Reich writes: "As Bill Clinton is resurrected by the Democrats, George W. Bush is being erased by the GOP - as if an entire eight years of American history hadn't happened."
Portrait, Robert Reich, (photo: Perian Flaherty)
Erasing W
11 August 12
s Bill Clinton is resurrected by the Democrats, George W. Bush is being erased by the GOP - as if an entire eight years of American history hadn't happened.
While Bill Clinton stumps for Obama, Romney has gone out of his way not to mention the name of the president who came after Clinton and before Obama.
Clinton will have a starring role at the Democratic National Convention. George W. Bush won't even be at the Republican one - the first time a national party has not given the stage at its convention to its most recent occupant of the Oval Office who successfully ran for reelection.
The GOP is counting on America's notoriously short-term memory to blot out the last time the nation put a Republican into the Oval Office, on the reasonable assumption that such a memory might cause voters to avoid making the same mistake twice. As whoever-it-was once said, "fool me once ..." (and then mangled the rest).
Republicans want to obliterate any trace of the administration that told America there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and led us into a devastating war; turned a $5 trillion projected budget surplus into a $6 trillion deficit; gave the largest tax cut in a generation to the richest Americans in history; handed out a mountain of corporate welfare to the oil and gas industry, pharmaceutical companies, and military contractors like Halliburton (uniquely benefiting the vice president); whose officials turned a blind eye to Wall Street shenanigans that led to the worst financial calamity since the Great Crash of 1929 and then persuaded Congress to bail out the Street with the largest taxpayer-funded giveaway of all time.
Besides, the resemblances between George W. Bush and Mitt Romney are too close for comfort. Both were born into wealth, sons of prominent politicians who themselves ran for president; both are closely tied to the nation's corporate and financial elites, and eager to do their bidding; both are socially awkward and, as candidates, tightly scripted for fear of saying something they shouldn't; and both presented themselves to the nation devoid of any consistent policies or principles that might give some clue as to what they actually believe.
They are both, in other words, unusually shallow, uncurious, two-dimensional men who ran or are running for the presidency for no clear reason other than to surpass their fathers or achieve the aims and ambitions of their wealthy patrons.
Small wonder the Republican Party wants us to forget our last Republican president and his administration. By contrast, the Democrats have every reason for America to recall and celebrate the Clinton years.
Robert B. Reich, Chancellor's Professor of Public Policy at the University of California at Berkeley, was Secretary of Labor in the Clinton administration. Time Magazine named him one of the ten most effective cabinet secretaries of the last century. He has written thirteen books, including the best sellers "Aftershock" and "The Work of Nations." His latest is an e-book, "Beyond Outrage." He is also a founding editor of the American Prospect magazine and chairman of Common Cause.
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Actually, the "resemblances" between Obama and Bush are "too close for comfort"; i.e. budget crunching expansion of wars in AfPak, Libya (where things are worse rather than better) and Syria (with MI6 and CIA fingerprints all over it).
Then we have extension of Bush tax cuts, bailouts and corporate cronyism combined with a domestic policy consisting of more egregious assault on civil liberties in the conduct of the ephemeral GWOT.
Led by an Attorney general who would be right comfortable with the notorious John Yoo.
C'mon Bob, you are an alleged "insider", you well know that both candidates are Goldman Sachs, CIA-MIC approved.
The charade will continue and liberal/progres sives will play their chosen part
The GOP should save their efforts and forget this election. They could devote their resources to finding a candidate that might defeat Hilary Clinton in 2016.
As you say they are all nothing more than politicians under the control of the money interests and nothing matters except one test, "Will this help me get (re)elected?" If there was a one-term then go home rule for all elected offices, a lot of that problem would go away.
I am pretty skeptical that Obama will live up to his words any more in a second term than in the first term, but I'd rather see Obama in office than Mitt Romney and especially Paul Ryan.
I agree, "Change we can believe in?" What change? As I said, little, if anything has changed from Bush. Will it? I doubt it. Rethugnicans or Democraps, they are still wings of the same carrion-eating scavenger,
That is the most critical mission, to start to turn the long building tidal wave of ALEC legislator, judges, school board members, and dog catchers, that they want to carry out the continued sabotage and starving of the honest agents in what is left of our understaffed and overworked civil structure that actually did things useful for us. They want the competent cops off the beat so they can do their dirty work.
They will not even allow what they supported to be done if their is any possible way for Obama to get credit for even stepping out of the way. They have staked him to the ground and given the bus driver the high tech night vision goggles to find him and run over him.
It simply can NOT be said any clearer than you just did.
It is so dangerous what the right wing wants to do: Privatize pretty much everything:
Schools, prisons, police, hospitals, fire fighters, medicare, social security, and heaven knows how much more.
It pretty much boils down to: YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN BUDDY. Cant swim? sink! just get the hell out of my way.
It blows my mind that the low income white voters can not see that.
Here is another news bulletin...Fox News lies when its convenient for them to lie. Look up their facts in a non biased place of history...pleas e I implore you. Dont just vote in another George W. Bush because you think Obama is bad. Romney will destroy any economy we have, and some how magically it will be Obamas fault...stop the madness.
This government will not fix what ails the country no matter who is in the White House - that is the job of the peoeple, and apparently from what I read in the news the country is evenly split for some odd reason. I don't see how that can be, except that a lot of people believe Republicans lies.
THANK YOU.... This needs to be said LOUDLY and OFTEN. there are WAY too many, who will only harp on Obama, totally discounting what he was stuck with upon entering the Oval Office. And that makes the weak of heart falter and think:
Maybe Romney would be better...... What a horrible thought...... An awful lot of our country men and women have the memory of an ant. come to think of it that may be offending ants, who are very good at working together for the benefit of their colony.
BUSH DESTROYED THE ECONOMY AND THE COUNTRY.
NEVER forget that
Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, student loans, the middle class & poor, unions, decent jobs: all will be devastated & the militarization of our police and government completed.
Please get out and vote to get Republicans out of the government they say they hate.
Not the economy, environment, security, etc. just make sure that President Obama fails and country be damned.
How can Obama have mishandled the economy, when the Republicans blocked over 90% of everything and anything he proposed to do to help the economy? Put the blame where it belongs, with the Party of NO!!!
Do you really think Mitt is the answer...if you do, God help us all!
NO Bush mishandled the economy and Obama got stuck with it. Since Obama has been president the GOP has made every effort to block everything he does no matter what it is. Bush made the mess! Please dont drink the Fox news koolaid, they are magnifying everything Obama does, and blaming him for Bush's blunders. They lie about things that are convenient for them to lie about, and unfortunately no one calls them on it, because sane people dont watch Fox.
That is what frustrates me immensely, Most of the time interviewers let republicans get away with outright lies. I DO NOT understand why they do not call them on it. It actually makes them complicit in the lies. Shame on them,
for it is not only Fox. CNN is also guilty.
Read John Dean's book, "Conservatives without Conscience."
You might want to keep in mind Obama has been dealing with a Republican opposition whose only goal, loudly stated, is to make him fail, even if it is at the expense of the Nation. The president is not a dictator. In fact, only Congress can enact laws and approve expenditures.
Just a reminder.
It's all about Congress in 2012!
The foundation has already been laid for a "unitary executive" (dictator) in the U.S. The blame game is a distraction. Obama has no desire to make a fundamental policy shift, and the fact that so many of you give him a pass because the Republicans won't "allow" him to do anything is just classic.
While I have respect for Indian people and disgust for the way they were treated by white settlers. and even our sainted first President, George Washington, who was helped by some Indians tribes,
turned around and order them killed..... Even great men do disgusting things.
However, you are WRONG in saying that Obama increased the Afghan war on HIS OWN. The GENERALS wanted more troops, and so did the republican HAWKS. You may not...but I sure remember how the generals put the thumbscrews on Obama by making public how many more troops they wanted and it was more than the 30.000 Obama agreed to.
As he was deliberating. They, and the Hawks kept pressing him. Personally I wish he had told them all to go to hell. Biden didn't want to send more troops either. But I did see the pressure he was under.
You, like MILLIONS of other Americans are disappointed, that Obama were not able to turn around the economy in THREE AND A HALF YEARS
An economy, that Bush systematically DESTROYED for 8 years. First, Obama is not a magician, he is only president, aaaaand, he has had nothing but obstruction from the NOT loyal opposition. Open your eyes, and SEE the reality
You, like MILLIONS of other Americans are disappointed, that Obama were not able to turn around the economy in THREE AND A HALF YEARS
An economy, that Bush systematically DESTROYED for 8 years. First, Obama is not a magician, he is only president, aaaaand, he has had nothing butb obstruction..."
Oh please, Obama has been nothing but a puppet for the Big Wall Street firms. And for the Big Insurers as well. We needed a leader and we got a snivelling politician. Eighty percent of every Presidency is about who gets appointed. So who did Obama appoint? The same people Bush wold have appointed if he had a third term.
Well, maybe not EVERY reason. Clinton pushed NAFTA which helped create new billionaires in Mexico and the US while creating millions of economic refugees who had to leave their villages and farms in Mexico when subsidized US megacorporation corn hit the Mexican market and subsistence farmers and small business people in Mexico were bankrupted. Now with such trade policies having exported jobs from the US, and millions of Mexicans having come here, Clinton robbed the Democratic Party of the ability to claim to be champion of jobs for US workers and ethnic profiling of Latinos is expanding state by state.
Seriously damaging the social safety net is another Clinton “accomplishment.”
Thanks a bunch, Clinton. We all saw how appreciative the Republicans are of Clinton’s Republican style economics and the adoption of such attitudes by many so-called Democratic Congressional Dems.
They may try to re-write history, it is our job to prevent them from doing so.
I try to bring my right wing friends back to reality every chance I get too.
I THINK it would be difficult to cure a diseased person.....unle ss you are Jesus, who raised Lazarus from the dead??? I wasn't born here, but......Just a little humor, in deo
Have you noticed that the republicans NEVER answer a question....the y immediately enter into a tirade about aaaaalll the terrible things Obama is doing. They all have the same "talking points". They are like "wind up" dolls. .
Case in point is Peter Wallison's 60+ page dissent from the Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission report http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2011/07/wallison.html
Though I'd rather take Lakoff's Little Blue Book advice and not respond to their commandeering the terms to be used, I'd encourage anyone to go through the dissent and see if they notice, as I did, that he time shifts events a bit to make it seem as if some things occurred just before, or just after, the Bush administration. To me, the slide started under Clinton (and Libermann types falling for idiotic financial reform and "modernization" ) and got far worse by the mid Bush years. Wallison seems to have tried to entirely cloak those years with a shield of invulnerability .
I won't fall into the trap of blaming only one side or the other, but will scream from the mountain tops that more people on one side have seen that the experiment failed again, even those on the very top of Wall Street that did the most to get Glass-Steagall killed. CitiGroup's Sandy Weill was just the biggest surprise (since he was the major force getting it killed), but is far from alone.
If they don't believe guys like Weill, just who would they believe?
Fool me for 30 or 40 years, shame on me.
Until there is a clear difference between the two parties on these important issues the Ds will be merely trying to out do the Rs at their own game and lose their base in the process.Clinton was an R in sheep's clothing the same as O and all of us out here are not so stupid as to believe a D after a name makes any difference at all.
China has never been communist, either. The terms "Communist, Socialist, and even Republic have been stolen by totalitarian dictators and governments to attempt to conceal what they are really doing.
When Franklin was leaving the building after the Constitution was approved, he was asked what king of government we now had. His reply was, "A republic, if you can keep it."
Please note that "Democracy" doesn't appear anywhere, either.
Also, isn't China officially the "People's Democratic Republic of China?" For that matter what about North Korea? Neither are democratic, a republic, nor communist. Both are totalitarian governments where the people have ho say in how things are run at all. I wonder if the same is not now true of the USA?
We DO have a representative DEMOCRACY by any definition of the phrase whether it fits your narrative or not.
Do we vote? Do we have elections? If so, then WE ARE a democracy. PERIOD.
We are not any more republican than we are democratic. There are many definitions of "republic". We only partially fit any of them.
Being a stickler about details that are extraneous to the debate does do your end of the argument any good. Like too many posters on here, you're bound by your own need for rhetoric.
Susan certainly makes a point, but the right wing shoots down anybody who talks about the issues she mentioned. They totally refuse to see that the climate is going haywire. They WILL NOT see that humans have a lot to do with it, so until something better comes along, I will vote democrat, for voting for a third party candidate is synonymous with voting for the right wing.
I very much want to see a strong third party...(I come from a country with several parties).....BU T it takes some years to develop third or fourth parties.
I AGREE! WE NEED TO BRING BACK MORE GOVERNMENT REGULATION.
Frankly, America is not following the teachings of Jesus as much as they are the dead Emperor Constantine. We are trying to keep the 1% happy at all costs.
question:
What does it say about the American
people that they voted for W the SECOND
time?
SOME did vote for him...BUT they did STEAL that election. Maybe especially in Ohio.
Remember the manufacturer of Diebold telling Bush: "We will deliver Ohio to you" AND HE DID
Helped by very few machines in the poor areas. resulting in terribly long lines and waiting in bad weather.....PLU S a dishonest counting.
I still do not understand that Kerry did not protest.
They obviously plan to repeat 2004, for the republican areas will have several early voting days....THE DEMOCRATIC AREAS WILL NOT? Time to sue.
It says that Kerry suddenly started talking about raising taxes and BINGO, people went over to Dubbya in droves.
Instead, we had a few years of the greatest peacetime expansion of our economy in history. Which ultimately ended up as a "budget surplus" (remember the arguments from the Republicans on how we should just 'give it all back') which was handed off to Bush 43 when he assumed office.
President Obama has had 3-1/2 years to try to undo 8 years of Bush's financial malfeasance. He deserves a second term to see if he can obtain the results that Clinton did.
You're so right, eldoryder. We're still suffering from what Bush did to our economy, and the Regressives talk as if they expected his avalanche to be turned around overnite. And all the while Dick Cheney was saying, "Deficits don't matter". What does it take to stop an avalanche? You don't! You get a crew of hardworking people, all with shovels, start clearing pathways in the snow, start digging for survivors and getting them to shelter. But with the lack of cooperation by the GOP, it's as if they went to the top of the mountain and started shoveling more snow down the hill, clogging cleared pathways, and burying more people - to hell with survivors. And that's not all, they put shovels in the hands of the survivors while the guy whose reckless skiing started the avalanche, is now sitting in the coffee shop enjoying the view with his buddies - and wondering "Why is everybody pickin' on me?".
A vote for Romney/Ryan is a vote for a return to Bush/Cheney policies and further thoughtless destruction of the American Way of Life by people who claim to be more RELIGIOUS and more PATRIOTIC than the rest of us.
I can't for the life of me understand that people DO NOT GET THAT. Your metaphor is so spot on. It is so frustrating and very difficult to have republican friends.
There are so MANY things the republicans are doing right now a LOT of harmful things against women, ....and other living beings... Do you have a sister? Ask your mom if she wants her daughter's rights to be denied and trampled on. Or simply women's rights!
And the repellant Rovian technique of never5 allowing your opponent to speak, by TALKING OVER THEM LOUDLY AND INCESSSANTLY ... needs to be pointed to over and over again. Politeness to Repugnicans seems to be a waste of time ...
I wish more people would understand the IMPORTANCE of what you wrote! If you want a well functioning community You HAVE to pay for it. it doesn't "just happen"
Rugged individualism was all right when our country was young, but when you are a country
with over 300 MILLION PEOPLE, you HAVE to have order and rules, we need to work TOGETHER as a successful family does.
I think our country began to fall apart, when big companies decided that the bottom line IS EVERYTHING. they have ZERO loyalty to the country that gave them a start. And they will do anything and everything to avoid paying taxes.
They shovel in money and leave the taxes to all the "worker bees" and we simply CAN NOT earn enough, to make up for what the rich and the big companies could do.
As you said THAT IS DAMN UNPATRIOTIC.
The right wingers TALK OVER their opponent, because they want to DROWN THEM OUT. THEIR voice should be the only only heard. Too often it works.
"If you liked George W. Bush, you'll love Mitt Romney."
SUPERB. Start printing them.
If we want politicians to be committed to being accountable for their decisions, perhaps it would help if the electorate were also committed to holding themselves accountable for their decisions.
If we want politicians to be able to think about long-term consequences of their decisions, perhaps we the people also need to start thinking about the long-term consequences of our decisions, including the decisions we make about who we elect.
Right now, the conflict between our political parties seems to be mirroring the internal conflict most people have within themselves about holding themselves accountable for their decisions,as well as the conflict many people have about telling the shole truth, as compared to just the part of the truth that makes us look good, or, at least, doesn't make us look bad.
Many people love the lie that saves their pride, but never the unflattering truth. Until people can handle hearing the "unflattering truths" of life, I'm not sure if we can handle or support politicians who will tell us unflattering truths. For a fully honest politician to be elected, wouldn't the majority of the electorate also have to be committed to being fully honest as well.
I was there, got my 3 minutes, and learned a lot from the engineers, teachers, and other professionals there.
Didn't get to NY but am impressed by what Cathy O'Neil saw and does now (part of Occupy SEC) with advice on how she and her fellow risk analysts could game a system that had too few enforcers of even the lax rules, and few with the inner workings knowledge she could share to help keep carelessly self-interested , or even deliberately unethical people from getting away with it.
Read the last half of "It's Even Worse Than It Looks" to see some suggestions like a shadow legislature made up of our favorite old legislators and civil service experts that can comment on the tricks used to stop progress (and hopefully tell us how they go the good things done in the old days. I also like the Australian requirement to vote/fine if you don't, that made sure people didn't stay too apathetic to bother to vote. They also show how rule changes aren't what they seem. Dropping cloture from 2/3 (actually 66% of those present to make a quorum) to 60% (but of the entire 100 senators) actually made it almost impossible to stop a determined, and now more powerful, minority.
THAT is the crux of the matter. Very few voters wants to face the facts. As the T bags holding up signs: KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF MY MEDICARE"? That seems to me the hight of stupidity and an uninformed person.
But too many others will not listen to a candidate, who will tell them that "righting the ship of state" will be difficult, take time and require sacrifice of us all.
An honest statesman like that, sadly doesn't have a chance. It seems, that people WANT to be lied to.
SO AS YOU POINT OUT, THEY SHOULD LOOK IN THE MIRROR. WHEN THEY DISTRIBUTE BLAME.
As you say the naked truth doesn't stand a chance against a beautifully dressed lie.
w has said more than once that he doesn't want to be in the public eye any more. for whatever reason, he doesn't want to be at the big pachy party either.
i agree his sins were great, he was the greatest greedster/gangs ter president of my lifetime...but i think he just wants to be left alone.
not that, by his presence, he wouldn't heap more negative bull onto the head of the great bullmitter...
DON'T VOTE REPUBLICAN AT ANY LEVEL
DO VOTE AS IF OUR LIVELIHOOD DEPENDS ON IT, AS IT DOES DEPEND ON OUR VOTE.
I wish the same. And I think Judge Sandra Day O Connor bitterly regrets voting with the 4 republicans on the Court. I have heard, she has said as much.
Unfortunately she retired to be with her husband, who had Alzheimers, sadly it was in vain, because he had to be put in a medical facility shortly after. Imagine if we had not had Alito??
Alas, THAT is water under the bridge, but we DO NEED to realize, that if Romney wins, we are in for more reactionary judges, since Robert Bork will be Romney's adviser in regard to Supreme Court selections!!!!
So as you say: DO NOT VOTE REPUBLICAN. We need to take "the house" back and keep the senate, in order to move forward.
win' at any cost---ready to tear our democracy apart so they can eliminate a half-black president Obama.
Yes and they will make millions more poor, and too many homeless. Do they care??? NO
But after about a year and a half of the current administration I felt like a dupe. The promise of enlightened leadership was not being delivered on.
We were still prosecuting undeclared wars of aggression overseas. We were still persecuting peaceful Americans with the War on Drugs and it was responsible for the deaths of thousands in Mexico. GMO foods were still flooding the food supply with nary a care. As the evidence piled up.. I fell free again of the two-party flypaper that I had assiduously avoided in the past.
I realized that there were no substantive differences between the two parties when it came to honoring our founding principles and defending the rights of individuals. The Democrats want control of people's lives through massively invasive social programs and the Republicans want to use government to help leverage corporate exploitation at home and abroad.
There ARE bad Dems, but there is quite a bit of substantive difference between the Dem,s and Repugs.
Read "The Betrayal fo the American Dream,, by Barlett et al .... for just one take on this.
In doing all of this, the Democrats handed W defenders the perfect argument: "We didn't harm the economy, we just played the cards we were dealt by the previous Democratic administration. THEY made everything that happened possible, and inevitable."
Sorry, fellow Democrats, but there is no counterargument to this. Clinton reportedly screwed everything with legs, and that includes us.
Have you ever heard the republicans admit that their much greater part in this was a mistake??? No? And you never will. It did exactly what they had in mind.
Trying thinking instead of taking the easy way out.
There are many who disappointed us back then, including many Democratic Senators, the ones that stick to defending the failed experiment (after it didn't work any better than Harding/Coolidg e/Hoover) can't be as easily excused as those earlier experimenters.
Perhaps Wall Street and Big Corps are truly in control now, and politics is just a playground they condone to distract us.
No, the people who say the two parties are identical, are the true progressives who see the truth. You should read more Noam Chomsky or Chris Hedges. Or just read history. Just actual history, that's all.
In a word NO
Democrats let Republicans raise Reagan to heights he never deserved.Democr ats hopefully have learned their lesson.
Democrats need to define and define Ryan as quickly and as sharply and accurately as they defined Romney.
They also need to simultaneously tie the ideas of the Romney and Ryan ticket to the policies of GW Bush, using the double down, Bush on steroids language .
"Republicans want to obliterate any trace of the administration that told America there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and led us into a devastating war; turned a $5 trillion projected budget surplus into a $6 trillion deficit; gave the largest tax cut in a generation to the richest Americans in history; handed out a mountain of corporate welfare to the oil and gas industry, pharmaceutical companies, and military contractors like Halliburton (uniquely benefiting the vice president); whose officials turned a blind eye to Wall Street shenanigans that led to the worst financial calamity since the Great Crash of 1929 and then persuaded Congress to bail out the Street with the largest taxpayer-funded giveaway of all time."
"If you liked GW Bush, you'll love Romney".
As the originator of these words said, the Obama campaign, DCCC, Moveon.org or the Obama SuperPac should make this an available bumper sticker ASAP.
I know I would buy one.
Vulture/Voucher 2012 "You people are on your own."
Do you realize how silly your post is?
It cracks me up to read right-wingers complain about Clinton signing the death of Glass-Steagall. They of course NAGGED HIM to do it at the time, and fully supported the repug Congressmen who wrote it.
They'll do anything to insult a Democrat, even if it means insulting him for doing something conservative that they agreed with at the time. Suddenly, out of nowhere, repugs want MORE GOVERNMENT REGULATION. Where were all these proponents of "more government" when Glass-Steagal was repealed? Oh that's right: CELEBRATING!
KEEP UP THE GREAT COMMENTS!
Bush and his 8 years of hell ruined this country...anyth ing Bill Clinton did Bush put it on steroids.
I would think anybody who's said anything negative about Clinton or Obama, are TRUE progressives who are voting third party instead of casting another corporate vote. Of course, there could also be some planted right wingers parroting what we are saying, but there's no way to know.
Oh, you noticed, did you? Have you also noticed that water is wet and granite is solid?
I'm actually a bit afraid the attention to the top of the Richie Rich (R/R) ticket might be a welcome distraction to the real powers behind ALEC so that voters, in sick idea of creating balance, vote in even more of the ALEC boss's stooges. Many of the corporate ALEC sponsors seem to not have entirely grasped what the real bosses were up to. The backlash from the public seems to have gotten their attention, and withdrawal of support. We just need the bulk of voters to see what the casual corporate sponsors realized, and likewise withdraw their support, and even oppose any who fell under the ALEC spell.
Th George W. Bush Institute connected show "Ideas In Action" is carried by pbs stations in my area. How balanced it is can be argued about but I appreciate them at least providing a more balanced forum than most MSM outlets. I usually find the guests repeating old theories I think have been proven not to work, but they do provide an occasional idea I do agree with. Their Devil's Advocates present a side I do want to hear. Whether I agree with it or not is less important than finding out what the real meat of the arguments should be.
One glaring omission is the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act, the one Joe Lieberman (and Dodd) helped over ride a Clinton veto on. It left us with no real protection from the lower level but still dangerous hype of lousy or deliberately criminal/unethi cal securities traders felt freer to offer. I (stupidly, as it turned out) voted more against Joe Lieberman than for GW Bush, and have regretted it ever since.
The site referenced does add some meat to the debates, though, even if not as complete as I'd like.
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