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Krugman writes: "Zombie ideas are claims that should have been killed by evidence, but just keep shambling along. Cockroaches are claims that disappear for a while when proved ludicrously wrong, but just keep on coming back. I think of the notion that Obamacare hasn't really reduced the number of uninsured as a cockroach."

Paul Krugman. (photo: NYT)
Paul Krugman. (photo: NYT)


Obamacare and the Cockroaches

By Paul Krugman, The New York Times

09 December 15

 

n policy discourse, zombies and cockroaches are somewhat different.

Zombie ideas are claims that should have been killed by evidence, but just keep shambling along, like the notion that vast numbers of Canadians, frustrated by socialized medicine, come to America in search of treatment. (It was in a paper about that and other myths that I first encountered the zombie terminology.) Cockroaches are claims that disappear for a while when proved ludicrously wrong, but just keep on coming back.

I think of the notion that Obamacare hasn’t really reduced the number of uninsured as a cockroach; it seemed to me that it subsided for a while after the big enrollment numbers of 2014 and the sharp drop in uninsurance rates. And really, how could you continue to make that claim given the results shown above, which are corroborated by independent sources like Gallup?

Data covering domestic health insurance. (photo: National Center for Health Statistics)

Data covering domestic health insurance. (photo: National Center for Health Statistics)


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+4 # rich black 2015-12-09 12:17
"The cost of Obamacare could rise for millions of Americans next year, with one insurer proposing a 50 percent hike in premiums, fueling the controversy about just how “affordable” the Affordable Care Act really is.

The eye-popping 50 percent hike by New Mexico insurer Blue Cross Blue Shield is an outlier, and state officials may not allow it to go through. But health insurance experts are predicting that premiums will rise more significantly in 2016 than in the first two years of Obamacare exchange coverage. In 2015, for example, premiums increased by an average of 5.4 percent, according to PwC’s Health Research Institute.

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/05/how-affordable-is-the-affordable-care-act-118428#ixzz3tqgIRyg6

With 76% of Americans living paycheck to paycheck (CNN), this rise in healthcare costs could be financially debilitating for this large portion of the US population.
 
 
+31 # maverita 2015-12-09 14:59
my affordable care premiums have gone down a few dollars for 2016! it is not perfect with a $4K deductible, but i am now receiving my annual checkups, blood work, vaccines, and preventive testing covered. better than nothing and with the stipends, very affordable.
 
 
+66 # janla 2015-12-09 15:30
Healthcare should not be a for profit institution. The fact that it is highly profitable for some at the expense of the majority says a lot about the flows in our system.
 
 
-43 # Roland 2015-12-09 16:09
The fact that you don't know where the new drugs and procedures are coming from, and why, is scary.

If not for profit, what do you think our healthcare would look like?
 
 
+29 # ronjazz 2015-12-09 16:27
Quoting Roland:
The fact that you don't know where the new drugs and procedures are coming from, and why, is scary.

If not for profit, what do you think our healthcare would look like?


Well, stupid, medical research is not based on profits. You are both zombie and cockroach.
 
 
-21 # Roland 2015-12-09 19:00
Really - not based on profit? What new drugs have been made available recently without a profit motive?

What new procedures and equipment?
 
 
+32 # Reductio Ad Absurdum 2015-12-09 19:26
Much of medical and pharmaceutical research is in one way or another government funded. Other developed countries have good healthcare without ripping off the population, but conservatives repeatedly propose a false choice that we either put up with healthcare profiteering or have no new drugs or quality healthcare. That is contemptible bullshit. Other countries have the latter without the former, and so could the USA if conservatives would stop making up stories and excuses for why we shouldn't.

Flying Americans to Europe for low-cost quality medical procedures is now a cottage industry in America. Where do they get their drugs?

We can trim 30% of the fat and largess out of our healthcare system just by end-running the health insurance industry that has given us $5 Band-Aids and $30 bags of ice.
 
 
+20 # reiverpacific 2015-12-09 18:13
Quoting Roland:
The fact that you don't know where the new drugs and procedures are coming from, and why, is scary.

If not for profit, what do you think our healthcare would look like?


Strange question from one who is surrounded by its results and who can see it first had.
It's a bloody joke as well as being one of the top causes of bankruptcy across the country, a fact completely incomprehensibl e to other "Civilized" nations with Universal Healthcare -and I've observed this around the world, as well as experiencing said bankruptcy WITH self-employed insurance.
You need to get out a bit more and take y'r blinkers off Bubba!
 
 
+20 # Kiwikid 2015-12-09 19:08
"If not for profit, what do you think our healthcare would look like?"

Roland, it would loook like it does in New Zealand where medicine is socialised - access is effectively free for all. While not perfect it means that every one gets what they need. If one 'needs' more, there is always the private sector. The biggest threat to our system is represented by the TPPA and the muscle of American Corporations - particularly Big Pharma and their capacity to call the shots on our state owned, state run pharmaceuticals buying agency (which as a single purchaser/suppl ier buys for the whole country using evidence based criteria on what works, and its muscle as a single purchaser to get the best deals). What is there not to like?
 
 
+6 # Karlus58 2015-12-10 11:06
It would look like Medicare bozo! Period!!
 
 
-59 # Roland 2015-12-09 13:41
The cockroaches told everyone at the time Obamacare was written, that the govt. couldn’t promise that you could keep your doctor or your health plan (even, Hillary knew that back in 1993). They were correct.

They said that Obamacare, as written, was unsustainable. Even with the changes Obama has made to the ACA, it still appears to be unsustainable as shown by the losses the vast majority of healthcare coops have sustained. If I remember correctly, out of 23, 9 have gone under with more expected to. Only 4 have shown a profit.

The cockroaches said Obama was wrong to say the ACA would decrease premiums by $2,500.00 per family. They were correct.

In the summer of 2009, Obama addressed the cost of the ACA. He said he would stop the $50B a year of fraud in Medicare and put this saving towards the ACA, to help pay for it. Can you believe that?! It is generally accepted that there is now $58B a year of Medicare fraud.

Krugman claims the cockroaches said, that there were vast numbers of Canadians coming to the US for treatments. Let’s assume one did say that. Vast is a relative / subjective term. We know of the wait times in Canada and we know some who have come here, have said that they wouldn’t have survived the wait times in Canada.
 
 
+18 # ronjazz 2015-12-09 16:28
Quoting Roland:
The cockroaches told everyone at the time Obamacare was written, that the govt. couldn’t promise that you could keep your doctor or your health plan (even, Hillary knew that back in 1993). They were correct.

They said that Obamacare, as written, was unsustainable. Even with the changes Obama has made to the ACA, it still appears to be unsustainable as shown by the losses the vast majority of healthcare coops have sustained. If I remember correctly, out of 23, 9 have gone under with more expected to. Only 4 have shown a profit.

The cockroaches said Obama was wrong to say the ACA would decrease premiums by $2,500.00 per family. They were correct.

In the summer of 2009, Obama addressed the cost of the ACA. He said he would stop the $50B a year of fraud in Medicare and put this saving towards the ACA, to help pay for it. Can you believe that?! It is generally accepted that there is now $58B a year of Medicare fraud.

Krugman claims the cockroaches said, that there were vast numbers of Canadians coming to the US for treatments. Let’s assume one did say that. Vast is a relative / subjective term. We know of the wait times in Canada and we know some who have come here, have said that they wouldn’t have survived the wait times in Canada.


Wrong on every point, as always, cockroach. Fact-free, as usual.
 
 
-18 # Roland 2015-12-09 19:12
How can you make such a statement?. Each is true. You can research each. Do you want to see Obama on youtube mentioning the $2,500.00 or didn't you see that Obama got lie of the year from politico?
When facts are inconvenient you just deny them?

If you and others are that blind to what is happening, it is no wonder you have such misguided thoughts.
 
 
-51 # Roland 2015-12-09 13:45
The US for now still has the best health care in the world if you are insured.
Many other countries with single payer, will not pay for the costs of some operations and drugs. The 15 member panel ( you can call this panel whatever you want to, but the ACA calls it the Independent Payment Advisory Board) who will soon make such decisions for us in the US, will determine what drugs and procedures we will be able go have. These cockroaches have pointed this out often and again, are correct.

There are still around 30M people without health insurance in the US. There were much cheaper and more efficient ways to insure people than by this act.

I am sure the term cockroach is very appropriate to the left when they think of these people. Almost every time these cockroaches come out, it is an unpleasant experience for them because it again exposes their errors.
 
 
+25 # bmiluski 2015-12-09 16:23
Roland....It might look a lot like the healthcare in Canada, England, Scotland, Ireland, Sweden, Denmark, etc.
If my mother would have had to depend on our healthcare system instead of the National Health Care system in England, I would have been dead or at the very least, my leg would have been amputated.
Please, for your own sake Roland STOP believing the bullshit the medical and pharma lies that come out of the mouths of their republican shills.
 
 
-20 # Roland 2015-12-09 19:22
So it isn't true that certain countries refuse to pay for certain medications that we have access to here?

It isn't true that in England in order to improve the waiting time at emergency rooms they mandated a certain length of time? It isn't true that this caused ambulances to sit outside of hospitals with patients and thus prevented these ambulances from getting to others who needed them?

It isn't true that some from Canada came here because they couldn't wait to be seen in Canada?

One of my best friends lives in England. He says their healthcare is a awful if you rely on the govt.
 
 
+6 # bmiluski 2015-12-10 11:41
Roland, either you or your friend is lying. Or, thanks to Maggie Smith, it has been broken.
As a child living in England, I was in a hospital on the average of twice a year. The last time, I was in a hospital for a month to get my tonsils out. Can you imagine the costs my parents would have had were it not for England's National Health System? And by the way, I never saw the inside of an emergency ward. The doctor's ALWAYS came to the house. Yes, house calls....do you even know what that is?
 
 
+22 # bmiluski 2015-12-09 16:26
"There are still around 30M people without health insurance in the US. There were much cheaper and more efficient ways to insure people than by this act."
----------------------
Yes Roland, there were cheaper and more efficient ways to insure people but thanks to the republican cockroaches, those plans were blocked time and time again.
 
 
-23 # Roland 2015-12-09 19:23
The democrats could have passed such a program on their own. The same way they passed the ACA. They didn't need the republicans.

And they wanted no input from them
 
 
0 # Karlus58 2015-12-10 11:14
Now that I agree with you. The Democrats are complicit in the boondoggle. Leiberman being the first. His wife works for a major carrier. Ben Carson, Evan Bly, etc,etc.. They are all responsible.
 
 
+16 # ronjazz 2015-12-09 16:29
Quoting Roland:
The US for now still has the best health care in the world if you are insured.
Many other countries with single payer, will not pay for the costs of some operations and drugs. The 15 member panel ( you can call this panel whatever you want to, but the ACA calls it the Independent Payment Advisory Board) who will soon make such decisions for us in the US, will determine what drugs and procedures we will be able go have. These cockroaches have pointed this out often and again, are correct.

There are still around 30M people without health insurance in the US. There were much cheaper and more efficient ways to insure people than by this act.

I am sure the term cockroach is very appropriate to the left when they think of these people. Almost every time these cockroaches come out, it is an unpleasant experience for them because it again exposes their errors.



Cockroach is a perfect term for a fact-free lair like you. You are only exposing your ignorant hatred of freedom.
 
 
+14 # bmiluski 2015-12-09 17:10
ronjazz....it's not roland's hatred of freedom. It's his inability to think on his own. It's just so much easier to repeat lies then to question them.
 
 
-18 # Roland 2015-12-09 19:25
you can say what I post is false. It isn't, You and everyone else here can easily find it online from reliable sources.
 
 
+18 # reiverpacific 2015-12-09 18:20
[quote name="Roland"]T he US for now still has the best health care in the world if you are insured.
(/quote]
Bollocks.
It has one of the least success rates in the so-called advance nations in direct proportion to what "quality" of insurance one can afford.
In Universal Care, Dental, Mental, Vision, Chiropractic, prescriptions and some naturopathy are all covered by a relative small tax deducted by statute from wage earners and the self-employed so that EVERYBODY is covered, cradle-to-coffi n and the retired pay nothing.
Insurance is no substitution for unconditional and unlimited care and is indeed exploitive and exclusionary.
Until the US has universal care, it can't claim to be civilized.
 
 
+17 # Texas Aggie 2015-12-09 18:41
Wouldn't it be nice if you knew what you were talking about?

Not only will other countries not pay for some drugs and procedures that have been shown to be worthless or worse, but here in the US, the insurance companies do the very same thing except in their cases, the criteria are the cost of the drug or procedure. And the Advisory Board does not have the power that you ascribe to it. All it does is make recommendations based on the literature. Following those recommendations is up to the care provider.

The 30 M people without insurance by and large are those Medicaid eligible people in red states which refuse to insure them. The problem isn't the ACA. The problem is the SC which gave the states the power to refuse to take care of their citizens. And no one is arguing that there aren't cheaper, better and more efficient ways to insure people, but thanks to the power of corporations, they are politically impossible because they don't result in massive profits.
 
 
-17 # Roland 2015-12-09 19:43
I think you should really read some business publications which explain how drug companies sell drugs. They point out successful drugs that they can sell here, but not overseas even at reduced prices, because those systems are unwilling to pay for them.
The Advisory Board hasn't been set up as yet and it will have the power to determine what they feel is affordable. They will have the final say.
 
 
+12 # ericlipps 2015-12-09 20:29
Quoting Roland:
The US for now still has the best health care in the world if you are insured.
Many other countries with single payer, will not pay for the costs of some operations and drugs.

Actually, Roland, we don't have the best health care, except for very high-end technological medicine. For routine preventive care, treatment of simple illnesses and injuries, prenatal care, birthing and infant care (except, as noted, for very advanced--and expensive--treatments and operations) other nations do outperform us.

Your statement about who "will decide what drugs and procedures we will be able to have" ignores the reality that under the pre-Obamacare system, hospitals, pharmaceutical companies determined the drugs and procedures Americans could have by setting prices at the highest level the market could bear.
Quote:
There are still around 30M people without health insurance in the US. There were much cheaper and more efficient ways to insure people than by this act.
That, Roland, is a statement of faith. If you have anything substantive to back up that claim, let's hear it.
Quote:
I am sure the term cockroach is very appropriate to the left when they think of these people. Almost every time these cockroaches come out, it is an unpleasant experience for them because it again exposes their errors.
Another statement of faith, combined with cheap insults. Scuttle back into your dark hole, Roland.
 
 
+6 # pietheyn07 2015-12-09 22:53
It amazes me how intelligent people fall into Roland's web, then waste their emotional energy struggling to correct him, for reasons unknown.
 
 
-8 # Roland 2015-12-10 08:28
to ericlipps
If the drug manufacturers don't feel the Board will allow for a high enough price, it will impact what is developed. What the market would bear will be determined by the Board. Like in some other countries this may keep drugs from us.

If you look at my other posts I have mentioned better policies - tort reform, free clinics and increasing competition by allowing health insurance companies to compete across state lines.

The last statement isn't a statement of faith and it is not an insult. I am agreeing with the author as to his terminology and then pointing out how unpleasant these people are to the left.
 
 
+4 # Karlus58 2015-12-10 11:10
Yeah your right. They won't pay to fatten up your lips to think you look better.
 
 
+36 # Shades of gray matter 2015-12-09 14:10
People think they're geniuses for pointing out that Obamacare isn't perfect. I would have preferred more Public Options beyond Medicaid and Subsidies, but we have a Start where we had none before. The ZOMBIE COCKROACHES are the obscene cruelties of profiteering from people's hardships. Add Uncle Sam medicare like option to the exchanges, actual Competitor of last resort?
 
 
-40 # Roland 2015-12-09 15:07
The people pointing out the flaws don't think they are geniuses. They think the people who fell for the lies, which were told about Obamacare, in order to get it passed, were dopes. If these false promises weren't made by Obama the law would have never been passed.
 
 
+19 # ronjazz 2015-12-09 16:30
Quoting Roland:
The people pointing out the flaws don't think they are geniuses. They think the people who fell for the lies, which were told about Obamacare, in order to get it passed, were dopes. If these false promises weren't made by Obama the law would have never been passed.


There were no lies told about Obamacare, and it's working quite well, especially compared to your solution, which is, and always has been, to let people die.
 
 
-16 # Roland 2015-12-09 19:45
Can you get any sillier? Just deny the facts and then make one up. You have no clue what the republicans have proposed, do you?
 
 
+29 # Dgreenb1 2015-12-09 14:43
Roland, you would be a leading zombie cockroach. Is it perfect? Of course not, but in an adult society people sit down and work things out instead of trying to repeal it over fifty times at tax payers expense. You can cherry pick facts until you turn blue in the face, but our health care system which is understood to be broken by virtually every one with half a brain needed to be fixed and the ACA is a start. Why don't you pull your pompous self-righteous head out and mosey back on over to foxnews whose line of bs you seem to have swallowed whole
 
 
-35 # Roland 2015-12-09 15:01
These cockroaches predicted in advance, that the problems listed above would occur, but the democrats didn't listen.

The democrats wouldn't allow any input from them. They decided to pass it without a single republican vote. Obama had to bribe and lie to the last 3 senators in order to get them to go along. The democrats own it and therefore must defend it no matter how bad it is.
 
 
+29 # MillValleyMaven 2015-12-09 15:15
Quoting Roland:
The democrats own it and therefore must defend it no matter how bad it is.


And Republicans will attack it, no matter how good it is.
 
 
-29 # Roland 2015-12-09 15:39
That is true to some extent, but the negatives to the ACA outweigh the benefits for the cost.
 
 
+17 # ronjazz 2015-12-09 16:31
Quoting Roland:
That is true to some extent, but the negatives to the ACA outweigh the benefits for the cost.


That's simply the cockroach opinion, based on nothing but lies and hate.
 
 
+15 # guomashi 2015-12-09 17:57
Quoting Roland:
That is true to some extent, but the negatives to the ACA outweigh the benefits for the cost.


It's one thing to be stupid.
It's another to put it on display and brag about it.
A word to the not-so-wise.

Show your math or go hide under the refrigerator with the rest of the cockroaches.
 
 
-12 # Roland 2015-12-09 19:52
Have you not seen the math on the number of healthcare co-ops that have failed and how few are profitable? How can I debate with people that have no information other than that, which their liberal media presents?

Have you not seen any of the other facts I have presented. For heavens sake go online and open you mind.
 
 
+1 # reiverpacific 2015-12-10 17:40
Quoting Roland:
Have you not seen the math on the number of healthcare co-ops that have failed and how few are profitable? How can I debate with people that have no information other than that, which their liberal media presents?

Have you not seen any of the other facts I have presented. For heavens sake go online and open you mind.


file:///Users/brianjohnstone/Desktop/We’re%20Not%20No.%201!%20We’re%20Not%20No.%201!.webarchive
Dig?
 
 
+7 # ericlipps 2015-12-09 20:32
Quoting Roland:
That is true to some extent, but the negatives to the ACA outweigh the benefits for the cost.

Another statement of faith with nothing to back it up--just the flat assertion, period.
 
 
-8 # Roland 2015-12-10 08:35
How about all the facts I have posted on this page. And one other thing, the situation is worse than I said. 12 of the 23 healthcare co-op are shutting down. And more are expected to fail.
 
 
+16 # ronjazz 2015-12-09 16:31
Quoting Roland:
These cockroaches predicted in advance, that the problems listed above would occur, but the democrats didn't listen.

The democrats wouldn't allow any input from them. They decided to pass it without a single republican vote. Obama had to bribe and lie to the last 3 senators in order to get them to go along. The democrats own it and therefore must defend it no matter how bad it is.


You cockroaches were wrong on every prediction, by the way, and the only lies we hear come from you. Democrats passed it without a single Republican vote because Republicans want Americans to die by the thousands.
 
 
+10 # bmiluski 2015-12-09 17:12
ronjaz....I don't believe republicans care whether or not people die. All they care about is taking care of the 1% and hoping for some of their crumbs.
 
 
-11 # Roland 2015-12-09 19:55
I see the left has done a good job brainwashing you. Yes I only care about the top 1% so that I can get some of their crumbs.

Again, it is easier for the left to make such mindless accusations than to debate the facts.
 
 
+10 # Texas Aggie 2015-12-09 18:46
I doubt that the republicans WANT Americans to do by the thousands. It's just that they don't care whether other people live or die. If keeping those people alive were a gigantic source of revenue for certain people, then they would be quite happy to keep people alive, but as long as someone has to pay for it, they would rather let them die. See Roland above.
 
 
+1 # Texas Aggie 2015-12-09 18:47
Sorry, B, I didn't see your post when I posted.
 
 
-11 # Roland 2015-12-09 20:00
If true why do republicans give more to charity than democrats when taking income into account?

for proof just google - republicans give more to charity
 
 
+13 # PeacefulGarden 2015-12-09 15:28
Paul, it is one thing to have health insurance and another thing to have health care. Okay. So, many of us now have health insurance, but given the deductibles and other small print, people like me, a free lance musician with the tin or zinc plan, I still cannot afford to go to a doctor.

Also, your attention to ACA is void of the fact that premiums are rapidly increasing over the course of 2 years along with the rise in deductibles, which is making me need blood pressure pills.

I would like to support the ACA, but it is nothing but a bailout of the health insurance industry.

And yes Roland, health insurance CEO(s) are full of shit; the claim that they are not making money is bullshit, plain and simple.

How, on this simple planet did some complex idiot implement a scam to profit from people with illnesses is absurd. The fact that our government is now in the business of forcing us to participate in the scam is a clear sign that the boundaries of government and business were never clear, ever. We have no government.

Yet, you are a cockaroach Roland, unless you can address how you can make a profit from caring for a cancer patient; and please do it morally, which you can't.
 
 
-27 # Roland 2015-12-09 15:50
If it is so profitable why are so many healthcare co-ops closing down?

Without the profit motive, the new drugs to fight cancer would not be coming out.

The IPAB may eventually make it unprofitable for some new drugs, by not paying for them. If we don't pay for them we won't get them. This is happening in some countries with single payer.
 
 
+11 # ronjazz 2015-12-09 16:33
Quoting Roland:
If it is so profitable why are so many healthcare co-ops closing down?

Without the profit motive, the new drugs to fight cancer would not be coming out.

The IPAB may eventually make it unprofitable for some new drugs, by not paying for them. If we don't pay for them we won't get them. This is happening in some countries with single payer.


What makes you think "so many" healthcare co-ops are closing down, cockroach? Theya ren't liar.
 
 
-7 # Roland 2015-12-10 08:37
it is your type of ignorance that I am trying to fight on this site. 12 out of 23 are closing and more are in trouble.

Again easy to google, but you won't take you head out of the sand.
 
 
+11 # PeacefulGarden 2015-12-09 16:51
That is the point. Roland, you cannot profit off of someone's illness. It will not work. Yet, this is the model. Understand? Please think harder.

Roland, you are doing the roach thing with the "no cancer drugs".

Okay, what is it, unaffordable cancer drugs or no cancer drugs? Is that the bullshit you are spitting out?
 
 
+7 # reiverpacific 2015-12-09 18:27
Quoting Roland:
If it is so profitable why are so many healthcare co-ops closing down?

Without the profit motive, the new drugs to fight cancer would not be coming out.

The IPAB may eventually make it unprofitable for some new drugs, by not paying for them. If we don't pay for them we won't get them. This is happening in some countries with single payer.


Look; forget "Profit", it has no place in a human right.
All else is fluff; -at least the ACA tried, however admittedly incompletely; and sadly, it's still a gift to big pharma and insurance.
And show me the nations with universal care where drugs are limited or unavailable.
Your knowledge of the subject is as limited as your obvious atrophied experience of life outside y'r own tiny bubble, so belt up and quit bloviating about places and people of which you have no direct knowledge.
You're quite at liberty to be happy with y'r "coverage" with all it's deductions, co-pays, limitations and exclusions but don't try to sell it to others who know better.
 
 
+23 # Dgreenb1 2015-12-09 15:38
Roland, easy to spew out a bunch of undocumented facts. Yes the US has great health care. Unfortunately it is available only to a small fraction of the population. That's why we are ranked 37th in the world in quality of health care. And what has your cretinous party offered as an alternative in six years? Nothing, nada, zilch. Throwing stones is easy, building something is a lot harder and requires a modicum of intelligence. While you're spewing your rubbish see if you can document something instead of spitting out Sean Hannity.
 
 
-21 # Roland 2015-12-09 16:06
What I mentioned is documented. Which facts aren't you familiar with? You can read some of my points in the posts of people getting likes. This being the case it is weird for me to get so many dislikes.

The world quality rankings are somewhat skewed. An example is the infant mortality rate. It is under reported in many countries because they don't consider some births viable and therefore don't count them.

Still the right has presented ideas but unfortunately they don't present them in one platform. They should. Tort reform and free clinics are two of them. The democrats didn't try to get any republicans on board. They didn't need to. They own this mess.
 
 
+7 # ronjazz 2015-12-09 16:35
WQuoting Roland:
What I mentioned is documented. Which facts aren't you familiar with? You can read some of my points in the posts of people getting likes. This being the case it is weird for me to get so many dislikes.

The world quality rankings are somewhat skewed. An example is the infant mortality rate. It is under reported in many countries because they don't consider some births viable and therefore don't count them.

Still the right has presented ideas but unfortunately they don't present them in one platform. They should. Tort reform and free clinics are two of them. The democrats didn't try to get any republicans on board. They didn't need to. They own this mess.


What you mentioned is not documented, cockroach. And the right has presented not a single idea. Tort reform is a red herring, and irrelevant, and free clinics are hilarious, coming from a cockroach. The democrats PROUDLY own this first step to a real solution; the rEpublicans are still interested in killing Americans in large numbers.
 
 
-12 # Roland 2015-12-09 20:02
you are too silly to respond to anymore
 
 
+13 # JCM 2015-12-09 17:53
Roland: What you don't mention is that republican budget cuts have had more to do with Coops closing then Obamacare. Just like the Coop in Kentucky we talked about and I documented, it was the republican legislature that killed it.

"GOP-forced budget cuts crippled many co-ops’ chances to thrive." When the republicans say that government doesn't work, it is a self fulfilling prophecy.
 
 
+7 # reiverpacific 2015-12-09 18:33
Quoting Roland:


"The world quality rankings are somewhat skewed".


It's your determined and blinkered denial of universally known and accepted facts from many diverse sources that is skewed.
But don't expect to be persuasive here.
Now I think that we've all wasted too much time and digital energy trying to counter y'y narrow and unsubstantiated nonsense.
Now go take a pill -if you can afford it!
 
 
-7 # Roland 2015-12-10 08:47
I have read a few articles about your universally known and accepted facts from many diverse (liberal) sources. I guess you have no idea why people question those facts.

I will give you a hint. It isn't because the people, who donate the most to charity when taking incomes into account, want others to suffer or die. And it isn't because those same people want to make money.
 
 
+3 # reiverpacific 2015-12-10 10:38
"Ah Rollie, Rollie, you'll get your fairin'.
In Hell they'll roast ye like a Herrin'!"
You're backing off into y'r usual diversionary tactics.
Charity has nothing to do with this discussion but -as you brought the subject up, people in countries with universal care can divert their charitable donations into a wider range of causes that may otherwise have been omitted.
You can read all you like -and please choose from more creditable sources than the "Daily Express- but until you've EXPERIENCED all systems -and I'm NOT just talking about the UK -I've seen Universal work through my late ex-wife's experiences, in many "civilized"nati ons around the world, so until you get some direct personal experience, you're in no position to waffle on against something you don't even WANT to understand.
Your antiquated, head-in-the-san d anti-progress, blinkered mindset is rather like a vegan writing a recipe and method for making a steak pie!
You represent the worst kind of Reactionary apologist for corporate exploitation in denial of a basic human right, like the politicians -mostly Republicans but some Blue Dawg DemPublicans also- who work to deny the grassroots the very 5**** benefits their taxes pay for, and are holding this potentially great country back from joining the rest of the civilized world.
Go out into the real world, get a bit of experience -there's really NO substitute- and get back to us in a few years.
I'm done with you; read and rant on all you like.
 
 
+10 # Texas Aggie 2015-12-09 18:59
Tort reform here in TX, which is over ten years in existence, has done absolutely nothing to lower medical costs. All it has done is attract the charlatans and incompetents to TX so they can "practice" free of any hindrance. And "free" clinics need to be paid for, in other words, ACA.

But when you say that the Democrats didn't try to get any republicans on board, you lose any credibility you wish you had. Your nose is right out the door and your pants are burning with an unquenchable fire. The Democrats bent over backwards delaying the start of ACA for a couple years trying to get the republicans to cooperate, to share their ideas. All the republicans did was offer poison pills in an attempt to destroy it, and even some of those poison pills were accepted to no avail. The party that from the get go decided to obstruct everything that Obama did in order to make him a one term president never had any intention of helping to improve the ACA.
 
 
-8 # Roland 2015-12-10 08:41
first of all there wasn't a couple of years - this was accomplished in the winter of 2009/2010. Obama had been in office 1 year.

The left accepted no ideas from the right because they didn't have to negotiate. They could have passed it in even less time had the democrats agreed among themselves.
 
 
0 # reiverpacific 2015-12-10 17:41
Quoting Roland:
What I mentioned is documented. Which facts aren't you familiar with? You can read some of my points in the posts of people getting likes. This being the case it is weird for me to get so many dislikes.

The world quality rankings are somewhat skewed. An example is the infant mortality rate. It is under reported in many countries because they don't consider some births viable and therefore don't count them.

Still the right has presented ideas but unfortunately they don't present them in one platform. They should. Tort reform and free clinics are two of them. The democrats didn't try to get any republicans on board. They didn't need to. They own this mess.


file:///Users/brianjohnstone/Desktop/We’re%20Not%20No.%201!%20We’re%20Not%20No.%201!.webarchive.
Dig?
 
 
+6 # bmiluski 2015-12-09 16:30
Well said Dgreen...unfort unately, since Roland cannot rise up to your challenge, he'll just keep on spewing more repug regurgitated garbage.
 
 
-6 # Roland 2015-12-10 08:55
it appears that facts that don't agree with your left wing philosophy are regurgitated garbage.
 
 
0 # reiverpacific 2015-12-10 17:41
Quoting Roland:
it appears that facts that don't agree with your left wing philosophy are regurgitated garbage.


file:///Users/brianjohnstone/Desktop/We’re%20Not%20No.%201!%20We’re%20Not%20No.%201!.webarchive
Dig?
 
 
+13 # Shades of gray matter 2015-12-09 16:10
GLOBAL Big Pharmas, worse than cockroaches, spend their ill gotten windfall profits NOT on basic research, but on manipulative marketing. Phucking Pharmas lie about who produces helpful drugs. Publicly and philanthropical ly financed research accounts for most medical breakthroughs, then Global Pharmas bribe their way to licensing rights, in order to exploit the desperate. They make DUPES, SUCKERS out of their easily tricked apologists.
 
 
+7 # Texas Aggie 2015-12-09 19:02
When their marketing budgets are multiples of their research budgets, then you know what they deem important. And this little turkey who raised the price of Daraprim by 1,000 times is not unique.
 
 
+9 # Shades of gray matter 2015-12-09 16:17
But, yes, 60-Senate-Votes Care is FLAWED. 40 Republiroaches and a few of Dem zombies forced a bunch of shit in, some good things out. But for those blood suckers we might have gotten a significantly better bill. Assign blame where blame is due. I bet there were 50 votes + VP Biden for a decent bill. Who blocked that, forced compromising our health? Yes, there were multiple votes, not all subject to filibuster.
 
 
-6 # Roland 2015-12-10 09:00
You are so misguided I am pulling my hair out.

You had 60 dem. senators! Do you know what that means?

What did the republiroaches force into the ACA?

They didn't have anything to do with it at all. The left needed and got none of their votes. Why would the left do something for them and get nothing in return?
 
 
+13 # bardphile 2015-12-09 16:22
It's true that most insurers are losing money on their ACA policies. California is having a different experience. Blue Shield of CA reported $107 mil profit in 2014; Kaiser, $66 mil; Blue Cross, $9 mil in the Covered CA Exchange (from today's LA Times). The report quotes a Kaiser official as saying that "...in parts of the country where things were working smoothly, like California, insurers were making money." I would submit that the problems with the ACA are primarily due to the attempts by Republicans to sabotage it from day one.

True, the ACA has problems. The solution that comes immediately to mind is to elect a president committed to single payer, and provide him or her with a solid majority (not a blue dog majority) to get the job done right. The name Bernie pops up in that regard.

One more comment: Of the single payer systems in existence, the UK's is the most socialistic. How attached are the Brits to this system, that gets so much negative reporting in the right wing press? Well, consider that not even Maggie Thatcher, at the height of her power, dared mess with it. The seventeen or so people who don't like it get paraded in front of the cameras at Fox when the issue comes up, but the vast majority of Brits seem fine with it.
 
 
+14 # noodles 2015-12-09 17:25
We moved to England when Dumbya was elected and stayed for five years. The National Health Service is SPECTACULAR. Citizens do not worry about seeing their health decline, or their savings disappear as they age. We are so far behind the rest of the world it is shameful. Last I checked, we ranked 17th in healthcare. That places us behind many banana republics - a group we are about to join.
 
 
+4 # Allanfearn 2015-12-09 17:55
Nice that Noodles liked the NHS. But this year the Uk was, by the OECD, ranked 28th out of 30 allegedly wealthy nations in terms of health resources. Either we have a spectacularly well managed and efficient service which has mastered the art of making bricks without straw or we have one in which staff from top to bottom are, as Government policy, overworked and underpaid, and stretched to the limit. if the latter, could be that we are being softened up for full marketisation. If you want to build on the ACA, you are going to have to fight to keep it. That, in part, means paying through taxes as well as insurance. Believe me, it's worth it. if you don't believe me, believe Noodles.
 
 
+7 # reiverpacific 2015-12-09 18:37
Quoting Allanfearn:
Nice that Noodles liked the NHS. But this year the Uk was, by the OECD, ranked 28th out of 30 allegedly wealthy nations in terms of health resources. Either we have a spectacularly well managed and efficient service which has mastered the art of making bricks without straw or we have one in which staff from top to bottom are, as Government policy, overworked and underpaid, and stretched to the limit. if the latter, could be that we are being softened up for full marketisation. If you want to build on the ACA, you are going to have to fight to keep it. That, in part, means paying through taxes as well as insurance. Believe me, it's worth it. if you don't believe me, believe Noodles.

Get rid of Cameron first -who I fully believe is "Fattening you up for marketization- and you'll see a great improvement.
I was born, raised and kept healthy under the NHS and hope to return from this US death-trap before I get too much older, to Scotland (which has a better system that England), France or Spain.
 
 
+8 # Shades of gray matter 2015-12-09 18:38
When corporations claim they're "losing $$" under ACA, I wish they'd publish the cost of compensation packages for their top 100 execs. They got spoiled not having to COMPETE, the thing they say they love, but actually hate. Before ACA they divided up geographic markets AND had anti-trust exemptions, legal permission to conspire to fix prices. Give them a good dose of competition, including from Uncle Sam, competitor of last resort. Will work like castor oil.
 
 
-15 # lnason@umassd.edu 2015-12-09 19:00
This thread is full of fact-free assertions.

Krugman is correct and the percentage of uninsured people has declined from about 20% to about 7% of the eligible population. But this figure disguises what is happening in a crucial way: 71% of the new "insurance" is for Medicaid coverage, the taxpayer-funded program for the needy. And an additional 15% of the newly insured are consumers getting taxpayer subsidies. The remaining 23% of the newly insured are people who could afford healthcare insurance (they didn't qualify for a subsidy so they were all relatively well off) and hadn't wanted to spend their money on it but for forced to buy it since the ACA legally requires them to. So this number of newly insured is composed people getting insurance for free, people getting insurance at taxpayer subsidized costs, or people who had to be forced to buy it.

Given the cost increases, narrowing networks, increasing deductibles, reduction in competition, and other negative effects of the ACA, it seems clear that most Americans have been harmed by the law. One recent analysis indicates that the bottom economic quintile of Americans benefitted (they got Medicaid) and the top four economic quintiles were harmed. This does not seem like democracy to me.

Lee Nason
New Bedford, Massachusetts
 
 
0 # Robbee 2015-12-09 19:09
this is a new one on me - frankly i was unaware that zomblicans, except for candidates who are businessmen, don't count human numbers, like numbers of uninsureds - it's probably a failure of consumers to school them - buying anything?

- from an eminent economist i also expect more emphasis on economic analysis - not etymology comparing zombie lies with cockroach lies

what i propose, instead, that krugman prepare a list of the top 10 zombie lies - ranking them by economic analyses of their total net cost

for example, the costs of the conquests and occupations of iraq and afghanistan - all presidents since carter have evaluated the value of each life lost due to policy change - the healthcare costs of soldiers returning with disabilities can be evaluated in the same way - cost of arming and equipping troops halfway round the world - so on

next perhaps, the cost to our standard of living due to bush 2 cutting taxes on the rich for 12 years - hence the costs of borrowing money from china to run our government - offset the benefits of job-creators creating a few jobs here - then add the costs of job-creators shipping millions of jobs to china

next the costs of bush 2 running the fbi for 9 months, while the fbi missed 19 saudis training here to fly jets without taking off or landing - in terms of costs of the war on muslim terrorists, less than 3,000 worldwide when bill left office - now, "bring 'em on", numbering in hundreds of thousands, so forth
 
 
+5 # progressiveguy 2015-12-09 20:09
Once again the negative opinions expressed here by lee nason are bunk. Although, Obamacare needs improvement it needs protection and defending from right wing radicals that want to defunde it or eliminate it completely. The best thing about Obamacare to me is the provision that the insurance companies can't cancel you even if you require expensive treatments such as treatments for cancer. I am hopeful that a Democratic congress and president can improve
Obamacare but until then those that don't want to pay anything for health insurance can just pay the fine and stfu.
 
 
+3 # Treadwell 2015-12-10 01:20
PeacefulGarden, you've nailed it perfectly. What is the point of insurance if the premium is $4000.00 and the deductible is $2,500.00? AND, as has been pointed out, fasten your seat belt for yet more increases. What average or struggling family can afford this kind of "insurance"?

Also, I may be wrong, but I believe that they have made it more difficult to purchase a simple, affordable catastrophic care policy.

I recently canceled my dental insurance because I did the math. It was costing me way more than just directly paying the dentist. The whole system is a mess.
 
 
+3 # PABLO DIABLO 2015-12-10 12:42
Boy ROLAND, you just never give up do you. Maybe you should travel outside the United States some day and get away from the right wing/media propaganda machine. My father was a doctor. He always said,"We bury our mistakes". He passed away several years ago when he said hospitals kill 250,000 people a year (accidentally) and doctors kill 250,000 people per year (mistakes). I'm not sure the statistics in other countries, but I do know that their health care and medicines are substantially cheaper than ours.
 
 
+2 # reiverpacific 2015-12-10 13:06
Quoting PABLO DIABLO:
Boy ROLAND, you just never give up do you. Maybe you should travel outside the United States some day and get away from the right wing/media propaganda machine. My father was a doctor. He always said,"We bury our mistakes". He passed away several years ago when he said hospitals kill 250,000 people a year (accidentally) and doctors kill 250,000 people per year (mistakes). I'm not sure the statistics in other countries, but I do know that their health care and medicines are substantially cheaper than ours.

And better, with many more outcomes in healing and after care being paid for, as the doctors and nurses are free to do their jobs without insurance companies dictating what is covered and what isn't.
False rationalization is the last resort of the truly inculcated and deranged defenders who are blinkered beyond any hope of reasoning with.
You provided a good example from the very source and could also be one of the many doctors, surgeons and nurses in the increasingly strong group "Physicians for Universal Healthcare" but still, ol' Rollie would blatter on as usual.
You canna rattle an empty tin can!
Of course Lee Nason demonstrates her limited understanding of anything and everything outside her tiny bubble of existence once again.
My experience of what passes for a "system" here is simple; bankruptcy WITH pretty "decent" self-employment insurance, as good as we could afford.
'Nuff said.
 
 
+1 # newell 2015-12-11 08:21
ROLAND: you have some messianic martyr complex where you are right and everyone else is wrong. you place yourself in the lion's den. and this extreme isolation is not good for you. i fear for your safety and that of others.
 
 
0 # randall terry 2015-12-11 10:56
If Christ himself appeared in this forum and gave Roland a red thumb down, Roland would say "who is this person pretending to be my savior?" If God the Father added His red thumb, Roland would say, "well that just proves that Christ and God are Liberals."
 
 
0 # PeacefulGarden 2015-12-11 13:24
Roland is not a person. He is a robotic right wing blog computer application. He is a RRWBCA.
 
 
0 # John Escher 2015-12-12 06:32
I usually like Krugman, but don't think that he or anybody should mess with the meaning of good words. Kochroaches,lik e Scott Walker or that Gowdy fella, are politicians with the Koch brothers behind them.
 

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