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Pierce writes: "15 percent of registered Republicans in Ohio think Willard Romney deserves more credit for killing Osama bin Laden than does the president. Another 47 percent aren't really sure who does. In North Carolina, 29 percent of them give the credit to Romney while a whopping 56 percent of them find it too difficult to answer the question of whether the credit should go to the guy who actually gave the order, or to the guy who forgot to mention the troops in his acceptance speech not long ago."

New polls show some people think Mitt Romney deserves more credit than President Obama for the death of Osama bin Laden. (photo: Getty Images)
New polls show some people think Mitt Romney deserves more credit than President Obama for the death of Osama bin Laden. (photo: Getty Images)


Romney Got Osama bin Laden?

By Charles Pierce, Esquire Magazine

11 September 12

 

ccording to the good folks at Public Policy Polling - and why they asked this question, I never will know - 15 percent of registered Republicans in Ohio think Willard Romney deserves more credit for killing Osama bin Laden than does the president. Another 47 percent aren't really sure who does. In North Carolina, 29 percent of them give the credit to Romney while a whopping 56 percent of them find it too difficult to answer the question of whether the credit should go to the guy who actually gave the order, or to the guy who forgot to mention the troops in his acceptance speech not long ago.

Happy 9/11, America!

If we needed any more evidence that the atrocities perpetrated by Osama bin Laden 11 years ago have been transformed into simply another mudball in our national political mudfight, that poll pretty much seals the deal for you. It's more than ignorance. It's more than being misinformed. (I don't know of a single commentator, not even the wingiest of wingnut public-access trolls, who's credited Romney with being involved in the raid into Pakistan.) This is simple reflexive tribalism - Democrat bad, Republican, good. Also, too.

The fact is that we never have found a way to integrate the mass murder of nearly 3,000 Americans into our politics in a way that satisfies all of us and does honor to the victims of that day. And the responsibility for that does lie with a Republican - namely, George W. Bush, whose negligence, as Kurt Eichenwald in The New York Times reminds us today, prior to the attack remains inexcusable, and who later used the horror of those events, and the ensuing spasm of national mourning and unity, to embark on a whole raft of policies, including an illegal war in Iraq. The Democratic leadership in the Congress, by and large, went along with these policies until everything went sour in Baghdad, and then they spent an election-cycle-and-a-half trying to climb out of the mess in which they were utterly complicit. (Both John Kerry and Joe Biden gave rousing assaults on Romney's foreign-policy views last week in Charlotte. Both of them also voted for the most singularly stupid foreign-policy adventure of the past 60 years. Just sayin'.) Now, Democrats defend a president who, while he has extricated American combat troops from Iraq, also has continued - and, in many cases, amplified and legitimized - many of the national-security policies put in place by his bungling predecessor, and a great number of Democrats use the killing of bin Laden to justify that support in the same reflexive way that Republicans used the 9/11 attacks as justification for the Patriot Act and shock-and-awe.

(Let us be clear. I find liberal handwringing about the killing of bin Laden embarrassing. The man was responsible for at least three acts of war against the United States that we know of, one of which killed thousands of people at the time and is still killing people with diseases they contracted while sifting through the rubble of his greatest triumph. He also was responsible for acts of war against Kenya and against Tanzania, when he arranged the 1998 bombings of the U.S. embassies on their soil. He was not an agent of liberation. He was not fighting to free his people, or to repel an occupying power, no matter what he thought of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia. He was not Ho Chi Minh or Michael Collins. He was a quasi-cultish theocratic sociopath with enough money to arrange mass murder - a multi-millionnaire Charlie Manson. He committed acts of war and he was killed in an act of war. Two tie, all tie. Enough, already. The drone strikes, alas, are another matter entirely.)

If we are to have a consensus, if we are to keep September 11 from being an annual exercise in marinating ourselves in distant grief and tinhorn jingoism, we have to act in our politics as though we learned something from it more profound than "the oceans couldn't protect us." (This is no great insight. The Aztecs figured that one out as soon as Cortez was done with them.) We should become better informed than we are. We should become more wary and more skeptical of government policies that are sold as pigs-in-a-poke for our own protection. We should become more wary of what happens when you put a democracy on automatic pilot. To make the annual observance of these crimes mean more than endless tick-tock specials on the History Channel, we should commit ourselves to more active and more informed citizenship. We should insist on transparency. We should make sure our presidents do their homework. We should commit to knowing what we're talking about.



Charlie has been a working journalist since 1976. He is the author of four books, most recently "Idiot America." He lives near Boston with his wife but no longer his three children.

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+126 # angelfish 2012-09-11 16:20
Most ReTHUGlicans had their heads up their Anal Cavities when Bin Ladin was taken down. HOW in God's good name could ANY of them, least of all, Mitt Romney, get any credit for his capture and demise? The "shrub" needs to get FAR more Credit for ALLOWING the Tragedy of the 9/11 Massacre (for that is what it was) but he also, has been given some credit for achieving what was one of the best things to come out of President Obama's Presidency so far! In reality, if you listened to anything Bush said during the later years of his appointment to the Presidency, when questioned as to Bin Ladin's whereabouts, he said that he really "didn't CARE" where he was. That just about sums up the Bush II Presidency, doesn't it? He "REALLY DIDN'T CARE".
 
 
+57 # Barbara K 2012-09-12 05:52
angelfish: You are so correct. What a bunch of lunatics there are in the amongst R/Tbaggers; the brainless twits. Romney had absolutely nothing with governing, and knows absolutely nothing about BinLaden. The Rs gave up because they had no ideas. But, hey, maybe we should let Al Qaeda think so, let Romney be in their crosshairs. He's such a coward that he would head for undercover and maybe we wouldn't have to hear from his lying mouth for a while. lol.
 
 
+27 # HowardMH 2012-09-12 10:17
Be afraid America be very afraid. This article proves again that North Carolina is too small to be a country and too big to be an Insane Asylum and it looks like Ohio is not far behind. I wonder what the percentages would be in MS? With several Major hurricanes devastating the Gulf Coast in the last 30 years you would think they would upgrade their building codes. On a scale of 0 to 100 they are still at 4%. As Forest said, "Stupid Is as Stupid Does" and we got a whole lot of stupid out there just letting this crap happen.
 
 
+89 # TrueAmericanPatriot 2012-09-11 17:32
You're right Angelfish. "W" made the statement just WEEKS before the "Operation Iraqi Liberation (OIL)" Initiative, "Bin Laden's just not that important anymore." Clinton was ready to take him out in 1998, but the repugs were too busy inquiring the president about the graphic details (I am not kidding) of his Monica Lewinsky encounter. The so-called "Party of Family Values" were disgraceful shameless asking those kinds of questions on daytime television, or television PERIOD!!! Let's face it...repugs are actually ANGRY that we took out Bin Laden because their "BOOGIE-MAN IS DEAD! They experienced the same "withdrawal syndrome" when the wall came down in Germany in 1990. As for these stupid rethugs that think Romney deserves credit for taking out Bin Laden, 100% OF THEM LACK A BRAIN OR STEM TO HOUSE ONE!!!! I always knew DRUGS would make you crazy; hatred and racial prejudice obviously makes you TOTALLY INSANE. They belong in padded cells somewhere. And THESE TYPE OF PEOPLE ARE ALLOWED TO VOTE? Get out the vote, and get out TO VOTE!!!! OBAMA-BIDEN 2012!!!!! The debates cannot come soon enough for me!!!
 
 
+8 # KittatinyHawk 2012-09-12 09:17
Rethugs were too busy wanting details because they do not get too much lady enjoyment. So many hating women, others definitely still in the closet, I do not wonder these children probably make Hugh rich ....

It is truly amazing how the Bain man or Olympic(really Chinese diplomat) could have had a clue, he hasn't got a clue on daily life no less a Seal Operation

It scares me that again someone with some bought document will be in Office...and allow Military to Rule. Boy reminds me of History So many Puppets believing themsleves to be in charge, where in fact, Military and Corporations(Sh ysters) were. We do not read or comprehend this. Time the Brass is taken down quite a few notches. Perhaps a couple tours of duty on the front lines would perk their memories up of what it means to Serve The USA. I do not give them credit for serving to begin with, most were pencil pushers that kissed their way off front lines.

Pretty soon Romney will be getting his gay apparel out to go to dinners. I wonder what the Mormon Dress of Adornment will look like. Ryan will be some hand me down glitter boy stuff.
 
 
0 # jerryball 2012-09-14 14:16
Clinton CIA had located Bin Laden and had him in their missile sights back in the late 1990s, but then intel noticed that there was a Saudi Royal helicopter nearby, indicating that he was meeting with a Saudi Prince or Royal. The shoot was called off. Almost, but for the Saudi Royal Family he went free to keep up his destruction.
 
 
+91 # freeportguy 2012-09-11 17:54
When asked who between Obama and Romney did something, ANYTHING,, Republicans will ALWAYS put the good on Romney and the bad on Obama.
 
 
+55 # X Dane 2012-09-11 23:49
Freeportguy.
We know that the republicans are off their rockers, but now they have completely lost it. The last marbles just fell. What the heck is wrong with these people. Where do they live??? the dark side of the moon, Outer Mongolia.
Did they not hear all the commotion when PRESIDENT OBAMA announced the death of Osama Bin Laden?? Romney was NOWHERE IN SIGHT.
 
 
+40 # mim 2012-09-12 06:32
The people of Outer Mongolia probably know better.


And now the Republicans are trying to disenfranchise American citizens who know better.
 
 
+14 # KittatinyHawk 2012-09-12 09:21
People of outer Mongolia know how to work together. They can smell a seal a mile off I would have said snake but I am not sure they have that many.
Con men are always boasting other Persons heroics, as they have none themselves.
People in America are too stupid to know what went on, I guess the Education System really needs a complete clean up. These people without a clue are breeding....I just pray not home schooling
 
 
0 # ptalady 2012-09-14 15:20
there are seals in outer mongolia?
 
 
+29 # Independentgal 2012-09-12 07:33
The right wingers hear only what they want to hear. And you are correct about the last marbles. I keep saying that nothing the Republicans say or do will surprise me anymore. But I was wrong. How could they possibly think Romney had anything to do with Osama Bin Laden's death??? Do you think those folks were just joking? Nah, they're just more lacking in brains and information than I thought was possible.
 
 
+18 # lexy677 2012-09-12 10:13
They live in a fantasy land called "hate" where stupidity abounds.
 
 
-24 # silenus 2012-09-12 05:05
Quoting freeportguy:
When asked who between Obama and Romney did something, ANYTHING,, Republicans will ALWAYS put the good on Romney and the bad on Obama.


Like dogs fighting over scraps.
 
 
+26 # rockieball 2012-09-12 07:44
Agree with you here. Somehow I do not find it strange considering the Republican mentality. I have a t-shirt that say's "I Would Explain It To You, But your Brain Would Explode." Another that says "I'm Not Fluent in IDIOT Could You Please Speak More Slowly?" I feel they fit the Republican mentality rather well.
 
 
+10 # in deo veritas 2012-09-12 09:13
The Repukes have NO mentality-zombi es who would support anyone running on their ticket-even Rev. Jim Jones were he still around.
 
 
+77 # karlarove 2012-09-11 17:57
If we needed any more evidence that misinformation, propaganda and militant ignorance work, this article demonstrates it. Were these people asked if they believe the world was created in 7 days?
 
 
+62 # pwehrle 2012-09-11 22:07
Probably...we become stupider by the minute. Fox Noise has accomplished its mision.
 
 
+28 # Independentgal 2012-09-12 07:35
Let's not forget Rush and his like-minded radio talk haters.
 
 
+10 # in deo veritas 2012-09-12 09:14
Actually the best way to rid ourselves of Rush and his filthy kind would be if everyone did forget about them. Then the nutwork would drop them.
 
 
+21 # bmiluski 2012-09-12 08:55
This is why the religious right is republican. It consists of people who do not want to think. Would rather someone else told them what to do and think and therefore not have any responsibilitie s. If things go wrong...Oh well, God wanted it that way.
 
 
+10 # in deo veritas 2012-09-12 09:15
Fools like them will be the undoing of Christianity if they are not dealt with.
 
 
+9 # KittatinyHawk 2012-09-12 09:23
Religious...the re is nothing religious about the mongers
 
 
0 # dovelane1 2012-09-14 03:31
I believe that one of the main draws of religion is that it gives people someone to blame for everything. If it was good, it was God; if it was bad, it was the devil. Forget the possibility that any decision they made had anything to do with the consquences that happened to them.

Ironically, as soon as someone gets into the "blame" mode, what they are doing is seeing themselves as the "victim," and what they look for is the persecuter, and the rescuer. The devil being the persecuter, and God the rescuer.

And if anyone challenges their lack of thinking, the victim automatically sees the challenger as the persecuter, and everyone who believes the same as they do becomes the rescuer.

As I understand it, this is the basis for all addictive and dysfunctional interactions with other people.

I see Romney acting like a victim, blaming the progressives for being the persecuters, and asking the blindly obedient to rescue him from that "evil government."

Those who've learned to blindly believe their "leaders," stroke their egos thinking they are saving "poor" Romney from the democratic evil-doers.

It's been written that it is gratifying to be cured of an affliction, but it is terrifying to be divested of a crutch.

The crutch for these people is having someone else to blame. That allows them to not be responsible for the consequences of their decisions. In essence, they don't have to grow up.
 
 
+62 # pernsey 2012-09-11 20:01
Fox news must be doing a heck of snow job on some of this stuff for people to think Mitt Romney had any involvement at all in getting bin laden. Its lunacy... as are the neocons, that is just plain nuts!
 
 
-36 # MidwestTom 2012-09-11 21:47
And you people want to make sure that everyone who can fog a mirror gets to vote. This article simply proves that both Democrats and Republicans have totally uninformed voters, and they decide who wins. Thank God that Mickey Mouse hasn't decided to run for office, he would probably win.
 
 
+17 # mim 2012-09-12 06:39
How did this comment get a positive rating? Read the first sentence, folks!
 
 
+5 # in deo veritas 2012-09-12 09:18
Considering how many people have voted in the past when their names were taken from tombstones what would be the problem? The Repukes don't want anyone to vote that is not taken in by their empty rhetoric.
 
 
+4 # KittatinyHawk 2012-09-12 09:25
Mickey Mouse has tried to run and we ignore...too bad, he may of actually been more human than the rest Remember he was not a puppet. He was a Cartoon Character with the likes of what the repubs have offered in the past thirty years...what is the difference?


I would Vote for Mickey
 
 
+17 # dkonstruction 2012-09-12 09:55
Quoting MidwestTom:
And you people want to make sure that everyone who can fog a mirror gets to vote. This article simply proves that both Democrats and Republicans have totally uninformed voters, and they decide who wins. Thank God that Mickey Mouse hasn't decided to run for office, he would probably win.


Mickey may not be running but the rethugs did nominate Goofy.
 
 
-5 # Billy Bob 2012-09-12 15:26
Us people just want to make sure CITIZENS get a right to vote.

YOU people seem to have a problem with that.

WHY?
 
 
-6 # Billy Bob 2012-09-12 18:48
Seriously, rather than just giving me a thumbs down, how about responding?
 
 
0 # edge 2012-09-14 09:25
Quoting Billy Bob:
Seriously, rather than just giving me a thumbs down, how about responding?


If you appear to be intelligent you get a thumbs down, but if you knee jerk agree with the socialistic point of view it is thumbs up all the way!
 
 
+2 # ptalady 2012-09-14 15:29
I couldn't figure out who your concept of "us" and "you" were, depriving your comment of meaning for me. At first you seemed to be saying that you want to keep non-citizens from voting, but your later comment about opposing republican efforts to impede voting cast doubt on that interpretation. What actually were you talking about?
 
 
-2 # Billy Bob 2012-09-12 22:22
So, let me get this straight. I'm being given thumbs down for suggesting that people should be allowed to vote, and saying that conservative efforts to make it harder to vote are wrong?

Could someone please explain why other people think we shouldn't be allowed to vote?
 
 
-2 # Billy Bob 2012-09-12 22:32
I'm just going to go ahead and saying voting is a right no matter how many thumbs down I get on this thread for it. Too bad no one can explain to me why it's not a right.
 
 
+5 # BradFromSalem 2012-09-13 07:06
BB,

I am starting to wonder if there are some Right Wing plants that don't post, they just push the thumbs down button.

As I have said before, I would rather have 100 illegals vote in order to make sure that every qualified voter can vote.
 
 
+1 # pernsey 2012-09-14 08:48
Quoting Billy Bob:
I'm just going to go ahead and saying voting is a right no matter how many thumbs down I get on this thread for it. Too bad no one can explain to me why it's not a right.


I gave you thumbs up BB, I am all for people voting, I think possibly your first post got misconstrued. I think your reponse was to MidwestTom, but possibly others didnt connect the dots on that?
 
 
+5 # flippancy 2012-09-14 06:49
Quoting Billy Bob:
Us people just want to make sure CITIZENS get a right to vote.

YOU people seem to have a problem with that.

WHY?


Because you are intimating falsely that non citizens are voting.
 
 
+1 # flippancy 2012-09-14 06:47
Quoting MidwestTom:
And you people want to make sure that everyone who can fog a mirror gets to vote. This article simply proves that both Democrats and Republicans have totally uninformed voters, and they decide who wins. Thank God that Mickey Mouse hasn't decided to run for office, he would probably win.


Only on the Republican ticket. Liberals have functioning brains, but if Faux News backed Mickey Mouse every Republican would be punching his number.
 
 
+62 # flippancy 2012-09-11 21:57
They've gone from the fantasy of thinking Bush had something to do with it to this? And they wonder why liberals have so little respect for their intelligence?
 
 
+59 # Linda 2012-09-11 22:04
I always knew that most Republican's were delusional now this just proves it !
If they have nothing to show in the way of achievements as a party that is worthy to exist in our government ,well they will just make stuff up and hope it sticks !
They have become the party of liars ,cheats,racists and the mentally challenged !
 
 
+21 # Ralph Averill 2012-09-12 04:32
"They have become the party of liars, cheats, racists and the mentally challenged!"
I have always preferred "thieves, thugs, and whores" as a description of Republican leadership. There is a musical quality to the phrase. Racists and the mentally challenged certainly describes many of the rank and file.
 
 
0 # flippancy 2012-09-14 06:51
Quoting Ralph Averill:
"They have become the party of liars, cheats, racists and the mentally challenged!"
I have always preferred "thieves, thugs, and whores" as a description of Republican leadership. There is a musical quality to the phrase. Racists and the mentally challenged certainly describes many of the rank and file.


As I've been saying for some time, the only 5 reasons for voting Republican are ignorance, stupidity, insanity, bigotry and greed.
 
 
+1 # ptalady 2012-09-14 15:36
I regret that you included "mentally challenged" in your laundry list of problems with the Republican party. Lying, cheating and racism are readily demonstrable. I could also easily include morally bankrupt and even brain-washed, which can happen to even the most intelligent among us. mentally challenged ... very likely the intelligence of Republicans on the whole is average, just like every one else. True that highly educated people tend toward progressive politics, but that is not the same as saying conservatives are mentally deficient. To me, it degrades the argument to insert mere name-calling this way.
 
 
-82 # chirostv 2012-09-11 22:05
Clinton talks about the incredible political price that Obama would have paid if the mission had failed and never for a moment considered the price the men would have paid if it would have failed. These are leaders?
 
 
+45 # humanmancalvin 2012-09-11 22:31
You low information Tea Bagger types are getting really desperate attacking our president with complete nonsense like this. I know you smell defeat in the air, its the odor emitting from your flip-flopping, tax dodging, lying candidate. You know the one even Tea Baggers dislike.
 
 
+19 # KittatinyHawk 2012-09-12 09:30
I watched the again repeated Diane Sawyer questions to Ryan...he doesn't even know what Romney says, what the figures are, where he came up with them nor can he back up anything his running mate says.
That is who they chose for VP It was on the news the previous night that Ryan was known for his intelligence What in eagle scouts? Certainly not in keeping informed on todays questions. they are given the questions to be used. If people understood that maybe they would see that their Candidates have less knowledge of current policy, debt reduction than a beached up whale.
I do not know how People who pretend to be civilized can vote for such utter ignorance
 
 
0 # ptalady 2012-09-14 15:39
Maybe the game plan is for the VP to run the show again, as in the previous republican administration. That culd explain why Romney's proposals are unimportant to Ryan.
 
 
+20 # bmiluski 2012-09-12 08:58
Had you been a little more open, you'd have heard President Clinton mention the brave men of the mission.
 
 
+26 # zachwes 2012-09-12 09:00
Bush failed to heed all the warnings pre-dating 9/11. Look at all the people that died that day, and in the wars afterward. You call that leadership??? What universe are you living in?
 
 
+12 # in deo veritas 2012-09-12 09:21
How much has Bush and his scurvy crew ever cared about all our troops killed or maimed as a result of his obsessive illegal wars? NOT ONE IOTA! Appearantly the present administration doesn't care either or the scum would be behind bars or out of the world by now. No justice!
 
 
+6 # reiverpacific 2012-09-12 12:09
Quoting chirostv:
Clinton talks about the incredible political price that Obama would have paid if the mission had failed and never for a moment considered the price the men would have paid if it would have failed. These are leaders?

In plain English please -and with some point, with the blinkers off!?
 
 
+69 # pwehrle 2012-09-11 22:06
It is truly sad to see how dumb this country has become. I am almost embarrassed to admit that I am american when I travel overseas. The Europeans are convinced we have lost our way and our minds.
 
 
+15 # Independentgal 2012-09-12 07:39
Agree wholeheartedly. I'll be traveling to Europe soon and have been wondering what the comments from the Europeans would be. You've confirmed my worst fears. It should be interesting.
 
 
+4 # KittatinyHawk 2012-09-12 09:33
Do not worry about it...they are not in a better basket than we are.
Their better attributes is not accepting products from us made in China, not wanting Monsanto

Otherwise, Europe has not room to speak.
 
 
+2 # KittatinyHawk 2012-09-12 09:31
Europeans have no much room to judge anyone. Their Heads of State are very cozy to whoever they believe will help them.
No pointer
 
 
-104 # SMoonz 2012-09-11 22:08
The funny thing is Obama didn't get him either. Tim Osman, um I mean Osama, was probably dead a looong time before that....
 
 
+33 # Ralph Averill 2012-09-12 04:34
Evidence, please.
 
 
-5 # SMoonz 2012-09-12 21:44
-Rober Baer, CIA Agent who inspired the movie "Syriana" stated in 2008 that Osama was dead.

-President Musharaf of Pakistan said the same thing in 2002.

-On July 17, 2002, the then-head of counterterroris m at the FBI, Dale Watson, told a conference of law enforcement officials that Osama was dead (CBS News)

-In October 2002, Afghan President Hamid Karzai told CNN the same thing.

"In 2003, former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright told Fox News Channel analyst Morton Kondracke she suspected Bush knew the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden and was waiting for the most politically expedient moment to announce his capture."

-In November 2005, Senator Harry Reid revealed that he was told Osama may have died in the Pakistani earthquake of October 2005.

-On November 2, 2007, former Pakistani Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto told Al-Jazeera's David Frost that Omar Sheikh had killed Osama Bin Laden." (Youtube)

"In March 2009, former US foreign intelligence officer and professor of international relations at Boston University Angelo Codevilla said he was dead.

"In May 2009, Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari said the same thing and claimed info came from U.S. intel.

"In April 2002, Council on Foreign Relations member Steve R. Pieczenik,Bin Laden had already been "dead for months".
 
 
+2 # dovelane1 2012-09-14 03:45
You could be correct, but this is still all hearsay evidence, even though the sources seem credible, where is the proof? If it wasn't Bin Laden, who was it?

Unfortuanately, if you are correct, the main evidence is at the bottom of the ocean, and if you are correct, there was a good reason for that. I will do my best to keep an open mind about the possibility you bring up, but will wait further proof before making any final decisions.
 
 
+4 # aaheart 2012-09-14 11:49
All the SEALs would have needed to do to
'prove" would have been to turn his body over to Pakistan government for verification of his identity. Disappearing the body in the sea is at least circumstantial proof that the SEALs didn't have ANY proof. Photoshopped evidence doesn't cut it, either. Claims by politicians aren't much better.

In addition, the testimony of the eyewitnesses to the attack claims that only one helicopter tried to land and that one crashed and burned leaving no survivors. Later all members of that SEALs unit "died" in a crash elsewhere. Just a coincidence, I suppose.
 
 
+31 # szq5777 2012-09-12 05:12
Excuse Me! What planet are you from?
 
 
+6 # in deo veritas 2012-09-12 09:23
Get real! So the book by the Navy Seal is a work of fiction?
 
 
+7 # Billy Bob 2012-09-12 15:28
Anything it takes to make sure the President doesn't get credit for something bush REFUSE to do, right?
 
 
-4 # SMoonz 2012-09-12 21:51
Even if Bush had done something like that, which he clearly did not, it would have been null.

Review the Project for a New American Century and you will see that Wolfwowitz, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld and others were intent on creating a scenario "like a New Pearl Harbor" to take over the Middle East and its resources for multi national corporations.

When you look at the fact that Cheney was behind the stand down order on 9.11, Dov Zakheim writing the conclusion of the 9.11 Report way in advance of the start of the investigation, among many other things, it is easy to conclude that Osama was not the "mastermind" but rather elements within the Administration.
 
 
+1 # Billy Bob 2012-09-12 22:28
So, you're saying that bush "didn't want to get bin laden" because they knew he was innocent and was really a pretty nice guy, afterall, if they wanted to kill the perpetrators of 9-11 they'd be killing themselves?

It's hard for me to understand why bush wouldn't have had the incentive to kill bin laden, other than the idea that they were partners in crime. Otherwise, you seem to be crediting bush with an amount of honor because he wouldn't want to drag "an innocent man" in to his own crimes.
 
 
-4 # SMoonz 2012-09-13 11:11
Bush couldn't get Bin Laden because it is hard to get a dead man... there were reports as early as December 2001 that he was dead.

Now about the partners in crime part, do recall that the Bush family had business for many years with the Bin Laden family. On 9/11 and the days after that when all flights were grounded, Bush authorized flying them out of the U.S. so they could go back to Saudi Arabia.
 
 
+2 # flippancy 2012-09-14 06:56
Quoting Billy Bob:
So, you're saying that bush "didn't want to get bin laden" because they knew he was innocent and was really a pretty nice guy, afterall, if they wanted to kill the perpetrators of 9-11 they'd be killing themselves?

It's hard for me to understand why bush wouldn't have had the incentive to kill bin laden, other than the idea that they were partners in crime. Otherwise, you seem to be crediting bush with an amount of honor because he wouldn't want to drag "an innocent man" in to his own crimes.


It's more evil than that, the bin Laden family pulled Bush back from bankruptcy twice. When the Army had Osama directly in their sights (literally) and requested permission to pull the trigger he told them to stand down.
 
 
+4 # aaheart 2012-09-14 11:56
Truth is real hard to handle, istn't it Billy Bob? And taking credit for an extrajudicial murder could land Obama in the Hague whenever the PTB want to pull the chain. Every person killed in a foreign country by Obama and the boys is a violation of international law. Same for Bush. And Bill Clinton and Hillary. And Cheney, Panetta, Condi...
 
 
+2 # ptalady 2012-09-14 16:15
Appreciate your comment. It makes me wonder what other "dirt" is in place on Obama, and on others in leadership positions, and on what threats. I found that the prominent use of leaders' children/family in the Hunger Games trilogy stimulated my imagination a lot.
 
 
+25 # rhodge4477 2012-09-11 22:17
As Rachel (Maddow) inferred the other night when referencing this, you almost want to think that they (repubs) are (or were) attempting to 'pull a fast one'... kinda like leaking false information that will be picked up without scrutiny and running with it, only to find you've been tricked and subsequently scandalized for being so gullible and thereby 'discredited'? Or am I giving them too much credit for being able to come up with something so clever, and they are just relying on the United States of Amnesia to gulp down anything? What's next? Eastwood scolding a CHAIR???
 
 
0 # flippancy 2012-09-14 06:57
Nope, that's exactly what they did to Dan Rather. That typewriter and typeface DID exist then.
 
 
0 # ptalady 2012-09-14 16:16
Oh they're plenty clever.
 
 
+17 # BeaDeeBunker 2012-09-11 22:48
I guess the reasoning of these, I don't really know what to call them to be honest, THINGS, is that since Obama is not even an American, and Romney is, only Romney could have taken out bin Laden. Also, since Obama is a devout Muslim, and can't kill another Muslim, and since Romney is a devout Morman, and can kill an infidel, only Romney could have killed bin Laden, that infidel. Why it's most probable, since the Morman's have one of the best system for tracing ancestors, that Romney is related in some way to someone who participated in the Crusades. Yeah, that's the ticket. The polls also point out that Mitt Romney invented the Internet, not that loser who couldn't beat Bush II, The Incompetent One. As far as Bush II is concerned, I blame his reign on the pretzel company...they have to make them boxed pretzels bigger.

BTW, who's this Public Policy Polling group? Are they legit? Are they on Rove's payroll? I mean who comes up with these Public Policy questions? It doesn't come close to passing the simple smell test, and yet these THINGS seem to be drawn to that smell like starving puppies!
 
 
+23 # wwway 2012-09-11 23:15
Lying steals the right to the truth. That some Americans feel they must lie proves how much contempt they have for the truth and their fellow Americans. Shameful. But Republicans went to bed with the Religious Right. The religious right believes it's OK to lie if it serves God. They've wanted a holy war with Islam since the 1970's and they are determined to get it.
 
 
+5 # in deo veritas 2012-09-12 09:28
What these idiots believe will come crashing down when the God they purport to speak for actually makes His presence known and passes judgment on them for trying to make Him an accomplice to their rotten deeds. They better be ready.
 
 
+9 # doneasley 2012-09-12 11:37
Quoting wwway:
Lying steals the right to the truth...


wwway, the Regressives have built their entire Rmoney/Lyin' Ryan ticket on lies. If you have a valid argument, why would you choose to lie about EVERYTHING! They're so tied up in lies now that they can't remember what they said last, changing their positions every time out.

Rmoney is more experienced at it. I've observed him closely since the beginning of the GOP debates and watched him evolve into THE GREAT PREVARICATOR - a man who cannot tell the truth about anything, including his taxes.

But Ryan looks like a deer in the headlights when confronted with the truth. Why would he choose to lie about something as simple as a marathon time - especially under 3 hours - and get caught in the lie afterwards? I've run 10 marathons, including Boston in '81, and I know what it takes to run under 3 hours. My best was 3:05, running several 80-mile training weeks prior to the event. You don't just go out and run a 2:50+ marathon with minimal training. (By the way, the best marathoners are down around 2:06 now - about 4:50/mile).

This is the worst lead up to an election I've ever seen. I'm anxious to see how they both handle themselves in the Obama/Biden debates. I'm ashamed for them that they chose to try to pull the wool over the eyes of the American people, and put what might have been a legitimate candidacy in the gutter.

Worse yet... WHAT IF THEY WIN?
 
 
-53 # aaheart 2012-09-11 23:20
The self-important are claiming that THET knew Romney didn't get Obama and then go on to assure each other the Obama DID! But Osama's death was reported ten years ago, dying from Marfan's Syndrome at Tora Bora in mid-December 2001. Same folks probably believed that the 2002 video of the chubby-cheeked, short pointy nosed substitute was the real deal. It was funny reading the jingoistic lingo nodding knowingly as the faux Osama claimed responsibility for 9-11 in the stead of his namesake, the narrow-faced, long-nosed Osama who had died and was buried already.
 
 
+18 # Independentgal 2012-09-12 07:41
Is that what Rush and Fox are saying these days?
 
 
+3 # SMoonz 2012-09-13 11:04
Both Rush and Fox want us to believe the war on terror is a reality. So no, neither of those clowns would say it.
 
 
+13 # bmiluski 2012-09-12 09:03
pLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, tell me the source of this information. (I bet you can't)
 
 
+3 # pernsey 2012-09-12 15:25
Quoting bmiluski:
pLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, tell me the source of this information. (I bet you can't)


Im more then willing to bet the source is Fox news or blow hard Limbaugh, because no real news source would spout that garbage.
 
 
0 # SMoonz 2012-09-13 11:07
That's funny because both Fox and Limbaugh constantly remind us that there is a "War on Terror."
Actually the Marfan story popped up years ago on ABC and CBS...
 
 
+1 # ptalady 2012-09-14 16:56
Also I just now read the "dead from marfan" story on Fox News web-page, reporting an article from a middle-east news outlet claiming Bin Laden died peacefully of the ailment.
 
 
-3 # SMoonz 2012-09-13 11:08
One source who spoke of Marfan's Syndrom was Dr. Steve Pieczenik.
 
 
+1 # ptalady 2012-09-14 16:48
I regret what I think are typos in your post. Did you mean to say ... "THEY knew R. didn't get Osama"? I too highly question whether our current president is responsible for Bin Laden's death, and found the images of him watching the supposed snuff movie weird in the extreme.
 
 
-52 # Zagreus 2012-09-11 23:21
Until I see some pictures (though they could easily fake those) I don't have any proof that ANYBODY got Bin Laden.

All we have is Obama's word, and he hasn't been very good at keeping it about anything else.

So let's just say there's a couple of crooked puppets for the 1% who are both taking credit for killing somebody that may or not have even been killed.
 
 
+23 # rockieball 2012-09-12 07:48
Well what about the men on the mission? What about last weeks interview with the leader of the Delta force? You had better believe that if G.W and Company knew that the man was dead they would have bragged it to high Heaven and declared a holiday.
 
 
+9 # doneasley 2012-09-12 12:02
Quoting rockieball@yahoo.com:
... You had better believe that if G.W and Company knew that the man was dead they would have bragged it to high Heaven and declared a holiday.


You're oh so right, rockie. Remember how they displayed Saddam's 2 sons in their caskets after they killed them. That was in really bad taste. Remember too, Bush landing on the deck of the Abe Lincoln in full flight regalia on May 1st '03 to announce "Mission Accomplished"? Seems like I remember President Obama quietly ending the OCCUPATION OF IRAQ at the end of 2011 - 8 years later.

What a group of POMPOUS, PREENING CHICKENHAWKS!
 
 
+12 # in deo veritas 2012-09-12 09:33
We should be intent on prosecuting those who ignored warnings of an attack on 9/11 who made it possible for it to take place. Osama just took advantage of this opportunity. Regardless of if,how or when he was taken out, those criminals are still at large and within our grasp. Why has nothing been done by the present administration?
 
 
-50 # jbell94521 2012-09-11 23:21
Well this just goes to show how sadly ignorant most Americans are. Of course, the whole issue is a moot point since the person known as Osama bijn Laden was dead long before the little Seal Show that Obama put on. That is well known and well documented in the intel community. It is not even up for speculation. And, of course, that is why the Seal Team had to be wiped out shortly after their "mission" and once a few leaks started showing up. How very sad. So many lives sacrificed all to maintain foolish charades. And, of course, doubly sad that this stupid Kabuki dance may play a substanial role in decidinig who the next president of the world's most powerful nation will be. Talk about a joke in bad taste...
 
 
+18 # bmiluski 2012-09-12 09:04
If it's all over the intel community could you please let us ignorant bastards know how to access it. I have got to read this.
 
 
-1 # SMoonz 2012-09-13 11:02
Look up the statements made by Robert Baer, Benazhir Bhutto, Dr. Steve Pieczenik, Angelo Codevilla, Hamid Karzai, Harry Reid... all said he was dead. I listed them as well above in a thread.
 
 
+19 # MEBrowning 2012-09-12 09:20
OK, jbell94521, rectify this joke-in-bad-tas te situation and show us your evidence. I think rockieball has it right: The Bush/Cheney thugs would have lit up the skies with self-congratula tion if bin Laden had been killed on their watch. So where's your evidence that is so "well known and well documented?"
 
 
-6 # KittatinyHawk 2012-09-12 09:39
Not doubting that the laden guy was already dead from disease, or hung by his own We will not know this
But what Seal Team was wiped out....witness protection perhaps with some agape mouthed greedy person writing a book to back up this story

But the fact is if Laden is Dead, the knowledge is open from Our President and the Seals actions If the Intel who knows who that is since I see no intelligence out there, the game manufacturer, Knew so much than how come those good honest people did not come forward to claim their Worship?

Who cares, fact is we blew up the mansion, seals got the credit, and the hateful group is still around with a new leader weekly. You can set all the mouse traps you want, Evil is still lurking in every corner...Republ icans should know since they are akin to such
 
 
+24 # KrazyFromPolitics 2012-09-11 23:53
It must be something in the water that lowers IQ to hover around room temperature. This whole political season has been frustrating display of power brokering, dishonesty, lack of integrity, stupidity that I have seen in a long time. The Republican/Fox noise machine seems like news written while on acid, with the same distortion of reality. It is a sad commentary that that there are so many lazy, low information, fearful, hate-filled "citizens" that buy into this crap.

The truly fearful aspect is that what appears to be a crass program of misinformation to simpletons is actually a sophisticated, cynical and relentless reprogramming of enough of the population (voters) to secure power and dismantle the fabric of our country into a population of serfs. What angers me is that we have a Democratic Party that does not push back as though their life depended on it, because it does.

That said, this poll has to be a sophisticated practical joke. Please?
 
 
0 # flippancy 2012-09-14 07:05
UI must disagree with you, somewhat. There is no evidence that those fools have an IQ as high as Southwestern summer temperatures. Indeed George W's IQ is 99 and that's nowhere the ambient temperature at home many days.
 
 
-22 # Pollard 2012-09-12 01:16
The FBI has publicly acknowledged that Osama bin Laden had nothing to do with 9-11. Osama may have applauded the incident after the fact but denied being complicit in the event. Charlie should be well paid at Esquire for keeping Idiot America idiots.

The dozens of mothers complaining in the Israeli media about the 235 Israeli nationals the US Justice Department locked up after 9-11 did not get a lot of play in the US press. Other than a tiny paragraph carried by associated press,neither did the five Israelis arrested on September 12 heading north of San Francisco on I-5 with diagrams of a huge power plant in Portland matter to the braindead in television land. Other than FOX News briefly reporting five Israelis were detained September 11 a few minutes from the George Washington Bridge, that story did not need to be conveyed to those obedient Americans in TV land. World Trade Centers lease holder Larry Silverstein was forthright to admit that the decision was made to "pull" World Trade Center #7" at 5:15 on 9-11 to a stunned McNeil Layer interviewer on PBS, but how he was able to connive the insurance company to pay on the double indemnity insurance policy he put in place two weeks prior to the implosion is not something 60 Minutes will be investigating. The scheduled largest ever asbesto removal project in history was obviously not neccessary after the towers imploded in their footprints at the speed of gravity.
 
 
+15 # wrknight 2012-09-12 06:24
You must have heard that on Faux (oops, Fox) News. That's where most fools get their bullshit.
 
 
+2 # SMoonz 2012-09-13 11:15
Actually Fox News is very much pro- Israel so the Israeli story was left out.
 
 
-1 # flippancy 2012-09-14 07:10
Quoting SMoonz:
Actually Fox News is very much pro- Israel so the Israeli story was left out.



No right winger or wingnut institution is actually prom Israeli, they're just pulling for the predictions of the Apocalypse to manifest. The average Republican is just as anti-semitic as they are racist which is why a large majority of Jews have been Democratic over the years. Studies have shown that about 25% of Republicans are racists and I'd imagine the same applies as to hating Jewish people.
 
 
+1 # ptalady 2012-09-14 17:05
You might not be persuaded by 9-11 truth info, but I'm pretty sure it is not found on FOX news. Not that I really watch/read FOX.
 
 
+1 # wrknight 2012-09-12 06:46
http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2011/may/binladen_050211/binladen_050211
 
 
-3 # SMoonz 2012-09-12 21:30
Interesting that you linked us to the FBI story. Now, go ahead and expand that same "Most Wanted" picture. It cites the reasons why Osama was Wanted and it mentions the Embassy bombings and the USS Cole but in does not mention the 9/11 attacks. Why is that? Maybe it's because the agency itself stated they did not have enough evidence to blame him for that event.
 
 
+3 # Billy Bob 2012-09-12 22:29
Why was the FBI involved in an international crime? Was bin laden a U.S. citizen or something?
 
 
-2 # SMoonz 2012-09-13 10:54
The 9/11 Commission pointed out that there was a lack of communication between the CIA and FBI. The hijackers were also being monitored by agents of both agencies, in some cases they had contacts up to the days before the attacks. So the FBI was involved.
 
 
+12 # bmiluski 2012-09-12 09:06
I have been trying to find the neo-con blogs where I can post some of my thoughts and dear sweet Jesus, they have come to us.
So this is the kind of stuff you people believe in. Are you the same ones that called climate change a lie?
 
 
-2 # KittatinyHawk 2012-09-12 09:42
Intelligent people know that the Bush's cheny factor used this family Okay it has been taunted on every blog since 9/11

Fact is he was just a role model of evil that they wanted out...you know those kill lists everyone has. So he may be out and it was on our watch That is the point no more no less Now the rats want to take the credit I say let them, then they can be on the Hit List of not us
 
 
-4 # SMoonz 2012-09-12 21:31
Good to see you've done your research. Thumbs up.
 
 
+24 # Iridescat 2012-09-12 03:30
I suspect that a lot of the people who responded "don't know" were actually thinking something along the lines that Obama is merely a figurehead or puppet who doesn't deserve real credit for any form of leadership (therefore, he doesn't deserve credit any more than Romney does). This fantasy circulates in the right-wing rumorsphere along with the ones about Obama's Kenyan birth certificate and Muslim agenda and FEMA concentration camps. Of course, a lot of the same people probably think the previous president was a pretty smart guy. The fact that the current president knows how to use subordinate clauses while the previous one did best with three-word phrases doesn't dissuade people who want to believe Obama is too stupid to run anything.
 
 
+7 # bmiluski 2012-09-12 09:07
What and where is a FEMA concentration camp?
 
 
+4 # pernsey 2012-09-12 15:28
Quoting bmiluski:
What and where is a FEMA concentration camp?


The FEMA camps are only in the minds of the Fox news deluded!
 
 
+12 # WolfTotem 2012-09-12 03:38
P A R A N O I A ! ! !

Or, as Patton would have put it, NUTS!
 
 
+3 # in deo veritas 2012-09-12 09:38
Try Gen. MacAuliffe instead. His quote.
 
 
-39 # RMDC 2012-09-12 04:46
The killing of Osama bin Laden was premeditated murder. Anyone who braggs about giving the order needs to be put in jail.

There's no proof that OBL had anything to do with 9-11. The FBI never even listed this charge on their "wanted" sheet. OBL was a propaganda puppet for US imperialism, something the real terrorists could wag in front of TV dazed amerikkkans in order to make them crazy.

When the GWOT turned its sights on legitimate and secular governments as in Libya and Syria -- nations that were always opposed to al Queda -- OBL was no longer needed so he was murdered and his body ditched in the ocean. Now the US freely uses al Queda mercenaries to fight in Syria, Libya, Somalia, Yemen, and other places.

Anyone who braggs about murdering OBL is truly insane and belongs in prison.
 
 
+15 # pernsey 2012-09-12 07:52
RMDC your whole post is insane.
 
 
-10 # BradFromSalem 2012-09-12 07:54
RMDC,

I totally agree that killing bin Laden was not a good idea. However, he was not on the FBI's list because he was a foreign threat and under the auspices of the CIA and the military. That bin Laden had been a tool of the US is undeniable, but he walked away from that a long time before 9-11.
The killing of bin Laden was clearly a military action performed in retribution for the attacks on US Embassies and the USS Cole. The act was morally questionable and it perpetuated a negative international image of the US as a bully and not the beacon of justice a large number of Americans think we are.

The whole concept that by killing bin Laden we brought him to justice is just one piece of the American tapestry that needs to be rewoven, instead complaining that the current tapestry is full of holes and smells of rot; why not help remake it?
 
 
-9 # KittatinyHawk 2012-09-12 09:44
Very well put

I will not take credit for killing someone I know not if we did.

But bully no I believe Syria, Palistine, Iran will give us that
 
 
+4 # BradFromSalem 2012-09-12 13:42
Sometimes I wonder.

I got 4 thumbs down for saying that I didn't agree that killing bin Laden was the right move. It so happens I am 100% against the death penalty, and yes; if someone beat and murdered my wife I would want to kill them. That's why we have laws, so that the state acts from a higher position of authority on law breakers than any individual seeking revenge.
Kittatiny, you liked what I said and proceed to get 5 thumbs down.

I would really like to hear from one of them to explain why.
 
 
-4 # flippancy 2012-09-14 07:15
If you consider this to be a "war on terror" you must understand that killing the enemy, whether or not you believe in the death penalty, is a legitimate goal in war.
 
 
+4 # aaheart 2012-09-14 11:31
Undeclared wars are violations of international law. War on terror is an undefined, undeclared war and therefore illegal. Killing in an undeclared war is still murder...
 
 
+1 # BradFromSalem 2012-09-14 14:29
I only said I did not think killing Bin Laden was the appropriate action, whether he is war criminal or just an old fashioned bad guy. By the way, in war; you are still supposed to take prisoners if possible.
 
 
+1 # ptalady 2012-09-14 17:11
but it's not a war on terror; it's a war OF terror against the ordinary folk of the world. In any form gloating over killing a person strikes me as barbaric and grisly.
 
 
+5 # RMDC 2012-09-13 04:30
Brad -- here's the FBI wanted poster.

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/usama-bin-laden

It now lists him as "deceased." The FBI is now a global investigative organization. They actually have offices all over the world. All the distinctions that used to be in place between the CIA as an external intelligence organization and the FBI as an internal one are gone. They both work everywhere.
 
 
+7 # bmiluski 2012-09-12 09:08
Please, will someone out there give me the name of a republican rag so I can go and post my comments on it.
 
 
+3 # BradFromSalem 2012-09-12 13:30
Republican sites vet people and don't allow no contrarians. But if you hear of one that allows open discussions, let us all know!
 
 
+4 # mim 2012-09-12 14:35
Like those Bush rallies that admitted only people willing to appear in a Bush campaign ad. The Republicans can dish it out but they can't take it.
 
 
+1 # flippancy 2012-09-14 07:16
Quoting BradFromSalem:
Republican sites vet people and don't allow no contrarians. But if you hear of one that allows open discussions, let us all know!


Boy! I had one post on NewsMax. It was removed almost immediately and I was banned from the site. God forbid the idiots who post there should hear anything true.
 
 
0 # rockieball 2012-09-15 10:20
Boy are you right about that Flippancy. Since 2001 I think I have been removed from at least 2 dozen Republican group sites. Sometime for just posting a question. On the Liberal sites a right-winger would get on make statement but hardly ever can post a link to links to backup what they say. And when they get it in return 99 out of 100 times they just go away because they cannot contradict the evidence and believe the lies from the right. I mean I posted video links and news articles and like you some were removed almost immediately and I was banned. To them the truth only exist in the fairy tale world that they are told is real. They still live in the 30's Henry Aldrich and the 50's Leave It to Beaver world that never was.
 
 
+3 # Onterryo 2012-09-12 10:25
RMDC...the epitmoe of hyperbole.

"On October 29, 2004, at 21:00 UTC, al Jazeera broadcast excerpts from a videotape of Osama bin Laden addressing the people of the United States (in which he accepts responsibility for the September 11 attacks) condemns the Bush government's response to those attacks and presents those attacks as part of a campaign of revenge and deterrence motivated by his witnessing of the destruction in the Lebanese Civil War in 1982".

Now get your head out of your butt and try to analyze first and hate later rather than the other way around.

BTW...politics makes even sane people adopt practises and positions they otherwise would not. Doesn't make them insane...and even if it did...they would go to an asylum or hospital...not a prison.

And "GWOT"?..Obama doesn't use that acronym anymore (not since 2009). Get with the times...it's now.."Overseas Contingency Operation".

Yur welcome!
 
 
+2 # RMDC 2012-09-13 04:49
Ont -- yes, I know Obama has converted the GWOT into a full scale war of recolonization of Africa and the middle east. OK I'll stop using GWOT but Osama was really only the poster puppet for the GWOT. He's not needed in the re-conquista of Africa and the middle east. There's a different propaganda campaign now -- its liberal imperialism. The US is not getting revenge for 9-11 but it is "liberating" people and bringing "democracy."

The 2004 video you refer to has been challenged a lot. The translation provided to al Jazzera by the CIA has been questioned. Osama refers to the twin towers and to Kerry, but he does not claim responsibility for the act. In official US government policy, he is not blamed for the act. Khalid Sheik Mohammad and others in Pakistan are.

Bin Laden has always only been a propaganda puppet. I repeat -- he is now no longer needed. The narrative has changed. The US is now using al Queda fighters and random fundamentalists to fight its wars in Libya, Syria, Mali, Egypt, and so on.
 
 
+29 # vt143 2012-09-12 05:25
Mitt Romney had as much to do with killing OBL as my grandmother (who died in 1988). My wife has always kind of joked about her pet conspiracy theory that corporations are feeding us all kinds of junk food to dumb us down. Well, I think it's about time we begin to accept her theory. What else explains it?
 
 
+9 # mdhome 2012-09-12 11:00
I do not think junk food can produce such ignorance, only fox noise can do that.
 
 
0 # flippancy 2012-09-14 07:18
Quoting mdhome:
I do not think junk food can produce such ignorance, only fox noise can do that.


Faux News IS junk food for the brain.
 
 
+19 # riverhouse 2012-09-12 05:45
Of course these people know Mitt Romney had no part in the decision to kill bin Laden. Those assignments of credit reflect nothing but their racism and their inability to credit President Obama with anything positive. It's just a reflection of their basic hatred of the President. They may not know that Mitt Romney had said he would not invade "our ally, Pakistan" for bin Laden and that he didn't thin going after bin Laden was "worth the risk", but they certainly know Mitt Romney had absolutely nothing to do with it.
 
 
+7 # bmiluski 2012-09-12 09:11
Race has nothing to do with the republican hatred of democrates. Newt and his buddies spent over $2 billion trying to "GET" Clinton. And all they got was a BJ.
 
 
+6 # BradFromSalem 2012-09-12 13:33
Actually Clinton got the BJ. Newt got stuck with Calistra - Yikes!
 
 
+20 # stonecutter 2012-09-12 06:16
Look, most people in red states don't know where France is and think Africa is a country. Sadly, over time we've become a nation of idiots, and proud of it. Trying to reason with these people would be like walking up to a group of alcoholic bums on the mean streets of NY and trying to engage them in a debate about abortion. A guaranteed echo chamber, and a complete waste of time. Bill Maher is once again absolutely right: they live in an alternate universe; no facts, no intelligence, no reason, all id. Like apes; they're not called knuckle-dragger s for nothing.
 
 
+17 # wrknight 2012-09-12 06:26
OMG! What does this say about education in America.

Or maybe there is something in the food and water supply.
 
 
+9 # in deo veritas 2012-09-12 09:45
It is NOT the educational system that is to blame. It is as I realized long ago that when you have kids in school 6-8 hours a day (only one class period for anything that teaches them to be good citizens and appreciate what the country was founded for), compared to the time spent preparing them to be in the labor force, making the rich richer, and the propaganda bombarding them from the media and Wall Street the rest of their day, what chance does REAL education have?
 
 
+6 # in deo veritas 2012-09-12 09:50
After the Sputnik gave us a wakeup call in 1957 we focused our educational curriculum on science and math. Not a bad thing except that it was at the expense of educating our youth to learn to live together and respect one another. The result was the race riots and radicalism of the 60's. We are in for another round of this considering the way we have repeated this folly in our present system. Everything divisive that can be done politically is being done by the lunatic right to bring on conflict that will make those tragedies pale by comparison.
 
 
+7 # in deo veritas 2012-09-12 09:51
Ask Monsanto about what they are doing to our food and water supply. Ask the Koches and other big polluters.
 
 
+5 # JSRaleigh 2012-09-12 11:27
Quoting wrknight:
OMG! What does this say about education in America.


It says the right-wingnutz are winning their war on public education.
 
 
+6 # doneasley 2012-09-12 13:03
Quoting JSRaleigh:
Quoting wrknight:
OMG! What does this say about education in America.


It says the right-wingnutz are winning their war on public education.


You're right, JS. They're even changing textbooks in Texas and Louisiana to include their Right-Wing BS.
 
 
+12 # moonrigger 2012-09-12 07:20
This is indicative of a much larger problem--an attitude amongst many on the right that it's admirable to flaunt lies if they serve their purpose--no matter how absurd or insulting. They abuse the intention of the first amendment, with little regard for the consequences, I.e. Sam Bacile. We have humored them long enough. They are destroying the very system they purport they want to protect. In fact, they're bratty bullies-hiding behind their mother's skirts as they give the world the finger. I have seen some positive signs recently that the media is finally calling them on their crap. Good thing. I hope it's not too late for this election.
 
 
+5 # dick 2012-09-12 07:29
Who's surprised? People aren't going to admit it's a Race War, or Class Warfare. All's fair in Race, Class, & KKKulture Wars.
 
 
-16 # cordleycoit 2012-09-12 07:50
No Bin Laden Was not Andy Griffins in bed sheets. He was a criminal and event in America criminals ought to be tried in a court of law. Stop trying to build moral high ground for equally criminal Presidents. We are an Empire, speak against the Empire and die. Obama must stop all critique. Otherwise the whole drama unwinds. Power corrupts.
 
 
+10 # in deo veritas 2012-09-12 09:53
You have evidently seen the revelations about the Bush gang ignoring warnings about an iminent attack on us (9/11). MORE people need to know about it and FDEMAND prosecutions!
 
 
+10 # Onterryo 2012-09-12 10:33
Ummmmmmm...a SEAL might put his life on the line to save an American but no one asked him to put his life on the line to take Bin Laden alive.

You ask past presidents and the current one what is the hardest part of their job and they are virtually unanimous in saying it is the decision to put American forces in danger..in conflict..in action.

I have no doubt there was a great deal of conflict within the Administration and the Pentagon about "Dead or Alive" but I truly believe they would have preferred alive for no other reason than the informtion he might have provided.

If it had been me..I would have shot him too if I felt any...any...sen se of threat against me or my comrades.
 
 
+13 # Interested Observer 2012-09-12 07:51
Probably sampled from the same bunch that still think Obama is a Muslim.
 
 
+8 # BradFromSalem 2012-09-12 07:57
Charles Pierce often write humorous, sarcastic articles. Please, Charlie, tell us this was intended to be a humorous article.

If not, then please find out what inspired this inane question to even be asked.
 
 
+11 # fredboy 2012-09-12 08:00
Yes, as the new GOP framing is simply overt lying, let's give The Mitten credit for killing Osama. I believe Republicans now realize their evangelical, fanatical, hate-filled droolers will believe anything.
 
 
+8 # Beenie 2012-09-12 08:10
I squawked loud and clear to Sen. Kerry and Congressman Markey and castigated them both for voting for the Iraq war. One reason people did stupid things like that is that if you criticized or disagreed with the Bush Crime Administrtion, you were IMMEDIATELY attacked as 'unpatriotic'. You were VILIFIED in the press and dooming your political future. Karl Rove lashed out at people and used intimidation to keep public criticism to a whisper.
 
 
+8 # bmiluski 2012-09-12 09:14
The republicans are still basically doing the same thing with this "Normquist" contract not to raise taxes. You'd better sign it or else they won't support your re-election.
 
 
+6 # vgirl1 2012-09-12 08:40
The absolute dumbing down of TPrepublican America is almost totally complete.

It is scarey to think that those who live in this state of irrationality could have a great effect on the outcome of the Presidential election and the course of our nation for the next 4 years.
 
 
+6 # in deo veritas 2012-09-12 09:55
They ARE the enemy. Ignorance is the enemy of civilization.
 
 
+4 # Granny Weatherwax 2012-09-12 08:42
I may have missed it; can anyone point me to the evidence of Bin Laden's culpability that the FBI's Mueller said would be produced when time comes?
Not saying he was a good guy or that he did not participate in 9/11, just wondering where the evidence is.
 
 
+6 # Trish42 2012-09-12 09:01
We should "commit to knowing what we're talking about"? Oh, Charles, that is so old-fashioned! Why bother to read and do your homework when it's so much easier to scream for your group?
 
 
+4 # Mrcead 2012-09-12 09:38
We're 1 generation away from taking our daily orders from a master computer. Who could manage such a chaotic nation?
 
 
+6 # teeboxusa 2012-09-12 12:11
All this shows is that the IQ of the average American is dreadfully low. I have no way to explain such idiocy.
 
 
+6 # John Escher 2012-09-12 13:48
Speaking of Bin Laden, a lady who believes in capital punishment any time or on hearsay or as a business decision recently used the Obama-Capone expression "take him out."
My favorite journalist, the young Jeremy Scahill, correctly judges all the anniversary day "take 'em out" rhetoric as American jingoism. And points to Anwar Al-awlaki’s 16-year-old son's murder and that of another typical innocent at a drone-produced scene. American jingoism utterly sucks whether it comes from someone in the street, the American president or the jovial block of cheese who sits spellbound next to his wife on a stage and gazes adoringly at her speaking self as if she is Aphrodite. Mitt the cheese's statement about what he's going to do to Iran is utterly chilling, not least when you consider that Iran is the place where the young people love the U.S. better than young people in the U.S. do.
Mitt and Ann were on TV. And everybody else in the room wanted me to shut up when I started to show my own conviction which caused me to tone things down.
Edward Kennedy was right. We all must stand up for what we believe. And I believe that too many people in America now are callous dopes knowingly or unknowingly hellbent on making the place decline and fall.
An anti-Muslim war involving half a dozen countries to begin with? The following statement has been dishonored, but by whom? "All we are saying...is...g ive peace a chance."
 
 
-5 # karenvista 2012-09-12 19:14
(Part 1) For all of you who get so upset about the possibility that Osama bin Laden may have been killed at Tora Bora in Dec. 2001-please keep in mind that he was the main tool used by the Bush neo-cons to justify the war in Iraq. At that time they had convinced over 80% of Americans that Saddam had worked with Osama on 9/11 even though anyone who knew anything about the situation was aware that there was absolutely no chance that Saddam would have cooperated with Osama, even if he were still alive.

Any of you who are actually liberals will know and respect Global Research so I'll give you a quote from an article they have which relies on a BBC website. It also quotes Robert Baer, an ex-CIA authority on bin Laden and the Middle East:

US intelligence officials base the claim that Bin Laden was at the caves of Tora Bora in December 2001 on intercepted mobile phone conversations emanating from that region. Ever since the bombing of the Tora Bora caves, Osama bin Laden’s voice has never again been heard from a source that can be trusted.

According to Robert Baer, an ex-member of the CIA, at least half of the US intelligence community concerned with this issue believe Osama was killed during the bombing at Tora Bora.
 
 
-2 # karenvista 2012-09-12 19:24
(Part 2)

I suspect the percentage is higher. My argument is simple: if he was in the Tora Bora complex when it was bombed in December 2001, then he certainly died during that bombing, because nothing living could have survived it. Here are my reasons.

The weapon of choice when bombing a cave and mountain tunnel complex like that at Tora Bora is what is called a thermobaric bomb.

Thermobaric bombs come in different sizes, but the largest are described as the most destructive non-nuclear bombs in existence. The British and Americans have them and have used them in Afghanistan. Thermobaric bombs are especially effective in mountain caves and tunnels systems. They will work if dropped outside the entrances to tunnels and can also be launched into tunnel structures. They destroy living creatures (and inert structures) through their incredibly rapid and powerful high pressure shockwaves (travelling 2 miles a second), their high temperature wave fronts (reaching over 2482-2982 degrees centigrade), the vacuum they create (which itself destroys living creatures and structures) and by asphyxiation (because the explosion has consumed all the oxygen in the air).
 
 
-2 # karenvista 2012-09-12 19:38
(Part 3)
Their destructive effect is so great that they can, depending upon their size, destroy all life within a 600 metre radius of their blast site. The airplanes that drop the larger versions must remain at least 6000 metres away from the blast, lest they be damaged by the blast.

Before December 2001, Tora Bora was an area rich in wildlife. It was, for example, home to huge flocks of the beautiful partridge, the chukor, native to that region.

After December 2001, nothing could be found alive there; not even beetles and lizards. So either Osama bin Laden was not in those caves and tunnels in December 2001, or, if he was, then he was killed then and there.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/osama-bin-laden-dead-or-alive/

Please do your research. Almost everyone here has given the thumbs down to anyone who actually has knowledge about this subject. You have to consider how bin Laden has been used against us psychologically.

And no, he never was on the FBI's Ten Most Wanted List for 9/11. The FBI, when asked about, this said they didn't have enough evidence against him. I have a screen shot of that in my binder about 9/11.

To the person who said that he wasn't on the list because 9/11 was somehow a foreign intelligence act-Then why was he on the list for the two African embassy bombings and the U.S.S. Cole bombing. That's just grasping at straws.
 
 
0 # SMoonz 2012-09-13 11:26
Big thumbs up on giving us the facts.
It's strange that you quote Global Research and you got thumbs down. Sometimes people don't want to look at the facts.
 
 
0 # flippancy 2012-09-14 07:26
And bunker buster bombs came after Tora Bora and were NOT used there. Besides, those caves extend below their effective killing depth.
 
 
+3 # karenvista 2012-09-14 14:47
Quoting flippancy:
And bunker buster bombs came after Tora Bora and were NOT used there. Besides, those caves extend below their effective killing depth.


You are talking out of your league. Depending on the exact model, bunker busters have been used in Afghanistan since the Russians were there.

The type referred to in the article I quoted above is the BLU-118/B Thermobaric Warhead. An air burst warhead relatively new at the time.

It was identified by Bob Baer and the intelligence specialists in the BBC discussion. If you don't know who Bob Baer is don't bother to comment.

If you do have actual knowledge, give us a link to the site where we can confirm your claim BLU-118/B Thermobaric Warhead could not reach the measured depth of the cave complex.
 
 
+2 # karenvista 2012-09-13 19:18
Thanks SMoonz. Apparently all the people screaming above for facts and links didn't really want them. They insist on remaining ignorant and retaining their rose-colored views.

So what make you folks different from the Fox viewers you revile?
 
 
0 # stonecutter 2012-09-13 23:30
R U suggesting via these posts and your briefing on bunker busters that the entire SEAL mission in Pakistan was military theater, not real at all? How do you arrive at your conclusion that more than half the U.S. Intel community believes OBL was killed back in 2001?
 
 
+3 # karenvista 2012-09-14 14:56
Quoting stonecutter:
R U suggesting via these posts and your briefing on bunker busters that the entire SEAL mission in Pakistan was military theater, not real at all? How do you arrive at your conclusion that more than half the U.S. Intel community believes OBL was killed back in 2001?


It could have been more clear but my post, after the introductory paragraph, was from the article about the BBC2 program.

The estimate of the number of intelligence agents believing that bin Laden was killed by the Thermobaric Bomb dropped at Tora Bora was from Bob Baer, the retired CIA agent.

Regarding your question about theater, if bin Laden died in the bombing, you're free to reach your own conclusion.
.
 
 
0 # stonecutter 2012-09-16 18:30
@ karenvista "The estimate of the number of intelligence agents believing that bin Laden was killed by the Thermobaric Bomb dropped at Tora Bora was from Bob Baer, the retired CIA agent."

I found a detailed article by Baer in Time.com dated 1/25/10,"Why OBL Isn't Worth Worrying About". No where in this substantive article does Baer ever mention that OBL may be dead as of 2001, only that he has become "irrelevant" to issues concerning global terrorism. This sounds vaguely familiar to George W. Bush's own lack of interest in OBL; perhaps it came from Baer and others of his opinion, but it seems strange that Baer would not at all refer to OBL's possible demise back in 2001, and indeed referred to him in this 2010 article as if he were actually alive. There's also absolutely no mention of this opinion about OBL's death in Baer's entire Wikipedia entry, which is extensive. There is mention, however, of his former belief that 9/11 could have very well been an "inside job", followed by his subsequent disclaimer that it was not.

You appear unwilling to assert your thinly veiled belief that OBL was indeed killed back in 2001, and therefore the 2011 SEAL raid was a colossal sham. As an Air Force veteran, I still believe in the honor and legitimacy of our elite special forces, and certainly not in the concerted effort on the part of the extreme right to diminish or deny every success of this administration, so I'll opt for the version confirmed by President Obama.
 
 
+3 # kenrogers 2012-09-14 00:24
Charles writes:
"(Let us be clear. I find liberal handwringing about the killing of bin Laden embarrassing. The man was responsible for at least three acts of war against the United States that we know of, one of which killed thousands of people at the time and is still killing people with diseases they contracted while sifting through the rubble of his greatest triumph."

In the first place, "When asked why there is no mention of 9/11 on the FBI's web page, Rex Tomb, the FBI's Chief of Investigative Publicity, is reported to have said, 'The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden's Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11', and in the second place, bin Laden explicitly denied having been involved in the planning or execution of the 9/11 attacks, so his assassination is AMPLE cause for hand-wringing, whether "liberal" or any other kind, on legal and ethical grounds.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13664.htm

Inasmuch as Charles also writes, "We should commit to knowing what we're talking about.", I hope he'll watch this short video, a link to which is: http://www.forbiddenknowledgetv.com/videos/911/bush-insider-says-911-was-an-inside-job.html
 
 
+2 # jerryball 2012-09-14 13:18
I sometimes wonder about some of my fellow Americans. Have they no thoughts of their own, and are nothing but thought puppets? Not that I'm in such a smart dude, sometimes I think weird things as truth, but I am cognizant when the truth is pointed out to me ... at least I think I can deduce the truth in an age of lies. To me the refusal to even try to find the truth is mystifying in the perplexing incrudulity of it all. Are these folks nuts, or just the 19th century hard-headedness that refuses to catch up with the times or pick up a book. It almost seems as if some Americans live in an alternate universe, very different from the one most of us live in, as I'm sure they probably think the same about my searching for truth, and settling for nothing but the truth, as (I hope) most of us do. This fellow wrote this article in Esquire Magazine about, among other things, the amnesia of Democrats about some of their immortalizingly implicity in dead-wrong decisions, and about the disinformation of the Republican Bubble. Enough blame for all. Now our war dead heroes, both on these soils and abroad, have become reduced to sorry political bile. Are we still in the wrong century, say a 16th Century think mode? Good article.
 
 
-1 # notsofreespirit 2012-09-16 11:57
Hey people wake up. When bin Laden was taken out Romney was a private citizen and had absolutely nothing to do with it. Charles Pierce, the writer of the article, wondered why they asked such a question. I wonder who came up with it and why it wasn't immediately knocked down. It has to be the most idiotic poll question of the year.
 

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