Tracy writes: "Giuliani appears to be betting that Mueller won’t want to engage in a months- or years-long legal battle over whether a sitting president can be subpoenaed."
Former FBI Director Robert Mueller. (photo: Getty Images)
10 September 18
Mueller’s former colleagues say he is always two steps ahead—and will see his job through to the bitter end.
ours after Rudy Giuliani declared Thursday that questions related to obstruction of justice would be a “no go” if Donald Trump were to sit for an interview with Robert Mueller, the president’s lawyer backpedaled. “We’re not closing it off 100 percent,” he told Politico, echoing a similar statement to NBC News. For Giuliani, the flip-flop was typical. Since he joined Trump’s legal team earlier this year, the longtime ally of the president has repeatedly moved the goalposts for an interview before hurriedly recalibrating. As is often the case with Giuliani, it was unclear whether his reversal was part of a grand strategy or another example of the septuagenarian putting his foot in his mouth.
Ultimately, it may not matter. As negotiations between the Trump and Mueller camps drag on, the perceived odds of the encounter actually happening have diminished. “The whole thing has been a charade, and Giuliani is playing for what he ultimately believes may be an impeachment hearing. He is trying to win the hearts and minds of the people. . . . all of this negotiating is pure nonsense,” Glenn Kirschner, a former homicide prosecutor, told me, dismissing the notion that Giuliani and the rest of Trump’s legal team will ever allow the president to go toe-to-toe with Mueller. “I joke that if you ask the president 10 questions, he probably picks up nine false-statement charges after the first question, which is state your name. I am assuming that he can get that one right, but we have all seen the man—he is a showman, and not a particularly good showman.”
Of course, Mueller’s position could also be political theater. Giuliani appears to be betting that Mueller won’t want to engage in a months- or years-long legal battle over whether a sitting president can be subpoenaed. But it is just as likely that Mueller figured an interview was always a long shot, and has been playing along, in part, to establish that their negotiations were always in good faith. “Mueller wants to at least give the appearance that he is giving the president every opportunity to have his side heard,” explained Kirschner, who reported to Mueller as a prosecutor in the late 1990s. “Because if he doesn’t do that, then when the report is issued or the indictment is handed down, what are the president’s lawyers going to say? They are going to say, this didn’t take his side into account.”
As Mueller’s investigation enters its final stretch, speculation surrounding the timing of the special counsel’s next move has taken on the complexity of the ancient Chinese board game Go. Giuliani’s most recent prevarication regarding an interview with Mueller came on the eve of the 60-day mark before midterms—an arbitrary milestone set by Giuliani, in various interviews, as the point after which any major action by Mueller’s office might be seen to be interfering in the midterm elections. Perhaps, some sources have suggested, Giuliani’s remarks on Thursday could be seen as an attempt to get in a last word before things go dark.
People who know Mueller believe he will abide by the rules. “Bob Mueller has a very, very good instinct for politics and the dangers of Washington, D.C., that’s what made him a very good F.B.I. director,” said Robert Grant, a top former F.B.I. agent and a longtime colleague and friend of the special counsel. “I think his greatest strength was his ability to navigate shark-infested waters very well. He is in tune with both Republicans and Democrats,” Grant continued. “I think going into the election, he is going to be very mindful of the potential impact of anything he does on the midterm elections.”
Kirschner concurred. “The one thing I am confident of is that he is going to make sure that he doesn’t do anything on the timing front that would interfere with the midterm elections. . . . I suspect that we are not going to see anything dramatic between now and the midterms,” he told me. But after a pause, he added, “Who knows? These are unprecedented times and circumstances.” The former homicide prosecutor said that while it wouldn’t surprise him if Mueller went radio silent for the next 60 days, he could also see his former boss operating on the fringes of the investigation, possibly bringing indictments against “satellite players” in the probe such as longtime Trump confident and G.O.P. operative Roger Stone and his associates. “I don’t think those kinds of indictments would necessarily impact or interfere with the midterms,” he posited.
Giuliani’s stalling tactics notwithstanding, reality could come crashing down on Trumpworld. “Bob Mueller is notoriously impatient,” noted Grant. “My guess is that he is pressing his lawyers as hard as he can without interfering with the strategy or the tactics of the investigation.” After the midterm elections, many observers expect the Justice Department to bring indictments that implicate more significant targets, potentially including Trump’s son Donald Trump Jr. and his son-in-law and top adviser, Jared Kushner, for their roles in a Trump Tower meeting with Russian agents peddling dirt on Hillary Clinton. “I have a feeling one way or another that we are going to see a large conspiracy indictment. Who that might include, that is hard to say,” Kirschner said. (Stone, Trump Jr., and Kushner have all denied any wrongdoing.)
The outcome of the midterms will likely be fateful for Trump. If Democrats retake the House, they are expected to open multiple investigations into the president, his businesses, and his campaign, many of which have been thwarted by the current Republican majority. They are also almost certain to initiate impeachment proceedings once Mueller’s report is concluded.
The special counsel, for his part, has given no indication that he is shying away from the political battle to come. “Bob is not afraid of anything for god’s sakes, given what he went through in Vietnam,” said Kirschner. Indeed, everyone I have spoken with who knows Mueller has expressed an unwavering trust that the former F.B.I. director will see his job through to the bitter end. “He is the real deal. He will get to the bottom of this and no one is going to stop him,” said Eugene Casey, the former chief of the F.B.I.’s Eurasian Organized Crime Unit. “I just hope he doesn’t get fired and is able to complete his investigation.”
