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Excerpt: "We are now facing the grim realities of tangible fascism. It doesn't help when liberal pundits and corporate Democrats attack the grassroots activists who are on the frontline of the resistance."

Bill Maher. (photo: HBO)
Bill Maher. (photo: HBO)

Bill Maher and the Corporate Democrats Need to Stop Scapegoating the Grassroots Resistance

By Bob Fitrakis and Harvey Wasserman, Reader Supported News

08 May 17


orporate Democrats and liberal commentators love to scapegoat the activist left for their catastrophic failures. The blame game just fell to a new low with Bill Maher’s latest attack on Jill Stein.

Like Hillary branding Trump supporters as “deplorables,” Bill tells American grassroots activists to “go f*** yourselves with a locally grown organic cucumber.”

Hillary says she was “on her way to victory” when FBI Director James Comey and “the Russians” intervened. Maher and others say Stein caused her defeat, as they blamed Ralph Nader for George W. Bush in 2000.

Hillary now pledges to “resist” Trump Fascism. Maher and other liberal pundits have been relentless in their attacks on him.

And the rest of us struggle with the keys to nonviolent resistance in the Dark Age now upon us.

But one thing is clear: what won’t work is another 16 years of liberals like Maher scapegoating left activists without facing the basic realities of where Trump came from:

  • Like Al Gore in 2000, Hillary Clinton won the popular vote.

  • Counting 2004, which was stolen from John Kerry in Ohio, the Democrats have won every presidential election since 1992.

  • Gore and the Democrats have had 16 years to fight the Electoral College, a racist anachronism designed to enhance the power of slaveowners.

  • The EC has put six popular vote losers in the White House, nearly 15% of our presidents.

  • Rather than work to end the EC and win electoral reform, liberal bloviators and corporate Democrats have spent 16 years whining about Nader, one of America’s greatest activists.

  • Had they instead abolished the EC, Trump would not be president.

  • With the Electoral College in place, still more candidates who lose the popular vote will win the White House.

  • Had Nader NOT run in 2000, George W. Bush still would have become president.

  • Had Stein NOT run in 2016, Donald Trump still would have become president.

  • In Florida 2000, Gov. Jeb Bush used the Jim Crow ChoicePoint program (as reported by Greg Palast) to strip more than 90,000 black and Hispanic voters from registration rolls in a tally allegedly decided by 537 votes.

  • In Ohio 2004, Jim Crow GOP election boards stripped more than 300,000 primarily urban black voters from registration rolls in a tally decided by 118,775.

  • In 2016 nationwide, 29 GOP Secretaries of State used the Jim Crow CrossCheck program (as reported in Greg’s “Best Democracy Money Can Buy”) to strip countless thousands of black and Hispanic voters from registration rolls in states that decided the Electoral College.

  • In Florida 2000, electronic flipping in Volusia and Brevard Counties (as reported by Bev Harris) allowing Fox “reporter” John Ellis (a Bush cousin) to flip the network narrative from a Gore to a Bush victory.

  • In Ohio 2004, between 12:20 and 2 a.m. election night, a “glitch” in the state’s computerized vote count (as run under a no-bid contract by a Bush family operative in a Chattanooga bank basement) was used as cover to flip a 4.2% Kerry victory to a 2.4% Bush victory, giving Bush a second term.

  • Nationwide in 2016, electronic “irregularities” continually flipped Clinton exit poll victories to Trump official victories, including in Florida, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin, which gave Trump the Electoral College and the presidency.

  • As in New Mexico 2004 and elsewhere in both 2004 and 2016, thousands of ballots in heavily Democratic areas were allegedly missing a presidential preference, including some 75,395 in Michigan, which was decided by less than 11,000.

All this and more fits a clear historic pattern which we outline in our new “Strip & Flip Disaster of America’s Stolen Elections.”

Clinton Democrats and liberal pundits like Maher call this “conspiracy theory.” They refuse to deal with either the stripping of voter rolls or the flipping of electronic vote counts. Instead they attack grassroots activists who do.

Jill Stein, for example, attempted recounts in Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania. She fought corrupt officials in all three states (Pennsylvania has a Democratic governor) and hit nothing but brick walls.

Clinton sent “legal observers” but no financial or other meaningful help. Liberal pundits continually attacked Jill for her efforts. Despite the horrors of Trump fascism, the Democrats have said and done nothing about the total fraud that put him in the White House.

Al Gore essentially disappeared immediately after losing 5-4 in the US Supreme Court. So did Kerry and Clinton immediately after their own losses. Not one of them is working to abolish the Electoral College, or for a reliable election system. But the corporate Democrats and liberal pundits have plenty of energy to scream at the grassroots left.

Of course, in 2008 and 2012, that’s precisely who put Barack Obama in the White House. We have reported widespread electoral fraud in both years. But a powerful and diligent grassroots upheaval curbed enough abuses to save Obama from what doomed Gore, Kerry and Clinton.

Obama also used that grassroots energy to build a popular vote margin too big to steal.

In 2016, Bernie Sanders again unleashed that grassroots power. As an avowed socialist, he inspired millions of precisely the activists a legitimate Democratic Party should have welcomed — young, committed, energetic, idealistic, ready to work for a social democratic future.

We believe Bernie was the rightful Democratic nominee. We also believe that had she chosen Bernie for VP, Hillary could have walked into the White House.

Despite her miserable campaign, locking into the Sandernista movement would have allowed us to thoroughly monitor this election, curb some of the worst abuses and build a grassroots constituency that could have overwhelmed Trump’s fascism and put this country on the road to real social change.

In these dark days we must recall that in the spring of 2016 we enjoyed the HUGEST social democratic movement in a century, with tens of millions of optimistic Americans ready to work and win a bright and fair future.

Instead we face the grim realities of tangible fascism. It doesn’t help when liberal pundits and corporate Democats attack the grassroots activists who are on the frontline of the resistance.

The Democrats will stay out of power until they can convince the American public (even us “deplorables”) they can deliver on civil liberties, social justice, ecological sanity, and more. And that they can construct an electoral system that actually reflects the popular will.

Clinton, Kerry, Gore and the liberal punditocracy must finally deal with how they lost these three presidencies. And then DO something about it, so it doesn’t happen again.

They could start by demanding universal automatic voter registration; transparent registration rolls immune to Jim Crow stripping by programs like ChoicePoint and Crosscheck; universal hand-counted paper ballots; a four-day natonal holiday for voting; an end to gerrymandering, the Electoral College, and the corporate purchase of campaigns.

They might also THANK rather than scapegoat what was once the Democratic Party’s energetic base, including activists like Nader, Stein, Bernie and the rest of the grassroots movements that form our last and strongest barrier against the harsh realities of Trump Fascism.

Bob Fitrakis & Harvey Wasserman are co-authors of THE STRIP & FLIP SELECTION OF 2016: FIVE JIM CROWS & ELECTRONIC ELECTION THEFT at, where Bob’s FITRAKIS FILES are available. Harvey’s SOLARTOPIA! OUR GREEN-POWERED EARTH is at

Reader Supported News is the Publication of Origin for this work. Permission to republish is freely granted with credit and a link back to Reader Supported News. your social media marketing partner


A note of caution regarding our comment sections:

For months a stream of media reports have warned of coordinated propaganda efforts targeting political websites based in the U.S., particularly in the run-up to the 2016 presidential election.

We too were alarmed at the patterns we were, and still are, seeing. It is clear that the provocateurs are far more savvy, disciplined, and purposeful than anything we have ever experienced before.

It is also clear that we still have elements of the same activity in our article discussion forums at this time.

We have hosted and encouraged reader expression since the turn of the century. The comments of our readers are the most vibrant, best-used interactive feature at Reader Supported News. Accordingly, we are strongly resistant to interrupting those services.

It is, however, important to note that in all likelihood hardened operatives are attempting to shape the dialog our community seeks to engage in.

Adapt and overcome.

Marc Ash
Founder, Reader Supported News

+84 # 2017-05-08 13:22
thank you RSN for publishing this!

let's fight to repeal Trump Fascism & get to Solartopia!!!
+2 # 2017-05-08 14:59
American Evil
+30 # Moxa 2017-05-08 15:12
This is probably all true. However, it isn't a question of what the Democrats SHOULD do, because they won't do it. Einstein said insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Well, the Democrats are, by that definition insane. And so are we, if we expect them to change!

Rather than fighting the labeling of progressives as spoilers (which is so exhausting) it is time to draft Bernie Sanders to start a new party. This can happen now as it could not have happened before. There is a super-energized base--including many independents--a nd Bernie is now the most popular politician in America. Instead of licking our wounds and hoping (uselessly) that corporatist Democrats will suddenly decide to stop taking money from Wall Street, we need to consolidate our energy, take the lead and grab the momentum that has recently taken hold of the country. Please SIGN THE PETITION!
-14 # John S. Browne 2017-05-09 18:32

If "'BurnishedFool sGold' Sanders" wasn't controlled "opposition", he would have been assassinated already; and if he really wanted to, and was seriously likely to create such a new party and "win" the "'Bleak' House", he would be assassinated by the neoliberal-neoc on "Fourth Reich" corporate-fasci st globalists for sure then (unless they still, secretly, pulled his strings and/or controlled him, and they wanted him in). Yes, contrary to popular willfully-ignor ant "liberal" and/or "progressive" belief(s), there are MANY, HUGE conspiracies, aka "conspiracy FACTS", going on; particularly the one great big one of the global(ist) totalitarian corporate-fasci st "'1984'-izing" takeover and enslavement of the entire world under the exact opposite(s) of True Liberty(ies) and Freedom(s).

So, putting it more succinctly, frack Sanders and ALL of his controlled-oppo sition, military-indust rial-complex-lo ving ilk. He's nothing but a wolf in sheep's clothing. So, don't continue to be fooled by him or anyone like him, or by the "'Bubba' and '(S)Hitlery' Clintons", "'Backstabbing' 'Insane' 'Odronas'", etc., of the global(ist) corporate-fasci st enslavement club and/or variety of extremely-evil marionettes and/or minions of the "Fourth Reich" global(ist) fascist "'New World' (Dis)Order (Out of Chaos)", divide-and-conq uer, Hegelian Dialectic, etc., rulers.

(Continued below)
-1 # John S. Browne 2017-05-13 02:29

Evil is as evil does, while making it appear that they're "doing good" and "the only salvation of the entire planet", and seeking, quite successfully, to fool most "Amerikans" and others, who are brainwashed and "washed-of(-tru e)-brains", to blindly trust them. Those puppets of the global(ist) rulers are the ultimate "al CIAduh(!)"-groo med flim-flam, aka con artist, men and women, who hypnotize the masses into believing their mostly- lies and promises that they never intended to, and will never, keep ["Bubba", "BurnishedFools Gold", "Odrona", "(S)Hitlery" and "(T)rump" are prime examples of those flim-flam con artist minions and/or puppets of the totalitarian fascist global(ist) rulers and enslavers under the antithesis of True Freedom(s) and Liberty(ies)].

+40 # librarian1984 2017-05-08 15:25
Amen! AMEN!! Thank you so much for this article.

I used to love Bill Maher but can barely watch him anymore. Last week his last New Rule was devoted to this nonsense of attacking the left. How does that help us at all?

And for anyone who thinks the GOP is our only problem, this article lays out the negligence of the DP in regard to election integrity. Why on earth aren't Democrats trying to improve our elections?

I am sick of hearing about Nader and Stein, sick of corporate Democrats demeaning the left wing, which is the only source of morality or energy in the party, and I am REALLY sick of hearing we shouldn't move to the left. Why not? Because we'll lose a thousand state seats, 13 governorships, 13 Senate seats, 70 House seats? Oh wait -- the corporatists already did that! How much worse could the left do than THAT?
+31 # Wise woman 2017-05-08 16:14
Not only do we have to thank these folks, we have to get off our collective butts and start working like hell to stamp out what this article so eloquently describes. True liberals who think about helping people instead of hurting them, have been off the radar for years. Sometimes, the selfishness of America astounds me. Thank heavens for Bernie and all those behind him. Remember, all change starts from the bottom up.
+34 # Radscal 2017-05-08 16:45
The solutions at the end of this article are precisely what are needed to establish legitimate elections in this country.

1. Automatic registration of every citizen on their 18th birthday, and removal on their death. EVERYONE ELSE gets to vote. (BTW: standardized, free voter ID cards should be fine as long as they are easily acquired by every citizen).

2. This would mean NO voter roll purges at all for any reason, and yes I am suggesting that no citizen be disenfranchised for any reason, perhaps short of a conviction for treason. Maybe if the millions in prisons for non-violent drug arrests got to vote, the War on Drugs might change (especially since those prisoners are disproportional ly in districts that tend "conservative" otherwise).

3. Paper ballots filled out in ink and hand counted numerous times under the observation of representatives of any interested parties.

4. Free Campaigns. Require selected media to provide exactly equal time/space to each candidate/issue and NO PAID ADVERTISEMENTS whatsoever.

Greg Palast and others have been shouting about the election fraud for more than a decade. Yet, the Democratic Party (which looked to be the greatest victim of this fraud) said and did nothing.

Even Bernie Sanders, who was sent the incontrovertibl e evidence of fraud in the primaries refused to even acknowledge having gotten that information from his supporters, and publicly denied it was happening.

So, how do we get these changes?
-6 # John S. Browne 2017-05-09 16:54

Shows what an actual fraud "'BurnishedFool sGold' ('Loves-the-Mil itary-Industria l-Complex') Sanders" is, eh?

Excellent post, Danny (aka, "Radscal")!

Cheers, Mate!

-7 # John S. Browne 2017-05-09 17:00

Say, Danny, why don't you get in touch with you-know-who that we've spoken of who lives in Washington State, and encourage him to come back and comment here?

Good idea, yes?

+2 # Radscal 2017-05-10 14:20
Good idea. I just read his latest article and sent a comment.
0 # John S. Browne 2017-05-11 02:27

Thanks for the link. Good article by Loren. I especially like the way he ended it with the last word, "apocalypse", part of the name of my blog. He's so right that things are coming to an apocalypse. That's why the globalist "Fourth Reich" will ride in and convince the downtrodden, suffering-like- never-before masses that the former are their "riders on white horses" and will "save" them and the world if they will but believe it (the lies)---like they blindly believed the almost nothing but lies of globalist con man and hypnotist, "Odrona".


0 # John S. Browne 2017-05-09 17:03

Excellent comment(s) by "Salus Populi" below, isn't it and/or aren't they?!

0 # John S. Browne 2017-05-10 12:13

PM alert! :o)

+10 # Pikewich 2017-05-08 17:36
Bill Mayer and the other members of the DNC and corporate "Democrats" are little different than their rethuglican counterparts.

They are the pro-choice, neoliberal wing of the corporate party.

They can blame the grass roots movement till they turn blue or have a seizure, but it won't win them the vote of those of us who are done with establishment politics.
+17 # Saberoff 2017-05-08 18:36
"Clinton, Kerry, Gore and the liberal punditocracy must finally deal with how they lost these three presidencies. And then DO something about it, so it doesn’t happen again."

It would appear as though Kerry and Gore were simply robbed (by all that, above) however, Clinton, like Obama, could have amassed enough votes to thwart that theft again had she not been, well, Hillary Clinton. The real closer on her defeat was the blatant theft of the Sanders' candidacy.

I don't see how we can address encroaching fascism without first (thanks a lot) dealing with our back-stabbing friends. We need friends of all stripes; but can, and will, do nothing surrounded by trusted traitors.

And by the way: add Revamping the so-called Media (PBS too) to the to-do list.
+18 # John S. Browne 2017-05-08 18:39

Bill Maher and all those like him are corporate-fasci sts. Maher does have some "tell-it-like-i t-is" pundits on his show, but increasingly he interrupts and disagrees with them. Ever since he almost got violent with the protesters in his audience, I have not watched his show, good guests or no good guests. That was the last straw for me. He's against protest and civil disobedience (the latter like what the protesters in his audience carried out); so, in reality, he's against True Liberty and Freedom. And, if he's not actually part and parcel of the globalist totalitarian fascist takeover and enslavement of the U.S., the West and the world, which it wouldn't at all surprise me if he is, he is refusing to recognize that fascism is indeed taking over, and he is helping it to do so whether he is consciously doing so or not.

These rich people are sold out, if not entirely, almost entirely, and they have less and less regard, and are even developing extreme antipathy, for "the little people". And his ilk have been increasingly living the lifestyle to which they've become accustomed, at the expense of the "have nots", and couldn't care less if that's what they're doing. Their money and opulent living have insulated them from the masses; and, thus, freedom and liberty for the majority are the last things on their minds. They're too busy doing their corporate-fasci st jobs, aware of it or not, and running their lives of excess, to really care about anyone but themselves.

+18 # Emmanuel Goldstein 2017-05-08 18:42
Thank you, Fitrakis & Wasserman, for telling it like it is.
+16 # economagic 2017-05-08 20:05
Ancient history, but it bears repeating given the short attention span of the USian public. (In 1977, in "Four Arguments For the Elimination of Television," former adman Jerry Mander, one of our finest neo-luddites, pointed out that the average duration of a camera shot on TV was well under ten seconds, slightly longer on the big screen.)

Take another look at that list of MAJOR issues in the fourth paragraph from the end, NOT ONE of which the Democratic Misleadership Inc. has even pretended to address. I have said for well over a decade, including in these forums, that the Democratic Party has been far too "loyal" and nowhere nearly enough "opposition." And I said that Bill Clinton was the best Republican president since Eisenhower for a decade, by which time nobody remembered his heroic actions as an enabler then a supporter of fascism.

And in case a certain person has forgotten the greatest of those actions, I recommend a review of the Gramm-Leach-Bli ley Act that paved the way for the Crash of 2008 -- not to diminish the contributions of Chairman Al (Greenspan) and Larry Summers, who repeatedly swatted down powerful women who warned of the dangers arising in financial markets as early as 1996, and of all of official Washington in failing to prohibit the mergers of Citibank first with Salomon Smith Barney and then with the Travelers Group in 1998, all arguably contrary to provisions of the Banking Act of 1933 (familiarly known as the Glass Steagall Act).
+6 # Inspired Citizen 2017-05-08 20:12
Maher is completely off the mark. He doesn't want to recognize Hillary as "evil" (a designation outdated by F. Nietzsche's Beyond Good and Evil), but she's still more hawkish than Trump AND would have destroyed democratic self-government with many corporate-craft ed, imposed rules contained in so-called "free-trade" agreements. She was the more dangerous of two dangerous candidates.

He's right; Trump is a fascistic nightmare. He admits he doesn't understand what a "neoliberal nightmare" is, and that ignorance makes him every bit as much a part of the problem as Hillary herself. He has a responsibility to learn about the threat of globalization, but don't hold your breath.
-6 # Robbee 2017-05-09 09:47
Quoting Inspired Citizen 2017-05-08 20:12:
Hillary's still more hawkish than Trump AND would have destroyed democratic self-government with "free-trade" agreements (because one can't trust anything she says except when she says something one hates)

Trump doesn't understand what globalization is (but we can trust him to mean well)

- pure excuse! someday citizen may regret supporting rump - "but don't hold your breath!"

citizen's comment says more about citizen, than it does about hill or rump! - citizen is like a dog that, to get a bone, pokes his head thru the fence, and now that the bone won't fit thru the fence, won't let go!

citizen! your gross oversimplificat ion is the kind of lazy thinking that got us into this worker-hating 4 or 8 years!
-4 # Robbee 2017-05-09 20:58
-7? - yellow dogs! take me to your leader!

ooops? he's gone?
0 # John S. Browne 2017-05-09 17:41

Excellent comment(s), "I.C.". "(T)rump" is most likely a "Bilderberg-pic ked", knowing part of globalization, and one of it's many puppets (aka, the global(ist) "Fourth Reich" eradication of all True Freedom(s) and Liberty(ies), and enslaving the U.S., the West and the entire world under the exact opposite, a "'1984'-ized" totalitarian corporate militarized fascist police state. Otherwise, I doubt he could have "won" the "'Bleak' House"; or, if he wasn't (s)elected by them, will likely be assassinated or ousted in some other fashion in short order. But it is VERY unlikely that he got in without their approval; so, as I say, he is quite probably part and parcel of the "Fourth Reich" global(ist) corporate-fasci sts.

And I believe "(T)rump" knows quite well too, that he is a neocon-neoliber al or vise-versa, and is just fraudulently feigning ignorance of same. That's what corporate-fasci sts are, without any doubt(s) whatsoever, and that's what most of the U.S. and Western, or Western-control led/Westernized (like Afghanistan, the Eastern European countries, Iraq, Libya, Pakistan, Russia, and soon-to-be-Syri a, etc.) global(ist) government(s) is and/or are now, and "(T)rump" is definitely a corporate-fasci st. Therefore, that is another reason that he must be playing for the "Fourth Reich" globalist team without fail and/or exception(s). But, if he is ousted and/or assassinated, I was wrong.

+5 # Radscal 2017-05-10 14:22
Yep. It's amazing that so many Trump supporters don't believe a thing the MSM tells them, but somehow totally believes the MSM narrative about Trump being an "outsider" whom the "Establishment" opposes.
+17 # Wildcat 2017-05-08 21:44
It is refreshing finally seeing articles of this sort. Freeing our voting from corruption is the biggest issue we face. No other issue matters if the voting isn't fair. Ever wonder why so many politicians don't seem to worry what the sheep think about their radical actions? That is because voter opinions have become impertinent since that isn't what decides who is elected. In countries where exit polls don't match election outcomes, we would normally suspect fraud, except when it happens here. Germany saw the inevitable electronic vote hacking, and switched to verifiable paper counts.
-8 # sdraymond 2017-05-08 21:57
Bill Maher is a Berniecrat. If you want to go after the corporate wing of the party, you should be targeting people like Anderson Cooper who, during the first debate on CNN, tried to 'out' Bernie as too socialist or progressive because he supported socialist revolutionaries years ago.Bill Maher was right!

Oh, and stop trying to assuage your guilt for voting for Nader. He was THE REASON that Gore lost Florida, so don't try to re-write history because you made a mistake. I voted for Cleaver like so many others who then helped put Nixon in the white house and I'll admit my mistake. If you voted for Nader and Stein, admit your mistake and stop trying to be Trumpian and change the subject. Yes, we do need to get rid of the electoral college, but the reason that Bush and possibly Trump won was that people like you thought you were too righteous!
+15 # futhark 2017-05-08 22:01
I feel very strongly that the neoliberals in the Democratic Party as are just as responsible for Donald Trump occupying the White House as those misguided souls who actually voted for him. Those who want to move forward toward a more peaceful and just society with a widely shared sustainable prosperity have been marginalized by the established Democratic Party elite, which has retained its power by means contrary to the fundamental principles of democracy. As for "conspiracy theories", it is sometimes quite reasonable to hypothesize that those wielding economic or political power will on occasion collude together to frustrate any moves by those they see in opposition. This is a well-establishe d way of doing business in a capitalist economy and will happen to the extent the perpetrators think they will not be held accountable in any way that causes them injury or inconvenience.
+5 # Wise woman 2017-05-08 22:03
What's with Bill Maher? Is this a middle-aged turnaround? He made his career standing up to right wing BS now suddenly, he's drifting toward that very direction. Hate to lose him. He can be very erudite.
0 # Citizen Mike 2017-05-08 22:11
Liberals of all kinds must unite to stop Trumpism. You are mistaken to praise that arrogant spoiler Nader, he started this fascist trend by holding the door open for Cheney and his puppet Bush. A vote for Stein was a waste and a distraction. Our only hope is a renewal of the Democratic Party reasserting the values of the New Deal, which is to preserve capitalism by restraining its abuses through regulation and adopting some socialistic practices. Capitalism per se cannot be overthrown but it can be tamed and forced to serve the common good.
+6 # RLF 2017-05-10 05:41
To blame the missteps and pro-corporate position of the democrats failure on Stein or Nader or Bernie is about as dumb as it gets! The Dems refusal to recognize the destruction of the middle class an hold anyone accountable is why they are losing everything. People are sick of a party that stands for nothing except making the party richer than the republicans.
+10 # Caliban 2017-05-09 00:38
When it comes to election analysis, Bob Fitrakis and Harvey Wasserman are unique researchers, writers and activists.

They have been beacons of sanity in the past and must be empowered to keep the country moving forward in the future.

So, we RSN readers must be prepared to support and assist them in whatever ways we can.
-16 # No Go 2017-05-09 00:40
Blame the Russians, Comey, the Deplorables, AND Bernie, who, after drinking his own kool-aid a bit too much, went negative in his campaign against Hillary, even though he had promised not to do that.
The confluence of those four factors put disgusting, ignorant, lying Donald in the White House.
+9 # elkingo 2017-05-09 01:27
Hillary put Trump in office by not deferring to Bernie, which her yuppie ego wouldn't allow
Surprised greatly by Maher. This guy always seemed on the ball. Jill Stein is an ingenuous decent and sensible humanitarian who barely polled 7% or something like. So what conceivable bad can be laid at her doorstep?
-18 # ericlipps 2017-05-09 05:02
In 2016, Bernie Sanders again unleashed that grassroots power. As an avowed socialist, he inspired millions of precisely the activists a legitimate Democratic Party should have welcomed — young, committed, energetic, idealistic, ready to work for a social democratic future.
As an avowed socialist, Bernie Sanders would have been trampled in November by people racing to the polls in panic to vote for Trump.
We believe Bernie was the rightful Democratic nominee. We also believe that had she chosen Bernie for VP, Hillary could have walked into the White House.
Sigh . . . not this again. Even Bernie doesn't believe the nomination was stolen from him. And if Clinton had chosen him as her running-mate, she'd have been trampled at the polls (see above). That is, if she and Bernie hadn't been shot first.
+4 # Reductio Ad Absurdum 2017-05-09 05:13
The authors play fast and loose with the truth when they repeat the rightwing implication — and therefore lie — that Clinton called all Trump supporters "deplorables. She did not, and they know better, and it undermines their credibility.

Clinton said, "You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right? The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic -- you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people -- now 11 million. He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric." Clinton wasn't wrong — hate crimes have shot up since the election.

Clinton should have said, "There is no doubt that Trump has attracted huge numbers of racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic and violent people to his campaign, and you can tell by the signs they hold up at his rallies that they're proud of it."

So now Trump supporters identify as "deplorables" as a mocking badge of honor, so it's only fair to ask them what flavor of deplorable they are — racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, or Islamaphobic?

For the full CONTEXT of Clinton's misconstrued remarks, go here:
In Context: Hillary Clinton and the 'basket of deplorables'
+17 # Salus Populi 2017-05-09 07:17
This is a breath of fresh air, and a good counterweight to the endless [and unsupported by available evidence] insistence that the foreign bogeymen in Moscow purportedly "hacked" the election and somehow were more influential than the popular loathing, pre-election, for the Democratic candidate, her limp and uninspiring "me-too" campaign, the arrant dismissal of the millions of grassroots activists who made the insurgency of Sanders possible, the Comey *proven* "intervention" two days before the vote, and above all the Republican "tried and true" theft of the votes needed to eke out an EC victory in the general election.

As Palast noted, the pre-election CrossPoint scrubbing and election day vote flipping also cost seven Democratic candidates for Senate their likely victories, thus giving the Rethugs control of all three branches of government.

By refusing to deal with any of this blatant corruption, and instead using the disaster they produced as another excuse to trash what passes for the "left" in this besotted fascist [T]rump of a country, the Dim-o-cRats have once again snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. Corporatism, as in the slogan popularly attributed to Mussolini an alternate name for fascism, continues to reign triumphant, thanks to our electoral system of "an ungainly bird with two right wings" [Gore Vidal].
-4 # kyzipster 2017-05-09 08:11
I liked this rant by Maher. I don't think he's blaming Stein for Clinton's loss. He only uses one quote and gives equal attention to Cornel West. He's making a much more general statement about liberal purists; some chose not to vote, some voted for Stein and some probably voted Trump. He's not saying this caused the election to go to Trump, there's no proof of this and he's not making the claim, he clearly states that this is about winning the next election.

This is nothing more than pointing out the falsehood that both sides are exactly the same. He uses quotes by Stein and West that illustrate this belief. His rant is mostly pointing out the extremism of a Trump administration in the first 100 days, extremism we would not be experiencing under Clinton. Of course we all saw this coming.

I'd rather be working for change with another status quo president like Clinton in office than fighting against further right-wing extremism with Trump and a Republican Congress. Like Occupy Wall St, BLM and Standing Rock during Obama's Presidency. When a Democrat is in office, progressive protests rise above partisanship and have more influence imo.

I could give a F about Hillary and Stein this is about the future and Republicans, as always, are pushing us over the edge with their extremism. More income inequality, more irresponsible and dangerous deregulation, etc etc etc.
+5 # Radscal 2017-05-09 17:19
OK. I re-listened to Maher's rant and he was absolutely blaming progressives/li berals, and insisting that we better be ready to get in line and vote for whomever the DNC decides to spit at us next time.

It's the same thing as always. Scare the lefties into voting for another neoliberal.

But, we were right, not him. We warned the "moderates" from day one that HRC was the least electable candidate possible. We warned over and over that she is so hated (rightly or wrongly doesn't matter) that she would motivate "conservatives" to go and vote against her.

But, she would not motivate the Democratic Party base to bother to go vote for her. And that's exactly what happened. Now I'll admit that I was somewhat surprised that she's such a horrible candidate that she could lose to Trump, but we warned that this was a distinct possibility. And she gave away the game changing swing state electoral votes.

Not so fun-fact: 9% of Democrats voted for Trump. And despite your claim, I find it impossible to believe that progressives made up even a significant part of that number. Those were the "rust belt" and coal/oil/blue collar folks who bought into some of Trump's populist rhetoric. You know some of them, don't you?
-2 # kyzipster 2017-05-10 09:12
I don't see that. Maher makes it clear that his rant is not about the last election, it's about the next election. I'm hoping it will be Elizabeth Warren. I doubt Maher would disagree with your POV about the Dem establishment, or about the points in this article. I don't. I just don't see Maher's argument as the problem.

I interpret it differently because all he's doing is making a good case for Sanders' position after Clinton secured the nomination, a position I shared without hesitation. He's not saying we should go along with the DNC in the nomination process. He's not saying we should be blind sheep and accept all the corruption without question.

Your reaction is the same thing as always here at RSN. If we showed support to vote against Trump, we're endorsing all that is wrong with the Democratic Party, even if we say otherwise.

I think the argument that both parties are exactly alike is foolish, the facts don't back it up. After 8 years of Bush and 100 days of Trump, how much more evidence does a person need?

The only way the argument holds up is with speculation on Clinton's foreign policy. Suggesting that the Dems represent an equal evil because of Clinton's neoconservative bent, Trump was an unknown and he even suggested he would be different. It was a valid argument but speculative. He's proving to be just as bad, as many of us said he would. When it comes to domestic issues, taxation, health care and the rest, there isn't a debate imo.
+2 # Radscal 2017-05-10 17:48
"I don't see that. Maher makes it clear that his rant is not about the last election, it's about the next election. "

That's what I wrote. He's threatening us to get in line next time, just like the corporate dems always do. If HRC wasn't too bad, then who is? He is NOT saying, we must DEMAND better candidates; he's saying we BETER VOTE FOR whomever the Dem is.

And again, I don't know who you hear saying "that both parties are exactly alike," but it's not me or anyone else I've read on RSN.
-2 # kyzipster 2017-05-10 09:18
..I agree that progressives didn't account for a significant number of Dems who voted for Trump but I never claimed otherwise. It probably didn't register as 1% but I saw enough progressives here at RSN and elsewhere who threatened to vote for Trump to form that opinion. Even a few seemed pleased that Trump won, at least initially. The blind hatred of Clinton by many on the left was undeniable. A lot of that comes from the propaganda that Maher is addressing, propaganda that is not backed by fact imo.
+2 # Radscal 2017-05-10 17:52
Little of the "hatred "I've seen for HRC from anyone near the left is not "blind." It's informed by her record and her campaign.

I listed her record here over and over again. It takes a minimum of three text blocks... and that's without any commentary.

But again, you're making my point. If HRC was acceptable in 2016, and we were wrong for rejecting her, then another HRC would be just fine in 2020.

The Democratic Party and its partisan bots have learned nothing, and so will see the same results in 2018 and 2020.
-2 # kyzipster 2017-05-11 07:56
I think much of it was blind hatred. She and Obama were practically indistinguishab le and he did not receive the same vitriol from progressives. People may have expressed disapproval but not with the same anger. I think a person would have to be blind not to notice. Decades of propaganda did take their toll. I'm sick of her and I felt that way before the election. I understand the valid reasons that people disapprove of Hillary, I'm not stupid. I don't even disagree, but I supported a vote for her, as did Maher. Because Trump is really f-ed up.
-1 # kyzipster 2017-05-10 09:30
One more thing, note that Maher doesn't mention Sanders. If he was arguing that Sanders' challenge to the Dem establishment in the primaries gave us Trump, as many Democrats are doing right now, I wouldn't defend him at all.

Sanders ran as a Democrat to avoid the 2000 controversy imo. Stein did not, I don't blame her for the election but I do see Sanders' approach as much more effective than Nader or Stein and next time a progressive might secure the nomination and actually win. His message is still gaining ground and most people want Clinton to disappear.
+1 # Radscal 2017-05-10 17:56
Yeah when Sanders first talked about running, he asked for input whether he should run as an independent or a Democrat. I wrote to tell him to run as a Democrat, specifically because I've worked on 3 Green Party Presidential campaigns and found it very difficult to convince people to overcome the propaganda and vote for what they want instead of against what they don't want.

I now realize that I erred. Bernie was either never the candidate we hoped, or he was controlled somehow. I shouldn't have wasted my time, money and energy on him.
-1 # kyzipster 2017-05-11 08:33
This is the liberal purity test that Maher is addressing. You disagree with some of Sanders' decisions apparently and now you feel he was a waste of time. I couldn't disagree more. He's had a very big impact on the debate and he's still making a difference.

I've mentioned this before, had Sanders secured the nomination and won, it wouldn't be 6 months before liberal purists would abandon him because of the ugly and necessary compromises he would have had to make as president.

This isn't a defense of Obama, I think Sanders would have stood his ground more than Obama has, but it's what I see with progressive purists. Especially on foreign policy, Sanders would have left office with blood on his hands no matter what decisions were made.

It's an easy thing to place Sanders on a pedestal as a symbol of what could have been. Obama became this symbol when he ran, the higher the hope, the bigger the disappointment. I don't know why, his platform was basically the same as Clinton but he was much more likeable and largely unknown.

You're not doing that here but many people are.
+2 # Radscal 2017-05-11 12:40
You seem to have misunderstood what I meant to convey. I would have been (and still would be) thrilled had Sanders won the election. And yes, I would have criticized him were he to act on exactly what he is now saying about Syria.

I thought we were supposed to "hold their feet to the fire" once we elected a Representative or President?

It's like a true, deep friendship or lover. When someone who loves me sees me doing something wrong/harmful, I want them to tell me. I don't want a bunch of "yes men" in my life (like Trump and HRC clearly do).

What I meant is that I regret having devoted myself to getting him elected because it turned out that Sanders either never was willing to face the systemic corruption in the DP or he became subject to control by them. Since he just rolled over when the DNC rigged the primary, all our energy was wasted. And that energy should have been diverted to candidates and issues that had a chance of winning and would not just roll over.
0 # kyzipster 2017-05-11 13:58
I doubt he's rolling over, I suspect he sees good strategy in playing the game in a corrupt system. I think he's opened the door for Elizabeth Warren to run and hopefully inspired younger people to run for office on a progressive platform. Once he lost the nomination, despite the corruption, he focused on beating Trump and in the long run, I think it's a good strategy as many establishment Democrats are still trying to blame him for a division that would still exist with or without him. I think he acted for the greater good and he's respected by many because of the way he handled it.

I understand your position, there isn't a right or wrong, only unproven theory on how best to move forward and fight for change.
+1 # Radscal 2017-05-10 19:10
I don't want our exchange to come off as combative. So, let me try to be very clear. Let’s agree that Maher is really appalled that HRC lost to the Orange Fuhrer (and that Democrats lost across the country as a result - again as we warned that HRC would drag “down ticket” Democrats down with her - even though I personally voted for them), and he wants progressive Democrats to win going forward.

Then, he should be addressing WHY the Democrats lost, and encouraging us to fix those problems. Election fraud is undeniable, and yet the Establishment denies it. HRC and the DNC and MSM conspired to steal the nomination away from the candidate who all polls before and since the election show would have both beaten Trump and motivated huge numbers of people to get out and vote for progressive/lib eral candidates down ticket.

But, he’s not. He's following the corporate Democrats’ strategy of the past several decades. And it is clearly a losing strategy.

Oh, and yes, you did write that only “some” progressives voted for Trump, so I shouldn’t have implied that meant a significant number.

What about what I asked you? You’d written that 1/3 or 1/4 of the Trump voters you know voted for him based on his populist/blue collar friendly rhetoric, and also that a lot of voters just stayed home. Especially since OK has more Democrats than Republicans, if you extrapolate that out, would a Sanders ticket have had an effect on any of the candidates on the OK ballot?
-2 # kyzipster 2017-05-11 07:51
He's only taking on one argument, that both parties and candidates are exactly the same.

Maher's rant wasn't about Sanders, I'm not a Hillary bot and I've said repeatedly in the past that I think Sanders could have won this election. But, he didn't get the nomination. I live in KY not Oklahoma.

You and many others at RSN project a whole slew of beliefs on to others when they disagree with you on any issue. You're doing the same with Maher here and me. It's predictable, boring and a waste of time to argue these points. I have to repeatedly say, "I agree, I agree. That's not what I'm saying, etc,"
+3 # Radscal 2017-05-11 12:55
I've been watching Maher since his original "Politically Incorrect" on Comedy Central 1/4 century ago (it really went downhill after he took it to ABC). Actually, I saw some of his standup even before then. I think I know his publicly-stated views (and how they've evolved) pretty well. So I don't think I'm "projecting" anything on to him; I'm shining a spotlight onto him.

In this rant, he's clearly stating that it was progressive's fault for our having a President Orange Fuhrer. He's clearly saying that we better get in line next time. If you think his only argument was that we think "both parties and candidates are exactly the same," then perhaps you should do what I did after reading your first comment, and rewatch it after reading that someone else got a different impression.

And for some reason, you continue to refuse to acknowledge that you wrote that a genuinely significant number of Trump voters took a chance on him for his pro-working class rhetoric.

If you choose to blame the voters instead of HRC/DNC/MSM, then what about all those people who would have voted for any Democrat who directly and correctly addressed the concerns they have and the problems they face every single day?
-1 # kyzipster 2017-05-11 14:26
You're projecting all kinds of things as usual.

I'm not giving anyone a break. There were all kinds of dynamics in this election. Of course I blame the DNC, HRC, the MSM, AND voters most of all.

The 'liberal purity' test is only one of many dynamics. I don't know if it cost Clinton the election, or I could care less about proving anything. It can't be proven and I accept that. It can't be disproved either. I don't see Maher trying to prove it. The implication is there because it is a possibility.

I mostly believe it's hogwash and I've said so many times, it's a belief system on the left that doesn't hold up to scrutiny, it denies many truths. This isn't cheerleading for the establishment. There are better ways, imo, to move forward than rejecting a major political party absolutely.

As my state is experiencing an all Republican government for the first time in our history, we're seeing aggressive attacks on what progressive accomplishments have been made by our liberal politicians in urban areas. It sickens me, and this fallacy that 'both sides are exactly the same' may have far reaching consequences. It adds to the apathy that gave us our Tea Party governor in the last midterm, 17% turnout by millennials.

500,000 people will likely lose Medicaid in my state, a significant increase in the minimum wage in my city may be lost, civil rights protection that took well over a decade to gain. Consequences far beyond frigging Clinton and corruption at the DNC.
+1 # Radscal 2017-05-12 17:56
Did you take my advice and go back and watch that Maher segment again to see if perhaps my point of view is valid?

As we've discussed before, your State "is experiencing an all Republican government for the first time in our history," even though there are more Democrats than Republicans there. Was it OK's progressives who caused that to happen, or was it the working class?

You've never acknowledged having seen the videos and articles I posted that showed Trump voters (including in OK) being won over to "progressive" policies in a matter of minutes, by someone who understood the policies and the plight of the 99%.
0 # Radscal 2017-05-13 18:24
Oops. Sorry, I know you're in KY, not OK. Don't know why I started typing OK.

OK? ;-)
-1 # kyzipster 2017-05-11 14:47
"you continue to refuse to acknowledge that you wrote that a genuinely significant number of Trump voters took a chance on him for his pro-working class rhetoric."

I don't deny what you're saying, does that somehow disprove anything else I've said? Don't you think racism and xenophobia had a lot to do with it? I do, but it's not as simple as that.

I do believe there has been a disproportionat e amount of attention given to this demographic. Trump voters trended higher income, the election was largely straight down party lines as all elections are. After 8 years of Obama, naturally a lot of people switched allegiance. Countless dynamics. Urban areas voted Democrat as they always do and there are plenty of 'working class former factory workers' in my urban area.

I'm glad to see that people are waking up to the fact that Trump was a great candidate for the opposition, it wasn't all about how boring and out of touch Hillary was. I didn't quite see it during the election, even the Republican establishment thought he would lose, and I live in a hopelessly red state. He's a beaming icon of hope for them, it's truly frightening.

Clinton couldn't lie about bringing high paying factory jobs back like Trump did and I wouldn't want her to. Sanders couldn't do that, he could only speak in realistic terms, Warren's shtick is very similar. This double standard is one more dynamic that always favors conservatives. They're much more cult-like than liberals.
0 # Radscal 2017-05-12 18:06
Yes, there's racism and sexism and all sorts of other bigotry. You know I've written that many times. Yes, some people voted based on bigotry (for both Trump and HRC, but different bigotry of course). And yes, bigotry played a substantial role, especially in Trump votes.

Yet, he still "won" with fewer votes than Romney LOST with. I continue to make the case for getting more people motivated to vote FOR something.

It is NOT "natural" as you claim, that voters reject a party and the candidate who promises to continue the polices of the predecessor. People don't reject something that has been really good for them. People reject getting screwed over.

Yes, Trump lied to those poor people, and a good number of them chose to "hope for change" and said "yes, we can" "Make America Great."

Campaigning for change is ALWAYS and ONLY successful when voters are angry about and/or hurting from their current situation.
+2 # Radscal 2017-05-11 12:56
ps. I'm not the one down voting your comments. I generally only down vote when I feel the comment is knowingly false or dangerous, not just because I disagree.
0 # kyzipster 2017-05-11 14:33
Tks, I get an automatic thumbs down by at least one person, no matter what I post.
+1 # John S. Browne 2017-05-11 17:05

"Kyzipster", your getting your comments voted down into the "red" is because you are so willfully-ignor ant and falsely believe in voting "TLOTE" (voting for the "'lesser' of two evils"), when we are, ONLY, supposed to vote our consciences, and ONLY vote for the candidate(s) who not only share our values, but also aren't only saying what we want to hear and, with discernment on our parts, clearly being disingenuous, and are dissembling and prevaricating (aka, lying through their teeth and projecting themselves as the opposite of what they really are, and purposefully seeking to deceive us/everyone/mos t people).

Of course, I realize that most "Amerikans" are so dumbed-down (not all their fault since they have been "chemically-lob otomized" with brainwashing and pacifying chemicals, and been so thoroughly and successfully conditioned, indoctrinated and programmed, to be same), and love falling for frauds so much, that they will not discern when complete frauds (like "BubbaClintonCO N", "BushCON", "HitleryCON", "OdronaCON" and "(T)rumpCON") are just that, total frauds. But that does NOT mean they're at all off the hook. They ARE responsible for not availing themselves of the opportunities to wake up and come of the mass-insanity dreamworld, and out of the/our brainwashing, and be set free by the truth; which would also preclude them from EVER AGAIN voting TLOTE, etc. Of course, I also realize that most people don't want to wake up and be set free by the truth either.

0 # John S. Browne 2017-05-12 08:38

(Continued from previous post)

And many if not most of the people who comment here are against "(S)Hitlery" and voting "TLOTE". So, now berate me too for telling it like it is in no uncertain, so-called "rude", terms. Get real. I mean that literally. Become a real person instead of a lover of phoniness like most "Amerikans" such as yourself. Come out of the all of the phoniness and be set free by the truth.

0 # kyzipster 2017-05-12 09:06
Thank you, I especially like the 'willfully ignorant' bit, your superiority has humbled me.

I have never criticized anyone for voting their conscience, not once. I understand the reasons for a progressive to not vote for Clinton and I respect that choice. I've stated this clearly at RSN before the election a few times.

What I have issue with is the argument that both sides are exactly the same. I think it's absolute bull chit. This simple minded propaganda coming from liberal purists does damage. My main problem with it, is that it's not backed by fact. It's a philosophical argument, nothing more. It doesn't disprove my position.

One side is far more extreme on domestic issues and the evidence is so apparent it doesn't need pointing out.

I believe the Democratic Party should be commended for its successes and condemned for where they have failed, condemned for all of their corruption. Sanders handled this well, it's not that complicated..
0 # kyzipster 2017-05-12 09:08
Where I live, an increased minimum wage is under attack, along with a significant expansion of Medicaid to 500k people and local civil rights laws. Progressive accomplishments in a deeply red state, I have every reason to think they will succeed.

Democrats, mostly, have put single payer health care on the ballot in CO and I believe it's coming up in CA. Free tuition in NY and SF. A long list of other accomplishments despite Republican dominance of this country and corporate control of the DNC and Congress.

It's nothing more than a difference of opinion on how to move forward with a progressive movement. Working within a corrupt system or rejecting it.

Good luck rejecting the Democratic Party outright, that's really been working well the last 20 or 30 years.

Granted, nothing seems to be working but with Stein getting less than 2% of the vote, I don't have much faith in a third party at the moment.
0 # kyzipster 2017-05-12 18:11
..if I was concerned with scoring the most 'thumbs up', I would find it easy to parrot the more popular sentiments here at RSN. I come here because the forum is stimulating and the content is good. Getting 'thumbs down' has become very predictable.

On more mainstream sites I'm usually the one arguing with so called 'establishment Democrats' which is interesting. Nobody has changed my mind much here but making posts helps to clarify my views.

I was noting after it was mentioned that I get at least one thumbs down almost immediately after making a post, no matter what I have to say. I'm pretty sure I know who it is, I find it to be adolescent and amusing.
+1 # John S. Browne 2017-05-13 01:05

The people who say that both of the primary parties are "exactly" the same, don't mean that there are no differences between them, but that they are both part of what is really a "one-party" system. Call it the "authoritarian fascist", or "corporate fascist", party. That they are both globalist and are turning the U.S., the West and the world into (a) totalitarian militarized fascist police state(s), and eradicating True Liberty(ies), Freedom(s) and Rights.

[Well, perhaps most of them don't agree with me on all of this; because, unfortunately most, "Amerikans" at least, don't realize that the NWO, one-world government "conspiracy FACT" is indeed just that, a fact, and/or that it really exists, which it most-definitely does, and is successfully enslaving the West and the world under corporate fascism and the elimination of all outward True Liberty(ies), Freedom(s) and Rights.]

As you may have noticed, my comments often if not usually get more or less automatically voted down and into the "red", too. There are so-called "right-wing" shill-trolls who don't comment here, and/or regular commenters, who take great false-pride in arbitrarily voting down certain people like myself who, because they don't face a lot of the real truth of what is really going on, they can't stand and vehemently disagree with on certain things, particularly those "conspiracy FACTS" that they live in complete avoidance and denial of, and adamantly refuse to face are facts, no matter what.

+1 # John S. Browne 2017-05-13 01:28

(Continued from above)

I more or less automatically vote your comments down because they are so typically naive, prove that you are typically deep in avoidance and denial of many facts, and because you and all those like you are part of the problem in this world due to the brainwashing that you adamantly refuse to come out of (in other words, you adamantly refuse to wake up and come out of the "matrix" control grid that has you and most people, especially "Amerikans", so firmly in its "vice-grip" ("grip-of-vice" ?) of a grasp, being "Pied Pipered" and/or "lemminged" over the edge of the cliff to their complete destruction, blind all the way to their demise as the willfully blind being led by the willfully blind that they are.

I admit, I can't stand the willfully ignorant. I know I should have more compassion for you who are such, but I've lost all patience with you. Like I've said, you can't be reasoned with, and I've wasted so much time trying to wake you up that it's absurd. Oh, I will keep, mostly futilely, trying to do so because it is one of the duties of those who are awake; but I will NOT kiss your butts, or try to be "nicey-nice" to you, and instead will share "tough love" with you, "shake you by the shoulders", and "slap you in the face"; because "phonilly" mollifying you and "in nice ways" trying to wake you up, certainly doesn't work. Sure, the "tough love" way probably won't work either, but I can't tolerate the mollycoddling of willful idiots.

+1 # John S. Browne 2017-05-13 01:49

(Continued from above)

But don't take it entirely personally. There are other peoples' comments here that I also more or less automatically vote down, as they do mine. I confess, sometimes I bother to read their comments, and sometimes I don't, whether I automatically vote their comments down or not; but, when I read their comments, it's usually another complete waste of time. Some of them I have gone "back and forth" with here in the past, but we have made a usually-unwritt en decision to usually not respond to eachothers' comments anymore, or as little as possible. They think whatever they think of me, and I think whatever I think of them, and we "agree to disagree" and both find it fruitless to argue with eachother.

And that is what is best for you and I to do as well. You have admitted that no one is going to change your mind, and no one is going to change mine, so it would be smart to not "go 'round and 'round with eachother. I refuse to be lulled back to sleep and into the mass-insanity fantasy world that you and all of your ilk live in, and you refuse to be awakened and set free by the REAL truth, so it is ridiculous to go 'round in vicious circles with eachother. As I've already said, you and all those like you can't be reasoned with; and you likely see me and people like myself (falsely) in a similar fashion, aka "close-minded". And your ilk are definitely close-minded, that's for sure, so it is fruitless to try and convince eachother of anything.

+1 # John S. Browne 2017-05-13 02:16

(Continued from above)

By the way, there are other people here, rather than Danny (aka "Radscal"), who are automatically voting your comments down as well, for they also recognize that you are willfully-blind . So, it is not only me, or that one person who you think it is if it isn't me. You see, we have developed a discernment that enables us to recognize people like yourself without having to read through your comments completely. As an example, when you and your kind, even by allusion, defend TLOTE, and/or state that you did, or would have, voted for "Hitlery", etc., that are some of the clear signs to us that you are still fast asleep and completely brainwashed, that you adamantly refuse to accept that doing such things makes you complicit in and partly responsible for all of the evils the evil people you vote for perpetrate while in office, et cetera (including mass-murder in illegal wars of aggression, etc.), and that you are (still?) refusing to come out of the mass-insanity fantasy world control grid, shed all of the brainwashing, and be set free by the truth.

+1 # John S. Browne 2017-05-13 02:18

(Continued from above)

In other words, we who now see through all of the brainwashing that we ourselves used to be brainwashed by, and through all of the lies that we used to tell ourselves, much if not completely as your ilk do, can no longer tolerate those lies and that brainwashing, and find it extremely difficult to be patient with such willfully-blind people who literally prefer the fake fantasy world that most people live in, over True Reality. We can now understand why the people who tried to wake us up when we were still brainwashed and dumbed-down, got so impatient with us. It makes perfect sense to us now, and we can't blame them. We realize what willful-idiots we were, and we greatly thank whatever higher power that we have been set free by the truth.

-1 # kyzipster 2017-05-13 13:16
I am humbled once again oh enlightened one. We're nothing but light and energy anyway, who gives a F if a few more people die because of lack of access to health care.

Maybe if I chant One World Order on a mountain top for 40 days and nights I will evolve even more.

It's my belief that there are many truths and Trump and his fan base are exposing the dark shadow of our culture in a way we've never experienced. It's probably a necessary evil if we hope to ever conquer it as we move out of the Kali Yuga and into a better age.

Our economic system will continue to devolve no matter who is in office and it needs to collapse but I still think it's bull chit to insist that the details don't matter because 'both sides are exactly the same.' If that helps you to feel superior and different, more power to you.

As the empire collapses slowly, people still need to eat and it would be a sweet thing if fewer people went bankrupt because of medical bills.

Understanding that both sides are exactly the same in too many ways and that the system is beyond corrupt and is controlled by forces more powerful than the peeps has become a very basic belief in the collective psyche. Any curious teenager can understand the basics. It's not a sign of ignorance to still give a chit about a half million people losing Medicaid, I think it's quite the opposite.
+1 # John S. Browne 2017-05-13 23:40

And what exactly, "rhetorically-q uestioning", makes you think I don't give a crap about people? You are obviously, and typically, twisting my words around, misinterpreting them, and/or jumping to conclusions that I believe things that I did NOT say. E.g., I never said that the details don't matter, and neither have those who have insisted that we're really under a "one-party" system.

And how did we get onto the subject of health care? I wasn't talking about that subject matter at all. Are you confusing me with Danny or someone else?

You ignore and don't respond to most of my very accurate points, and then you replace them with stuff I wasn't talking about. That's how, among other ways, but mostly by completely ignoring and not responding at all to what your brainwashing won't let you face, you deflect from at all dealing with important truths that you need to completely stop living in total avoidance and denial of.

Geez, where did I bring up the health care debacle? I don't discuss it here. I believe that both "'Odrona' 'Care'" and "(T)rumps" non-health-care plan are crap; and I further believe that we should only get "Medicaid for All" (not Medicare for All, because Medicare only pays a small percentage of what Medicaid pays; or, instead of either, we should only get Single-Payer of some sort that truly, fully and completely works; and isn't, like "Odrona's" admitted sellout, a sellout to the insurance, medical and pharmaceutical fascist industry(ies).

0 # John S. Browne 2017-05-14 14:24

Let's call them the "insurance-medi cal-pharmaceuti cal complex".

Or "medical-indust rial complex".

-2 # kyzipster 2017-05-17 08:14
One of my arguments against the 'both parties are exactly the same' propaganda is the loss of Medicaid for a half million people in my state. Democrats are the only thing standing in the way of this loss and voters have made them a minority. You responded to my argument by calling me 'ignorant', etc etc.

I didn't pull it our of my asp.
+12 # 2017-05-09 08:29
thanks for these comments. i think hillary attacking ANY major bloc of citizens was a terrible mistake, indicative of an elitist sensibility that was a major root of her defeat.

i also think all this stuff about Flynn & the russians is a major diversion. it's not going anywhere. so what if he didn't listen to obama, etc. etc.

what really matters is that the apparatus for stealing elections and permanently entrenching a fascist gerrymandered congress is going once again unquestioned.

thank you again for all these comments. a good civil discussion in which we can all agree or not, but still move the dialogue ahead.
+7 # humanmancalvin 2017-05-09 08:33
We the people, the patriots of this country who are staunch Liberal Democrats who wish to see fairness & humanity for all had better band together & stop bickering if we ever want to see this country become what is nothing but BS now, The Greatest Country In The World." Right now we are as far away from that slogan as Trump is from truth telling.
The EC must be abolished, gerrymandering must be abolished, true vote rigging as the sort that transpired in Ohio in 2004 must be abolished, the Citizens United law must be abolished. That's a start but where are the figureheads leading the charge to turn these changes into reality? Someone must step up & begin to implement a mass movement so this country will be able to crawl it's way out of the swamped sewer it finds itself mired in as of this time. Where/who are you?
+2 # Radscal 2017-05-09 15:13
I think your question "but where are the figureheads leading the charge to turn these changes into reality?" is the point some of us are trying to make.

For well over a decade, some of us have been shouting about all these methods of election fraud, and yet no one in government is even admitting it's a problem, let alone doing anything about it.

When we saw Bernie ignore our pleas to deal with the evidence, and even state bluntly that there was no rigging going on, many of us felt the earth sliding out from beneath our feet.
+13 # wrknight 2017-05-09 10:33
That's truly absurd. Unfortunately, Jill didn't get enough votes to get a single elector in the electoral college and with only 1 percent of the popular vote, she didn't get enough votes to deprive Hillary or anyone else of any electors.

Maher and others need to figure out that Hillary defeated herself and the Democratic Party leaders need to look in the mirror for its problems.

As they said early in the campaign, "it was Hillary's election to lose". And she succeeded.
+3 # 2017-05-09 11:31
The gradual and and then recent complete drop of politicians into the bowels of public service has driven, and given permission to all manner of public figures to follow them down. It's a huge reversal directly impacting social mores and values that were meant to be for the good of all, now entirely for the material advancement of a few, leaving the rest of humanity in the dust. This could very well the darkest of the Dark Ages and about which we can probably never protest loud enough or long enough.
+2 # Radscal 2017-05-09 15:15
Mao said that the personality of a people reflect that of their leaders. And yes, I do believe that the behavior of USians is more and more reflecting those of our "leaders" in politics, business and the media.
+4 # SusanT136 2017-05-09 14:01
It's pathetic for anyone to blame Hillary's loss on Jill Stein, Cornel West or any other leftie who didn't advocate for Hillary. Beyond ridiculous.

Rather than saying so sarcastically that those clueless lefties need to get a clue, maybe the corporate, big-donor-drive n Dems need to wake up and start listening to the people. Hillary was a very weak candidate, pushed by the DNC and the corporate donors. She won the nomination, but not without some questionable shenanigans.

All of Jill Stein's voters could have voted for Hillary and she still would have lost.

I hope that Bill does an equally vitriolic rant about Crosscheck and all the other ways that voters were actually denied their vote. This is how Trump got elected, and how horrible candidates who have lost and will continue to lose the popular vote will continue to get elected. Focus on the problem, Bill, not a scapegoat. And stop pushing corporate Dems down our throats. I did vote for Hillary, but not without a lot of pain and disgust, and I understand how some couldn't quite bring themselves to do it.
+2 # NAVYVET 2017-05-09 15:39
It's what I would expect of Bill Maher, and it's why I don't pay for, or watch. cab;e TV--or ANY TV, for that matter.
+6 # dotlady 2017-05-09 23:03
Hillary's campaign caused me to lose completely any allegiance I once felt for the DNC. Bill Maher is another disappointment. I'm waiting for a progressive movement led by a sharp forward-looking team with a passion for fairness that will change the corrupt payola election system that has coated our efforts thus far with molasses and move the country sensibly forward.
-2 # Robbee 2017-05-10 08:36
the hearts of bob and harv are in the right place - CrossCheck is an evil, repuke conspiracy designed to deprive black and latino voters of their votes!

as say bob and harv 08 May 17 - "In 2016 nationwide, 29 GOP Secretaries of State used the Jim Crow CrossCheck program (as reported in Greg’s “Best Democracy Money Can Buy”) to strip countless thousands of black and Hispanic voters from registration rolls in states that decided the Electoral College."
- critical to our very democracy is one major fact - "but-for" CrossCheck hill would have won!

but from this one, major fact it does not logically follow that "Had Stein NOT run in 2016, Donald Trump still would have become president."

jillie discouraged hill-as-a-conti nuation-of-obam a enthusiasm, PLUS! in michigan-wiscon sin-pennsylvani a, had some stein voters voted hill instead, hill would have won!

robbee fears that bob and harv need to conduct a statistical analysis before declaring, as fact, that - "Had Stein NOT run in 2016, Donald Trump still would have become president." - sorry guys, no cigar!

moreover, nate silver conducted a statistical analysis that showed how comey's pre-election announcement ALSO "but-for" caused hill to lose!

in sum, to say, as bob and harv do, that other factors WERE INSUFFICIENT TO "BUT-FOR" CAUSE HILL TO LOSE - is far-fetched belief system, designed to pander to simple-minded readers who don't like to think too hard! - because they drink pro-stein, anti-hill koolaid!
-1 # spenel334 2017-05-10 22:38
Great, you just listed the real reason Hillary did not win, even though she did: the voting treachery by the Republicans. We all know about it, so someone tell us what to do about it. Sending
editorials to newspapers won't help; they won't print any. But if thousands of Dems write to various forms of the media, eventually
they will have to do something about it. Or we might send letters to Dem stars: Samantha Bee, Steven Colbert, and so on, entreating them to talk about the voting issue on their programs. Samantha Bee did a short piece on how ex-cons can never again vote in Fla. It was good for a start, but in itself only a needle in a haystack. Multiply that and maybe the public would find out what happens at every election. There has to be many more ideas out there. What are they?
0 # spenel334 2017-05-10 22:48
and thank you, Susan. I hadn't read your contribution when I wrote my own, about Republican voting treachery. We need to start by asking every (Bill Maher) to take as much time as necessary during their tv programs, to feature the reality of voting treachery, its vast extent across the country, its effects, etc. Maybe refer the public to Greg Palast's investigation. We can't just sit back and let it happen, or we will be watching ourselves lose elections indefinitely.

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