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Intro: "Last week, the order came down from the Vatican. The Leadership Conference of Women Religious (LCWR), an organization that represents 80% of the nuns in the US, was chastised for 'focusing its work too much on poverty and economic injustice, while keeping 'silent' on abortion and same-sex marriage.' The LCWR is having none of it."

Last week, the order came down from the Vatican. American nuns will have none of it. (photo: Addicting Info)
Last week, the order came down from the Vatican. American nuns will have none of it. (photo: Addicting Info)



American Nuns Reject Vatican's Orders

By Wendy Gittleson, Addicting Info

23 April 12

 

ast week, the order came down from the Vatican. The Leadership Conference of Women Religious (LCWR), an organization that represents 80% of the nuns in the US, was chastised for "focusing its work too much on poverty and economic injustice, while keeping ‘silent' on abortion and same-sex marriage." The LCWR is having none of it. In a statement Saturday, the LCWR said,

"We haven't violated any teaching," Sister Simone Campbell, executive director of Network, a Catholic social justice lobby, told AFP, insisting the group would not stop "caring for the least among us on the margins of society."

"It was a total shock for many reasons, no one talked to us" during the inquiry, Campbell said.

"We are a political, not doctrinal, organization: we don't teach theology."

After the report was published, Campbell said it was "painfully obvious" the Vatican leadership was "not used to having educated women form thoughtful opinions and engage in dialogue."

"We will keep doing our mission," she insisted in a phone interview Saturday, saying the group was founded to "lobby, organize and educate" in the name of social and economic justice.

"There seems to the major disconnect, where (the Vatican) seem to think that faith can only lead to one political approach," Campbell said. The Network group, she said, "speaks for our members, not for a church. Helping others is at the heart of our faith."

The Vatican is right in that the LCWR is a liberal organization. Their website addresses income inequality with documents like this, in support of the Occupy movement, or this, in support of families of immigrants. These sisters are free-thinking women, an idea that goes against the grain of the "modern" Catholic church, which refuses to budge from the 16th Century.

The nuns aren't alone in Catholics that are at odds with the Church hierarchy. The majority of American Catholics support same-sex marriage, a change from just two years ago. The church, however, is taking a very political stance against same-sex marriage.

In March, (Archbishop) Nienstedt was one of 13 bishops from Minnesota, North Dakota and South Dakota who met with Pope Benedict XVI to report on affairs in their diocese. According to The Catholic Spirit, "Archbishop Nienstedt told Pope Benedict that ‘all the bishops are resolved to take this opportunity that we have in the political area to catechize in the religious area, to catechize about the meaning and the sanctity of marriage.'

The Catholic church has also taken a strong political stance against the Affordable Healthcare Act (aka Obamacare) for its policy that all health insurance companies must cover hormonal contraception. The LCWR has come out in favor of the Affordable Healthcare Act, but not because of its contraception mandate, and only after being assured that abortions will not be covered. The group sees affordable healthcare as a necessary step in battling poverty. The nuns have been silent on issues of same-sex marriage and on birth control and that is where they have been at odds with the church.

 

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+121 # isafakir 2012-04-23 07:04
throughout john paul II's papacy mr ratzinger was against the worker, against the pooor and against minorities and an apologist for the 1%. he actively and aggressively protected pedophiles by attacking victims and by propagating homophobia instead of doing anything to target perpetrators. ratzinger actively attacked AIDS prevention again using homophobia as a weapon. The US bishops are part of a criminal association literally: the vatican bank engages in money laundering.
 
 
+22 # tswhiskers 2012-04-24 07:46
If you know much about Church history you know the Church has always about self-interest at the expense of moral behavior (of the Church) and the greater good.
 
 
+15 # JH Gordon 2012-04-24 20:22
Well, at the Vatican there are no angels, that's for sure. When nuns decide hunger takes precedence over sexual politics, it's to be commended. Is the church so weak that it must call upon these ladies to take sides in a fight they don't think worth their time? Are the men in the church so suspect in the area of sexual health that they need these ladies for credibility? Perhaps the nuns think those who allegedly don't, should keep their beaks out of the business of those who do.

Is it possible the nuns realize many of the hungry children they feed will someday come out of the closet? Do they realize that some of those same children may have been abused by members of their church? Perhaps they too are tired of the politics of sex and the manipulation of morality by the Vatican. Perhaps.

JH Gordon
Smashwords.com
 
 
-103 # penlou1 2012-04-23 07:35
They will huff and puff a bit and then do as they are told. It was ever thus in top down patriarchal medieval organizations. Women clean, clean up and shut up.
 
 
+22 # Texas Aggie 2012-04-24 05:54
One would hope that you are wrong. I suspect that these women have more intestinal fortitude than men would in a similar situation.
 
 
+93 # Merschrod 2012-04-23 07:47
It is a shame that the LCWR was not around in strength in the 1960s when so many dedicated man and woman friend felt that they had to leave the orders in order to serve the cause of the poor and justice as the Catholic church swung toward its conservative side.

Good for them taking a stand.

Kris
 
 
+107 # jack406 2012-04-23 08:00
The current Pope has a history of protecting Pedophiles in the church. You can't expect him to care about women's rights too. In the Catholic Church they have no rights.
Thank God for Nuns. They do more good for the world than the Pope!
 
 
+6 # nirmalandhas 2012-04-23 08:05
The problem is marriage...not sex, same or otherwise.
 
 
+67 # ThinkRodan 2012-04-23 08:12
With the CATHOLICS RECORD on pedophilia and Racism,the church has lost any legitimate excuse for its EXISTENCE! Who are they to suggest how ANYONE should believe or live!
 
 
+3 # penlou1 2012-04-23 13:56
The RCC record on practically everything is terrible. At this point I have no clue why anyone with a brain would give 2 dimes to this international terrorist organization
 
 
+27 # jbkenley 2012-04-23 08:28
It is again up to We The People, the lay to challenge the leadership to address todays people problems in todays world in words and deeds.
 
 
+77 # tswhiskers 2012-04-23 08:49
Sisters, thank you for your courage in standing up against the papacy. I am not Catholic but I have some idea of the historical power of the papacy in the course of Church history. I know that within the Church individuals have always accomplished more genuine good than all the hierarchy put together. Thank you again. God willing, you will inspire more people, lay and religious, to go against the political stances of the Church and continue their resistance to poverty and injustice as Jesus would have done.
 
 
+93 # Lolanne 2012-04-23 08:49
Way to go, Sisters! Please don't stop speaking truth to power -- they need to hear it, whether they want to or not. The male hierarchy of the church seems not to give a whit about the teachings of Jesus regarding caring for the poor and sick. Instead they'd rather take an unnatural interest in what everybody does in the bedroom. The direction the Catholic Church is taking these days is simply not relevant. They need to open their eyes and take a look at the real world if they want to remain viable at all.
 
 
-208 # american 2012-04-23 08:51
HOW DRA ETHEY ! THEY ALL NEED TO BE EXCOMMUNICATED. THESE DISOBEIENT ANTI AMERICAN ANTI CATHOLIC WOMEN HAVE NO PLACE IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH- IT IS NOT A POLITICAL AGENDA MACHINE. OUR CHURCH IS TO BE IN THE WORLD B UT NOT OF THE WORLD. IT IS A RELIGEOUS FOCUS- THE SUMMIT AND CENTER MUST BE GOD AND THE TRINITY AND NOT POLITICS AND FEMINISM THAT IS OUT AND OUT HERTICQL. THESE WOMEN ARE A COMPLETE DISGRACE TO THE CHIRCH AND TO THE TERM WOMEN. THEY MAKE REAL CATHOLICS SICK. THEY WERE THE DOWNFALL OF OUR CHURCH COMING APART IN THE 60;S - THEY TAUGHT OUR CHILDREN REBELLION AND DISRESPECT FOR OUR POPE CHURCH AND AUTHORITY. THEY ARE NOW ALSO BEING TREASONIST TRAITORS AND BETRAYERS OF OUR COUNTRY. HOW DARE THEY BREAK THE 10TH AMNEDMENT IN SUPPORTING CRIMINAL FEDRAL FELONILLEGALS THEY HAVE NO RIGHT TO HARM HURT AND HELP OBAMA DESTROY AMERICA. THEY MUST BE STOPPED ON ALL F4RONTS AND ALL ISSUES. THEY NEED TO BE THROWN OUT OF THEIR ORDERS- AND IF THE WHOLE ORDER IS REBELLIUOS IT NEEDS TO BE DISBANNED SURE HOPE OUR HOLY FATHER PUTS THESE REBELIOUS TRAITORS AND TREASONIST BETRAYERS IN SUPRESSION AND CHARGES THEM WITH THEIR CRIMES OF HERECY. THEY NEED TO BE REMOVED FROM THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH. ANDANY NUN WHO IS 'THE BRIDE OF CHRIST'EEDS TO BE IN HER HABIT AND ACT LIKE A NUN- NOT DRESS AND ACT LIKE NIGHT WALKER- WHO THE HELL CAN EVEN TEKLL A NUN THESE DAYS FROM A COMMONER ON THE STREET? WHERE DO THEY GET THE GALL? GOD WILL JUDGED BY GOD ON THEIR ACTIONS OF HERECY.
 
 
+95 # myungbluth 2012-04-23 10:39
I strongly disagree with everything you say. I hope that Jesus, in his mercy, will bless you with more tolerance for others and a better command of the English language and the fonts you use to express it. Peace be with you.
 
 
+48 # conniejo 2012-04-23 11:00
This is all tongue-in-cheek , right? Nobody could spout this idiotic, ignorant vitriol for real!
 
 
+22 # tclose 2012-04-23 19:57
Seems it's not. Somebody is indeed capable of this idiotic, ignorant vitriol in my reading of this.

Seems that the Catholic hierarchy says more or less the same thing.
 
 
+10 # Texas Aggie 2012-04-24 05:56
The same thought occurred to me. You can't have the mental ability to be able to use the internet and at the same time really believe that baloney.
 
 
+25 # pedxing 2012-04-23 11:20
Quoting american:
THAT IS OUT AND OUT HERTICQL.


Thanks for an informative post. I hope I can be as HERTICOL as these women.
 
 
-44 # Yachtsman 2012-04-23 12:58
You are so on point. Holy Scripture teaches Law AND Gospel. Without the law you cannot see your sin. If you don't feel you need to repent of your sins, you have no reason to believe the Gospel. Thus all the responses you are getting. We are in the world, but not of the world. I wonder how the nuns keep their tax exempt status as they clearly appear as a political organization not a religious one.
 
 
+12 # ER444 2012-04-23 23:38
Very good point. If you take it a step further assuming the Pope and he rest of his ilk are not ready to repent for the massive ill they have done to the entire world, I assume they will be soon burning in hell (assuming there is such a plece LOL), AND how is it that in a country where church and state are separated religious organizations are tax exempt. That is the first thing that needs to be changed!
 
 
-21 # Yachtsman 2012-04-24 09:54
I am not a Roman Catholic, but I feel it is safe to say that the church leadership has long ago ask for and received forgiveness for the sins of the past. Regarding the tax issue, it is precisely because of the separation of church and state that religious organizations are not to be taxed by the state. However, Pres. Obama really crossed the line of separation when he recently mandated that most all religious organizations must offer health care services to their employees that are in opposition to their religious beliefs (i.e., abortions, sterilizations and in the case of Roman Catholics, contraception). This is not going to stand without a fight. Church leaders, both Catholic and Protestant have said they will close their hospitals, social service organizations and schools before they will violate their religious beliefs. Imagine the impact on society if that were to occur.
 
 
+22 # ER444 2012-04-24 11:50
Dear Yachtsman, I am afraid you are grossly misinformed. What the Obama led government has legislated is that insurance companies, not religious organisations, pay for contraceptives. Neither abortions or sterilzations are part of this controversy.Ple ase do some research before you make such bogus statements.
 
 
-18 # Yachtsman 2012-04-24 18:29
Dear ER444 -- Please be assured that I am not misinformed and my statements are anything but bogus. I am deeply involved in this controversy and know the specifics of the mandate in great detail. I never said the religious organizations were being required to PAY for the medical treatment/medic ations involved. Being required to OFFER something to your employees that your religious beliefs indicate to be sinful is not ameliorated by someone else paying the bill. Furthermore, abortions ARE most certainly part of the controversy because ""morning after" pills and Ella ARE required to be provided by the mandate. My research started the day the mandate was published and then the so-called "accommodation" was made by Obama and subsequently rejected by church leaders, both Roman Catholic and Protestant. This mandate is a huge over reach by the federal government into the affairs of the church and is a gross violation of the first amendment which was passed specifically to prevent such a move by the government.
 
 
+9 # Anarchist 23 2012-04-25 15:33
I find war to be against my religious beliefs, also eating animals, despoiling the earth, polluting the skies, and many other things. I cannot impose those beliefs on you-why do you or some greater number of believers, have the right to impose your beliefs (abortion & birth control are wrong-war is just) on me? If you don't want birth control or abortion-don't have them-if you don't want to go to war-don't enlist or protest instead. War of course should be stopped but until Humanity as a whole does so, I have no answer what a person of such religious conscience should do.
 
 
-8 # Daniel1 2012-04-25 18:00
They dont. Has birth control gone away? Nope. Has War stopped? Nope. The whole point is these women joined the church of their own free will, so they now cannot whine and complain they dont like the rules. If they dont like the rules they agreed to live by, then quit!
 
 
+1 # Texas Aggie 2012-04-24 05:59
"If you don't feel you need to repent of your sins,"

then you just go to confession, do your hail mary's and go back to whatever is was that you were doing secure in the knowledge that your sins have been and will be forgiven.
 
 
-2 # Yachtsman 2012-04-24 10:02
Texas Aggie -- It would be great if it were that easy, but it isn't. Martin Luther, leader of the Reformation, had a word for that idea -- "Cheap Grace". True "confession" necessarily requires a bonafide attempt to change your ways. Without that attempt there is no sincerity and no forgiveness should be expected. Remember when Jesus advised the prostitute that her sins were forgiven, and that she should "go and sin no more".
 
 
+13 # Anarchist 23 2012-04-25 15:29
It seems that the men who make up the RCC are being far more political (and always have been) than the Nuns. Who is preaching from the pulpit about voting based on Catholic doctrine-some bishops preached against voting for John Kerry because he favored abortion. BTW-the 1st Amendment USED to guarantee us freedom from being dominated by any one religion. Looking at the War Against Women it is quite apparent those days are gone now- the Religions attacking birth control, pushing citizenship for fetuses-Ga.'s new law 'Women as Livestock' bill-we are living under what is increasingly a Fascist theocracy.
 
 
+10 # redjelly39 2012-04-23 19:41
Sorry but I cant take this post seriously when you are screaming and with such pathetic grammar.
 
 
+6 # ER444 2012-04-23 23:34
I can only assume this ranting is a farce, a jke. Bravo !!! You have made a wonderful point by showing how demented the view of the conservative ultra Catholic Church is. Great job, I give you a thumbs up.
 
 
-155 # american 2012-04-23 09:01
they are disobendient hertical treasonist betraying traitors to the church and america and need to be excommunicated and stripped of their citiiizenship. they are a disgrace to the curch and to america, choosing criminal federal felons illegals over americans is a crime-aiding and abetting them is a CRIME OF SUCH HENIOUSLY EVIL PORPTIOND. GIVING AWAY AMERICANS MONEY TO CRIMINAL FEDERAL FELON ILLEGALS IS HORRENDEOUSLY EVIL.BREAKING THEIR VOWS OF OBEDIENCE TO THE RELIGIOUS ORDER SN=AD TO GOD IS EVIL
 
 
+29 # conniejo 2012-04-23 11:02
Seriously? Have you read the Bible?
 
 
+10 # henry bruce 2012-04-24 10:23
It almost sounds like he is reading from the Bible. No book ever written depicts more violence and vile acts than the one that was written in the dark ages by men who thought the Earth was flat and the Sun rotated around the Earth.
 
 
+29 # erogers 2012-04-23 13:13
[quote name="american" ]they are disobendient hertical treasonist betraying traitors to the church and america and need to be excommunicated and stripped of their citiiizenship.>
Sounds like you would be quite happy if the church brought back the Medieval Inquisition, Roman Inquisition and Spanish Inquisition all rolled into one. Does not say much for your kind and loving God. I prefer the true work done by these brave women who have challenged Rome to walk the talk rather then sit in condemnation of others. I also ask the question have you not learned anything from the teachings of Christ.
 
 
+10 # davehaze 2012-04-23 18:26
Quoting american:
they are disobendient hertical treasonist betraying traitors to the church and america and need to be excommunicated and stripped of their citiiizenship. they are a disgrace to the curch and to america, choosing criminal federal felons illegals over americans is a crime-aiding and abetting them is a CRIME OF SUCH HENIOUSLY EVIL PORPTIOND. GIVING AWAY AMERICANS MONEY TO CRIMINAL FEDERAL FELON ILLEGALS IS HORRENDEOUSLY EVIL.BREAKING THEIR VOWS OF OBEDIENCE TO THE RELIGIOUS ORDER SN=AD TO GOD IS EVIL

"American" you're joking, right? It is funny, satire. You're NOT being satirical? You're serious? NOOOOO. You are very funny. Johnathan Swift. That's going to be your nickname, Swifty.
 
 
+11 # Anarchist 23 2012-04-25 15:35
Hello 'american'-we are a Secular nation-the real treason is that of those who seek to impose religious law on the nation in defiance to the Constitution.
 
 
+3 # Scott479 2012-04-26 07:26
Stay away from the edges of the flat land-you might fall off straight into hell.
 
 
0 # rockieball 2012-04-28 06:35
Quoting american:
they are disobendient hertical treasonist betraying traitors to the church and america and need to be excommunicated and stripped of their citiiizenship. they are a disgrace to the curch and to america, choosing criminal federal felons illegals over americans is a crime-aiding and abetting them is a CRIME OF SUCH HENIOUSLY EVIL PORPTIOND. GIVING AWAY AMERICANS MONEY TO CRIMINAL FEDERAL FELON ILLEGALS IS HORRENDEOUSLY EVIL.BREAKING THEIR VOWS OF OBEDIENCE TO THE RELIGIOUS ORDER SN=AD TO GOD IS EVIL


"AN INFINITE GOD OUGHT TO BE ABLE TO PROTECT HIMSELF, WITHOUT GOING INTO PARTNERSHIP WITH LEGISLATURES."
--ROBERT INGERSOLL
 
 
+36 # dick 2012-04-23 09:35
Looks like Hitler has yet ANOTHER Pope. And they have their psychotic barbarian worshippers, as indicated in Comments. Remember, many key nazis were sexual deviants, like the current pedophile cover-up SS that has enabled & empowered so much child abuse, sexual & otherwise. For decades, the abuse enabling denial & cover-up has involved very high level clerics. ANYTHING for the Reich, I mean, the Church. These are the guys who sneaked nazis war criminals out of Europe to Latin America also.
 
 
+65 # Regina 2012-04-23 10:11
I congratulate these American nuns for their courageous and principled response to their antediluvian self-ordained overlords. The women of the church may yet rescue their religion from the self-proclaimed male hierarchy. Jesus did not exercise such dominance over women that these good old boys think is their divine right.
 
 
+50 # readerz 2012-04-23 10:25
The church has always used its women religious as free teachers for the children rather than allow them to contemplate and write theological doctrine. Historically, American nuns were not offered prayer books, only Missals, and for prayers were told to just say the Rosary (instead of the daily Psalter-Hours). However, the schools have gotten better and better; some of those Catholic schools have helped poor neighborhoods when public funding for education has dried up, and these nuns have taken up their Cross in helping the poor... as the church commanded them to do (instead of allowing the nuns to say the Hours quietly to themselves), and now the church is... complaining? The nuns commonly were given a pittance to take public transportation in all weather (unlike the Priests or even monks), but the nuns dutifully waited out in the cold and snow so they could take care of poor children. I am horrified that these women have been told to change their agenda; what in the world does the Vatican think they will be able to do? Even if the Vatican thinks that anti-abortion and anti-gay promotion should be their first duty, how would they carry that out? Should they stop teaching school? With what money does the Vatican intend to carry out such negative campaigns? Are the nuns now supposed to preside over baby mills, selling babies for the highest cash bidders? Women religious must take a stand, and the LCWR is right.
 
 
+17 # readerz 2012-04-23 12:27
I forgot to add the most important point:
If they are supposed to be anti-abortion, won't there be many more poor children to take care of, and if the nuns are not allowed to take care of the poor, then what?

It is the Roman Catholic Church that encouraged abortion in the island of Sardinia where many children are born with thalassemia, a genetic blood disorder similar to sickle-cell anemia; they would test pregnant women for this condition and strongly encourage abortion if the fetus had the condition; paid for by the church. Things change when they foot the bill; the holier-than-tho u attitude is a right-wing attack on America, nothing to do with being religious.
 
 
+23 # capnDave 2012-04-23 10:57
GO NUNS ! I am surprised no one has brought up the century
old issue of celibacy to deny wives any claim to the Vatican
wealth. All the anti-comments sound like Borowitz Reports.
 
 
+36 # Trish42 2012-04-23 12:32
Jesus would have been a lot prouder of the nuns than the pope or bishops. The nuns seem to understand real Christianity a hell of a lot better!
 
 
-5 # joniev 2012-04-23 13:51
What you quote from the LCWR doesn't seem a "statement" to me. It seems, rather, a loose set of comments by sister Simone Campbell, who speaks presumably not for the whole LCWR but for Network. Source? This is badly reported and it does not serve the cause of accuracy or dialogue.
 
 
+21 # Sophie 2012-04-23 15:26
"The group sees affordable healthcare as a necessary step in battling poverty. The nuns have been silent on issues of same-sex marriage and on birth control and that is where they have been at odds with the church."
The Catholic church has mandated for centuries, that women have child after child--their collective health and well being be damned.
Without contraception and abortion care, women cannot control what happens to their own bodies, and cannot be autonomous human beings--the nuns are hardly radical--only by their masters' patriarchal misogynistic, and hypocritical "standards."
 
 
+9 # henry bruce 2012-04-23 15:30
No sheep.....No shepherds.
 
 
+14 # Listner 2012-04-23 15:56
It seems to me that a church , any church , that goes forward with the same guidelines that were setforth hundreds of years ago is bound to recieve louder and louder opposition.Soci ety is changing its views on sex and marriage and while nobody expects the church to change overnight , it must serve the community. These nuns were simply following the greater message and I would support them. The Catholic Church has some "soul searching" to do , and I think they should do so sooner rather than later.
 
 
+17 # RMDC 2012-04-23 17:31
The papacy and expecially Pope Ratzinger have absolutely no credibilitiy on these issues. It was Ratzinger who crushed the liberation theology movement in Latin America and ordered the murder of Archbishop Oscar Romero in San Salvador.

And it was Ratzinger who covered up sexual predators in the church hierarchy.

Why would anyone listen to a thing he says? The nuns are right. I hope they keep going on. They are the real church.,
 
 
+6 # penlou1 2012-04-23 19:20
Yes and it was the Vatican yrs ago who provided the seed $$ to fund all the anti choice violence in this country - think about it - in the 70's a few weird evangelicals did not nearly have the funds to open camps and networks and bus people all over - it was the then pope - and as such they are guilty of the murders of all the people here blown up, shot etc - evil - if these women do wish to do good they best get the heck out of this so called church
 
 
+14 # davehaze 2012-04-23 18:05
Jesus -- as far as I've heard -- never said much about sex, nothing about abortion nor contraception (Yes, Rick, there has always been abortion and contraception since men have been upper-body-stre ngth idiots who have used religion to control women, that is since time immemorial: Yes, dear, I may be an ugly idiot but if you don't have my baby you'll go to hell.) but commanded his followers to help and revere the lowly poor no differently than they revere Him. )

Never happened. Except for exceptions the Christian and Catholic churches have totally ignored Christ's message. You could say that Christ has been something of an embarrassment -- like these nuns who it seems refused to be f---ed with.
 
 
+10 # Texas Aggie 2012-04-24 06:06
Ratzinger was head of the organization that instituted the Inquisition these many years ago. I suspect that he regrets that he isn't allowed to use the same techniques that his forebears used and that he would gladly use some of them on these impertinent nuns if he thought he could get away with it.
 
 
-20 # Daniel1 2012-04-24 07:17
Sorry no, THEY joined the Church and agreed to abide by it's teachings. Now they say they dont wanna? Either you abide by the rules of the organization you freely joined, or leave. There is no other options. They dont have to change because you dont like their rules.
 
 
-12 # Yachtsman 2012-04-24 10:12
Daniel 1 -- You are exactly correct. It constantly amazes me when someone wants to be in an organization, and then thinks the organization should change to suit their views. This is essentially what Martin Luther did when he tried to reform the Roman Catholic Church of the practice of selling indulgences as a way to have sins forgiven. Although their was no scriptural support for such a practice, the church leadership would not change their practice, and he was forced to leave the church -- thus the start of the Reformation and the founding of the Protestant churches.
 
 
+17 # Maxwell 2012-04-24 17:07
Quoting Yachtsman:
Daniel 1 -- You are exactly correct. It constantly amazes me when someone wants to be in an organization, and then thinks the organization should change to suit their views. This is essentially what Martin Luther did when he tried to reform the Roman Catholic Church of the practice of selling indulgences as a way to have sins forgiven. Although their was no scriptural support for such a practice, the church leadership would not change their practice, and he was forced to leave the church -- thus the start of the Reformation and the founding of the Protestant churches.

Well Daniel1 and Yachtsman, there are lots of other options than abiding by the rules or leaving the organization. Yacht's Martin Luther example actually makes a point opposite of what he intended. Luther was not trying to start a new church to oppose Rome. His era was called The Reformation because he (and others before and after him) were trying to REFORM The Church. They were doing that because they felt The Church had strayed from true Biblical Christianity and needed to be led back. They felt that The Church had to stop being the dictatorial mouthpiece of the privileged classes and return to its mission of showing God's love to the world through its actions. (Sound like anything that's going on today?)

These courageous nuns are the Reformers of our era. They are risking everything to speak truth to power in the name of God, justice, and love.
 
 
-7 # Daniel1 2012-04-25 18:16
They are not reformers, they are whiners. Show me in the Bible where it states that women can be priests? You do and I will gladly back them. But as long as they claim to be nuns of the catholic church, they MUST abide by its teachings. They dont want to do this anymore, they are free to leave and start their own church. You just cannot join a religion and then expect it to change to suit you. Either join and follow or dont join, there is no other option. As I said before they are always able to leave. Here is a very good example. K.D.Lang She wanted to sing Country Music. She had a good voice and was accepted by the Country Music Association and was on the fast track to be accepted at the Grand Old Opry, a very high honer in country music. Then she messed herself up. She started demanding that they announce her as the only "Gay" Country Star and that they have a room for her girlfriend at every stop while she was on tour and other demands. The CMA took this for a bit, but the last straw was when she demanded a large tour bus so she could take her girlfriend with her and starting sexually harrassing the wife of a record producer, seems she could not take no for an answer. The CMA then showed Ms Lang the door and told her not to let it hit her on the way out. Same thing here, the nuns MUST remember THEY joined the church, the church did not join them. As such they abide by its teachings or leave.
 
 
+8 # kyzipster 2012-04-25 15:42
It's obvious that they put more weight into their relationship with their higher power than to orders from the man-made organization they belong to.

The world would be a better place if more people were driven by a higher moral standard than by fear. The Catholic Church just might survive the 21st century if more people stand up to the ignorance like these nuns.
 
 
+7 # rockieball 2012-04-24 10:44
HEY POPE!!!! You're nuns are women also.
OH!! By the way why is it that Vatican City has an age of consent of 12? The lowest of any European country.
 
 
+2 # Innocent Victim 2012-04-26 07:54
Gosh! I did not know that! You write 12 years old is OK for sex in Vatican City? Shouldn't a condom be used to prevent pregnancy for a girl that age? Carrying to term might be dangerous for her!

I hope that Bill Clinton and Newt Gingrich don't find out about this!
 
 
0 # rockieball 2012-04-28 06:38
I searched for age of consent in Europe and then the world. Got a long list and some very interesting results. Spain it's 13, some are at 14 most at 16. But Vatican City was the lowest at 12. Now I know why they think nothing about using the altar boys.
 
 
+12 # Ritz 2012-04-24 11:14
No, Daniel, you join organizations and participate in them and then, you are entitled to advocate change. I presume you are a U. S. citizen? Then, do you not exercise your right to vote? Nuns taught me that Catholics especially have a duty to treat others as Jesus would. That means, helping people who need it . Semms these nuns are practicing what they preach. Furthermore, Jesus taught "judge not, lest you be judged.". And to "american,". Really? Have you seen a doctor lately? Perhaps, that would be a good move.
 
 
-5 # Daniel1 2012-04-25 18:19
Nope, you join, you agree to the rules OF the organization. You dont want to follow the rules, then YOU leave as the organization got along fine without you before and will get along fine without you after you leave. And no matter how you try and spin it, there is no other way. You dont like the rules then you are free to start your own group with the rules you like.
 
 
+8 # billkerr@verizon.net 2012-04-24 13:20
The Vatican only thinks they can control how people think, feel and take action. They used to be among the most educated but now are not but they do not realize that they can no longer control the world in the name of Jesus who would never damn those that deviate from Vatican teachings.
 
 
+13 # river turtle 2012-04-24 18:15
I love it when good women stand their ground! Makes me proud to be among them. Each of us need search our hearts and work for the greater good of humankind.
 
 
+10 # WestWinds 2012-04-24 19:29
I have to join "Holyone" and say, "Bravo, ladies!" You are standing up for the correct things. Don't back down and don't give in to the slipping and sliding of those who set aside His word for worldly gain!
 
 
+4 # kyzipster 2012-04-25 15:37
"The majority of American Catholics support same-sex marriage"

The closeted, all male, church hierarchy clinging desperately to their bigotry while it looks like the majority of Catholics are ready to move on. I'm sure the majority support the equal treatment of women also. Twisted.
 
 
+3 # bsmith 2012-04-25 21:24
american/Daniel1/Yachtsman,

You three epitomize why the churches in our country are loosing parishioners/re levance at an ever quickening pace. Please, keep up the good work. It is much appreciated!

I would be much more inclined to have respect for organized religion in our country if they were represented by people with the same convictions as the women in this story. Bless them all!
 
 
-5 # Innocent Victim 2012-04-26 07:47
I think nuns should be permitted to have sex with each other, other women or with men. They should not, however, be permitted to have sex with priests until the Church allows women to become priests. Then, everyone may have sex, except the Pope. He should set an example of suffering for the sins of humankind, as did the mythological Jesus.
 
 
0 # rockieball 2012-04-28 06:45
Their was a time when parish Priest were allowed to get married and have children. You had to be celibate if you were a monk in a monetary as Bishop, Cardinal or Pope.
Usually these positions were filled by older men who's children were grown, wife passed away and they were getting old. Sort of like a retirement home. for Nuns it was the same way. One became a nun if their husband had died and they had no means of support or a way to make a living. A sort of woman's retirement home. I think that all changed in the late 16th century with the Catholic Church.
 
 
+1 # Grumbler 2012-04-26 14:22
Spain has the lowest age of consent in Europe, age 13. About the Vatican (from Wikipedia): "The Vatican does not have its own separate criminal code. Instead, in matters of criminal law, as per Article 3 of the "Law of the Source of Law" (one of the six fundamental laws adopted upon ratification of the Lateran Treaty in 1929) the Vatican State generally uses current Italian national law, as well as regional and municipal laws for Rome, as long as they do not conflict with ecclesiastical law or laws specifically promulgated by Pope for the Vatican.[81] As a result, the age of consent is 14, the same as Italy's. Before 1 January 2009, the adoption by the Vatican of changes made by Italy in its laws was automatic. After this date, the Vatican adoption of changes in Italian law is no longer automatic but comes into effect only after a review.[82] However, as Italy adopted its present age of consent before 1 January 2009, this change in Vatican policy does not affect the age of consent in Vatican City, which remains the same as Italy's."
 
 
+1 # Grumbler 2012-04-26 14:27
I think readers misunderstood what joaniev was writing. She merely stated the fact that Sr. Simone Campbell, was speaking for her own organization, Network, (she is its executive director), which does indeed have a stated political agenda: to lobby, organize, and educate, and not for the Leadership Conference of Women Religions (LCWR), whose purpose is to promote the spiritual and religious life (vocations) among its members and prospective members. The LCWR is dealing with a decline in members and resources and seeking to discern God's will for their future works of mercy and charity. The two groups are entirely different in their focus and objectives, but naturally have some overlapping interests.
For more information on the LCWR, check out http://ncronline.org/node/29998 (and no, I am not a Roman Catholic).
 
 
0 # Grumbler 2012-04-26 14:54
Dear Danie11 and Yachtsman,
You sound like a couple of really angry ultra-conservat ive Catholics with I would guess no formal religious education past your confirmation class, if that. As such, you see things as black or white.
It is correct to say the Bible does not say a woman can be a priest. The ONLY references to priests in the New Testament are to Jewish priests of the Temple in Jerusalem and to pagan priests. There is no reference to anyone like a Catholic priest. So, I say to you, "Show me in the Bible where it says a man can be a Catholic/Christ ian priest." This is why it might have been helpful for your parents to insist you continue to study theology past the sixth grade. You both have a child's understanding, attempting to deal with adult issues in a church that is at once fascinating and frustrating. No wonder you're both so angry! May I humbly suggest you talk to a sympathetic and very patient nun or priest (or minister) for a better understanding of the many complicated issues facing Roman Catholics and other Christians in the modern world. My words may anger you, but please try to receive them in the spirit I offer them. My good thoughts, wishes, and prayers are with you.
By the way, St. Paul, an Orthodox Jew, a Pharisee, found it impossible to follow all the requirements of the Levitical Code (The Law). And Jesus, who came to fulfill the Law, asked us only to love God and each other. That's a great place to start.
 
 
+1 # Daniel1 2012-04-26 20:29
Oh how I love how people make snap judgements about you like Grumbler has done about me. I have repeatedly stated I am an independent voter and have been for over 35 years. Guess that blows your first claim out of the water. I am not and never have been a catholic, that destroys your second claim. Thirdly I had a three fold major in College (1. Law-2.History-3 .Religious Studies and I hold a Masters Degree in each one from Ohio State University), that blows your third claim out of the water. 4th Grumbler, since I first made the statement and you disputed it, then YOU have to prove me wrong, not the other way around. See that is how debating goes. And since I completely destroyed your whole statement in less then 4 minutes, that must mean that it was not one that was very well put together so may I suggest that you take your own advice? Please feel free to come back and correct me if and when you can but to be honest, I wont hold my breath for this happening as what I stated is based on fact. What you have stated is based on belief. Major difference. And again, nobody forced these nuns to join this church and as such didnt they swear to uphold the teachings of the church when they joined and to obey the rules from the Holy See? So if they are now not obeying the rules they freely agreed to, they now have broken their vows and as such have no authority in the church any longer. Game set and match. I win.
 
 
0 # Yachtsman 2012-05-01 11:56
Grumbler, I will say it for the second time-- for your edification, I am not a Roman Catholic, in addition, I am certainly not angry, and my theological studies go well past the sixth grade. Why do arguments of your type always end up attacking the person instead of trying to change one's opinion by stating relevant truths? Paul the Apostle in 2 Timothy warned how the time would come when people will not endure sound teaching and have "itching" ears to find teachers to suit their own sinfull passions. That's exactly what these nuns are doing and they are leading others down this dangerous path as well. We should ask for mercy on them.
 
 
+2 # jpgarcesv 2012-04-28 16:07
Well, fortunately the good nuns don't decide what is morally right or wrong.
And unfortunately, by rebelling against the Holy See ("the Vatican" as you call it) they voluntarily put themselves out of the Church, such that they cannot call themselves Catholic anymore, because they are not in communion with the Church. Or at least they must admit that what they uphold as valid and true is not part of the Catholic doctrine.
Moral truths are not decided by majorities, as you seem to suggest in this article, even if those majorities amounted to 100%.
 
 
-1 # tanaracguy 2012-05-28 06:02
Bravo to these womderful women. For years they have been second hand citizens.....ke ep the faith and follow your kind hearts.....
 

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