Excerpt: "The sweeping report issued on Tuesday by an 11-member task force convened by the Constitution Project...provides a valuable, even necessary reckoning."
A detainee interrogation room in Camp V is shown at Guantanamo Bay Naval Base, Cuba. (photo: Haraz Ghanbari/AP)
Indisputable Torture
17 April 13
�
dozen years after the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, an independent, nonpartisan panel's examination of the interrogation and detention programs carried out in their aftermath by the Bush administration may seem to be musty old business. But the sweeping report issued on Tuesday by an 11-member task force convened by the Constitution Project, a legal research and advocacy group, provides a valuable, even necessary reckoning.
The work of the task force, led by two former congressmen - Asa Hutchinson, a Republican, who served in the Bush administration as under secretary of the Department of Homeland Security, and James Jones, a Democrat, who was an ambassador to Mexico during the Clinton years - is informed by interviews with dozens of former American and foreign officials, as well as with former prisoners.
It is the fullest independent effort so far to assess the treatment of detainees at Guant�namo Bay, in Afghanistan and Iraq, and at the C.I.A.'s secret prisons. Those who sanctioned the use of brutal methods, like former Vice President Dick Cheney, will continue to defend their use. But the report's authoritative conclusion that "the United States engaged in the practice of torture" is impossible to dismiss by a public that needs to know what was committed in the nation's name.
The report found that those methods violated international legal obligations with "no firm or persuasive evidence" that they produced valuable information that could not have been obtained by other means. This blunt language should help end a corrosive debate that has broken down on largely partisan lines.
Reaching a stronger national consensus on the issue of torture is crucial because, as the report says, "as long as the debate continues, so too does the possibility that the United states could again engage in torture." The task force found that using torture - like waterboarding, slamming prisoners into walls, and chaining them in uncomfortable stress position for hours - had "no justification" and "damaged the standing of our nation, reduced our capacity to convey moral censure when necessary and potentially increased the danger to U.S. military personnel taken captive." And in engineering "enforced disappearances" and secret detentions, the United States violated its international treaty obligations. A detailed 22-page appendix cites dozens of legal cases in which the United States prosecuted similar treatment or denounced it as torture when carried out by other countries.
Brutality is not uncommon in warfare. But, as the panel notes, there never was before "the kind of considered and detailed discussions that occurred after 9/11 directly involving a president and his top advisers on the wisdom, propriety and legality of inflicting pain and torment on some detainees in our custody."
The panel further details the ethical lapses of government lawyers in the Bush years who served up "acrobatic" advice to justify brutal interrogations, and of medical professionals who helped oversee them. It is also rightly critical of the Obama administration's use of expansive claims of secrecy to keep the details of rendition and torture from becoming public and to block victims' lawsuits.
The report's appearance all these years later is a reminder of the lost opportunity for a full accounting in 2009 when President Obama chose not to support a national commission to investigate the post-9/11 detention and interrogation programs. At that time, Mr. Obama said he wanted to "look forward, not backward." But identifying past mistakes so they can be avoided is central to looking forward. The Constitution Project's effort is a good step in that direction. But the portrait of what happened is still incomplete. For starters, a separate 6,000-page report by the Senate Intelligence Committee, based on Central Intelligence Agency records, has yet to be declassified and made public. The next step should be its release. There is no excuse for further delay.
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I didn't always think that, but it is becoming difficult to hold any other opinion given his ranting of the past months.
I haven't heard a president who didn't repeat 'boldface lies'.
Tyranny would be overthrowing the will of the states due to an infantile snit of not liking the candidate.
RSN is so busy spinning these propaganda pieces out it's a miracle they aren't suffering ear crystal vertigo.
Sad.
Anyone who fails to recognize that Trump is an accomplished con man is a dunderheaded nincompoop if one is to be kind about them.
The provisional ballot boxes have been fuller than we had ever seen before in both the Primary and General Election, and incredibly, Steve Stokes who was on the ballot was told he wasn't registered as a Democrat (kind of impossible if you are on the ballot).
Kansas Secretary of State Kris Kobach's Cross Check lists deserve a federal investigation to explain how hundreds of thousands can be effectively prevented from voting in the name of preventing impersonation fraud when they can't even get one person on the list convicted of any crime.
Kobach should be fined and jailed the same amount of time (5 years) for every legitimate voter his lists prevented from voting, as anyone who actually did commit the fraud he claims to be trying to prevent.
Voting is not supposed to be an obstacle course.
Try to prove even one of those accusations. That certainly wasn't the case with my son (a PhD), or Steve Stokes who was told he wasn't registered despite being listed as a candidate on the ballot.
Where did you get such ideas? Seems the fake news purveyors have PO'd the Pope who warns against carelessly consuming what Harry Truman called ****-manure (when Bess was asked if she could get him to quit using "manure," she told the society lady it was hard enough to get him to use "manure"). See Pope Francis' higher class wording of an even more disgusting practice at http://www.newsweek.com/pope-francis-compares-consumption-fake-news-eating-feces-529550
If you have done all of that, you should be on the list at your polling place. If not, you essentially confirm that all the information you provide for that ballot is correct (you can even vote in a different precinct or turn in your mail in ballot, which can also be accepted as is or changed on a new provisional ballot.
Since there have been so few voter impersonation prosecutions (something like 31 in 14 years and over a billion ballots), California does not require the photo ID they demand in states where they suppress the vote by every means possible (something that should be prosecuted for every legitimate voter denied their vote through such surgically precise, or not, attempts to discourage, prevent, or not count their vote).
P.S. The C.P (Pope's term) about dead voters being listed, always happens since people do die between elections, and sometimes aren't removed until after the last election they didn't vote in (since we reverify if we ever miss an election no matter how minor). If you think someone votes in place of a deceased person on the roll, please provide even one example of someone risking the jail time and fine for doing so (other than a couple of Republicans who were actually convicted of doing so).
This is why I can't get behind Bernie any longer, he's suddenly become a Democrat. This will kill his 'Our Revolution' movement. He should get as far away from that party as he can. Join the Greens. Start a new Pirate party, an Our Revolution party, whatever, just get away from the Schumer's and Pelosi's and Obama and all of those other worn out old Democrats.
Like Reich.
So all of you suckers thinking that the Democrats will fight for progressive policies are screwed.
W was wrong, you can get fooled again. In the case of Democrats over and over and over again.
Fools!
Now me? I'm a pussycat!
As for you, RAA, you wouldn't know a voice of reason if it bit you in the arse
elections voter fraud is not the problem, ballot counting and reporting is the real issue. Some 25% of votes cast are on non-traceable electronic devices with no paper trail. Where there are paper ballots they are often not counted; only the faulty/hackable results from electronic counters are reported. But Reich does not mention these very real issues nor does he mention the elephant in the room. In the general election we are led to believe we are voting for a president but we are are not. The constitution does not convey the right for citizens to elect a president. We are voting for a group of electors that we do not even know, not a president.
I think someone is also mixing up Voter fraud with election fraud. There's LOTS of election fraud, but very little voter or voting fraud. What would be the point?
Voter suppression in the name of combating vote fraud, is a fraud upon Democracy. That's what those Republican legislatures, with the help of ALEC has been doing for years.
I could go on.
Nah, you are always aware of every act taken by every GOP laden legislature and it is always as pure as the driven snow and in no way shape or form malevolent.
BTW why did you fail in that old school?
I always wonder when reading posts such as yours, if it is just another case of internet bravado, and that deep down there is a self-realizatio n of the pretty intense rationalization s that must be made to defend statements such as those made in your post.
I'm going to assume that you know people in your community that are 'exceptions' to the way your posts would explain your positions and opinions to be about racism, etc.
That being said, it is very easy to allow oneself to let go and just say "screw it". If [insert group here] would just [insert action here] then [group] wouldn't be in [insert position here]. Especially on the internet, where it is very easy to say whatever, whenever, and it can appear that EVERYONE thinks the same thing as you, thereby allowing one to believe their assertions are correct.
However, our gut knows the truth - every time.
1.Gerrymanderin g districts.
2.PHoto IDs that are difficult to obtain by poor folk and black folk.
3. Reducing polling places in poor and black areas.
4. Reducing hours for voting.
5. Impeding and intimidating voters by "neutral" poll observers that only challenge Democratic voters.
That's a few, when you have explained these away, I'll have more.
7. Promoting the use of hackable and often unreliable electronic voting machines.
8. Obstructing the count of ALL votes, including provisional votes.
9. Obstructing early voting, voting holidays and easier registration.
10. After imposing voter IDs, reducing the number of places they can be obtained.
11. Purposefully disseminating misinformation about voting places and times.
12. Conducting last-minute outrageous-lie robo call campaigns.
Take another year off and check that list he sent you. But don't expect to have any more puppy-headed buddies then.
Around here we usually have human brains.
2)how does the color of your skin make it more difficult to get an ID, you can get one at the DMV for free in most states.
3)Election Commission, not Republicans.
4)Applies to Democrats and Republicans, so explain how it only effect Democrats.
5)Poll observers are part of the law, stops fraud. The only real documented voter intimidation in recent years that I remember was the Black Panthers in Philly patrolling the poling locations with clubs in 2008. But they were trying to suppress the Republican vote.
LOTS OF PEOPLE SAY HOW IT IS DONE. YOU MAY BE A LITTLE BIT TOO DENSE OR UNPRACTICED TO UNDERSTAND IT. Be honest. Consider it possible.
It seems incredible to me that you can somehow claim "no one can say how these votes are suppressed. Besides the appeals court describing North Carolina's "surgically precise" targeting of Black voter for suppression (at http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/court-north-carolina-voter-id-law-targeted-black-voters/), see
Greg Palast's "The Best Democracy Money Can But" says (and shows) how votes are suppressed by things like Kansas Secretary of State Kris Kobach's notoriously incompetent and corrupt Cross Check Lists.
Careful! If you're going to criticize people's use of pronouns, make sure your own subjects and verbs agree!
Also, one human's snit is another's insight.
Cheers!
Lately he chooses to ignore the fact, as do many others, that there is no evidence the Russians have affected our election.
Please tell me where I said the RW is scum. Or where I said 'so is everyone else'. Why are you making things up out of thin air? How very freeing that must be.
Since neither of your 'quotes' of me resemble, in any way, anything I have EVER believed in my entire life, I doubt I said them. But please, enlighten me. What AM I thinking?
And your fascinating conclusion .. that 'scumhood' (delightful!) is my 'sole national tenet of faith'. What a remarkable phrase! How I wonder at your capture of my true nature .. amazing! Are you available for children's parties?
'Sole national tenet of faith', eh? Please, tell me what it means.
That anyone would upvote that drivel is a testament to the failure of your parents and our schools! hahahaha lolololol
Put your raincoat on and safety glasses, someone left the basement door unlocked and kalpal is on the loose again. :-)
PS. It appears the censors have been at work on the MM thread. Limited speech ok...for the present.
I know there are plenty of good people on every side and all around US, but we are purposely divided.
Cheers, D -- and Merry Christmas!
(See, liberals can say it too :-)
let them see if they can take her even to court, first. All those genius RW lawyers on their Koch meal ticket, and NONE of them even want to enter a spelling bee against HER.
She wouldn't take THEIR pardon anyway.
GFY, RW.
i seem to recall that she took in lots of money from other nations and didn't pay any taxes?
Depressionborn, as a true leftie, and speaking on my own behalf, may I apologize to you and other conservatives for the insults and hysteria.
You guys were really mature when Obama was re-elected, and we are not measuring up. I disagree with you on many issues but we both love America and want it to be better, and we should all want a fair fight and a civil finish. The Dems have behaved abominably, and I am sorry.
It suggests people who are spoiled and unused to any setback. How nice for them. I think you will find many other Dems, quieter Dems, who are not hysterical.
Youth I wll defend because they are young and I remember being young :-) but US elders should be setting a better example, teaching the young to lose graciously and pick their fights.
I am much more upset that Pelosi and Schumer grabbed power. Dems should clean their own house -- and battle the GOP on issues -- where I think we can win :-)
Peace, comrade, and Merry Christmas
The truth hurts and you can't avoid it forever. Calling someone an idiot doesn't make him one. It's just using Trump tactics to try to discredit someone by calling him names.
Have you repented or are you missing the mote in ur own I?
Hey I don't think I've seen you above 200 before .. congrats!
Tomorrow it will all be over .. and then the press will give US another bright shiny object to chase.
"The will of the states"? How about the will of the people?
My point is that there is a national anger simmering just under the surface of the US populace ready to pop-up and wreak havoc on anybody or anything handy, even if they have done nothing but be in the wrong place at explosion time, whatever the means happens to be at hand.
The gun ownership quotient is not so peripheral -and the anger continues to build-up.
Possibly that's why the same disillusion demographic voted for Drumpf will most likely be hurt by him!
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2015/05/21/big-dangers-next-election/
I believe it's the same for police deaths -- a recent uptick still has PO deaths at nearly historically low numbers.
So, knowing that, perhaps you should be wondering WHO is trying to scare YOU, and WHY.
'They' are doing it to all of US but use different tools for conservatives and liberals. That reminds me of an urban myth sort of shared with my first husband. I was driving and there was a paper bag in the middle of the road, and he said, 'Don't run over that, it could be booby trapped!' -- while I had heard you should never drive over a paper bag because it might have kittens in it!
I've also heard that while the number of guns owned has gone up, the number of gun owners has decreased by almost a third, so fewer people have more guns.
Hey, kind of like our money!
And RSN is not busy "spinning these propaganda pieces" in the four words used by dbrize. Rather, dbrize is "spinning propaganda posts."
Not very witty or shrewd, deplorables like mashiguo and dbrize will think, if in fact they do think. And they will be right about something for the first time today or any day.
"Throwing the accusation back" is what deplorables characteristica lly do. Does anyone need evidence?
Despite my lack of wit, so imitatively characteristic of the deplorables, I still am telling some truth here-- something that mishiguo and dbrize care nothing about, if in fact they are capable of caring. Better to try for truth than be a propagandist and __ _____.
And here I've been proposing folks purchase some of your writing endeavors as eminently readable.
Oh well, I am as you say, "not witty" enough nor am I interested in an exchange of ah, witticisms with you, so I'll leave you with a definition of "propaganda" with which you may or not agree:
propaganda; information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc.
This would appear to encompass much of what we are presented on these august pages. But hey, what do we "deplorables" know? Fortunately we have you to arbitrate and define the "truth".
BTW, I still recommend some of your published works. See, I'm not one of those who threaten to remove their advertising merely because you expressed an opinion with which I disagree.
Ol' kalpal comes up from the basement.
Your problem with definitions doesn't surprise me at all. Mr Escher OTOH, oft critical of others who misconstrue words, disappoints.
TIme to resign, move on, let progressives take the reins. We need people committed to issues, not lining their pockets and shilling for people like Hillary Clinton.
There are plenty of white working class voters in urban areas, 'former factory workers'.
If anyone thinks a Democratic Socialist from Vermont will win over the pickup truck crowd vote easily, they're out of touch imo.
Why did Trump lose the urban vote and the popular vote?
I'm not a fan of the DNC but we really need to understand the divisions in this country. They existed before Hillary 'lost' the working class vote and before Trump supposedly won them over. It's mostly tribal and it will remain that way for some time.
The 'pickup truck crowd' already spoke very clearly that they preferred Bernie over Hillary among Democrats and Independents. FACT. There was also support among Republicans in this crowd for Bernie against Trump.
Okay, can we now put that propaganda to rest?
Democrats should have a truth team that gives a press release listing & rebutting his lies daily or weekly.
It is time to let Liz Warren, Bernie, Keith Ellison, Barbara Lee & other progressives take the lead because they care about what the people want & need, they're inspirational leaders. They can re-engage millennials, women, minorities, & even disillusioned Trump voters in speaking out for what's right & winning future elections.
Do you hear any Dem ever talk about tackling election fraud? Did they get more machines? Are they fighting for transparency in the software? Do they try to get the rolls unpurged? They never talk about this. They never do anything about it. Why not?
So let's assume the GOP has been cheating since 2000. That means they cheated against O too -- but he got so many votes he overcame the cheats. Enter Hillary, running against the greatest buffoon in modern history, with. billion dollars in her coffers and the collusion of the press -- and she still couldn't win.
Now she and Podesta are blaming Comey and Russians, while Schumer and Pelosi slink into leadership positions.
Why would you think she'd win by 'large margins'? For months she polled within the margin of error with Trump.
As far as fixing the cheating, it seems like we where all asleep, and even now people seem to be in denial as they pretend that there was no cheating and blame the results on Hillary.
It's strange that you say the media colluded with Hillary when they gave trump nonstop coverage worth hundreds of billions of dollars. It is not now about Hillary, it is about our democracy lost to the republican cheating who will now be in total control and will make voting and election laws that will make it nearly impossible for a Democrat to win.
And again I'll ask -- why hasn't the DP made ONE move to fix ANY of this? There have been many of us advocating for these changes for years and contacting our representatives frequently -- thay are not unaware of the problems -- and there have been times when Dems had the power to effect change but they have not tried -- and I'll bet you a cup of quinoa no one will try after this either. Have you noticed NOT ONE msm outlet or pol has mentioned the obvious, easy fix -- hand counted paper ballots?
Yes there was cheating but Clinton was the problem too. Listen to focus groups and interviews. 225 counties voted for O twice but flipped to Trump and many of those people say 'I could not vote for Hillary Clinton' -- and I agree with them. I've been a good soldier and voted LOTE many times -- but not this time. This was too far.
The campaign knew this was a race for electoral votes. Trusted advisors told HRC to speak economics to middle America but she went to donor dinners instead. She promised war and incremental improvement, insulted large groups of people, ignored others, based her entire campaign on fear - not usually effective with Dems, she hired Wasserman-Schul z hours after she was fired from the DNC. Kaine for VP!
Clinton WAS the problem AND we need to work on election reform.
Regards.
How the hell did we get here?
And both candidates are liars. I sort of doubt they would be as diligent in tracking Clinton's lies as they would Trump's.
These false equivalences are part of the problem. Sure, most politicians distort truth but Trump is a unique phenomenon, Clinton doesn't even come close to the games he plays.
One of the issues for journalists is resisting the normalization of persistent lying. To call Trump out as journalists have been doing this past year on his beliefs in conspiracy theories, denial of science and all the rest is seen as disrespecting the office of the president. It's seen as partisan and out of balance, unfair.
I think it's inevitable that it will be normalized and therefore made legitimate and that is an aspect of fascism. A total embrace of falsehoods as fact. We're already there imo, Trump is like a whole new level and a dangerous one.
I heard Gwen Eiffel use that pronounciation when she was having a couple of tu$d-chewers, from the RW, on her show.
I do not know how much state ID cards cost across the country; but, I can imagine that those who try and live on poverty wages, may have difficulties getting a state ID if there is no extra money after rent, bills, and other living expenses. For some, a state ID is a luxury.
Also, after working in a nursing home as a med/treatment nurse, I know that people do not always look like their photos.
The last time I had to renew my license, I had to take my glasses and hat off in order to get my picture taken. The picture looks like me; but, it doesn't really look like me. But, I'm guessing, the facial recognition software would recognize me even when I wear my glasses and hat.
As long as the voter ID is easily obtainable by all citizens, and free, and does not require something difficult to obtain like an original birth certificate, voter ID is not unreasonable. However, it is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. The costs are not commensurate with the degree of voter fraud (not election fraud) that has been shown to exist.
Have you noticed that as bad as the others may be, Trump is swimming deeper in the swamp, is more frighteningly ignorant & out of control, & is more frighteningly interested in deluding the public & becoming a tyrant than anyone before him.
He is more dangerously racist, sexist, xenophobic & anti-immigrant than anyone before him. His ego is so fragile that he verbally attacks individual college students, union leaders, etc. Is this the person we want to give the launch codes to, or the role of Commander in Chief?
His appointments prove that he lied to the people about his interest in helping them, & cares only for the 1%, including fossil fuel barons & military contractors. His appointees lack qualifications for their positions, & want to destroy what they're supposed to lead.
Be scared. Be very scared!
Stop flinging your poo all over this comments board.
Fixed.
The CIA really blew it with actual progressives, as opposed to those like Hillary who claim to be because it is in currently vogue, with this gambit. They have squandered the animosity Trump has created with his appointments.
Good point.
I also heard today that the Clintons blew it by having Bill go talk to AG Loretta Lynch because then, 11 days before the election she had to recuse herself from making the determination about reopening the email investigation -- so Comey made the decision.
Just like Nader I can think of twenty reasons Clinton lost but she and Podesta are clinging hard to Comey and Russia -- not one iota of honesty in them.
These are our leaders? No wonder we're lost.
Enjoy your holidays, as long as you still have them and can afford it.
Not if you have an independent press who will check everything he says and inform the public when he is lying, exaggerating or just wrong.
The fourth estate has to step up and stop obsessing with the Kardashians and the lastest CIA fantasy and do their job.
And so no one forgets, he wasn't the only boldfaced liar presidential candidate this time. Would you be so outraged if Hillary was the President elect spreading lies? She, along with you is spreading the unproven assertion that Russia hacked the Democrats as if it were fact and ignoring the much more serious problem of voter suppression and uncounted votes. Why didn't she step in when Stein was disqualified in the recount? It could have flipped the result without flirting with undemocratic and unconstitutiona l interference with the EC or smearing a foreign country with untold ramifications in the years and decades to come.
Faith is not yet restored, but it is a start toward hope...
I agree the press needs to step up. We need to support the progressive & alternative news sources, & hope that some of the mainstream media will atone for having made an ignorant, racist, misogynistic, climate-science denying, tyrant-loving, self-enriching one-percenter the POTUS (or at least PEOTUS).
I agree that the media failed to investigate the election-changi ng problems of voter suppression & uncounted votes.
I believe that Putin hacked both parties, & only leaked against the Dems in order to help his ally, Trump, defeat a candidate he had a beef with, HRC. I want the media to pay intense attention to voter suppression & uncounted votes, while continuing to follow the story of Putin's interference with our Presidential election.
According to the Federal Election Commission,* as of Dec, 2001, the final count was Gore: 50,999,897, Bush:50,456,002 , a difference of 543,895 votes, the same margin quoted below by techdudester.
* http://www.fec.gov/pubrec/2000presgeresults.htm
On the other hand there is MASSIVE evidence of election theft which has become an epidemic since Bush put computerized voting machines and optical scanners into our polling places.
Exit polls have always been the most reliable safety check on the honesty of elections and all evidence shows that we cannot believe any reported "results" anymore.
Added to those doctored counts is the enormous program to prevent non Republicans from even being able to vote.
There is a very good reason why the Republicans obstructed Jill Stein's attempts to have actual recounts of paper trails...they knew that such an examination would expose the fraud that is presented to the American people as elections.
There seems to be a conspiracy of silence among "journalists" to not speak about this.
According to Wikipedia Gore's margin of victory in the popular vote in year 2000 was 543,895.
Trolls on RSN:
MidwestTom, (King of Trolls.)
lnason@umassd.edu (First Vice president of Trolls)
rocback (Second vice-president of Trolls)
babaregi
Shades of gray matter
NRESQ
bmiluski
Carlosmik
ericlipps
ShutYourLies (Trumpeter)
Krackonis
Robbee
Barbara K
brycenuc
crzkat
ronjazz
Pickwicky
Kiwikid
jdd
PragmaticNotPious
Bryan
Depressionborn
librarian1984
Floe
djnova50
Majikman
dbrize
Painter
savagem13
jfetzer
markovchhaney
mashiguo
dbrize
Old School Conservative
DogSoldier
savagem13
I have to ask, what are your standards for putting names on the list?
According to Wikipedia, an Internet Troll is one who sows discord by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, or off-topic messages in an online community with the intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal, on-topic discussion, often for the troll's amusement.
If you really knew me, you would know that I'm not a troll. But, of course, you don't know me and you are entitled to your opinion.
Thank you Senator McCarthy.
But I must ask, Sir, have you no shame? This list is obviously "fixed" by the work of a scoundrel who pays no attention to vote totals or democracy. I am listed twice and even if only once, I should be closer to the top of your list.
I hereby DEMAND a recount! If not forthcoming immediately I shall scream and stomp my feet until hell freezes over! When I'm done with you, you will not only require a new calculator, but hearing aids. Do you HEAR me! I said recount or I will SCREAM and SHOUT! Oh yes, and also STOMP my feet!
This affront to democratic values cannot stand. You sir, are shameful.
Unfortunately, the evidence is that Trump believes the lies he spews as do many of his followers.
Error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it. - Mohandas Gandhi
That is a statement of faith, not of fact. A lie can gain universal acceptance if not enough people work, and take risks, to keep the truth alive. Gandhi's statement is not something that is self-executing.
a nation to it's death with you. Your legacy is Traitor's to the United States of America.