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Moore writes: "Trump is not president until he's given the oath of office at noon on Jan 20th. So we will continue to fight and hope to find a legal, nonviolent way to stop this madness."

The filmmaker Michael Moore, near a closed factory in Flint, Mich., where his father worked. (photo: Fabrizio Costantini/NYT)
The filmmaker Michael Moore, near a closed factory in Flint, Mich., where his father worked. (photo: Fabrizio Costantini/NYT)


We Are a Broken Country at This Point

By Michael Moore, Michael Moore's Facebook Page

21 December 16

 

  1. Hello rest of the world! My fellow Americans are asleep right now so I thought we could talk privately and maybe I can explain what happened yesterday.

  2. Hillary Clinton won the election on Nov 8 by 2.8 million votes over Donald Trump. Which is to say, she lost. You are correct, this is not a democracy.

  3. Back in the 1700s, in order to get the slave states to join the USA, the founders gave those states "extra votes", letting them count their slaves but not let them vote.

  4. So yes, it is ironic that this racist idea called the Electoral College has, 225 years later, ended up benefiting the candidate who spewed racism hate.

  5. Trump is not president until he's given the oath of office at noon on Jan 20th. So we will continue to fight and hope to find a legal, nonviolent way to stop this madness.

  6. Ok, people are starting to wake up in the US. I wish I could give u better news. As bad as it seems, I'm sorry to tell you, it will be worse. We are a broken country at this point.
e-max.it: your social media marketing partner
 

Comments   

A note of caution regarding our comment sections:

For months a stream of media reports have warned of coordinated propaganda efforts targeting political websites based in the U.S., particularly in the run-up to the 2016 presidential election.

We too were alarmed at the patterns we were, and still are, seeing. It is clear that the provocateurs are far more savvy, disciplined, and purposeful than anything we have ever experienced before.

It is also clear that we still have elements of the same activity in our article discussion forums at this time.

We have hosted and encouraged reader expression since the turn of the century. The comments of our readers are the most vibrant, best-used interactive feature at Reader Supported News. Accordingly, we are strongly resistant to interrupting those services.

It is, however, important to note that in all likelihood hardened operatives are attempting to shape the dialog our community seeks to engage in.

Adapt and overcome.

Marc Ash
Founder, Reader Supported News

 
-101 # dbrize 2016-12-21 09:44
Recently Mr Ash informed RSN readers that the many repetitive articles concerning unproven assertions of Russian intercession in the election were necessary because they "newsworthy".

I suppose an opportunity to read another whine from MM fits his rather loose definition of "newsworthy", but perhaps a suitable period of mourning is past and there may be more constructive avenues to pursue.

There might even exist in "newsworthy" land some serious, cogent, well dissected analyses of where we are, why we are where we are and reality based suggestions for the future.

But hey, why suppress a good whine?

As a service to fellow RSN readers I offer the following with the disclaimer that while I don't endorse EVERY word of the article, I find it far more thought provoking and deserving of serious deliberation than anything our editors have recently presented from our resident propagandists, Moore, Reich and several others.

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/fellow-liberals-tired-of-you/
 
 
+73 # MD426 2016-12-21 11:05
Hi, I read the article you recommended. I'm afraid I didn't find it thought provoking or deserving of serious deliberation. It was indeed a big whine in itself, just like you are accusing MM of.
There have been times when I've enjoyed your posts but for quite a while now I've wondered why you continue to come here and persevere in your own whine, which has become repetitious.
It would be nice if you would stop complaining and insulting writers points of view and start contributing some ideas that truly are thought provoking or deserving of serious consideration.
 
 
+12 # dbrize 2016-12-21 11:17
I find your reply a reasonable presentation of your opinion and appreciate you taking the time to read the piece.

Of course we will both reserve the right to disagree. I saw the piece as worthy of a bit of self reflection and I'm sure you read my disclaimer upon presentation.

I will likely disappoint you as for your last paragraph proposal, but it won't be for a lack of effort. And I'll probably continue to hang out here because they haven't kicked me off yet and I enjoy the battle.

I am not being facetious, I do appreciate your comment.
 
 
+2 # MD426 2016-12-21 11:46
One thing I'm sure of .... You will not disappoint me. Frustrate me on occasion. but not disappoint me.
 
 
+26 # Henry 2016-12-21 12:43
You may enjoy the battle, but we don't.
 
 
-25 # jtatu 2016-12-21 13:19
Henry,
Is dbrize hurting your feelings? Perhaps you need a safe place?
 
 
+7 # librarian1984 2016-12-23 07:10
I think this is hilarious. Have people here totally lost their sense of humor?

If so, the Trump presidency is going to give you an ulcer.
 
 
+33 # RMF 2016-12-21 14:03
Ha-ha...I read that American Conservative article -- it appears to say the religious right has all the answers -- Salem witch trials here we come!
 
 
0 # dbrize 2016-12-21 14:48
Quoting RMF:
Ha-ha...I read that American Conservative article -- it appears to say the religious right has all the answers -- Salem witch trials here we come!


I am unsurprised you missed the point. Wherever her search leads her is her business, the fact that she has rejected what passes for the "left" might be reason for some reflection, which in turn may help to reach those "deplorables" that will be needed, like it or not, in future elections.

Judging from the quantity of overreaction and defensiveness evidenced today, I fear the bumpy ride is going to continue.
 
 
+15 # Radscal 2016-12-21 16:51
To be fair, she didn't reject the "left." She's fed up with the liberal class.

It disgusts me that "liberals" like HRC can be termed "the left" by anyone.

Nor does she even imply that the "religious right has all the answers" as RMF falsely claims. She's not even sure she can accept the whole supernatural thing, though she is clearly searching for moral consistency.
 
 
+6 # dbrize 2016-12-21 16:54
Quoting Radscal:
To be fair, she didn't reject the "left." She's fed up with the liberal class.

It disgusts me that "liberals" like HRC can be termed "the left" by anyone.

Nor does she even imply that the "religious right has all the answers" as RMF falsely claims. She's not even sure she can accept the whole supernatural thing, though she is clearly searching for moral consistency.


Thx for the catch. I have reworked, hopefully with an improved modifier.

RMF has selective reading habits among some other dance routines.
 
 
+13 # kyzipster 2016-12-21 18:36
She equates a belief in the supernatural with being a 'real' Christian. Clearly she is getting her definition of what a 'real' Christian is from a conservative, fundamentalist perspective.

Plenty of Christians don't believe the Bible to be literally true. Plenty of more liberal denominations don't insist on this belief so there's no conflict. Just a book written by humans, inspired by their god and Jesus. A virgin birth, nothing more than a myth.

This may be one more example of how conservatism has defined so much. There are millions of more progressive Christians in this country. They're reasonable, sane and boring. They're not involved in politics much and don't drive internet traffic so they're nearly invisible, allowing the extremists to be the face of Christianity in the US.
 
 
-10 # ericlipps 2016-12-21 19:05
Quoting Radscal:
To be fair, she didn't reject the "left." She's fed up with the liberal class.

It disgusts me that "liberals" like HRC can be termed "the left" by anyone.


Posted like a true zealot.

Liberals have always been despised by the radical left. The former want to reform the system; the latter want to see it burn, along with all its supporters (i.e., anyone who DOESN'T want to see it burn).
 
 
+10 # librarian1984 2016-12-21 22:49
You just make stuff up. Clinton wanted to reform the system? Maybe to make the graft direct deposit.

So you've decided that we are 'radical' left because we don't agree with you -- and further that our 'true' desire is to 'see it burn' -- along with all the liberals?

You're a real piece of work. Not a good piece of work either.

Hillary Clinton is not a radical, neither is she 'left'. She and Bill, centrists at best, but actually neoliberals, marched the DP right into Republican territory.
 
 
+12 # Radscal 2016-12-21 23:42
Couldn't have replied better. Thanks.
 
 
+7 # librarian1984 2016-12-22 03:33
You would have replied better. I just got there first.

Regards.
 
 
-5 # kyzipster 2016-12-22 10:13
I won't nitpick who is 'left' or 'liberal' or whatever, but you and others chastise for even bringing up right-wing extremism and its danger to society, its propaganda getting in the way of a progressive movement taking hold.

You show no tolerance at all for even a Sanders supporter who sees some value in trying to change the DNC or voting against what so many of us believe to be the greater of two evils. We're intellectually weak or something, for not agreeing with you and your pack on every single point. You're as elitist as they come.

You're an intolerant lot and you think we're intolerant for calling out the alt-right and the rest. For having a healthy emotional reaction to what just played out with this election.

You think you can reach Trump's base for help in bringing about a progressive revolution by not bringing up xenophobia and the rest but you can't even treat a Clinton voter with an ounce of respect?

You might want to consider your own identity and how that can hold us back as much as any other division in the culture.
 
 
+3 # GreenBee 2016-12-24 19:41
So are Progressives the "radical left" in your view?

Some things need to be burned like pay-to-play, big -money-in elections, and policies that promote theocracies. All things conservatives seem to do their best to foster. And the NeoLibs like the first two.
 
 
-2 # Depressionborn 2016-12-26 21:10
The DemocRATs have not been this upset since 1863 when the Republicans freed all of their slaves.
 
 
-5 # Reductio Ad Absurdum 2016-12-21 12:39
Well, said, MD426; I think it's safe to assume you speak for the majority.
 
 
+25 # kyzipster 2016-12-21 11:06
I took the bait. For anybody else who is curious, make sure you read it to the end.

Spoiler alert

This secular, liberal Bay Area lawyer converts to Christianity. Apparently with a fundamentalist bent as opposed to a liberal Anglican or Presbyterian or some other more reasonable denomination since she's struggling with what it means to be a 'real Christian'. A literal belief in a virgin birth and all of that. An antidote to her childrens' two dimensional liberalism. Solid and unchanging. Ah yes, conservatism.

If you're really so tired of whiny liberal snowflakes dbrize, I suggest you do the same. The mega-church would be a change of scenery. They seem to know all that is wrong with 'merica, not much argument in that crowd. Nope, nothing two dimensional about that.

I spent 10 years in SF, it got on my nerves big time, I also loved it and I miss it. It's a culture unto itself and doesn't reflect my little liberal neighborhood in a red state where 'trans rights' as mocked in the article, is such a serious issue that most trans people flee the state to maintain their sanity and physical security. Just as gay men and lesbians fled to SF and the like 30 years ago.

If some college kids at Berkeley pick up that banner to find a little meaning, I'm glad that somebody is doing it.
 
 
-7 # dbrize 2016-12-21 11:26
I note you have some differences of opinion with her. As do I. Doesn't mean it isn't worthy of a read. It might be telling that her struggles with "fitting in" are of less significance than yours.

Weren't you the one "whining" about "elitism" the other day?
 
 
+18 # kyzipster 2016-12-21 11:38
Liberal eltitism is very real, I just find it hilarious that the writer's solution is to explore Christian fundamentalism. A big distinction from more liberal Christianity that doesn't question whether a person is a 'real' Christian. No shortage of that in the Bay Area, it's not like she's in the heart of Mississippi.

I point out the elitism at RSN because of the hypocrisy. You and some others engage in your own elitism while criticizing liberal elitism. Often coming off as believing you're intellectually superior to all who might interpret the facts differently. Seems transparent.

The article is a very poor choice for a discussion imo, and I have plenty of opinions about the identity politics of the left, and right.

I also find it strange having lived in SF, that the writer paints it as close to 100% 'secular'. It's the most spiritual place I've ever lived. Far more than mid-America where I live now. Neighborhood churches of every denomination closing their doors regularly while the mega-churches are thriving. Of course a conservative would see SF as 'secular' because Jesus doesn't come into it when so many people are pursuing Eastern and other religions.

I suspect the writer has adopted this 'secular' label from the propaganda she's been reading, and that you've shared with us. We 'godless' liberals are hopeless.
 
 
+4 # dbrize 2016-12-21 12:01
Well zipster, you see trees, I see forest, perhaps we are both correct and it's all in the interpretation. Now for myself, I did not consider her exploration of Christianity the main point at all. I found her fallout from current neoliberal thought of main interest. Particularly if one is to realistically self assess reasons for the present state of the left.

As for Christianity, I remain a card carrying agnostic in the vein of Mencken who once said to the effect, "the beauty and pageantry of a solemn High Mass is too wonderful a spectacle to be ruined by doctrine".

Or as Sinatra reportedly said in more vulgarian terms, "I don't care what gets ya through the night, God or Jack Daniels". If the poor woman finds consolation I am not one to disabuse her.

Now, having spent some time in SF on happy occasion, it's many charms cannot be denied. If, certainly a legitimate if, they are politically ahead "by decades" one might self reflect as to why the remainder is so far behind.

I offered something I found reflective on the question with a disclaimer that I need not repeat oops, guess I just did!

Nonetheless, your opinion is noted and reflected by others. I remain a happy warrior and content in acknowledging your disagreement.
 
 
+3 # kyzipster 2016-12-21 13:03
I believe I see the trees and the forest, I neither approve nor condemn identity politics, I attempt to discuss the dynamics of something that simply exists, mostly online. Something that is not going away. That is interpreted as participating, or something. I can't quite figure it out.

Perhaps it's you who does not recognize cause and effect and who benefits the most from identity politics. Not only have conservatives defined liberalism, they have managed to make us believe that Trump won because we're whiny snowflakes.

As a loose knit group, progressives seem unable to distinguish between the politically correct noise coming largely from millennials and progressive politics, because conservatives define us by every single thing in the culture that they reject.

If we refuse to recognize the power that right-wing America still holds over voters with their Culture War, I don't see how we will ever move beyond 'identity politics', because they identify us and they will continue to do so.

There is a larger truth beyond our identities but this doesn't make these distinctions less real and conservatism does hold back progressive ideals.

Conservatives define Sanders with every liberal identity that's mentioned in this article you shared just as they do Clinton and that is a very big obstacle. It doesn't matter what a candidate says or doesn't say.
 
 
+3 # dbrize 2016-12-21 13:31
Your numerous thoughts on the problems with some "progressives" and their inability to fully appreciate the factors you mention would make an excellent subject for Writing For Godot.

There one is a bit freer to delve into their philosophical ideas about the why's, wherefores and what to do's concerning our current political dilemma's.

I encourage you to utilize it. I would read them with great interest. Perhaps even leave a comment or so.
 
 
-4 # kyzipster 2016-12-22 10:02
Tks for the suggestion. That is a unique option here at RSN.
 
 
-2 # kyzipster 2016-12-23 10:20
Lots of thumbs down! A badge of honor. I guess I should contribute something to Godot.
 
 
+2 # kyzipster 2016-12-21 13:35
I understand how this plays out with the opposition, liberals projecting onto conservatives, but it's a false equivalence to say that both sides are exactly alike. Liberals have been in a defense posture for decades.

Consider Black Lives Matters. They have been clear that they're non-partisan. They are challenging the entire establishment. No politician running for national office wants to have to deal with them if they can avoid it, they push a lot of buttons. They shut down a Sanders rally successfully.

They are automatically identified with Clinton, Sanders, Obama, anyone on the 'left', along with the 'white privelege' debate that has grown very prominent with their movement.

Why is that? Because the other side plays on the resentments that voters harbor with their culture war.

This played out with LGBT rights for decades. Dems didn't want to have to speak to it if they could avoid it, it's only very recently that they try to benefit because public opinion has finally changed.
 
 
+7 # Radscal 2016-12-21 17:14
"...Mencken who once said to the effect, "the beauty and pageantry of a solemn High Mass is too wonderful a spectacle to be ruined by doctrine"."

LOL. I can relate. For decades, the last mass I attended was a Midnight Christmas High Mass - the most spectacular of all.

A dear friend and I took some LSD and timed it so we would be flying high when the pompous circumstances got going. One of the best shows I've ever seen.

He and I had so much fun that we took to replaying that at various religious services. One that was truly mind-blowing was a "Holy Roller" service at Moody Memorial.

But the only ones where we felt we were enjoying it along with the parishioners (instead of outside observers) were black Baptist Saturday night services.
 
 
+4 # kyzipster 2016-12-22 09:59
Some people believe that some Christian ritual has ancient roots in ceremony where entheogens were used, lost in history. There's a religion in Brazil I think, a fusion of Catholicism and Amazonian shamanism, using Ayahuasca. They have a church in Portland, doing Ayahuasca legally. LSD would have made Catholic school far more tolerable.
 
 
+5 # Radscal 2016-12-22 17:28
Yep. Years ago I read a book that argued that the "visions" that many medieval European pilgrims had while traveling to sacred sites were caused by ingesting hallucinogenic mushrooms. Mushrooms keep well, so can be carried, and travelers would not necessarily recognize that a new one they found on the road was hallucinogenic.

There are entire branches of anthropology and now archaeology that study the use of various mind altering substances in cultures.
 
 
+3 # librarian1984 2016-12-22 21:54
I studied it a bit myself in college.
 
 
+3 # Radscal 2016-12-23 01:08
Did you study it experientially? ;-)

I sure did.
 
 
+2 # librarian1984 2016-12-23 03:10
Shucks. I guess we're both unfit to run for office now :-)

Remember warnings about flashbacks -- like that was a BAD thing!
 
 
+2 # Radscal 2016-12-23 20:03
Flashbacks were such a ripoff. I've been waiting 45+ years for that free high.
 
 
+6 # Radscal 2016-12-21 17:07
"...the writer paints it as close to 100% 'secular'."

Where does she do that? She clearly states that she was raised in a secular family, and most of her mentors and neighbors were secular.

She is clearly stating that she was raised in one "tribe" which she no longer identifies with.

She does refer to "liberal bastion of Northern California" which is a stereotype held by both "liberals" and "conservatives. " Having lived in Northern California for 45 years, I can attest that there are very "liberal" and very "conservative" people everywhere, and some areas are populated mostly by one sort or the other.
 
 
-3 # kyzipster 2016-12-21 18:47
Where does she do that? She clearly suggests that her entire social and work networks are 'secular'. I find that strange, I met countless people in SF who were into some kind of spirituality. Some quite passionately. Some might consider it the birthplace of Zen in the US.

I've explored several paths myself. I found it interesting that whatever I was into needed little explanation. The most informed population I've lived in when it comes to Eastern and pagan religions.

The whole article smells of the 'godless liberal' shtick. An implication that life has a deeper meaning beyond 'trans rights', and that would be Jesus.

I don't have a problem with criticizing the liberal tribe. I found SF to be sickening at times, the snobbery. I was treated as racist sometimes, just by association, being from the South.

Almost to a person, it was never a native Californian with an elitist attitude, transplants from mid-America.
 
 
+7 # Radscal 2016-12-21 23:52
I wrote, "She clearly states that she was raised in a secular family, and most of her mentors and neighbors were secular."

Children of some of my friends were similarly raised and schooled. They had little contact with other "tribes" in the SF Bay Area. That doesn't mean they didn't believe those "others" existed.

Nor did this author so imply. Though, as I also wrote, she did refer to, "liberal bastion of Northern California," which I noted is an inaccurate stereotype.

And yeah, there's no one so fervent as the recent convert. Since my wife is a native of SF, I've been close to multi-generatio nal Californians for as long as I've lived here. And few of them are as "tribal" about all that California stereotyping as the transplants.

I understand the same thing is happening now in Washington State, ironically by people who moved there from CA!
 
 
+5 # librarian1984 2016-12-22 03:35
I think ORians and WAians have been complaining about CAians moving north for at least a century :-D
 
 
+5 # RLF 2016-12-22 06:04
Who can forget "Don't Californicate Colorado" ?
 
 
+8 # revhen 2016-12-21 13:48
I am a Presbyterian with pretty conservative beliefs that result in pretty strong social actions. They are not incompatible. Look at the Gospels, particularly the first 3, and you'll see what I mean. Jesus had strong faith in the Father yet he championed the marginalized, the poor, sick, rejected. Check out Matthew 24:31ff. I was once pretty fundamentalist. Neither am I "liberal" in the sense that I'm ready to trot off to any seeming cause. I understand that MM has a pretty strong Catholic faith which leads him to take the positions he does.
 
 
+4 # Radscal 2016-12-21 17:00
The author writes "Right now, I am struggling to accept the basic Christian doctrines (virgin birth, resurrection, second coming)"

Doesn't sound like she's buying into the supernatural at all, let alone a fundamentalist version of it.

As a non-theist for 1/2 century, I don't buy into any supernatural stuff either. But, I do see how the "tribalism" that both she and you refer to has both a draw and some positive aspects.

I also think the negative aspects far outweigh them. This is true regardless of what "tribe" an individual joins.
 
 
+2 # kyzipster 2016-12-21 17:53
I think you're responding to my post. I don't recall ever advocating for tribal politics. Simply acknowledging that it exists isn't suggesting that it gets us anywhere politically. I think it keeps us stuck.

What I've been concerned with are false equivalences. If we can't define the problem clearly, understand cause and effect, I don't know how we can move beyond it easily.

We can encourage people to stop playing the game but the game is inevitable when racism, xenophobia and the rest are used for political gain. Conservatives depend on the division and of course people are going to react. Telling people to 'stop it', isn't going to change much.

The post election debate often seems way off. All I want is clarity, an insistence that both sides are the same in every way doesn't cut it for me, I don't believe it.

Progressive politics continues to lose because we cannot define ourselves. I don't think that the extremes of political correctness, largely playing out at universities, should have anything to do with politics. LGBT rights are 'liberal' because conservatives reject us with toxic views, same with Muslims, immigrants, etc. This is the end result of 40 years of their Culture War. It can't be shifted easily and it's not really a two way street.

I'm not advocating for mindless insults or dehumanizing the opposition which often happens, but I understand the frustration, facts don't have much impact.
 
 
+7 # Radscal 2016-12-21 18:46
I was responding to your claim that the author is converting to a "fundamentalist bent" of Christianity. She's not even accepting the basic tenets of "liberal" Christianity.

You frequently refer to tribalism. Previously, I always put the term in quotes when responding to your comments on it (because I don't really buy into the belief that humans are a "naturally tribal" species).
 
 
+1 # kyzipster 2016-12-21 19:33
It sounds to me like she's accepting a fundamentalist definition of a 'real' Christian, a belief in the supernatural. Fundamentalism is literal interpretation of scripture regardless of denomination or politics. Perhaps it comes from hanging out on that website.

I'm not sure what 'liberal' Christianity means here. Are you saying it also requires a belief in the supernatural? I'm aware of non-fundamental ist sects or denominations. I was even encouraged in Catholic school at times to not interpret the Bible literally, nuns actually told us that the Bible's account of Jesus's miracles were only meant to be inspirational.

Of course this was the 60s and 70s and some of the nuns had a bit of a hippie flare. Much has changed.
 
 
+3 # Radscal 2016-12-22 00:04
How could one be a fundamentalist if one isn't even able to accept the "virgin birth, resurrection, second coming?"

And I used the term "liberal Christian" to differentiate them from the fundies. Those who accept the evidence for evolution and reject the teachings on homosexuality would definitely be in the "liberal" branch.

I generally accept anyone at their word if they say they are "Christian," even though many of them don't accept that many others of them are "real Christians."

Though I would say that a basic tenet of any Christian religion would be belief in the supernatural. If someone appreciates and tries to follow the teachings of the Christ described in the Gospels, but does not believe in the supernatural, then I'd say they're philosophical, not theological.
 
 
+1 # kyzipster 2016-12-22 09:46
In some ways, Christianity can be as individual as people are. I think there's an expectation of a belief in 'god', the supernatural, but not necessarily a literal belief in the resurrection, virgin birth and all the rest of the supernatural tales of the Bible. Even agnosticism is accepted by some liberal denominations.

I was taught by one nun that 'god' is beyond our comprehension so we shouldn't even try to understand. Almost identical to some Native American belief. Seemed open minded to not dictate what god is or isn't to school children.

By seventh grade all of the nuns abandoned us because of a conservative priest who took control of our school, they left and said they wouldn't return until he was gone and they did as promised. Then we were taught strict Catholic catechism. The RCC is a mess.

The only non-theistic religion I'm aware of is Buddhism. It gets confused with atheism but it means that an atheist and a theist can practice side by side with no conflict.
 
 
+13 # Jim Rocket 2016-12-21 11:35
It seems some of the regular readers of that site have better BS detectors than you do, dbrize:
"I humbly suggest that few if any of his dedicated readers...consi der themselves to be card-carrying liberals of the same ‘tribe’ this letter writer has so justifiably washed her hands of.

My impression is that she has been carefully approaching conservatism over the last decade and is now trying to step towards religion by disavowing a particularly heinous brand of secular materialism. Hence I felt that the title of the post was a little disingenuous."


This woman was never a liberal and has gravitated to a cultural group where her thinking is done for her.
 
 
-2 # dbrize 2016-12-21 12:14
Quoting Jim Rocket:
It seems some of the regular readers of that site have better BS detectors than you do, dbrize:
"I humbly suggest that few if any of his dedicated readers...consider themselves to be card-carrying liberals of the same ‘tribe’ this letter writer has so justifiably washed her hands of.

My impression is that she has been carefully approaching conservatism over the last decade and is now trying to step towards religion by disavowing a particularly heinous brand of secular materialism. Hence I felt that the title of the post was a little disingenuous."


This woman was never a liberal and has gravitated to a cultural group where her thinking is done for her.


How quickly your "impression" leaps into "certainty" as displayed in your final paragraph. Could you help us with investment advice and give the same certainty? Please.
 
 
-2 # Jim Rocket 2016-12-21 13:13
Now you're just being silly.
 
 
-1 # RMF 2016-12-21 14:14
Jim --- maybe she thinks she can make a buck off the right wing nut case/religious right upsurge. That potential has not been lost on quite a few other GOP opportunists, starting websites, hocking books, so why not in case of a seemingly unprincipled SF lawyer too.
There's money to be mined from the suckers and rubes. Maybe she sees herself as another Ann Coulter.
 
 
+10 # mashiguo 2016-12-21 11:59
The article is quite droll.
The search for meaning is an eternal human quest, hence the persistence of organized religions.

I wonder if anyone sees the parallel with her 'bargain' with the church and Faust's bargain with the devil?
His life, too, was meaningless in its success, leading to the same tragedy she is headed for.

Somehow the delusion is that if you call it "jesus" you can ignore the fact that you are damning yourself to the very same hell.
 
 
+4 # dbrize 2016-12-21 15:04
Quoting mashiguo:
The article is quite droll.
The search for meaning is an eternal human quest, hence the persistence of organized religions.

I wonder if anyone sees the parallel with her 'bargain' with the church and Faust's bargain with the devil?
His life, too, was meaningless in its success, leading to the same tragedy she is headed for.

Somehow the delusion is that if you call it "jesus" you can ignore the fact that you are damning yourself to the very same hell.


My dear mashiguo:

My purpose in suggesting this article had nothing to do with religion. It was for reflection as to WHY an intelligent person on the left became an apostate (secular of course). That we might find in some self reflection, ideas as to why the message on the left isn't heard the way many wish.

You will note I CLEARLY noted I did not endorse everything said. If TAC wishes to promote a religious philosophy along with it, that is their business and not mine.

You might also note the tenor of knee jerk resistance and rejection out of hand by many (though thankfully not all) of my critics and agree with me that we have a way to go in reaching out to those we will need to attract.
 
 
+3 # librarian1984 2016-12-21 15:47
I'm amazed at your patience :-)
 
 
+1 # mashiguo 2016-12-22 06:43
Quoting dbrize:


My dear mashiguo:

My purpose in suggesting this article had nothing to do with religion. It was for reflection as to WHY an intelligent person on the left became an apostate (secular of course). That we might find in some self reflection, ideas as to why the message on the left isn't heard the way many wish.

You will note I CLEARLY noted I did not endorse everything said. If TAC wishes to promote a religious philosophy along with it, that is their business and not mine.

You might also note the tenor of knee jerk resistance and rejection out of hand by many (though thankfully not all) of my critics and agree with me that we have a way to go in reaching out to those we will need to attract.


They need to go through their stages of the grieving process. That cannot be short-circuited.

I am not optimistic they will accomplish this in time to organize for the next round of 'self-defence against fresh fruit'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U90dnUbZMmM

But my larger point is that her solution is as superficial as the community she seeks to escape. Given that simple fact, one has to question whether the superficiality she imparts to everything else is her own projection?

etc.
 
 
-2 # kyzipster 2016-12-22 10:56
What many of us are pointing out is her attraction to a fundamentalist way of thinking. I can't speak for anyone else, but I see no problem with finding meaning in Christianity or any other religion but the article is suggesting that liberal ideology is incompatible with this pursuit. I think that's outrageous and clearly the POV of brainwashed conservatives. Only they can define Christianity, not Unitarians. We secular liberals are 'baby killers'. There's a lot of subtext in her letter, open to interpretation for sure, but perhaps you're not open to what others are seeing.

Many believe that liberalism is more compatible with the true meaning of Christianity; trans rights, the separation of church and state and all the rest. That doesn't even need explaining.

Why does the writer seem to equate hanging an American flag in her living room with going to church? She's not just exploring Christianity, she's gravitating towards an entire culture it seems, where politics, 'patriotism' and a particular brand of Christianity are inseparable. Yes, that's her business but it's hardly a good example of what is wrong with the liberal tribe. As if a flag and church attendance are some kind of antidote to the 'two dimensional' thinking of liberals.

There are many articles providing critique of progressive identity politics right now. That's a very important debate to have after the shake up of this election and I'd like to see more of it at RSN. This was a poor choice imo.
 
 
+4 # dbrize 2016-12-22 13:26
You have made this same point on each of your multiple posts to this thread. Understood, you don't find it challenging. Neither is redundancy as my critic MD426 pointed out early in the thread.

And as you, he found my contribution less than compelling. Fair enough.

Now with due respect, might I suggest you do as I'm sure MD426 is as well, find and present us some improved versions of these "many articles providing critique of progressive identity politics".

It is certainly a topic worthy of discussion. Carry us forward.
 
 
-2 # kyzipster 2016-12-23 10:19
"You have made this same point on each of your multiple posts to this thread."

And you keep defending the article as worth considering.
 
 
+4 # dbrize 2016-12-23 11:04
Quoting kyzipster:
"You have made this same point on each of your multiple posts to this thread."

And you keep defending the article as worth considering.


"So's your old man" is the best you can come up with?

That you fail to acknowledge the spirit of self reflection with which I clearly presented the article and my own disclaimer as somehow an a priori threat to whatever beliefs you may possess is understood. FWIW, you obviously are not alone. -:) May this fact bring you solace.

Happy Holidays zipster, may your pursuits bring you peace and contentment.
 
 
-2 # kyzipster 2016-12-23 11:21
It's not all of that, I'm only defending my repetition. Happy Holidays to you! Enjoyed the discussion.
 
 
+6 # revhen 2016-12-21 13:05
"I may vehemently disagree with everything you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it." Although he didn't say it directly, Voltaire was credited. debrize, you and I seem to disagree at every point. But we have something in common: We both made somebody's troll list. So let's enjoy our commonality while we disagree vehemently.
 
 
+7 # dbrize 2016-12-21 15:25
Quoting revhen:
"I may vehemently disagree with everything you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it." Although he didn't say it directly, Voltaire was credited. debrize, you and I seem to disagree at every point. But we have something in common: We both made somebody's troll list. So let's enjoy our commonality while we disagree vehemently.


Good old reevhan. :)

We may agree on more than you think. Keep swinging away.
 
 
+1 # Depressionborn 2016-12-23 08:56
mnany thanks -94 # dbrize 2016-12-21 09:44
you have much company here where we live.
 
 
-51 # DogSoldier 2016-12-21 09:45
Ah gee Mikey, don't cry. The rest of the world doesn't care, they're all hoping that we fall flat on our face so that they can laugh at us. They're mostly hoping that we don't drag them under with us like Captain Ahab. Oh well, no empire lasts forever. Why don't you and Chris Christie have a donut eating contest, that ought to cheer you up.
 
 
-63 # 2wmcg2 2016-12-21 10:00
We are not a broken country but one that has chosen to go in a different direction. If Trump screws up, maybe we will return to what we have now. Try to be at least mildly hopeful.
 
 
+16 # MD426 2016-12-21 11:07
Can you describe for us, in specifics, the "different direction"? And what you see in that direction to be hopeful about?
 
 
0 # Depressionborn 2016-12-23 09:03
Quoting MD426:
Can you describe for us, in specifics, the "different direction"? And what you see in that direction to be hopeful about?

try this MD:

live and let live while minding your own bussness.
 
 
+13 # Jim Rocket 2016-12-21 11:10
Ha ha! Good one! It's the same direction but now the pedal is through the floorboards.
 
 
+8 # Realist1948 2016-12-21 14:22
It may be more accurate to say that we are a majority urban nation, whose president-elect was chosen by majority-rural voters. This is largely a result of the Electoral College, which was set up when most Americans lived on farms.
 
 
+32 # backwards_cinderella 2016-12-21 10:26
RSN has been taken over by the trolls.
 
 
-14 # dbrize 2016-12-21 10:56
Quoting backwards_cinderella:
RSN has been taken over by the trolls.


Quick! Hide the children and bring out the blinders!

Farafalla? Where are you when we need you???
 
 
-4 # Reductio Ad Absurdum 2016-12-21 12:45
Said the troll.
 
 
+15 # librarian1984 2016-12-21 11:38
I would not call them trolls, but yes, it does seem to suffer from an invasion of those who do not appreciate progressive values or reason -- as evidenced by the bizarro vote aggregates.
 
 
-1 # jtatu 2016-12-21 13:46
Reason? Look at MM's point #3 and tell me the connection between the number of slaves in a State and the principle that each State gets two senators and thus 2 electors. MM is an unreasonable subversive. Has he just now realized that the US is a federal republic consisting of 50 otherwise sovereign States and does not pretend to be a pure democracy?
 
 
+1 # ericlipps 2016-12-21 19:08
Actually, the "three-fifths compromise" (surrender, really) was a separate issue from the Electoral College, an additional protection for the slave states.
 
 
+2 # Radscal 2016-12-23 20:09
Well, they're related. The "3/5 compromise" added significantly to the number of House Representatives in slave states, and each one of them equaled an Elector. That was the whole point.
 
 
+27 # olpossum 2016-12-21 10:27
Yeah, we chose that. She only won by 2.8 mil.
 
 
+7 # mashiguo 2016-12-21 12:01
If you haven't been screaming to the high heavens about the electoral college since you learned about it in elementary school, you have no point.

Is anyone awake yet to its dangers?
 
 
+12 # librarian1984 2016-12-21 12:07
To be more succint, is anyone going to do anything about it NOW?
 
 
+7 # mashiguo 2016-12-21 13:42
Indeed, given the current position of the National Popular Vote Initiative, there is no reason not to organize and get this passed nationwide.

Why do we never hear about it?
Why is Michael Moore moaning instead of advocating?
Why do we hear nothing but complaints about Trump being an infantile narcissistic capitalist?
etc.
 
 
-1 # kyzipster 2016-12-22 12:36
"Why do we hear nothing but complaints about Trump being an infantile narcissistic capitalist?"

Not to worry, Trump and all of his baggage is getting normalized as quickly as possible.
 
 
+1 # mashiguo 2016-12-22 15:43
It has nothing to do with normalization.
It is equivalent to complaining that the rain is wet.
It is nothing more than an infantile tantrum.
Everybody knows it.
So what?
It is not a strategy for moving forward.
 
 
-2 # kyzipster 2016-12-23 10:14
It has everything to do with normalization. Electing him president makes this normalization inevitable. Everybody knows it, but soon many will forget about it. We'll all get very used to it.

Infantile tantrum? Bull chit. There is no clear strategy for moving forward with such massive support of all that Trump represents, that's why so many people have legitimate concerns. Fact and reason no longer matter but silence would be the worst reaction.
 
 
+41 # MainStreetMentor 2016-12-21 10:40
Join me in a silent protest:

Join me in openly declaring a grass-roots effort in naming January 20, 2017, a National Day of Mourning. The day America officially begins its’ decline into chaos and anarchy. I will be wearing a black arm band on that day – I hope you join me.
 
 
+28 # reiverpacific 2016-12-21 10:54
Quoting MainStreetMentor:
Join me in a silent protest:

Join me in openly declaring a grass-roots effort in naming January 20, 2017, a National Day of Mourning. The day America officially begins its’ decline into chaos and anarchy. I will be wearing a black arm band on that day – I hope you join me.


Its been suggested in more than one quarter that a GENERAL STRIKE be activated including no shopping, no eating in daylight (like the Muslim Idul Fitri) and turning off or refusing to buy all US media.
 
 
+13 # MainStreetMentor 2016-12-21 11:44
Yes I've read those suggestions. I hope you join this silent protest, too.
 
 
+7 # librarian1984 2016-12-21 11:45
I think this is a way to be heard but it should be well defined and clearly linked to specific legislation and activities.

One thing the histrionics of the last month has shown is that we are angry -- and sore losers. Our protests will not be taken seriously for a while now. It would have been much smarter to be reasonable losers and then our later protests would carry more weight.

Anyway, too late now. In the future we should unite in strikes and boycotts -- hit them in the pocketbook, which seems to be the heart of many conservative leaders.

Personally I think a general strike is less effective than focussed relevant actions but I'm not a professional activist and could be wrong. For example, let's say we had one day or one week where no one bought anything at Walmart or didn't put gas in the car. Things like that are easy to advertise and coordinate, send a clear signal, hurt someone's bottom line and aren't a hardship to most people who want to participate.

As time goes on or the protests become more visceral, it would be natural to up the actions -- but a few simple, clear shots across the conservative bow might be a good way to start.
 
 
+11 # MD426 2016-12-21 12:21
Indeed! And I will continue to be a thorn in my Senator and Representatives sides by calling and emailing regularly concerning specific issues. I've never felt that they care an iota for my opinion ... but I do think they keep count.
 
 
+9 # Henry 2016-12-21 12:49
Quoting librarian1984:


One thing the histrionics of the last month has shown is that we are angry -- and sore losers. Our protests will not be taken seriously for a while now. It would have been much smarter to be reasonable losers and then our later protests would carry more weight.


1) We didn't lose an honest election because there wasn't one.

2) We've been — and continue to be — WAY too nice!
 
 
+8 # librarian1984 2016-12-21 15:38
By 'nice' I believe you mean pushovers? Agreed. I used to think they were weak but I've come to believe that at least part of the time it's a cover story as they collude with establishment GOP in government theatre.

They won't fight unless it's THEIR pensions or kickbacks on the line.. That's the problem with having this OLD old guard in there.They are too tired for what we need right now. We should be thinking ahead but they are taking a nap. Progressives are the ones with energy and passion. They should be in charge.

We lost as honest an election as there is these days. No matter .. we still look like sore losers. But let's not let the problems go again. Let's tell our representatives we're SO afraid of Russians we have to move to paper ballots. THEN what will their excuse be?

Regards.
 
 
+6 # Radscal 2016-12-21 17:26
I concur fully on your proposed tactics, and the reasoning for them.
 
 
+47 # Jack Radey 2016-12-21 11:10
When I was a kid growing up during the 1950s, I was very proud of my country. I read a lot about the American Revolution, and how people rose up to fight for democracy. We weren't taught much about the genocide of the Native Americans, or about slavery, or about the machinations of the Founders to guarantee that the wealthy land and slave owners would rule over the common people. My mother was a refugee from Germany, my father's family had immigrated to avoid being forced to serve in the Austro-Hungaria n army in WWI. I have continued to consider myself a patriot, and proud of some of my country's spirit, and especially I have felt it was my duty to be active in the issues of the day. My wife, whose ancestors arrived shortly after the Mayflower, and one of whom signed the Declaration of Independece, wants to flee the country. I think we should stay and fight, but I'm getting mighty old and decrepit. If it comes to it, I'm willing to go down fighting. But having seen young Americans of all colors standing up with Occupy, Black Lives Matter, Bernie's campaign, etc. I have hope for my country. But we are in such deep trouble it is really hard to comprehend. I fear it is going to come to blood. A lot of blood. And I'm not sure we're really prepared for that. The lesson of Hitler's rise to power is just HOW FAST the Nazis were able to consolidate all power. While the opposition was divided and uncertain, they struck. Then it was too late.
 
 
+13 # MillValleyMaven 2016-12-21 11:21

"...the machinations of the Founders to guarantee that the wealthy land and slave owners would rule over the common people."
For an in-depth analysis of how that happened, read "White Trash. The 400-year Untold History of Class in America" by Nancy Isenberg
 
 
+18 # MD426 2016-12-21 11:43
I am also old and decrepit, from the same era, and I feel exactly as you do. Thank for your post. It makes me feel less alone.
 
 
+9 # librarian1984 2016-12-21 11:52
I enjoyed hearing your story and agree with both your dread and your optimism.

I think this is a magnificent time for activism. It is dark now but there will be a backlash. If people truly believe that Trump will fail, then stick around for the show -- and be ready with a better plan to present to voters in the coming elections.

I DO disagree with the rivers of blood prediction. Maybe that will happen but not necessarily, and certainly not if we can help it, is my thinking. In the last century or so major change has come about ONLY through peaceful and nonviolent resistance. Look at the pipelines we've shut down.

Good luck to you and your wife.
 
 
+20 # MD426 2016-12-21 12:04
Hi Librarian, As for the Rivers of Blood. And this is just an observation, not even an opinion, in fact I would probably agree with you that it is unlikely ... but I've heard those same words from VERY unexpected sources in my little world lately. Two things that raise my concern are Trumps very deliberate courting and enlisting of white supremacists who, as a group have no problem with violence and vigilantism. And Trumps promise to re-militarize the police. These are Ominous to say the least. Additionally, his willingness to incite violence at his rallys is very Third Reichish. It's given me pause to say the least
 
 
+5 # librarian1984 2016-12-21 12:19
Hi, MD426. I hear it too, and don't wish it to become a self-fulfilling whatever. It's a battle we can't win, or would win when there is some shocking death(s) -- while peaceful actions have been the most effective recently.

I think demonizing Trump is a mistake because it might encourage unstable people to act. Frankly I am relieved and a bit surprised no one attacked any of the candidates this past year.

Remember, we heard some of the violence (the Chicago rally in particular) was started by Clinton operatives, and the Portland destruction was by Democrats (maybe). Both sides are capable of violence.

Cooler heads should tone down the rhetoric. Principled action will achieve more.

Nice 'talking' to you -- cheers!
 
 
+2 # Henry 2016-12-21 12:52
Quoting librarian1984:

Remember, we heard some of the violence (the Chicago rally in particular) was started by Clinton operatives, and the Portland destruction was by Democrats (maybe). Both sides are capable of violence.


"We heard" doesn't mean "they did."
 
 
+2 # librarian1984 2016-12-21 15:50
There is video. oops.
 
 
-6 # ericlipps 2016-12-21 19:12
And the video makes it clear that Clinton's people were the instigators? Somehow I doubt that.
 
 
+5 # librarian1984 2016-12-22 03:38
Eric, I'm pretty sure I could bring the people to your door and have them tell you everything they did, with video, and you wouldn't believe it.

You're like a human doorstop.
 
 
+3 # oakes721 2016-12-21 16:47
"Pulling a Fast One" Rushing bad bills through while simultaneously endlessly delaying those things which would benefit the common good ~ "Fast-Tracking" a padded proposal with strings attached. Fast, loose talk, incomplete sentences which do not explicitly promise or expose solid plans but do manage to slander others in his wake.
 
 
+6 # Aliazer 2016-12-21 11:20
The travesty of this article is that it bemoans one while hailing the other!!

Doesn't Michael Moore realize with either one or the other this nation would find itself still coping with usurpers and BS artists???
 
 
-27 # rseale@gbsinc.com 2016-12-21 11:24
This is so Stupid. You lefties need to let it go. Michael - to be more accurate Hillary won California but Trump won the other 49 states by a 1.5 million vote margin. How about we see what happens the next 4 years. In fact I will go so far as to say the next 8 years as I believe Trump will easily win in 2020 and Mike Pence sill then win in 2024. Merry Christmas
 
 
+14 # Jim Rocket 2016-12-21 11:40
So you think Trump's cabinet picks are are heading in the right direction? Clearly he cares a lot about the little guy. LOL.
 
 
+8 # revhen 2016-12-21 13:51
Indeed, they are heading into the right direction. The far right. For example, a Secretary of Education who wishes to destroy public education, a Secretary of Health that wants to destroy health care for millions, an Attorney General who's against civil rights, and so it goes.
 
 
+8 # librarian1984 2016-12-21 12:00
rseale, It's difficult to say this early if DT can win a second term. He will not get an opponent like H. Clinton again. But I have serious doubts about Pence ever becoming president. We'll see.

I heard some pundit refer to the Democrats as a 'regional' party. It was a shocking statement but it seems true. For many years we thought of Republicans as a southern bloc but look at the electoral map. Especially with the collapse of the 'blue wall', Dems are confined to the coasts and some cities.

We can reverse the trend but for now it's shocking -- I hope shocking enough to get more of US off the couch and from behind our monitors :-)

Peace, comrades.
 
 
+1 # Jim Rocket 2016-12-21 13:17
It's not unlikely that Pence will be president because it's likely that Trump will get bored and a year or two and quit. As long as he's got an excuse to be in front of an audience he doesn't need the grief of being president.
 
 
+3 # librarian1984 2016-12-21 15:51
ha Good point. Probably non of us can predict the next four years!
 
 
-2 # kyzipster 2016-12-23 13:16
Reverse trend? Some cities? This trend has been well established for years.

Democrats win almost every urban area in the country, including the South. Almost every rural area in the country votes with Republicans including Washington, Colorado, Oregon, New York and much of California.

The two little blue dots in my red, Southern state represent the largest concentrations of population, the most diverse and the largest contributions to the state economy and tax base. We consistently vote with the East and West coasts in national elections.

Democrats have no problem reaching the urban working class, those 'former factory workers.'

It's an urban/rural culture war it seems to me, I don't see much value in framing it as the coasts against the rest of the US. I don't know what the solution is but there are millions of frustrated progressives in the South, the rust belt and elsewhere. Of course you dismiss most of these millions as 'Hillary people'.
 
 
+1 # librarian1984 2016-12-23 16:20
kyz, I don't know if you purposefully misconstrue the things people say or if you genuinely don't comprehend the points they make, but I have learned myself -- and it's evident from recent threads -- that it's a consistent tactic in your critiques. It's a fruitless and frustrating exercise to engage with you.

Have a nice holiday.
 
 
-2 # kyzipster 2016-12-24 13:26
Whatever, I don't see the Democratic Party as regional. I see it as urban, even in the South this is true. They have no problem appealing to the urban working class, these 'former factory workers'. I see a lot of false analysis out there.

"It's a fruitless and frustrating exercise to engage with you."

Look in the mirror, the feeling is mutual I assure you.

You have projected many attributes to my belief system that do not exist. You're as divisive as most, only you can define who is and who is not a 'progressive'.
 
 
+7 # librarian1984 2016-12-21 11:28
Downvote me all you want but I am tired of this. When exactly do we move to something more constructive?

While we've been devoting our energies to the worthless electoral coup -- Clinton lost FIVE electors (four others tried but were rebuffed or replaced) while Trump lost TWO -- Pelosi and Schumer slipped back into leadership. Bad use of our time and energy.

BTW does anyone notice that, unlike the past two weeks, there is not one article about Russian hackers? The media has dropped the issue. The CIA is back to lurking silently. That should tell us that the issue was used only to gin up support for the EC action.

Please be skeptical. It's not easy but it is essential in moving forward.

It's sad to see Moore wallowing in panic mode. That is not very useful.
 
 
+3 # sea7kenp 2016-12-21 11:57
I agree with one part of what you said: "Please be skeptical".
 
 
+3 # librarian1984 2016-12-21 12:20
Good enough! Let's start with that :-)

Do you disagree that the Russian hacker hysteria seems to have disappeared? Don't you find that suggestive?
 
 
+4 # Radscal 2016-12-21 17:43
It's still lurking. I have suspected all along that part of its goal is to shutdown independent news sources.

I see today that families of the victims of the Orlando shooting event are suing Facebook, Google and Twitter to get them to further censor what is posted there.

They are attacking the legal precedent that online sites cannot be held responsible for posts by "anonymous" commenters.
 
 
-2 # ericlipps 2016-12-21 19:15
Quoting librarian1984:
Good enough! Let's start with that :-)

Do you disagree that the Russian hacker hysteria seems to have disappeared? Don't you find that suggestive?

Actually, I think it's quieted primarily because it's dawned on people that it simply doesn't matter, because Trump will still get to be president no matter what turns up.

Or maybe it's because Congress is (supposedly)goi ng to investigate the matter.
 
 
+3 # librarian1984 2016-12-21 23:00
If I were a political spin doctor I would absolutely ADORE you.
 
 
+8 # mashiguo 2016-12-21 12:07
I noticed about the Russia articles.
That's why I left and came back on Tuesday, I predicted it.

I work in the performing arts. I can tell a preparation for a climax when I see one. That whole schtick was so obviously orchestrated it could have been Beethoven's 10th symphony.

And it was all based on an rumor based on anonymous reference to something that no one has seen.

Let the DNC diel in its own detritis.
We need principled people in a progressive party.
 
 
-3 # Jaax88 2016-12-21 15:59
Sometimes you are not principled yourself.
 
 
-2 # Jaax88 2016-12-21 15:52
Maybe we move on when you stop encouraging a take it easy attitude on trump "as he will fall of his own weight" and bringing up useless peeves of yours. You are wrong on the media having dropped the Russia hacking problem (see the comment below.) So what about the media, do they tell you what to believe? They are not the real source of the real facts. In any case it is not for the media to drive the national agenda, it is for the president and Congress. As I see it they are doing it, altho that McConnell and many other Repugs should not be trusted to help expose any GOP wrong doing or collaboration.
 
 
+2 # librarian1984 2016-12-21 16:25
Jaax, you've made it clear you're determined to swoon and palpitate. Go ahead. Just please do it with less moaning and whinging.

I am not sure why you think it's unpatriotic to stay calm. What has all your hysteria got you, brother? An ulcer? The time is coming to fight but you're like a dog that gets all worked up .. then has to take a nap when the hunt is on.

I also don't know why you insist on questioning everyone's intelligence and love of country. You do realize we each get to have an opinion, right? Reasonable people can disagree.

I find your attitude very unAmerican. Politics is always ugly but beneath the flap and noise of politicians and yellow journalists the people know the score. I lived in a city where I could get on the bus with blacks, Greeks, Syrians, Koreans, Chinese, straights, LGBTQ, vegetarians, carnivores, singles, families -- we all lived within blocks of each other, shopped together.

The people are okay. It's the pols and the msm that keep driving the relentless fear and divisiveness, and you seem to fall for it every time, insulting numerous people and questioning their motives and judgment. You're persistently uncivil but almost always self-righteous.

You require some serious introspection imo. I hope you don't bully the people around you. I get the impression that asking you to be kind is a bridge too far but could you try to be respectful?

I don't see hacking stories. You let the msm scare you.
 
 
+3 # DongiC 2016-12-21 18:41
Didn't Jaax flunk his Rorschak test? He also insults many people questioning their motives and judgment, and is persistently uncivil and, yes self-righteous. He is in need of serious introspection. He's kind of a bully and is not kind. Oh, he lets the msm scare him.

It could be worse, Jaax. We could all be living in 17th century New England and librarian 1984 could be the presiding judge at your trial for excessive palpitation heightened by whining and moaning. She has been appointed by the crown as arbiter of correct behavior. See, how lucky you are?
 
 
+1 # librarian1984 2016-12-21 23:06
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but kudos for creativity. I have a feeling that in 17th century NE *I * would be the one on trial -- and Jaax would gladly have me hung.

I'm tired of Jaax insulting everyone, calling them stupid and unpatriotic. Most other people here manage to discuss, and even disagree, without resorting to that. If you enjoy it or choose to defend it that's your choice. It doesn't get us very far though.
 
 
+2 # moby doug 2016-12-21 12:09
The Russian hacking has not been dropped by the media. Broadcasters, pols, and newspapers are currently publicizing Trump's crazy geopolitical enemies list, which doesn't even include Russia (with its thousands of nukes pointed at US) and North Korea! No doubt we can thank the insane General Flynn, Trump's cockamamie "security adviser," for the asinine list. Flynn, of course, is one of many close to Putin's Poodle who are doing Putin's bidding. Reminds me of the beginning of the Bush43 Administration, when Cheney and Cru took terrorist attacks off the top of the list of security priorities..... thus opening the door for 9/11. On another subject, why do so many of you respond so fully and respectfully to conservative flamers like Dbrize? She only deserves to be ignored. These flamers merit no response and should remain in their own conservative ghettos. Don't make this thread a seminar for reactionary jackasses!
 
 
+2 # librarian1984 2016-12-21 15:57
What?! dbrize has been nothing but respectful even in the face of taunts and insults.

If you want to ignore somebody that's probably a good idea. Better than insults.

I find Admiral Kirby, from 'our' side, equally disturbing. He was the one spitting and fuming at the convention, and the one who said we should send Russians home 'in body bags'.

We all have our nut cases. Maybe we could set up a cage match. I'd watch that.
 
 
+11 # alnbarthel 2016-12-21 13:01
We have been a broken and very violent country for a long time. The violence administration after administration has been unleasing around the world in our name since at least the Cuban revolution until the present is a sign of our complete moral and ethical background. And the violence being done to our brothers and sisters here at home by various levels of government is just another sign of our moral breakdown Trump is just the last player on the stage on which corporate greed reigns and real people are just disposable pawns.
 
 
+2 # DongiC 2016-12-21 18:47
Let's hope he is not the final player on the stage of corporate greed. But, we do seem to be heading in that direction.
 
 
+1 # revhen 2016-12-21 13:54
Folks, let's wait and see what kind of "evidence" the FBI and CIA have. The fact that they agree is astounding. Back in 2001 they refused to share information with each other thus 9/11.
 
 
+7 # dusty 2016-12-21 13:57
religious fundamentalism is the acceptance of ignorance as knowledge and it is not harmless. look to the wars being fought on both sides by religious nut cases who claim to respect their religious teachings about the value and sanctity of life while slaying others of different religions.
 
 
+7 # Radscal 2016-12-21 17:51
I see essentially every war as economic. The 0.01% use religious and other ideologies to rouse the rabble to fight their wars for them, but very rarely do those "leaders" start wars for religious reasons.

Here are some definitions I go by that you may enjoy:

Faith is belief without evidence.

Blind faith (fundamentalism ) is belief DESPITE the evidence.
 
 
+5 # Old Uncle Dave 2016-12-21 13:59
Without the bullshit by Clinton's DNC, Sanders would have been the Democratic nominee and won the general election.

Apparently MM thinks it was OK for Clinton to win the nomination by breaking the rules but not OK for Trump to win the election according to the rules.
 
 
-4 # ericlipps 2016-12-21 19:17
Quoting Old Uncle Dave:
Without the bullshit by Clinton's DNC, Sanders would have been the Democratic nominee and won the general election.

Apparently MM thinks it was OK for Clinton to win the nomination by breaking the rules but not OK for Trump to win the election according to the rules.

Horseshit. You keep whining that Clinton "broke the rules," but what you really mean is "Bernie didn't win, so the nomination MUST have been stolen!"
 
 
+2 # librarian1984 2016-12-21 23:11
Plenty of people have linked you to solid evidence from reputable sources.

She stole the nomination. The odds she did not are 76 billion to 1, as determined by professional statisticians. I guess that puts you in the same camp as climate change deniers -- no evidence reaches you.
 
 
+4 # lorenbliss 2016-12-21 15:48
Seemingly lost in MM's ongoing hissy is the hideous truth that, should Trump somehow be blocked, his successor might be Pence -- an outspoken Dominionist theocrat who would not hesitate to put us under the Christian version of Sharia.

Picture a nation in which abortion is illegal under any circumstances; where women are officially agents of the Devil and misogyny is given the force of law; where homosexuality, adultery, environmentalis m and any number of other alleged "sins" are punished by death, as is "irreverence" (i.e., refusing to submit to the religious authorities); where failure to have your children baptized at birth is not just heresy but treason and giving aid and comfort to the ("Satanic") enemy; where science is officially subservient to "biblical Truth"; where "witchcraft" is again a capital offense, etc. ad nauseam.

And -- yes -- given the number of Dominionists already in Congress, the judiciary and the bureaucracy (especially the police and military), this is at least as possible as any of the Democratic (sic) Party's schemes for overthrowing the election.

(Disclosure: two of my colonial ancestors, mother and daughter Margaret and Mary Blisse, were tried as witches in Connecticut c. 1648. They were strikingly beautiful women -- also beautifully independent and successful farmers -- thus were envied accordingly. Both beat the rap -- though given modern total-surveilla nce technology, I gravely doubt my kinfolk and I could do likewise under Pence.)
 
 
+4 # DongiC 2016-12-21 19:02
Re your disclosure. You have rebellion and resistance in your genes. Keep a low profile around Dominionists; we need your knowledge and your wit in the struggles ahead.
 
 
+5 # lorenbliss 2016-12-21 21:48
@DongiC: Thank you.

It is not just rebellion and resistance that runs in my genes but so-called "psychic" powers as well -- "so-called" because I don't believe in the "supernatural," merely in what Soviet science, freed from the religious oppression that still strangles its capitalist counterparts, documented as simply less commonplace human abilities (albeit surely more common amongst females than males), abilities that have been feared, tabooed and suppressed since the advent of patriarchy and are damned as "witchy" (or "deluded") even now.

Plus despite our Anglo-Norman name (originally "de Blez"), DNA studies have proven we are about 95 percent Celt, mostly eastern Highland Scots -- who themselves are hybrids aka "mongrels" descended from the Scythians and other Peoples of the Steppe. Thus submission and surrender are simply not in our blood.

Which is why, though I may talk of fleeing the country, I am more likely to stay and resist. After all, though I am approaching my 77th year, there remains that Oath I swore in 1959 when I enlisted in the Regular Army: to defend the Constitution "against all enemies foreign and domestic."
 
 
0 # DongiC 2016-12-22 10:53
Psychic powers like remote viewing, out-of-body ex[eriences, healing, especially burns, helping spirits cross to the other side for starters. Sounds like some of your ancestors were celtic shamen, Perhaps, some females, People with these powers did not get along well with the Christian church. I guess the Christians could not stand the competition.

FYI, both the Russians and the USians are doing research on developing these psychic abilities. Anything to get an edge.

Finally, the people who could demonstrate a mastery of the above powers were called shamen and were held in high esteem in their various tribes. They almost always worked for free.
 
 
+1 # oakes721 2016-12-21 16:28
Few of the comments have addressed the subject of Moore's article. Wasn't the president-selec t just described as a master of changing the subject ~ taking it to a lower level?

The complexity of the fix may seem too big to fail. With the ongoing corporate media accomplice to the never-ending, full-length coverage of a blasphemer compared to the never-beginning coverage of the most popular candidate, going back to primary selections.

It puzzles me that we can uncover so many criminal acts ~ then simply move on, ignoring how corrosive those stolen rewards are to our good name and to the societies on Earth in which we live. Some criminals are forced to repay or attempt to undo the damages they've caused. No doubt Trump will sue the USA into bankruptcy if forced out of office.

His cabinet choices have already indirectly broken all his promises to every worker. Their records reveal his self-serving intentions, as do his own. I think it was Henry David Thoreau who said that we sometimes stumble over the truth, but quickly get up, brush ourselves off and go hurriedly on our way. There are already criminal cases against our resident-elect, are there not? Multiple elements of corruption intertwined: vote suppression, gerrymandering, 'broken voting machines', stopped vote recounts, or any combination should land him in the big house, not the White House. Have they been forgotten, settled, postponed forever?

Before accepting another 'Bum's (Bush)Rush'...
 
 
+8 # Radscal 2016-12-21 18:50
Yeah, I'm hoping many Trump supporters will realize he sold them out. I further hope they are less forgiving than Obama and Clinton supporters, and so will protest mightily.
 
 
+6 # dbrize 2016-12-21 21:34
Quoting Radscal:
Yeah, I'm hoping many Trump supporters will realize he sold them out. I further hope they are less forgiving than Obama and Clinton supporters, and so will protest mightily.


Exactly. And the Hillbot crowd will welcome them with open arms. >:-)

Maybe it is third party time. Think it's going to get pretty nasty in the Dems.
 
 
+4 # librarian1984 2016-12-21 23:33
It seems the Dems are hopeless, though I am loathe to surrender the field to neoliberals. Bernie is there, and Gabbard, to fight them, and we can support them from outside the party.

The neoliberals keep condemning us as wanting to 'compromise with racists' but of course that's nonsense. It's the neoliberals who've been triangulating with the right for twenty five years.

We need to TALK to the right, not compromise. We need to fight them when they're wrong, but that entails communicating clearly what our disagreements are.

The people we need to compromise and make deals with are the Independents -- many of whom were Sanders supporters and/or millennials and people who feel disenchanted with both parties.

Another fertile field might be the 40+% who don't vote. I think THAT's where we find our third party people.

Of course, if there were any justice, Hillary's neoliberals would move to the GOP -- but they're not that honest. It's easier to cow the DP and take over the DNC.

I agree with lorenbliss that a GP takeover is problematic, but a brand new party takes time and money.
 
 
+2 # dbrize 2016-12-22 08:47
I reference my comments to wrknight a day or so ago. You will note my thoughts on third party possibilities. My comment to rads was semi-facetious. We speak to each other in code.
:-)

Quoting wrknight:

"dbrize, those are great suggestions. But you can't make it happen, I can't make it happen and no amount of letter writing, parading or shouting will make it happen with the current cast of characters in Congress and the White House.

Before you can even start making those changes, you have to change the players, and you can't change the players until you either change the two dominant political parties or grow a third party to challenge them."


Yes. It requires multi-tasking and a few alliances on key issues with folks you may have disagreements with on others.

There are probably 20-40 House GOPers who would support a new Gl-St, reigns on the national security state, rollback on corporate power and end of "(un)free trade agreements.

How many House Dems would join them? How many would buck Pelosi and her capos? There are good people on both sides of the aisle, but it's hard to see that when we are busy protecting the tribe.

I have no problem with a third party but trust me, it's expensive as hell, the state party apparatchiks place every possible obstacle in the way of ballot access and force third parties to spend disproportionat ely simply to get on the ballot.

We can't wait that long.
 
 
+3 # Radscal 2016-12-22 17:43
"We speak to each other in code. ;-) "

We do?

How about having some pizza for about an hour?

Do you think I'll be better at dominos on pasta than I was on pizza?

;-)
 
 
+4 # dbrize 2016-12-22 19:18
Quoting Radscal:
"We speak to each other in code. ;-) "

We do?

How about having some pizza for about an hour?

Do you think I'll be better at dominos on pasta than I was on pizza?

;-)


Got it. Let them figure that one out.

I've been ducking so many shots on this thread I'm thinking of switching to swahili.

:)
 
 
+4 # Radscal 2016-12-23 01:20
LOL. One thing that seems apparent is that most of the fire you're taking are from the more "moderate" types. The more radically leftists seem to discourse with you more respectfully.

Which I may be seeing as a result of "confirmation bias" since I firmly believe that people of all political bents actually share more than we disagree about, and if we better communicated, we'd come to many policy agreements.

ps. Those questions are quotes from the Podesta emails, and are part of why the suspicions of child abuse got the name "pizza gate."
 
 
+4 # dbrize 2016-12-23 08:34
Fun and frolic with RSN!

The "radical" leftists seem to actually understand the meaning of liberty and its significance vis a vis our constitutional rights and the first Ten Amendments. :-)

You may have missed my reply on another thread about my meeting with a guy who was active in the take down of Lawrence King. He pointed out that King became the fall guy for many higher ups. Much higher up. It is one of the most sordid, disgusting stories I've ever heard.
 
 
+3 # Radscal 2016-12-23 20:14
Yes on each count.

The higher ups are always protected, especially from child rape accusations. Prince Andrew was a "friend" of Jefferey Epstein.
 
 
+3 # librarian1984 2016-12-23 03:19
I am wondering if we don't actually need to start a third party. What's to keep us from being a voting bloc, more like AARP than the DP?

On the positive side we wouldn't need to worry about building and paying for a formal party. On the negative side we wouldn't be able to run candidates of our own. However I think there are such advantages to this that it's worth thinking about.

I'm not sure why you got blasted the past couple of days -- is it just this thread? You have been SO pleasant and so respectful in the face of some nasty responses that I don't know how you do it. I would have descended into barbarism already. Your parents must have raised you right :-)
 
 
+4 # dbrize 2016-12-23 11:29
Thx for the kind words! I must confess I can be testy and ascerbic but I try to save those qualities for the Henry's of the world. >-)

My maternal grandfather worked his life in a machine shop on the south side of Chicago where I spent many happy hours in his care. He and my father in law who self described as "just a dumb old dirt farmer" were two of the wisest, most decent men I've known. If I possess half their wisdom and common sense I will die a contented person. :)

Grandpa always reminded me I controlled the "off/on" switch in my brain and they can't make me angry unless I turn on the anger switch.

It has taken a long time for that to soak in, but I'm trying.

Best wishes to you and all our happy warriors!
 
 
+2 # Radscal 2016-12-23 20:20
Your voting bloc idea is fantastic.

If you have it in you, perhaps you can pick up an idea I was tossing around but never implemented.

Present every candidate for every office with a "Pledge" like Grover Norquist did. But the pledge would be to do everything possible to remove any opportunity for corruption: campaign donations, lobbying, post-office "consulting" payments, etc.

I find that almost all USians believe that corruption is a huge problem. I also believe that our government will never represent us until we cut them off from their big money sponsors.

The Pledge would cost almost nothing and lists of who signed and who refused would likely go viral, affecting voters.
 
 
+4 # rogerhgreen 2016-12-21 17:58
I value Michael Moore but when he says "We will continue to fight and hope to find a legal, nonviolent way to stop this madness" and that "We are a broken country at this point", I doubt his ability to be realistic. Deleting "at this point" would help. I think Chris Hedges, Morris Berman, Noam Chomsky, and the late Joe Bageant are more realistic. There is no peaceful democratic path past the control of our society by the corporate 1%, and the dead hands of some (most?) of our "Founding Fathers". I used to think there was, but our racism, aggression driven by American exceptionalism & manifest destiny, belief in the wisdom of businessmen and the solace of fundamentalist religion, and our pride in ignorance, are irreversible. Civilization is going, like in the Roman Empire ca. 300 AD. Neither Donald nor Hillary were our salvation, and probably not Bernie either.
 
 
+2 # DongiC 2016-12-21 18:56
What a hard hitting comment. I enjoyed reading it very much, especially the comparison with the Roman Empire ca, 300 AD.
 
 
+1 # mashiguo 2016-12-22 07:01
I suggest we are much more like the Roman Republic of 50 BC. We have yet to install an emperor and be subjected to all the abuses of that concentration of power.

We already have our version of the praetorian guard in the CIA. When they come out in the open and start auctioning off the emperor's position, as happened in the 200's, then we will have reached that status.

By 300 Diocletian had reconstituted the empire and it was on a pretty solid footing for the next century.

The evaluation of 50 bc instead of 300 ad is not a good thing. That means the civil wars lie ahead of us.
 
 
+1 # rogerhgreen 2016-12-22 11:58
Rightly or wrongly I am influenced by Charles Freeman's "The Closing of the Western Mind" and Morris Berman's "Dark Ages America: the Final Phase of Empire", "The Twilight of American Culture", and "Why America Failed: the Roots of Imperial Decline". And as I say, by Hedges, Chomsky and Bageant. It may be time to re-read Walter Miller's classic "A Canticle for Leibowitz" (which you can download for free).
 
 
+8 # Hey There 2016-12-21 21:13
A democracy? But neither Clinton or Trump are representative of the population as a whole.
They represent the goals of the rich by urging passage of laws that benefit the rich and harm the poor.The poor certainly don't wish to become poorer or the sick to receive health care only if they can pay for it or to have money spent on continuous wars, and to have education available for private schools draining money from the public ones or to have prisons that are run like a business populated by far too many with minor offenses.
It appears this is more in line of a monarchy rather than a democracy.
 
 
+4 # librarian1984 2016-12-21 23:43
Yes, I agree, and many are ready to blame the people as the problem -- they are ignorant, etc -- but there has been a conscious and systematic program of ruining the schools and keeping the populace divided. Our country would be much different if corrupt powermongers hadn't taken over long ago, gaming the system, draining resources from the country and writing legislation that consolidates their lock on everything.

The American people are actually pretty great, but our leaders are not worthy. We have been betrayed by them relentlessly.
 
 
+6 # lfeuille 2016-12-21 21:37
"5.Trump is not president until he's given the oath of office at noon on Jan 20th. So we will continue to fight and hope to find a legal, nonviolent way to stop this madness."

Michael, give it up. You are losing it. There is no legal, non-violent way to stop this madness.

The best thing you can do now is to join the fight for election reform, including abolishing the EC. You are famous. You may be able to break through the obstructionism of both parties who do not really want reform by going directly to the people.
 
 
+4 # librarian1984 2016-12-21 23:44
Agreed. I would much rather see Moore lend his voice to the worthy cause of election reform.
 
 
+4 # carytucker 2016-12-21 22:50
From an email to my wife,Part 1, the litany:
Dear Friends of justice and peace,
Given that:
•The Republicans now control all...branches of the federal government.
•Gerrymandering played a big part in (this control).
•The losing Party received...thre e million more votes than the winning Party.
•As best we can tell, the elections... involved assistance from Russia.
•Trump may seem extreme, but he...advocates (for) the...policies of the...Republica n Party.
•Not that the Democratic Party of our lifetimes has been perfect. Far from it.
•Our future is easily seen in Trump’s Cabinet appointments of billionaires and generals.
•For (most of us)voting is the only form of participation in the political process.(We play)little or no role in grappling with the great injustices which afflict us (e.g. climate change, nuclear war) and,which may (doom)this planet.
•Control of the economic system by rich and powerful corporations and individuals (produces...a growing)gap between the upper 1-2% and the rest of us, depriving millions of the...necessiti es of life. Encampments of the homeless are (commonplace).
•In recent years, we’ve seen uprisings in many poor African-America n areas. (Much)sympathy, but what has changed?
•There hasn’t been a moment during Obama’s presidency when the U.S. has not been at war.
•Some advocate another Civil War to ‘fix’ this miser(y)...but what a horror that would be.
•Democracy has been absent in this country for most of its history.
 
 
+4 # carytucker 2016-12-21 22:54
Part 2, a call to action:
The obvious question is: Will you come together with other ‘ordinary’ people to start planning some way for us to transform this country?
There’s no doubt that the majority want to see a ... different way of life, but just wanting is...useless... What is needed is doers. Two characteristics are required: idealism and realism. If either is lacking, we’ll fail.
Will you be one of the doers? And will you do whatever is possible to invite students? This appeal is going to a few thousand people. After I receive responses from people and see where they are located, I’ll choose the locations that make the most sense.
Please let me know if you wish to be invited to our first meeting in your state. And if you have found any interested students. I need to have some idea of the number coming so that I can find an appropriately sized room.
It goes without saying that we are not talking about a violent process of change. We Americans experienced very hard times during the Great Depression but rose out of those hard times peacefully, and we can do it again.
This involvement of the many is a major part of the process we have to plan for.
Bear in mind what the founder of the great Mondragon cooperatives said: “We build the road as we travel.” We’ll do the same.
Finally, this may seem difficult, but difficult does not matter, because it’s not only possible but also necessary.
 
 
+3 # carytucker 2016-12-21 23:00
Part 3, beginnings:At this early stage those in the church world who are invited to participate include:
•Social justice workers.
•Religious communities.
•Current and former Jesuits.
•Campus Ministers in U.S. universities, along with students whom they invite.
•Contact persons for Small Faith Communities and Social Justice Committees in churches in the U.S.
Contact persons for social justice organizations in the U.S. who are invited include members of:
•University faculty – environmental studies, political science, sociology, religious studies etc. Along with students whom they invite.
•The National Association for the Advancement of Colored Peoples (NAACP)
•The League of United Latin American Citizens (LULAC)
•Veterans for Peace (VFP)
•Farmers Associations
•Journalists associations
•The Women’s International League for Peace and Freedom (WILPF)
•Catholic Worker Houses
•Physicians for Social Responsibility (PSR)
•Educators for Social Responsibility (ESR)
Interfaith Power and Light (IPL)
•Call to Action (CTA)
•Religious groups
•Leaders of unions of the AFL-CIO and Change to Win in the United States.
•People working for peace and justice, individually and in groups.
In hope,
John Conner
PS You remember the story of the frog placed in gradually heating water which stayed as the temperature rose until it died. We can’t let that happen to us.
 
 
-1 # Depressionborn 2016-12-23 17:11
Part 3,???

Two choices: to be ruled by ourselves or by gov and it's bureaucrats. which do you chose, Caryt?
 
 
+1 # carytucker 2016-12-23 20:11
Quoting Depressionborn:
Part 3,???

Two choices: to be ruled by ourselves or by gov and it's bureaucrats. which do you chose, Caryt?

Democracy in its most authentic forms is opposed to any principle of rule. It concerns itself with acting in concert for the sake of the public thing.
 
 
+1 # mashiguo 2016-12-24 20:09
Quoting Depressionborn:

try this MD:
Two choices: to be ruled by ourselves or by gov and it's bureaucrats. which do you chose, Caryt?


I am a US citizen.
According to our Declaration of Independence, just governments are established by the consent of the governed in order to assure the inalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

In otherwords, you have posited an anti-American false dichotomy. The function of government to insure those rights and the common welfare is the starting point of what it means to be American.

What you want you can find in Somalia, where no bureaucrats will bother you about anything.
 
 
0 # Depressionborn 2016-12-27 20:10
notmreally # mashiguo 2016-12-24 20:09
 
 
+4 # lorenbliss 2016-12-22 01:24
"We build the road as we travel" reminds me of another road song, one sung by the soldiers of the Red Army, especially the horse cavalry, first as they cleansed their Motherland of Tsarists and the pro-Tsarist U.S. and allied invaders c. 1918-1923, then again as they cleansed the Rodina of the German invaders c. 1941-1945:

"O maidens fair, raise your eyes
Gaze upon the road we follow
Far and away the road goes winding
Look and see how merrily the road goes..."*

May such indomitable optimism be ours in the forthcoming struggle.

_________
*From "Song of the Plains," translation of "Полюшко-поле" ("Polyushka Polye") by Paul Robeson on "Songs of Free Men," (c) 1942.
 
 
+3 # librarian1984 2016-12-22 03:49
The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say.

Tolkien
 
 
+3 # rogerhgreen 2016-12-22 12:09
The Road for Morris Berman is to preserve as much as possible of what is valuable in our civilization, so that when the recovery comes some day (the "larger way" I guess) the future people won't have to start from scratch. This is similar to the theme of "A Canticle for Leibowitz". It seems appropriate that I am saying this to a librarian.
 
 
+4 # dbrize 2016-12-22 09:08
Going once more where angels fear to tread, I offer another interview which may or not be found worthwhile by our critical mass:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGUCmPNZyyg
 
 
+3 # mashiguo 2016-12-22 15:53
Oh my god.
THe world is coming to an end.
I agree with Tucker Carlson!

I will say it is nice to hear a Russia expert who is not buried in the past.
All the ones I have had currency with in academic institutions are running dogs for a new cold war.
 
 
+4 # dbrize 2016-12-22 17:15
The new order makes for strange bedfellows indeed. Wherever sanity, even temporary, can be found it is best we avail ourselves. It is not currently a growth industry.
 
 
+3 # librarian1984 2016-12-23 03:29
Lawrence O'Donnell interviewed Moore tonight. In the second segment Moore talked about this material and it was just as silly as it is here, but in the first segment he was good. He expressed anger at the Democrats, that we have the same old leadership and no sense of urgency even though the upcoming elections in 2018 and 2020 are critically important.

We could use his voice -- if he would get off the Trump-hating parade and devote himself to more meaningful criticisms. We need to keep our eyes on the Democrats as much as the GOP and Trump.

The DP and DNC are infested with entrenched neoliberals who are currently smearing Bernie Sanders. They do not admit any fault about the recent election and intend to stay in charge. They want to cling to their (impoverished) identity politics and ignore an economic message. We CANNOT LET THAT HAPPEN.

That cause would be a much better use of Moore's bully pulpit. Throw our bums out. Only when we do this can we mount an effective counterrevoluti on to Trump and offer worthy candidates in the upcoming elections.
 
 
0 # Depressionborn 2016-12-25 05:58
2 Chronicles 7:14New International Version (NIV)

14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
 

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