: Warner Books)
The cover of 'TrumpNation: The Art of Being the Donald' by Timothy O'Brien. (photo: Warner Books)


Life Under Trump

By Rebecca Gordon, TomDispatch

21 November 16

 


At 72, I experienced election night with a 103-degree temperature, so it was literally a fever-dream for me. And in a certain sense, it’s remained so ever since. Now that a white supremacist has just been made the next president’s closest White House adviser, and the president-elect has called conspiracy theorist Alex Jones of Infowars to thank him and his followers for their part in his election victory, we have reasonable confirmation that we are indeed in a fever-dream America.

Hate incidents are on the rise. It’s easy enough to imagine the Bundy brothers being let loose in the West. A climate change denier is running the Trump environmental policy transition. The candidate himself will arrive in Washington with an enemies list already in formation (beating Dick Nixon to the punch by years). The mainstream media have tied themselves in apologetic knots for believing the pollsters on Hillary’s “victory” and not bothering to talk enough to the white working class voters who came out for Trump (and whom Clinton abandoned for white millionaires and billionaires). And the new president is being normalized by the old one, who previously excoriated him in the name of democracy, while mainstream pundits and journalists desperately look for signs that Donald Trump will be a pragmatic, recognizable American president once he takes the mantle of power.

Thanks to the Obama years (not to speak of the Bush ones), our new “pragmatic” president will enter the Oval Office fully weaponized. He will have expanded and expansive executive powers of death, destruction, and coercion directly at his disposal when it comes to acts like assassination by drone, surveillance, global kidnapping operations, the pursuit of leakers and whistleblowers, and the torture of potential terror suspects, among many other things. At his beck and call, he will have a private army of 70,000 elite troops -- the Special Operations forces -- already scattered across the planet, and a private air force of CIA-run drones at bases ringing, or actually in, the Greater Middle East. Put another way, Donald J. Trump is not going to be the president of the Philippines. He’s going to be the head of the single most powerful, most potentially destructive, most potentially intrusive force on the planet and on many of the powers he’ll inherit there are remarkably few restraints. That is, in fact, anything but normal.

In the meantime, the rest of us have ended up in the fun house. The mirrors that line the walls are weird. It’s truly hard to tell what world we’re looking at. We’re wandering in here lost and freaked out. Fears are rising.

Whatever Donald Trump ends up doing, however, he’s just a symptom. His already certifiably bizarre pre-presidency was born of a long, grim history, domestic and foreign. As Donald Trump leads an ever more extreme Republican Party (and the American people) into a darkening future, it's probably necessary to add that, if there were such a thing as national psychiatrists, as a country we might now be diagnosed with some kind of personality disorder. Today, TomDispatch regular Rebecca Gordon takes us on a journey deep into our already disordered and disorderly world (before the Trump presidency even starts), offering -- surprisingly enough -- a little hope along the way.

-Tom Engelhardt, TomDispatch


Life Under Trump
Night Terrors and Daytime Hopes

he night after the election, this long-time pacifist dreamed she shot a big white man carrying an arsenal of guns.  He was wandering around a room full of people, waving a pistol and threatening to fire. Someone pushed a gun into my hand and said, “Shoot now, while his back is turned!” I shot. Blood seeped from a hole in his back. He fell. I woke up stunned.

And the election results had not changed.

Night Fears

More bad nights have followed, filled with dreams in which people who know me well accuse me of terrible things I haven’t done or of failing to protect people in my charge.

And there have been nights when my partner and I hold each other in the dark and whisper our worst fears. Some of these are personal and selfish: Under the new regime, will I still be able to get the meds that keep me going? Will I have to work for money until I die to keep my health care benefits? Because I turn 65 next year, will I miss the 2017 Medicare cutoff and fall under Paul Ryan’s plan to turn that program into a voucher system?

Some fears are national: How can the two of us, and the organizations we’re connected with, continue to shield the vulnerable in an era when a white supremacist serves as the president’s chief strategist?

Some are global: Can we hold back the rising seas that are already closing over island nations on a planet where Donald Trump promises to abandon the fight against climate change and walk away from the historic Paris climate accord?

And then, it’s back to the personal again: Just how vulnerable are we, two middle class white lesbians in our sixties, during a Trump presidency? In the 1980s and 1990s, we used to wonder why the two things our “gay leaders” thought we wanted most in the world were to join the Army and get married. Now, the question isn’t what we’ll be able to do, but what we won’t be able to do. 

Admittedly, the two of us will never again need the right to an abortion that a Trump-influenced Supreme Court will probably devolve to the states, essentially abrogating the Roe v. Wade decision. But I did need it in 1975, and I thank God I had it. On the other hand, such a court could easily decide to revisit its 2003 decision in Lawrence v. Texas, which invalidated sodomy laws. It’s easy enough to forget now that, as recently as 1986, in Bowers v. Hardwick, the court opined that no one has “a fundamental right to engage in homosexual sodomy.”

But the terror that’s shaken us the most is that, in the coming years, we might witness the final collapse of the rule of law in this country. I’ve spent the last decade and a half writing about torture and other war crimes committed in the global “war on terror.” First, the Bush administration brought us two illegal wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, along with “enhanced interrogation techniques” and a permanent extralegal prison at Guantánamo Bay. The Obama administration followed with its policy of extrajudicial murder by drone, and undeclared but very real wars in Libya, Syria, and Yemen. Between them, they twisted and warped and finally broke domestic and international laws of all sorts.

But the past two administrations at least gave lip service to the rule of law. In Donald Trump, we have a president-elect who has said he will simply ignore the law if it gets in his way. In a primary debate last March, he insisted that the military would follow any order he gave -- whether to torture detainees or to “take out” the families of suspected terrorists. When debate moderator Bret Baier pointed out that soldiers are prohibited from obeying an illegal order, Trump answered, “They won’t refuse. They’re not gonna refuse me. Believe me. I’m a leader. I’ve always been a leader. I’ve never had any problem leading people. If I say do it, they’re going to do it.” Apparently he got some advice about saying such things in public; the following day found him walking back the comments, acknowledging that “the United States is bound by laws and treaties and I will not order our military or other officials to violate those laws.” But it’s pretty clear what he really thinks about the binding power of law.

There’s so much to worry about with a Trump presidency. Why does contempt for the rule of law stand out for me? Part of the answer is that by making laws we human beings both recognize and secure our need to live together. In the thirteenth century, Thomas Aquinas defined a law as “an ordinance of reason for the common good, made by [whoever] has care of the community, and promulgated.” It’s still a pretty decent definition: a reasonable rule made for the good of everyone in the community, rather than for one particular group, by those with responsibility for ensuring that good, and made public so that everyone knows what the law is and how it operates. No secret laws. No secret courts. A premature medieval democrat, Aquinas allowed for the possibility that the one who “has care of the community” might, in fact, be a body of elected representatives, or even the community as a whole.

The law is not sexy. It’s not click-bait. But it can, for instance, be the protective wall between a group of people designated as less than human and those who hate them (though that is, of course, not Trump’s idea of a useful wall). That’s only true, however, if the law is enforced. International law could also be the barrier, the wall, that protects the world from a country that for the past 15 years has behaved like an angry two-year-old giant, stomping around the world, waving missiles and smashing things with its outsized feet. Or it might have been, had Barack Obama not begun his presidency by promising that he (and therefore the rest of us) would “look forward as opposed to looking backwards” when it came to the crimes of the Bush administration.

That failure to respect the law made it clear that, in twenty-first-century America, some people are exempt from it. Obama continued,

“And part of my job is to make sure that, for example, at the CIA, you’ve got extraordinarily talented people who are working very hard to keep Americans safe. I don’t want them to suddenly feel like they’ve got to spend their all their time looking over their shoulders.”

I think people who have extraordinary power should spend a good part of their time looking over their shoulders. And more to the point, we should be able to look over theirs.

It appears that the International Criminal Court has finally been looking over the CIA’s shoulders. In its annual report, issued earlier this month, the chief prosecutor indicated that she will likely open a full investigation into “war crimes of torture and related ill treatment, by U.S. military forces deployed to Afghanistan and in secret detention facilities operated by the Central Intelligence Agency.” The report observes:

“These alleged crimes were not the abuses of a few isolated individuals. Rather, they appear to have been committed as part of approved interrogation techniques in an attempt to extract ‘actionable intelligence’ from detainees.”

This is the first move the ICC has made to investigate U.S. war crimes and so to hold this country to the standards of international law. We’ll see how far the effort goes. The court’s jurisdiction here is murky indeed, because the United States is not party to the treaty that created it.

Day Dreams

I teach ethics to college students. The Wednesday morning after the election I threw out the lesson plan for the day (a lecture on institutionalized state torture). Instead, we considered the election. We watched a few videos: the live feed of Hillary Clinton’s concession speech, Trump’s victory speech, and CNN commentator Van Jones’s unfiltered reaction to the election (“this is a whitelash”). Then I invited my students to discuss how they felt about Trump’s stunning victory.

A young white woman started the conversation by saying how angry she was at the “uneducated white men” who voted for Trump. I asked my students what percentage of people in the U.S. they thought had four-year college degrees. (The answer is roughly a third.) “That means,” I said, “that two-thirds of the people in this country don’t have the chance to go to college. If they are uneducated, it is not entirely by choice.” I went on to talk about the real pain of watching your income shrink, and losing the work that defined your place and your value in a society that measures everything in dollars and cents. I suggested that even as we abhor the political choice to support a candidate who openly declares his racism, misogyny, and contempt for Muslims, disabled people, and the rule of law, we can still respect that pain -- and the humanity of those who feel it.

An Asian American woman began to cry a little as she described her terror not only for herself, but for African American and Latino friends who are more vulnerable than she is.

I can understand her fear. Between the day after the election and Monday, November 14th, the Southern Poverty Law Center had already logged 437 reports of hate incidents, many of them involving “direct references to the Trump campaign and its slogans.”

I’ve been remembering the times I’ve been yelled at, contemptuously addressed as “sir,” or chased down the street by people who’d discerned that I’m a lesbian. Donald Trump has spent the last year telling people that their hatred is a good thing, and to feel free to express it with physical violence. It’s no wonder some of us are a little scared.

In another class a few days later, an Indian American student told us two stories. The first was about an African American friend of hers at the University of California, Berkeley. She was walking away from a post-election anti-Trump demonstration on campus, when she found herself surrounded by a group of young white men. They began to taunt her. And then they did the thing that Trump boasted his fame allows him to do. They grabbed her pussy. She ran, and fortunately they’d had their “fun” and didn’t follow her.

The second story was about my student herself. “I was on the BART [our local subway] going to visit my grandmother this weekend,” she began.

“I noticed a group of white men around a very young woman, about 18, wearing a hijab. They were making fun of her and calling her names. So I went and sat down next to her and told her to ignore them. When we got to her stop, she was afraid to leave, afraid they’d follow her. I had another five stops to go, but I couldn’t let her leave alone, so I got out, too. And so did the boys. They followed us out of the station and stood near us yelling as the young woman waited for her ride to come. They started to get closer, and her ride still hadn’t made it, so I called a Lyft, and rode with her to her home.”

My student’s courage humbled me.

No New Normal

The full-time faculty at my university has been working for months without a contract. We’ve had a change of administration, and the new regime is fighting hard against a demand for a very modest salary increase. To put the struggle into words, my colleagues have made buttons sporting a red circle and the words “new normal” with a red slash through it. I’ve been wearing one to show solidarity with my full-time colleagues. Since Donald Trump’s election, I’ve taken to wearing it off campus as well. It seems like a particularly appropriate slogan these days for those of us who don’t want the new normal to mean a return to a very old normal. Having it on makes me feel a bit braver and a bit more hopeful.

We need hope now, so we can face a world in which hopelessness, despair, and the tears of my students could also become the new norm. Hope doesn’t mean pretending that the danger isn’t very clear and very present. If your tastes run to good left rhetoric, there’s the Italian Marxist Antonio Gramsci’s suggestion in his Letters from Prison that we should combine pessimism of the intellect with an optimism of the will. In an article on “The Indifferent,” he wrote, “To really live means to be a citizen and to take part.” 

That’s a sentiment not so different from what my students read in Aristotle’s Nicomachean Ethics. Human beings, says Aristotle, are political animals; we live best when we live as citizens. He also believed that our best qualities are habits we get by practicing them. “We become just,” he says, “by doing just acts.” So you might think of hope as a habit we build in ourselves by doing hopeful things.  Think of each of us as assembling it like a rock wall from bumpy stones that don’t necessarily look like they’ll ever fit together. Hope is the wall we can build, stone by stone, to fence in a future Trumpian autocracy.

A few rocks in my personal wall of hope:

It’s 1984. I’m in Nicaragua traveling with 15 other people jammed into the back of a tiny pickup truck, bouncing through dangerous territory. It’s the height of the war the Reagan administration has illegally funded against the left-wing Sandinista government, which was installed after the ouster of a U.S.-backed dictator, Anastasio Somoza. The road we’re traveling down goes through territory controlled by the CIA-backed Contra rebels. We’re heading toward a town called San Juan del Bocay. We round a bend and the land flattens out, revealing a barn standing in a field. Someone who has clearly learned to read and write since the 1979 Sandinista revolution has painted a slogan on the side of the building in careful block letters: “Nosotro vencimo Somo libre Nunca volveremo a cer esclavo.”

The spelling is terrible; there’s no punctuation; and since, like all Nicaraguans, the writer doesn’t pronounce the letter “s” at the end of a word, he or she doesn’t even realize that it’s there, as in “nosotros” -- “we.” But it doesn’t matter. The meaning couldn’t be clearer. “We won. We are free. We will never go back to being slaves.”

When people decide that they are human beings and not beasts of burden, that is a genie no one can shove back into the bottle. Over the last 50 years, groups of people in this country have one by one fought for and claimed their full humanity: African Americans, women, LGB and now T people, those with disabilities, immigrants of whatever documentation status. Trumplandia may not yet recognize our humanity, but we do. You can’t shove that back in the bottle either.

It’s the Thursday after the 2016 election. I’m riding my bike towards campus when I see a phalanx of San Francisco police lining Valencia Street. Then I realize that there’s a mid-day, mid-week march coming down the sidewalk. As I get closer, I see that they’re all middle school students, shouting and carrying signs like “Dump Trump” and “Love Trumps Hate!” I stop and call to them, “You’re going to finish what people like me started.” They cheer for themselves and their own astonishing courage. You can’t shove youth back in the bottle. As the folksinger Holly Near sang decades ago, “You can’t murder youth, my friend, youth grows the whole world round.”

It’s 7:45 a.m. on the Friday after the election. I’m entering the building where I teach my 8:00 class. On the door, someone has taped up a simple black and white notice:

“To all those hurt by
recent election
results:
Lets mourn and then
Lets organize.” 

Details follow about where people can meet “to openly discuss methods and ideas to sidestep this horrific election result.” That meeting, says the notice, is to last from “1:00 p.m. -- till whenever we come up with something.” It ends with this observation: “We can be the change we wish to see, we just have to embody it.” There may be a comma splice in that last sentence and an apostrophe missing from “lets,” but again the meaning is clear. These young people are the inheritors of everything my comrades and I have worked for so much of our lives.

The day after the election, I made a rare post on Facebook:

“Bad enough we gave the world 8 years of G.W. Bush. Now this. We hadn't figured on the depth of hatred and despair in this country. Now to pick ourselves up and get back to work. No emigration for this woman.”

I’m an old dyke, a little ragged around the edges, and prone to the occasional night terror. But I’m too old and too stubborn to cede my country to the forces of hatred and a nihilistic desire to blow the whole thing up just to see where the pieces come down. I’ve fought, and organized, and loved too long to give up now. And Trump and the people who run him can't shove me -- or any of us -- back in that bottle.


 

Rebecca Gordon, a TomDispatch regular, teaches in the philosophy department at the University of San Francisco. She is the author of American Nuremberg: The U.S. Officials Who Should Stand Trial for Post-9/11 War Crimes. Her previous books include Mainstreaming Torture: Ethical Approaches in the Post-9/11 United States and Letters from Nicaragua.

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+54 # danireland46 2016-11-21 10:22
I hate to say that it's encouraging to see other people are having trouble dealing with the horror of a Trump POTUS. especially as his picks for his cabinet and staff all seem to be of the jackboot brown shirt mode, Encouraging because I've been in a real physical/moral funk. My spinal stenosis is killing me, my dreams are nightmares, and I woke Sunday experiencing a scary panic attack. I had to resort to childhood mantras ie. prayers, to get through the morning. I discovered that mundane activities soothe my mind, so I did the dishes, vacuumed, tidied up etc. Because I have two great kids, I can't shrivel up and die, I have to continue the fight. Just in case anyone out there is in a similar dilemma.
 
 
-77 # babaregi 2016-11-21 10:42
Multiculturalis m gone wild!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ylg9NPFzPnA


Build the wall!
 
 
+35 # reiverpacific 2016-11-21 11:06
Quoting babaregi:
Multiculturalism gone wild!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ylg9NPFzPnA


Build the wall!


And YOU go to the other side of it; if Mexico or Canada will have you.
Whether you like it or not, this country IS and has been multicultural, even when it was occupied by the Indians, who had a huge diversity of cultures and customs and carried out inter-tribal ceremonies and exchange of gifts.
An all-white society would be desperately boring -and I imagine a murderous one, given their propensity to be heavily armed in the US at least.
As long as the US with their hugely over-armed and over-populated with cannon-fodder goes out to plunder other nations' resources there'll be blow-back.
From my own point of view and experience, the British Raj BENEFITTED from the "White Man's Burden", the immigrating spawn of the conquered Indian and African nations who became and integral part of the NHS service and of course provided much-needed cultural diversity and color to the "mother-ship" nation, including the food (I'm an Indian food addict, like a huge number of my fellow-Brits).
Multi-culturalism should be celebrated, shared and be an integral component of a rainbow nation -including the original inhabitants; -or an expansion of the polyglot New Orleans, where America's singular and unique contribution to world culture, Jazz and Blues, from the slaves dancing in Congo Square without which rock 'n roll and it's many spinoffs wouldn't exist.
 
 
+32 # economagic 2016-11-21 11:28
And I'll press that a little farther: Pagans and heathens and mammon-worshipe rs aside (especially the mammon-worshipe rs), it has increasingly seemed to me that far too many people who call themselves "Christians" have never read the New Testament. They seem not to understand "the brotherhood of man under the fatherhood of God" (which given the linguistic conventions of the times in which that was written we must interpret today to mean "the family of humankind"). And almost everyone seems to have forgotten "There but for the grace of God go I," the call to place oneself in the shoes of the Other, to BE that Other if only for the moment it takes to realize who that person or people is.

As it happens I do not today at age 70 identify myself as a Christian. That is not because I reject the teachings of the prophet those who so identify claim to follow, or of the very similar wisdom taught by virtually all of the other prophets, despite the assorted ugliness also attributed to each and every one. It is because I interpret that call to embrace the humanity of all, while recognizing the shortcomings of myself and the people who look and act like me, to mean ALL. Of course most people, including the followers of Mr. Trump, say the same thing. But clearly many of them add an unspoken "BUT."
 
 
+12 # Ruth1940 2016-11-21 12:20
I'm 74 and not a Christian either. But the alleged "good book" is full of contradictions and stories of a horrible, fickle, jealous god who only wants adoration and obedience.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about

This is written by a former pastor (who still receives royalties from Christian musicals he wrote, but can't get the royalties back):

www.amazon.com/God-Most-Unpleasant-Character-Fiction/dp/1454918322
 
 
+10 # suzyskier 2016-11-21 18:42
I dread to think of an America without all the different cultures! What a boring place it would be. White whiners go live some place else if you don't like it here, believe me no one will miss you. I am shocked by the amount of hate here.
 
 
+23 # Ruth1940 2016-11-21 12:15
Quoting babaregi:
Multiculturalism gone wild!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ylg9NPFzPnA


Build the wall!


The oldest continuous mosque in the nation is in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, and Muslims are good citizens just as much of the time as the rest of us. The founders knew it didn't matter, so they put no god or Jesus in the Constitution.

Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli (negotiated when Washington was president, ratified and signed by President John Adams, a Unitarn) told the Muslims not to worry, that we had no religious problem with them, as ours is not a Christian nation.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/bar1796t.asp
 
 
+4 # Patriot 2016-11-21 18:00
Thank you, Ruth.
 
 
+5 # Jaax88 2016-11-21 13:02
Bah humbug to you babaregi!!
 
 
-1 # jsluka 2016-11-22 02:36
Babaregi = A-hole.
 
 
+1 # Jadhu 2016-11-22 03:38
Quoting babaregi:
Multiculturalism gone wild!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ylg9NPFzPnA


Build the wall!

Just as we couldn't get rid of racism with legislation, you will never be able to get rid of multiculturalis m. We are America--not some 3rd world country.
 
 
+22 # DongiC 2016-11-21 11:07
It won't be easy but we must continue the fight. We must get the big money out of politics. We must focus on jobs, education, health, and, of course, the environment. If our leaders neglect global warming, all bets are off and even the rich will suffer. Time grows shorter as the planet heats up. Sure hope we can turn things around. Trump may even change his views; he has an awful lot to lose.
 
 
+1 # Cassandra2012 2016-11-21 14:40
Quoting DongiC:
It won't be easy but we must continue the fight. We must get the big money out of politics. We must focus on jobs, education, health, and, of course, the environment. If our leaders neglect global warming, all bets are off and even the rich will suffer. Time grows shorter as the planet heats up. Sure hope we can turn things around. Trump may even change his views; he has an awful lot to lose.
And so begin the Hunger Games......
 
 
+17 # draypoker 2016-11-21 11:08
Ever since the 16th century America has been the land where cultures meet and merge. Even the brutality and inhumanity of slavery has resulted in the absorption of useful cultural trends. The Constitution states that different cultures can work together to create a new entity. That was the main gift of America to the world. Neo-fascism, like Trump's, attempts to end that. But he won't be able to.
 
 
-50 # babaregi 2016-11-21 11:10
reiverpacific:

Thanks for the advice but I was born here, you are the immigrant as I recall, are you even a naturalized citizen yet?

YOU are free to leave (and take your leftist anti-white racist dogma with you) and conduct your social engineering back where you came from. I like it here and I don't need the likes of you telling me to leave my own country. LOL.

You are so naive to be in denial of the native human tribalism of Mankind to think that you can force-feed masses of disparate people and cultures together without adequate time for assimilation. It doesn't work but your 'progressive' ideology blinds you to accepting a reasonable accommodation of reality. This artificial utopian belief in instant multiculturalis m is a method to destabilize communities in order to fragment them and make them easier to control.

This is cultural Marxism and you are one of the useful idiots of the State that seeks control. I'm sure you mean well but I doubt that you have given this much thought or you simply want to exploit the culture here as a parasite does a host; I don't know which it is, you tell me please.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ED9HB6op1GA
 
 
+22 # economagic 2016-11-21 11:33
I was born here too, but I see no need to demean everyone who disagrees with me or even those who insult me. I have learned that doing so convinces few people that I have anything worthwhile to say. Of course even some people I treat gently still demean me, and also others who would tear down walls rather than build them.
 
 
-29 # babaregi 2016-11-21 12:13
Quoting economagic:
I was born here too, but I see no need to demean everyone who disagrees with me or even those who insult me. I have learned that doing so convinces few people that I have anything worthwhile to say. Of course even some people I treat gently still demean me, and also others who would tear down walls rather than build them.


I appreciate your sentiment but I must disagree with you. If someone (especially a non-citizen tells me to leave my own beloved country, then he can expect to be righteously insulted. That's the best that he can expect and if it doesn't straighten him out, then it won't be for a lack of trying.

This is how I deal with fanatics, I don't actually believe there is anything that I can logically present that will change their attitude.

I come here to challenge the progressive conceit and those that truly are curious beyond the 'party line' will weigh my words.

I would think that after being roundly defeated in an election by the American people you folks would pause and reflect a little bit instead of doubling down and doing more of the same.

You guys need shock treatment, IMO.
Reality will provide that, not me; I do this for my own emotional reasons that involve lashing out at insanity. I don't preach to the choir, no need.
I don't chat on conservative sites either since they're even crazier sometimes.

It makes me feel better and I enjoy it for my own selfish reasons. Anything beyond that is just gravy.
 
 
+8 # economagic 2016-11-21 15:19
Look, I can be nasty with the worst, but instead I’m trying to figure out where you’re coming from, with a great deal of nastiness that I consider entirely uncalled for. You did start this conversation with a link to an angry-and-proud rant about events that have nothing to do with the article under discussion and a tribalist suggestion that the US seal its borders, at least one of them, as if that were possible. For starters I would point out that back when America was widely viewed as “great” both domestically and globally, our borders were pretty much open, and don’t even think about “educating” me with the conditions and exceptions to that rule.

In your comment just above you suggest that your insults will “straighten out” a person whose views you dislike. Then you refer to either him or me or everyone on this site as “fanatics.” Do you realize how fanatical you yourself sound when you elaborate beyond your one-liners? Then you suggest that they/we are not curious, and later that we or our views are “insane” or “crazy,” saying that “You guys need shock treatment,” and that “you folks” were roundly defeated, when the candidate you apparently favor received not even a plurality of the votes cast.

You explain all that by saying it makes you feel better and that your reasons are selfish. I guess maybe I do now understand where you're coming from. I hope you will take steps to help yourself feel better without making others feel worse, which is as the Clintons.
 
 
-9 # babaregi 2016-11-21 21:16
economagic:

This article is about Trump and one of his key positions deals with illegal immigrants and refugees.

Past immigration policy is irrelevant to conditions today.

Believe it or not, Trump won, deal with it!
He won most of the States and if you don't think that's fair then change the rules.

How you feel is up to you, not me, and I really don't concern myself with your feelings. I want to hear sound arguments for your positions and if you guys can't come up with them then, yes, I deem that a quality of being fanatical and closed-minded. Conservatives do this too.
 
 
+11 # reiverpacific 2016-11-21 12:41
Quoting babaregi:
reiverpacific:

Thanks for the advice but I was born here, you are the immigrant as I recall, are you even a naturalized citizen yet?

YOU are free to leave (and take your leftist anti-white racist dogma with you) and conduct your social engineering back where you came from. I like it here and I don't need the likes of you telling me to leave my own country. LOL.

You are so naive to be in denial of the native human tribalism of Mankind to think that you can force-feed masses of disparate people and cultures together without adequate time for assimilation. It doesn't work but your 'progressive' ideology blinds you to accepting a reasonable accommodation of reality. This artificial utopian belief in instant multiculturalism is a method to destabilize communities in order to fragment them and make them easier to control.

This is cultural Marxism and you are one of the useful idiots of the State that seeks control. I'm sure you mean well but I doubt that you have given this much thought or you simply want to exploit the culture here as a parasite does a host; I don't know which it is, you tell me please.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ED9HB6op1GA

Typical redneck "America, love it or leave it" rhetoric; most predictable for your narrow vision.
I like it here too but you'll be chuffed to hear that I intend to return. The NHS or French "Carté Salut" being a main motive.
As for Marxism (Socialism) -guilty as charged and proud of it!
 
 
-8 # babaregi 2016-11-21 21:23
reiverpacific:
I'm not a redneck but I agree with "Love it or leave it" It's one of the better memes to come from rednecks actually.

I don't see why you're so proud of being a socialist (unless you disregard the downsides as you apparently do).

That makes as much sense a being proud of being a a capitalist (with its problems).

As long as you're here legally, I have no problem with you being in the country.
 
 
+12 # librarian1984 2016-11-21 13:03
baba, Your defense is tribalism? Really? Isn't America a nation that empowers the individual? You seem awfully willing to surrender your autonomy and be told what to think.

We say we're better than animals, because of our intelligence, but then we can't rise above tribalism? Well, that IS disappointing. Because tribalism is stupid. Right off the bat you say you don't want input from women or blacks or Muslims or gays or ....

So what are you left with? Let's see, you'd also have to take away the non-victimhood males, and the guys who don't give a rat's, so there's not much left.

I would give half my books away if you could somehow live a week as a woman or a Muslim or a gay or a black American.

You should have to live in a world without any of the contributions to your life that come from all the 'lesser' humans.
 
 
-14 # babaregi 2016-11-21 13:25
Quoting librarian1984:
baba, Your defense is tribalism? Really? Isn't America a nation that empowers the individual? You seem awfully willing to surrender your autonomy and be told what to think.

We say we're better than animals, because of our intelligence, but then we can't rise above tribalism? Well, that IS disappointing. Because tribalism is stupid. Right off the bat you say you don't want input from women or blacks or Muslims or gays or ....

So what are you left with? Let's see, you'd also have to take away the non-victimhood males, and the guys who don't give a rat's, so there's not much left.

I would give half my books away if you could somehow live a week as a woman or a Muslim or a gay or a black American.

You should have to live in a world without any of the contributions to your life that come from all the 'lesser' humans.


You're wildly reacting and not referring to things I actually said.
 
 
+9 # economagic 2016-11-21 15:32
Not so. You did accuse reiverpacific, and implicitly others here by your repeated generalizations , of being "naive" and "in denial of . . . basic human tribalism," as if that WERE a defense for your views.

Striving to understand and even to seek a common good with people different from us and to protect and nurture the innocent and the outcast -- which is what the article above is about -- is neither naive nor reprehensible, but according to some of the wisest sages of the past one of the higher human callings.

Again, I am not entirely clear regarding what you do believe, much less what you hope for, what you would like to see in the world, but words like that and the others surrounding them strongly suggest that you see nothing better for yourself or for humankind in general than living hunkered down behind walls, armed to the teeth.

Why?
 
 
-4 # babaregi 2016-11-21 21:28
Quoting economagic:
Not so. You did accuse reiverpacific, and implicitly others here by your repeated generalizations, of being "naive" and "in denial of . . . basic human tribalism," as if that WERE a defense for your views.

Striving to understand and even to seek a common good with people different from us and to protect and nurture the innocent and the outcast -- which is what the article above is about -- is neither naive nor reprehensible, but according to some of the wisest sages of the past one of the higher human callings.


The most true thing that you said is that you don't get where I'm coming from.

However, that doesn't stop you from making strawman arguments based on what you THINK
I mean.

The links that I often provide clearly explain the naivete of liberals and the often disastrous results of your well-meaning do-gooderism.

You (I'm generalizing) claim to be interested in other points of view but I certainly don't see the ability to look at more than your own liberal talking points.

IMO, that makes you naive and even bigoted while holding the conceit that you are 'beacons of light' shining your wondrous wisdom down on a fallen world of ignorance.

This is a natural human quality as is 'tribalism'. I'm not recommending it but I acknowledge it as a factor to deal with and I suggest you consider the possibility that you are just as tribal (liberal tribe) with all of the shared virtues and faults of any other group.
 
 
+10 # Jaax88 2016-11-21 13:14
babaregi:
Why do not you just go to alt-right, brigtbart (or whatever)or other hate sites and spew your slime ball opinions and so-called intelligence? I would prefer that instead of seeing your name appear here and know I will be reading hateful garbage. On the other hand your awful ideas and opinions are certainly helpful to mobilize good, open-minded, generous and fair Americans to resist you and your kind of people. Either way, we will win and you lose.
 
 
-1 # babaregi 2016-11-21 21:27
Quoting Jaax88:
babaregi:
Why do not you just go to alt-right, brigtbart (or whatever)or other hate sites and spew your slime ball opinions and so-called intelligence? I would prefer that instead of seeing your name appear here and know I will be reading hateful garbage. On the other hand your awful ideas and opinions are certainly helpful to mobilize good, open-minded, generous and fair Americans to resist you and your kind of people. Either way, we will win and you lose.


Not an argument.
 
 
+3 # suzyskier 2016-11-21 18:51
[quote name="babaregi" ]reiverpacific:

Thanks for the advice but I was born here, you are the immigrant as I recall, are you even a naturalized citizen yet?

YOU are free to leave (and take your leftist anti-white racist dogma with you) and conduct your social engineering back where you came from. I like it here and I don't need the likes of you telling me to leave my own country. LOL.



This is cultural Marxism and you are one of the useful idiots of the State that seeks control. I'm sure you mean well but I doubt that you have given this much thought or you simply want to exploit the culture here as a parasite does a host; I don't know which it is, you tell me please.

You are pathetic. This country was not built on racism that is something that white people brought here so they could feel superior. I am white but I certainly do not think I am better than a person of color, another religion or origin. There is one thing I do think I am better at though. I am anti racist anti hate and anti Trump and others that think like him. People like him have something seriously wrong with them. Full of hate just like you!
 
 
-4 # babaregi 2016-11-21 21:51
Quoting suzyskier:
[quote name="babaregi"]reiverpacific:

Thanks for the advice but I was born here, you are the immigrant as I recall, are you even a naturalized citizen yet?

YOU are free to leave (and take your leftist anti-white racist dogma with you) and conduct your social engineering back where you came from. I like it here and I don't need the likes of you telling me to leave my own country. LOL.



This is cultural Marxism and you are one of the useful idiots of the State that seeks control. I'm sure you mean well but I doubt that you have given this much thought or you simply want to exploit the culture here as a parasite does a host; I don't know which it is, you tell me please.

You are pathetic. This country was not built on racism that is something that white people brought here so they could feel superior. I am white but I certainly do not think I am better than a person of color, another religion or origin. There is one thing I do think I am better at though. I am anti racist anti hate and anti Trump and others that think like him. People like him have something seriously wrong with them. Full of hate just like you!


I certainly hope you don't think you're better than anyone because you're white and don't think you're worse than anyone because you're white (although that's all the fashion these days among leftists)
 
 
+5 # Ruth1940 2016-11-21 12:28
When we went through Canada in the early 1960s on the way back home to the D.C. area after visiting family in Iowa, I hoped that soon we would improve relations with Mexico so there was an open border there as there was with Canada - just a sign indicating you were there and similar returning back to the U.S. at Niagara Falls. Instead, the border with Canada is checked too. smh And because too few Americans pay attention to the real causes.

http://marjoriecohn.com/bushs-enemy-du-jour
 
 
+2 # librarian1984 2016-11-21 13:12
Now, just as any rational person would have hoped would NOT happen, we find ourselves dependent upon Donald Trump's goodwill and ability to grow and learn. Who can be optimistic? (Well, maybe Garrison Keillor, eating ice cream and reading Jane Austen.)

Trump's mandate is twofold imo: help workers and destroy the establishment. Good luck to him. The voters just drove a tank called Trump into DC and I hope he breaks the place up. He's well on his way to destroying both parties and he's assisting the suicide of the msm.

He speaks less hawkishly than Hillary did, than both parties do. They're all fine with American empire and the US as the world's enforcers and arms dealers. Well, he's outside the corrupt parties. I hope he actually pulls back on our military presence -- but he's going to face intense pressure from powerful forces to keep the wars going.

I hope he can break the MIC-intel networks too. I find myself hoping that Trump will be successful, at least in a few areas. I hope he can bring millions of jobs to the US. But we need him to open his eyes about climate change.

OTOH the TPP is dead and we've already improved our policy in Syria. He's established tough new rules about lobbying and, perhaps most importantly, the world has not yet ended -- despite all predictions to the contrary. So far so good.

I sure hope Trump will get to know Senator Sanders and be advised by him, that Pelosi is defeated and Schumer steps down.
 
 
+2 # Jaax88 2016-11-21 13:47
1984:
I see your thoughts as "ok trump is bad
based on a long line of historical facts, actions and pronouncement, but let us hope a 72 year old egotist who works to and delights in getting his own way will change and overturn his dominate character and motives." Lot's of luck with that; I have no ability to believe anything like that will happen. Seemingly it is more of your good intentions , but naivety. The only way the American public will get trump to "change," i.e., make good decision for America is to force him to by popular, continued protest and resistance to his agenda
 
 
+4 # librarian1984 2016-11-21 15:27
No. I see someone who was a Democrat until the Clintons took over the party. I see someone who ran to the left of Clinton on several issues. I see someone who has donated to both parties.

I see someone who once said, If I ever run for president I'm going to run as a Republican because they'll believe anything.

I see someone who freaks out the establishment. I see someone who is not beholden to either party and has already adopted strict lobbying rules. I see someone who doesn't want war, someone who wants to stop the free trade deals and end NATO.

I see someone who doesn't want to start WW3.

Plus, I DON'T see the crooked Clintons going back to the WH.

Yes, resistance and protest is required, but those are hardly our only tools. If you want to accuse me of naivete, I would rebut that you lack imagination.
 
 
+4 # Anonymot 2016-11-21 16:19
yes, Yes! You condensed it perfectly. Fog clouds the glasses of the hysterical and fearful who are motivated by years of believing they are victimes of every passing boogeyman. That results in people who never cease quaking and allows the fearmongers to have complete control.

Fortunately, there are a few who will prepare a future by acting positively not negatively. Tulsi Gabbard may be one of the first.
 
 
+5 # economagic 2016-11-21 16:33
This charge of "naivete" is becoming as meaningless as "conservative" and "liberal," used to label anyone with whom we disagree. It is even more ridiculous in that usage than the other terms, as it is most often used by people who are thinking very narrowly.
 
 
+3 # lorenbliss 2016-11-21 16:59
@lib'84: actually the one great relief implicit in Trump's victory is the apparent end of Hillary's intent to start World War III.

Alas, when I consider the Hitler-Stalin Pact in the context of Trump's appointments, I am no longer certain that is any relief at all.
 
 
+2 # lfeuille 2016-11-21 23:36
It appears that Trump will not get us further mired down in Syria, but his Iran policy is troubling. He wants to renegotiate the agreement and has at times called for regime change. What's every worse is that his has appointed people who agree with this nonsense. This could lead to conflict with Russia just as easily as Syria could. He should clarify is intentions toward Iran.
 
 
+2 # librarian1984 2016-11-22 01:05
If there is a consistency in his appointments it's a hard line on Iran.
 
 
+2 # Jaax88 2016-11-21 17:49
Oh, really. Imagination has little to do with it. I think reality is a better standard to go by when rights, fairness, potentially prison and worse are at stake for all. Except I can imagine a better country and world without trump. I do not think liars and conmen can be relied on to do things that are really good for others unless they get their share and most off it first. trump is a known money grubber, so I expect that will be high on his interests, i.e., benefit his assets.
 
 
+2 # librarian1984 2016-11-21 19:21
I said you lack imagination because, according to you, the only tools we have at our disposal are protests and resistance.

If you wanted a world without Trump you should have stood with Senator Sanders instead of Clinton (also a money grubber) who, according to all the data we had, had a smaller chance of beating Trump than did Sanders.
 
 
-1 # Jaax88 2016-11-22 23:37
I do not buy your attempt to hit back. I supported Sanders; voted for him in our state primary. I am a realist, not naive.
On the other hand you made your choice and probably helped elect trump. FYI, I have written several times on RSN that progressives/li berals and others need to work on a long term project assert our values to the point of being able to take control of the politics of the nation and make those values the dominant ones.
 
 
+10 # Jaax88 2016-11-21 13:23
Congratulations to both Rebecca Gordon and Tom Englehardt for their intelligent and inspiring articles. This and more is what needs to be said and done to warn against what trump and his minions and camp followers seem likely to force on Americans if The People do not stand up to trumpian worst motives and actions.

I await the day trump and his chosen kind of people are gone out of power.
 
 
+4 # lorenbliss 2016-11-21 16:39
Immediately after the election I urged a wait-and-see attitude toward Trump, but now by his appointments he has proven beyond any possibility of doubt he is in fact the new Hitler, der Führer of the new Holocaust.

Thus in the Fourth Reich it will be as in the Third.

Some alleged psychics -- though normally I disbelieve such claims -- are already suggesting Donald Trump is the reincarnation of Adolf Hitler.

Reborn Hitler or not, the message of his appointments is that we must prepare for the very worst -- indeed the Auschwitz worst (a horror never before inflicted on USian-born whites)-- if we are to have any chance of survival.

As to babaregi, another brazenly self-proclaimed enemy of humanitarianism now let comfortably out of the closet by Trump's victory, at least we now know him/her as a Nazi collaborator.

As for myself, at age 76, in reaction to Trump's triumph, I am contemplating getting my first-ever tattoo: a hammer and sickle inside a red star over my heart.

(Yes I know it will give the firing squad an aiming point, but frankly I don't care.)
 
 
+4 # Jaax88 2016-11-21 17:38
lorenbliss
Yes, age will do that to you, that is, not care for the quibbles and so-called proper thinking. At 78 I feel the same way and are concerned about the same things you seem to be, however, at this point going to Auschwitz seem a bit too far. Let's plan that outspoken opposition and criticism will prevent the worst.
 
 
+5 # lorenbliss 2016-11-21 17:41
@Jaax88: Goddess grant...though I believe we should indeed prepare for the worst.
 
 
+5 # lfeuille 2016-11-21 23:41
And hope that Democrats will have the guts to filibuster.
 
 
-3 # babaregi 2016-11-21 22:38
lorenbliss

"As to babaregi, another brazenly self-proclaimed enemy of humanitarianism now let comfortably out of the closet by Trump's victory, at least we now know him/her as a Nazi collaborator."

LOL, You're funny!
Don't worry I've saved a quiet little corner in my Fuhrerbunker for you when the Sh*t hits the fan!

This should cheer you up!:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YEhNHNydIs
 
 
+2 # lorenbliss 2016-11-22 07:15
@babaregi -- and here's something for you, a gentle reminder:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijHL10tYVSA
 
 
+2 # economagic 2016-11-22 09:47
Damned elegant traffic direction too! That job has been mostly automated for decades, and most of the people who do in in an emergency are pretty bad, although the ones who aren't are pretty good.
 
 
-4 # babaregi 2016-11-22 10:32
Quoting lorenbliss:
@babaregi -- and here's something for you, a gentle reminder:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijHL10tYVSA


Pretty hot looking young lady! I bet she would know how to handle the Muslim rapists in Sweden that the Socialists invited in.

The feminists there don't seem to want to even talk about it and neither do you guys!

Instead, you attack anyone that criticizes such stupid social policies as a racist and call them Nazis.

That's why I think you SJWs need criticism for your tendency to justify savage behavior in the name of 'cultural diversity' and anti-racism.
 
 
+4 # lfeuille 2016-11-21 23:40
This is my concern. With someone else one could hope that he was just paying off favors, but with Trump, we know he won't want to be involved in the day to day decision making. The people he has chosen to act for him are scary.
 
 
+1 # kandotom 2016-11-21 19:21
I admire all the readers who have the patience to engage with people like Babaregi, but I wouldn't do it.There isn't much to be gained from dignifying such thinking. I know, I know, dialogue is good and all that... But what's the point of arguing with those whose minds are hopelessly set? It's the incessant equivocation by the mainstream media, their basic assumption that "there are always two sides to every issue," even when the two sides are truth and falsehood, fact and superstition - this is the weakness which caused the debacle of a Trump presidency. Must we continue to dignify nonsense?
 
 
0 # economagic 2016-11-21 19:27
(Actually I agree with you. But I have been wondering where this character was coming from, and his(?) vehement and gratuitous insults to reiverpacific provided an opportunity to find out. Apparently not merely a Clinton troll as I had sort of suspected, but a person with some serious issues, apparently one of those angry white former-middle-c lass voters we hear so much about.)
 
 
+1 # babaregi 2016-11-21 22:47
Quoting economagic:
(Actually I agree with you. But I have been wondering where this character was coming from, and his(?) vehement and gratuitous insults to reiverpacific provided an opportunity to find out. Apparently not merely a Clinton troll as I had sort of suspected, but a person with some serious issues, apparently one of those angry white former-middle-class voters we hear so much about.)


Yep, I'm one of those angry older white men and I reluctantly voted for Trump after voting for 'The Socialist' (holding my nose during the primary).

Anyone that isn't angry isn't paying attention. IMO!

I don't agree with republicans normally and they're a pretty screwed up lot but there wasn't much of a choice. I hope Trump's ego and need to be seen as a great leader translates into action that makes it true.
 
 
+1 # librarian1984 2016-11-22 01:12
Wouldn't it be funny if Trump grew into the position and became a great president. I bet a bunch of the people here would remember how they knew 'all along' that Trump would do great things.

'I always liked him!' they would say.

So far things have gone WAY better than predicted. Hell, the stock market went UP the next day. I'll bet that made Hillary madder than anything else.

The press got every single thing wrong but they're still buzzing away, having hissy fits and pretending we aren't on to them. Pathetic.
 
 
-2 # babaregi 2016-11-21 22:58
kandotom:
"But what's the point of arguing with those whose minds are hopelessly set? "

Good question but a shaky assumption about me.
But if it puts wind in your sails, don't let me deter you!
 
 
+2 # lfeuille 2016-11-21 23:45
The point would be to possibly influence others who may not be actively participating. He, of course, is a hopeless case. I usually don't have the stomach either.
 
 
+5 # StuBones1960 2016-11-21 22:50
Babaregi -- just because tribalism is human doesn't mean it's desirable. I look forward to the day we can rise above it.

Librarian1984 -- more telling than what Trump has said and done in the past is who he's surrounding himself with now. His inner circle is composed of theocrats and white supremacists. His environmental team is composed of billionaires who only want to get richer without thought to the consequences. And his civil rights and legal team is men who never saw a person of color who wasn't guilty of something, even if it has to be faked.
 
 
-3 # babaregi 2016-11-21 23:05
StuBones:

"Babaregi -- just because tribalism is human doesn't mean it's desirable. I look forward to the day we can rise above it"

Until you are willing to acknowledge being a human being and embrace all of it or own it, it will own you.
 
 
+2 # StuBones1960 2016-11-21 23:13
Wow, do you have a dim view of humanity.
 
 
-1 # babaregi 2016-11-22 00:21
Quoting StuBones1960:
Wow, do you have a dim view of humanity.


Since when is being objective the same as being negative?

Maybe in liberal-la-la-l and we can all pretend that there is no shadow in ourselves but in the real world, optimism need not be blinded by ideology.

A genuine optimism includes acknowledgement of limitations and strives to find work-arounds.

Pretending something isn't so merely hides it from view so that it operates outside of conscious control.

If you are not in touch with your own dark side, you will still feel it but not recognize it within your own nature and, therefor project it on others (thinking its source is exclusively outside yourself), then you battle with it as an apparently external force.

You can't afford to not have a 'Trump' to fixate on, otherwise you would be feeling bad ju-ju in the place where you stand with no one around to blame it on and realize it might have something to do with you.

Face your Demons, young Skywalker, and let the Force flow through you!
 
 
+2 # StuBones1960 2016-11-22 03:53
I don't deny I have a dark side. However, I can make the conscious choice to not let it rule me.

I'm saddened to learn you're this weak.
 
 
-1 # babaregi 2016-11-22 10:23
Quoting StuBones1960:
I don't deny I have a dark side. However, I can make the conscious choice to not let it rule me.

I'm saddened to learn you're this weak.


Another insult, very good!
 
 
+2 # economagic 2016-11-22 07:01
"A genuine optimism includes acknowledgement of limitations and strives to find work-arounds.

Pretending something isn't so merely hides it from view so that it operates outside of conscious control."

Your continuing with such sweeping and belittling assumptions about people about whom you know almost nothing seems to suggest you wouldn't know it if you saw it. In fact it is here before your eyes.
 
 
0 # babaregi 2016-11-22 10:25
Quoting economagic:
"A genuine optimism includes acknowledgement of limitations and strives to find work-arounds.

Pretending something isn't so merely hides it from view so that it operates outside of conscious control."

Your continuing with such sweeping and belittling assumptions about people about whom you know almost nothing seems to suggest you wouldn't know it if you saw it. In fact it is here before your eyes.


I can only respond to what you present. If you have something insightful to say, no one is stopping you from sharing.
 
 
+2 # economagic 2016-11-22 20:58
Learn to read deeply. What I have to say is all there, in 1500-character text bites. You are overlooking or ignoring it, for whatever reason. My last statement in this thread, if you wish to have the last word, fire away.
 
 
+2 # economagic 2016-11-22 06:56
# babaregi 2016-11-21 23:05
"Until you are willing to acknowledge being a human being and embrace all of it or own it, it will own you."

Pretty shaky assumption there too, more like an accusation.
 
 
+1 # StuBones1960 2016-11-22 10:54
Quoting economagic:
# babaregi 2016-11-21 23:05
"Until you are willing to acknowledge being a human being and embrace all of it or own it, it will own you."

Pretty shaky assumption there too, more like an accusation.

Or a self analysis.
 
 
+4 # librarian1984 2016-11-22 01:25
Genetics is not destiny. Divinely given or not, will is a powerful force, and so is intellect. Of course humans can transcend tribalism, though some choose not to. A very weak argument imo.

Agreed, the appointees and nominees do not give one hope. I'm fairly cheerful, when I'm not angry, but it's not easy to muster much hope.

Well .. it IS possible his foreign policy team will be better than the domestic.
 
 
+2 # Jadhu 2016-11-22 03:49
People are not coming to the U.S. anymore. Now, after the elections, there is a lot of talk of leaving. Is that what you guys wanted? Not being liked? Who'll stay in the Trump Hotels?
 

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