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Moore writes: "I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I gave it to you straight last summer when I told you that Donald Trump would be the Republican nominee for president. And now I have even more awful, depressing news for you: Donald J. Trump is going to win in November."

The filmmaker Michael Moore, near a closed factory in Flint, Michigan, where his father worked.  (photo: Fabrizio Costantini/NYT)
The filmmaker Michael Moore, near a closed factory in Flint, Michigan, where his father worked. (photo: Fabrizio Costantini/NYT)

5 Reasons Why Trump Will Win

By Michael Moore, Michael Moore's Website

24 July 16



I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I gave it to you straight last summer when I told you that Donald Trump would be the Republican nominee for president. And now I have even more awful, depressing news for you: Donald J. Trump is going to win in November. This wretched, ignorant, dangerous part-time clown and full time sociopath is going to be our next president. President Trump. Go ahead and say the words, ‘cause you’ll be saying them for the next four years: “PRESIDENT TRUMP.”

Never in my life have I wanted to be proven wrong more than I do right now.

I can see what you’re doing right now. You’re shaking your head wildly – “No, Mike, this won’t happen!” Unfortunately, you are living in a bubble that comes with an adjoining echo chamber where you and your friends are convinced the American people are not going to elect an idiot for president. You alternate between being appalled at him and laughing at him because of his latest crazy comment or his embarrassingly narcissistic stance on everything because everything is about him. And then you listen to Hillary and you behold our very first female president, someone the world respects, someone who is whip-smart and cares about kids, who will continue the Obama legacy because that is what the American people clearly want! Yes! Four more years of this!

You need to exit that bubble right now. You need to stop living in denial and face the truth which you know deep down is very, very real. Trying to soothe yourself with the facts – “77% of the electorate are women, people of color, young adults under 35 and Trump cant win a majority of any of them!” – or logic – “people aren’t going to vote for a buffoon or against their own best interests!” – is your brain’s way of trying to protect you from trauma. Like when you hear a loud noise on the street and you think, “oh, a tire just blew out,” or, “wow, who’s playing with firecrackers?” because you don’t want to think you just heard someone being shot with a gun. It’s the same reason why all the initial news and eyewitness reports on 9/11 said “a small plane accidentally flew into the World Trade Center.” We want to – we need to – hope for the best because, frankly, life is already a shit show and it’s hard enough struggling to get by from paycheck to paycheck. We can’t handle much more bad news. So our mental state goes to default when something scary is actually, truly happening. The first people plowed down by the truck in Nice spent their final moments on earth waving at the driver whom they thought had simply lost control of his truck, trying to tell him that he jumped the curb: “Watch out!,” they shouted. “There are people on the sidewalk!”

Well, folks, this isn’t an accident. It is happening. And if you believe Hillary Clinton is going to beat Trump with facts and smarts and logic, then you obviously missed the past year of 56 primaries and caucuses where 16 Republican candidates tried that and every kitchen sink they could throw at Trump and nothing could stop his juggernaut. As of today, as things stand now, I believe this is going to happen – and in order to deal with it, I need you first to acknowledge it, and then maybe, just maybe, we can find a way out of the mess we’re in.

Don’t get me wrong. I have great hope for the country I live in. Things are better. The left has won the cultural wars. Gays and lesbians can get married. A majority of Americans now take the liberal position on just about every polling question posed to them: Equal pay for women – check. Abortion should be legal – check. Stronger environmental laws – check. More gun control – check. Legalize marijuana – check. A huge shift has taken place – just ask the socialist who won 22 states this year. And there is no doubt in my mind that if people could vote from their couch at home on their X-box or PlayStation, Hillary would win in a landslide.

But that is not how it works in America. People have to leave the house and get in line to vote. And if they live in poor, Black or Hispanic neighborhoods, they not only have a longer line to wait in, everything is being done to literally stop them from casting a ballot. So in most elections it’s hard to get even 50% to turn out to vote. And therein lies the problem for November – who is going to have the most motivated, most inspired voters show up to vote? You know the answer to this question. Who’s the candidate with the most rabid supporters? Whose crazed fans are going to be up at 5 AM on Election Day, kicking ass all day long, all the way until the last polling place has closed, making sure every Tom, Dick and Harry (and Bob and Joe and Billy Bob and Billy Joe and Billy Bob Joe) has cast his ballot?  That’s right. That’s the high level of danger we’re in. And don’t fool yourself — no amount of compelling Hillary TV ads, or outfacting him in the debates or Libertarians siphoning votes away from Trump is going to stop his mojo.

Here are the 5 reasons Trump is going to win:

  • 1. Midwest Math, or Welcome to Our Rust Belt Brexit.  I believe Trump is going to focus much of his attention on the four blue states in the rustbelt of the upper Great Lakes – Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. Four traditionally Democratic states – but each of them have elected a Republican governor since 2010 (only Pennsylvania has now finally elected a Democrat). In the Michigan primary in March, more Michiganders came out to vote for the Republicans (1.32 million) that the Democrats (1.19 million). Trump is ahead of Hillary in the latest polls in Pennsylvania and tied with her in Ohio. Tied? How can the race be this close after everything Trump has said and done? Well maybe it’s because he’s said (correctly) that the Clintons’ support of NAFTA helped to destroy the industrial states of the Upper Midwest. Trump is going to hammer Clinton on this and her support of TPP and other trade policies that have royally screwed the people of these four states. When Trump stood in the shadow of a Ford Motor factory during the Michigan primary, he threatened the corporation that if they did indeed go ahead with their planned closure of that factory and move it to Mexico, he would slap a 35% tariff on any Mexican-built cars shipped back to the United States. It was sweet, sweet music to the ears of the working class of Michigan, and when he tossed in his threat to Apple that he would force them to stop making their iPhones in China and build them here in America, well, hearts swooned and Trump walked away with a big victory that should have gone to the governor next-door, John Kasich.

From Green Bay to Pittsburgh, this, my friends, is the middle of England – broken, depressed, struggling, the smokestacks strewn across the countryside with the carcass of what we use to call the Middle Class. Angry, embittered working (and nonworking) people who were lied to by the trickle-down of Reagan and abandoned by Democrats who still try to talk a good line but are really just looking forward to rub one out with a lobbyist from Goldman Sachs who’ll write them nice big check before leaving the room. What happened in the UK with Brexit is going to happen here. Elmer Gantry shows up looking like Boris Johnson and just says whatever shit he can make up to convince the masses that this is their chance! To stick to ALL of them, all who wrecked their American Dream! And now The Outsider, Donald Trump, has arrived to clean house! You don’t have to agree with him! You don’t even have to like him! He is your personal Molotov cocktail to throw right into the center of the bastards who did this to you! SEND A MESSAGE! TRUMP IS YOUR MESSENGER!

And this is where the math comes in. In 2012, Mitt Romney lost by 64 electoral votes. Add up the electoral votes cast by Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. It’s 64. All Trump needs to do to win is to carry, as he’s expected to do, the swath of traditional red states from Idaho to Georgia (states that’ll never vote for Hillary Clinton), and then he just needs these four rust belt states. He doesn’t need Florida. He doesn’t need Colorado or Virginia. Just Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. And that will put him over the top. This is how it will happen in November.

  • 2. The Last Stand of the Angry White Man. Our male-dominated, 240-year run of the USA is coming to an end. A woman is about to take over! How did this happen?! On our watch! There were warning signs, but we ignored them. Nixon, the gender traitor, imposing Title IX on us, the rule that said girls in school should get an equal chance at playing sports. Then they let them fly commercial jets. Before we knew it, Beyoncé stormed on the field at this year’s Super Bowl (our game!) with an army of Black Women, fists raised, declaring that our domination was hereby terminated! Oh, the humanity!

That’s a small peek into the mind of the Endangered White Male. There is a sense that the power has slipped out of their hands, that their way of doing things is no longer how things are done. This monster, the “Feminazi,”the thing that as Trump says, “bleeds through her eyes or wherever she bleeds,” has conquered us — and now, after having had to endure eight years of a black man telling us what to do, we’re supposed to just sit back and take eight years of a woman bossing us around? After that it’ll be eight years of the gays in the White House! Then the transgenders! You can see where this is going. By then animals will have been granted human rights and a fuckin’ hamster is going to be running the country. This has to stop!

  • 3. The Hillary Problem. Can we speak honestly, just among ourselves? And before we do, let me state, I actually like Hillary – a lot – and I think she has been given a bad rap she doesn’t deserve. But her vote for the Iraq War made me promise her that I would never vote for her again. To date, I haven’t broken that promise. For the sake of preventing a proto-fascist from becoming our commander-in-chief, I’m breaking that promise. I sadly believe Clinton will find a way to get us in some kind of military action. She’s a hawk, to the right of Obama. But Trump’s psycho finger will be on The Button, and that is that. Done and done.

Let’s face it: Our biggest problem here isn’t Trump – it’s Hillary. She is hugely unpopular — nearly 70% of all voters think she is untrustworthy and dishonest. She represents the old way of politics, not really believing in anything other than what can get you elected. That’s why she fights against gays getting married one moment, and the next she’s officiating a gay marriage. Young women are among her biggest detractors, which has to hurt considering it’s the sacrifices and the battles that Hillary and other women of her generation endured so that this younger generation would never have to be told by the Barbara Bushes of the world that they should just shut up and go bake some cookies. But the kids don’t like her, and not a day goes by that a millennial doesn’t tell me they aren’t voting for her. No Democrat, and certainly no independent, is waking up on November 8th excited to run out and vote for Hillary the way they did the day Obama became president or when Bernie was on the primary ballot. The enthusiasm just isn’t there. And because this election is going to come down to just one thing — who drags the most people out of the house and gets them to the polls — Trump right now is in the catbird seat.

  • 4. The Depressed Sanders Vote. Stop fretting about Bernie’s supporters not voting for Clinton – we’re voting for Clinton! The polls already show that more Sanders voters will vote for Hillary this year than the number of Hillary primary voters in ’08 who then voted for Obama. This is not the problem. The fire alarm that should be going off is that while the average Bernie backer will drag him/herself to the polls that day to somewhat reluctantly vote for Hillary, it will be what’s called a “depressed vote” – meaning the voter doesn’t bring five people to vote with her. He doesn’t volunteer 10 hours in the month leading up to the election. She never talks in an excited voice when asked why she’s voting for Hillary. A depressed voter. Because, when you’re young, you have zero tolerance for phonies and BS. Returning to the Clinton/Bush era for them is like suddenly having to pay for music, or using MySpace or carrying around one of those big-ass portable phones. They’re not going to vote for Trump; some will vote third party, but many will just stay home. Hillary Clinton is going to have to do something to give them a reason to support her  — and picking a moderate, bland-o, middle of the road old white guy as her running mate is not the kind of edgy move that tells millenials that their vote is important to Hillary. Having two women on the ticket – that was an exciting idea. But then Hillary got scared and has decided to play it safe. This is just one example of how she is killing the youth vote.
  • 5. The Jesse Ventura Effect. Finally, do not discount the electorate’s ability to be mischievous or underestimate how any millions fancy themselves as closet anarchists once they draw the curtain and are all alone in the voting booth. It’s one of the few places left in society where there are no security cameras, no listening devices, no spouses, no kids, no boss, no cops, there’s not even a friggin’ time limit. You can take as long as you need in there and no one can make you do anything. You can push the button and vote a straight party line, or you can write in Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck. There are no rules. And because of that, and the anger that so many have toward a broken political system, millions are going to vote for Trump not because they agree with him, not because they like his bigotry or ego, but just because they can. Just because it will upset the apple cart and make mommy and daddy mad. And in the same way like when you’re standing on the edge of Niagara Falls and your mind wonders for a moment what would that feel like to go over that thing, a lot of people are going to love being in the position of puppetmaster and plunking down for Trump just to see what that might look like. Remember back in the ‘90s when the people of Minnesota elected a professional wrestler as their governor? They didn’t do this because they’re stupid or thought that Jesse Ventura was some sort of statesman or political intellectual. They did so just because they could. Minnesota is one of the smartest states in the country. It is also filled with people who have a dark sense of humor — and voting for Ventura was their version of a good practical joke on a sick political system. This is going to happen again with Trump.

Coming back to the hotel after appearing on Bill Maher’s Republican Convention special this week on HBO, a man stopped me. “Mike,” he said, “we have to vote for Trump. We HAVE to shake things up.” That was it. That was enough for him. To “shake things up.” President Trump would indeed do just that, and a good chunk of the electorate would like to sit in the bleachers and watch that reality show.

(Next week I will post my thoughts on Trump’s Achilles Heel and how I think he can be beat.) your social media marketing partner


A note of caution regarding our comment sections:

For months a stream of media reports have warned of coordinated propaganda efforts targeting political websites based in the U.S., particularly in the run-up to the 2016 presidential election.

We too were alarmed at the patterns we were, and still are, seeing. It is clear that the provocateurs are far more savvy, disciplined, and purposeful than anything we have ever experienced before.

It is also clear that we still have elements of the same activity in our article discussion forums at this time.

We have hosted and encouraged reader expression since the turn of the century. The comments of our readers are the most vibrant, best-used interactive feature at Reader Supported News. Accordingly, we are strongly resistant to interrupting those services.

It is, however, important to note that in all likelihood hardened operatives are attempting to shape the dialog our community seeks to engage in.

Adapt and overcome.

Marc Ash
Founder, Reader Supported News

-185 # Ralph 2016-07-24 11:16
I like Moore but given his current success and wealth, he's become nothing more than an elitist neoliberal. He's a modern day joke. Two words in rebuttal: Jill Stein.
+83 # tswhiskers 2016-07-24 12:08
That's a very weak rebuttal. She will not be elected but will be a blank vote for Trump.
-92 # Ralph 2016-07-24 12:35
After Clinton starts WW3, I can only hope that whoever survives goes out and publicly flogs Clinton supporters in whatever towns and villages remain. That would include Mr. Moore.
-50 # jimmyjames 2016-07-24 13:26
Quoting Ralph:
After Clinton starts WW3, I can only hope that whoever survives goes out and publicly flogs Clinton supporters in whatever towns and villages remain. That would include Mr. Moore.

I would be happy to throw the first stone (assuming any of us are still alive after a Clinton presidency starts WW III)
+4 # Ralph 2016-07-24 14:51
No stones would be involved. I was thinking 40 lashes with a wet noodle. A very large, heavy one though.
+4 # aDog8myH8 2016-07-25 10:25
Stones will be the only weapons left. No noodles because nothing will be growing for a very long time.
+62 # Diane_Wilkinson_Trefethen_aka_tref 2016-07-24 15:17
Quoting jimmyjames:
I would be happy to throw the first stone (assuming any of us are still alive after a Clinton presidency starts WW III)
That's assuming Clinton IS our next President. MM's point is that she won't be and I agree with him. The only way a Dem will take the White House this November is if all the Super Delegates flip for Bernie. Doubt that will happen but it IS the only way.

Look. Trump has done every outrageous, off the chart thing he can and he's done nothing but improve his chances. Just one teensy slip by HerRoyalClinton and she is toast. And she WILL slip. Her asinine belief she can do business as usual, ignorantly demonstrated with her insipid VP choice, is proof that she cannot be prevented from shooting herself in the foot.
+15 # Eldon J. Bloedorn 2016-07-24 20:36
Americans voting for and electing a con artist whose wife poses in the nude. In a country which has an average I Q of 98, anything can happen. So, why cry?
+43 # EternalTruth 2016-07-24 20:52
"So, why cry?"

Because we care about our planet and our fellow human beings, even those with IQ's under 98.
-2 # Eldon J. Bloedorn 2016-07-24 21:48
We are on the same page. I'm merely quoting those whose job it is to determine a nation's average national I Q based on test scores and statistics.

My point is why cry if the U S chooses a con artist whose wife poses in the nude? If that is how the vote turns out that is how the country voted.
+11 # EternalTruth 2016-07-25 10:50
I agree that people in this country are stupid and ignorant, and are therefore going to make stupid ignorant decisions. Saying that we shouldn't be sad about it is like asking us not to be sad about our parents dying. The fact that we know it's going to happen doesn't make it any less painful. This is the country that elected dubya for president (not actually, but close enough to fake it). After that, nothing could surprise me. It's still really fucking sad that anyone would consider voting for the fascist clown or the sociopathic hawk who are running for president. Why cry? I don't know how anyone with a conscience could have a dry eye at the though of the destructive future we have consigned ourselves to.
+2 # Eldon J. Bloedorn 2016-07-25 18:39
What my suggestion was and is:"do your best. That is all you can do"
0 # Depressionborn 2016-07-26 20:29
bilryhillary has been chosen. Trump has no chance
+3 # Jim Rocket 2016-07-25 08:34
Where in the world do you get the idea that Trump is some kind of peacenik, Ralph? This guy sues people for breakfast. He likes Putin - for now - because narcissists attract but it won't take much of a pushback from Putin to set Trump off...and Putin knows that.
+40 # ericlipps 2016-07-24 13:33
Quoting Ralph:
After Clinton starts WW3, I can only hope that whoever survives goes out and publicly flogs Clinton supporters in whatever towns and villages remain. That would include Mr. Moore.


I've said it before and I'll say it again: HILLARY CLINTON WILL NOT START WORLD WAR III! And I'll back that up, as I have before, with this: I've got a thousand dollars that says the U.S. will NOT get into a major war, nuclear or otherwise, under a President Hillary Clinton.

Trump is another matter: he's already publicly brandishing nuclear weapons. If he got into a position where he actually had authority over the U.S. nuclear arsenal, who knows what he'd do?
+52 # Ralph 2016-07-24 14:34
Guess again. Check out the article. Note the airstrikes by the US and Russia in Syria at the bottom of the article. Two nuclear powers are now engaged in outright war against each other and Clinton had a major hand in creating this war. Same goes for the Ukraine coup. Creating this massive amount of instability is going to be rewarded with her election. She has Iran in her gun sights and all bets are off.
+42 # frances_morey 2016-07-24 15:17
Are you suggesting, with cites, that the peace candidate is Trump? I don't like the idea of Hillary following Obama's footsteps as Commander in Chief, spending Oval Office time daily with CIA informants and signing off on the deployment of thousands of extrajudicial drone strikes, which result in the murder of whoever is within exploding range of the drone delivered missiles. I don't like that one bit. Not a pretty picture.
+33 # Ralph 2016-07-24 15:32
She's more of a hawk than Obomber. She has Iran in her gun sights. The Goldwater girl is the Goldwater in this election. I don't know if you are old enough to remember the "Daisy" ad. Stein would be wise to do a remake of that ad.

PS: The peace candidate is Jill Stein. Make sure she gets your vote if you have anti-war bone in your body.
+30 # A_Har 2016-07-24 15:47
Quoting Ralph:
PS: The peace candidate is Jill Stein. Make sure she gets your vote if you have anti-war bone in your body.
HRC supporters say that a vote for Stein is a vote for Trump. What they fail to reckon though is that if enough people vote for Stein, win or lose it pulls the Green party up into becoming a political force and one to be reckoned with.

The Republicans got their start during the crisis of the civil war. They did not have any prominence before that. It takes time for a new party to become established, so a vote for the Green party is not throwing your vote away.

The Greens already have influence in many countries around the world....just not here--YET.
+31 # Ralph 2016-07-24 15:51
Well stated! I agree 100%. If the Dems don't nominate Sanders, they are signing their death warrant as a political party.
+5 # kerwinskeepers 2016-07-24 18:58
Quoting A_Har:
Quoting Ralph:
PS: The peace candidate is Jill Stein. Make sure she gets your vote if you have anti-war bone in your body.
HRC supporters say that a vote for Stein is a vote for Trump. What they fail to reckon though is that if enough people vote for Stein, win or lose it pulls the Green party up into becoming a political force and one to be reckoned with.

The Republicans got their start during the crisis of the civil war. They did not have any prominence before that. It takes time for a new party to become established, so a vote for the Green party is not throwing your vote away.

The Greens already have influence in many countries around the world....just not here--YET.

That YET is a LOONG way off. At this time, the Greens still have mot established a solid foothold and if they waste their votes for any other than the Dem candidate, be it Hillary, Stein, Bernie or Mack the Knife; they will derail the movement that Bernie has brought into favor and prominence like no other politician in over 100 years. He could not have done this as a Green candidate; only a major party can do this within the framework of our current electorate.In this election, the party which wins majority will have control as to whether Bernie's cause will grow or die. To vote other than Dem, would not only abort his(and the Green)cause, but set the Green growth back generations. The GOP would put them on their black list along with SS and Medicare.
+4 # lights 2016-07-24 19:15
And since Jill Stein will NOT win and lets not pretend she will, your agenda to garner support for your precious Green Party for a later election, you are selfishly compromising the precious lives of millions and millions of vulnerable people, right here in America!
+12 # SenorN 2016-07-24 19:59
Follow Bernie; create a viable movement, THEN vote for your candidate!

I admire Jill Stein, but a vote for Jill Stein is a vote for Trump and for disaster.
+2 # lights 2016-07-24 19:17
Frances: And it is NOT at all a pretty picture trying to garner support for a third party candidate at the cost of millions and millions of HIGHLY vulnerable people in this country. Of course, if YOU HAVE MONEY, it won't affect you as much, will it? NO, it will NOT!
-12 # eduardoben 2016-07-25 02:17
Moore PART 1:

Sadly we seem to be watching a once talented societal educator turning into a grumpy, arrogant, condescending and out of touch old man.

But this isn’t the first time that Michael Moore has disappointed me.

I was sad to see him strike up a friendship with General Wesley Clark years back. General Clark was one of the architects of the grand and deadly deception of Rambouillet where he met with Yugoslavian President Slobodan Milosevic to present a peace proposal which was actually designed to precipitate war. It included a secret Appendix B demanding NATO military occupation, not just of Kosovo, the region in crisis, but all of Yugoslavia. It was a document of total surrender that no national leader could sign. When Milosevic refused to sign the “peace accord” he wasn’t meant to sign, his refusal was used to justify NATO’s war on Yugoslavia.

I’ve never been able to trust Michael Moore since he became close buddies with Clark.
-1 # eduardoben 2016-07-25 02:21
Moore PART 2:

Recently I saw him in a video insisting that Basher al-Assad resign as president of Syria to end the violence. It seemed immensely inappropriate for an American to demand the resignation of a leader targeted by his own imperialist government.

Moore apparently didn’t understand that Assad has the support of more than half the population (more than any other person or party) and the loyalty of the Syrian Arab Army (the main bulwark against violent Takfiri extremists) and that his resignation would probably multiply the violence being visited on the people of Syria by the United States led alliance and result in even more intense and widespread chaos. And he apparently believes that the people of Syria needn’t be the ones to make a decision about who should be their president.

That seemed arrogant and ignorant. My respect for him plummeted.
+1 # eduardoben 2016-07-25 02:24
Moore PART 3:

Now Moore says this:

“The Depressed Sanders Vote. Stop fretting about Bernie’s supporters not voting for Clinton – we’re voting for Clinton!”

He presumes to know what we are thinking and that us Sanders supporters are going to vote for warmongering Hillary Clinton.

Excuse me? Who does this guy think he is now? He speaks for all of us who support Bernie? Please.

But he also says: “I actually like Hillary – a lot – and I think she has been given a bad rap she doesn’t deserve.”

There’s a swath of death and misery in her wake and he loves her. He seems to have no idea who she actually is. Or what time it is for that matter.

But actually, I think the problem is that he’s fine with warmongers and criminals, as long as they’re Democrats. Wesley Clark? ‘No problem. Love the guy.’ Hillary Clinton? ‘She’s gotten a bad rap!’
Obama? ‘Helluva guy.’

So sad!

But it’s a collective mental disorder that seems to permeate much of the Left. There are a couple of Marxist schools of thought that advocate supporting the Democratic Party and Democratic presidents and I believe they’ve had far too much influence that has resulted in muted criticism of democratic presidents when they do the same things that Republican presidents are stridently condemned for.

The Democratic Party is definitely a war party and supporting it is becoming increasingly immoral and unethical.

Sorry Michael. Supporting a confirmed warmonger and killer is wrong.
+32 # Johnny 2016-07-24 15:46
Just curious: why did Clinton say she would establish a no-fly zone over Syria?
+9 # crispy 2016-07-24 17:17
in one of the debates I believe
+22 # Radscal 2016-07-24 18:50
Bibi told her to.
+14 # eduardoben 2016-07-25 01:42
Johnny: Clinton called for no-fly zones over "parts of Syria" which would initially be on or near borders with nations from which supplies could travel to US allies within Syria AND PROBABLY means there is an ultimate goal of no-fly zones being imposed over all of Syria like they were in Libya.

Why? Because it would constitute a major step towards overthrowing the popular Syrian Government, allow the US and allies to shoot down Syrian and Russian aircraft while the US supplies and advises the opposition ground forces and basically give the US and NATO military forces toeholds and operational bases inside the country of Syria.

Its important to understand that if the Obama Administration believed that Assad lacked popular support, they would call for internationally monitored elections.

Their demand for resignation of Assad BEFORE elections shows they are afraid he would win free and fair elections.

So much for US support of democracy and self-determinat ion.
-6 # lights 2016-07-24 18:00
I agree. Hillary isn't going to start WWIII but the REAL scary part is I think many of these so called progressives here actually KNOW that she WILL NOT start WWIII. They rant about it but the rant is a red herring to avoid talking about their REAL agenda. What is the real agenda? Some of it is becoming obvious but only some of it.

After time here one can see that one of those agendas is to make sure Trump WINS THIS election. AND THEY DO NOT CARE if it is at the cost of the vulnerable in this society because that outcome WILL affect many of us PERSONALLY: Social security, Medicare, Medicaid, all social services, education, women, children and it would STOP DEAD the huge progress made by so many minorities in THIS country!!

Jill Stein is clearly a part of this plan and their revengeful agenda. I don't think Bernie is buying it. We will know tomorrow night when he speaks.

I want to hear that this man, Bernie Sanders is as principled as so many Sanders supporters, most NOT on this forum seem to truly believe.
-1 # lights 2016-07-24 18:08
PROGRESSIVES or Republicans here on this forum DO NOT CARE! They want to teach the Democratic Party, what they perceive as the "stupid" people/voters of America and Hillary Rodham Clinton a BIG, BIG lesson. It's revenge folks and we have to work hard to stop them because it is going to HURT a lot of innocent people right here in America.

What is at stake is very serious AND PERSONAL; Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, education, women, children, families, choice, the Supreme Court decisions in the future that will affect ALL of us AND the enormous momentum of all minorities - it could ALL END or be greatly altered for DECADES!

Imagine these self-professed good Progressives or closet Republicans here who want destruction and ruthless revenge at the cost of the vulnerable in our society.
+23 # guomashi 2016-07-24 18:22
Democrats have four days to do something that will get progressives' support.

You know what it is.

Otherwise, please have enough respect for others to let them make their own choices.
-13 # lights 2016-07-24 18:49
Choice is one thing I agree but a ruthless AGENDA is a whole other matter! AND IT IS CLEAR that many of YOU have an agenda that will HARM many of the vulnerable in THIS country!
+11 # guomashi 2016-07-24 21:44
Quoting lights:
Choice is one thing I agree but a ruthless AGENDA is a whole other matter! AND IT IS CLEAR that many of YOU have an agenda that will HARM many of the vulnerable in THIS country!

It's none of your business how they arrive at their decisions.
Democracy depends on respecting the choices people make.
If you have something to offer, then offer it.
If it doesn't work, learn how not to make things worse.
All you shills are accomplishing less than nothing: you are driving people away from your point of view.
+4 # Jim Rocket 2016-07-25 08:36
Your pompous hectoring is NOT helping. We get that you're blindly obedient and that's why you lean right. I guess we should be glad that you don't take the extra step to Trumpland yourself.
0 # kerwinskeepers 2016-07-24 22:33
Lights, I agree. What is the real agenda hidden behind this "red herring" nonsense being peddled by all these"Bernie or Burn" dedicated supporters, who spend 90% of their time, and ours, doing anything but supporting Bernie's ideals. We hear about nothing other than negative drivel about the shortcomings of Hillary/Dems with nary a discouraging word about the evil empire itself, the GOP. Every article with the slightest mention of HRC is bombarded with a blizzard of negativity, the likes of which I have never seen before and I am 84 and have witnessed some pretty malicious smear campaigns.
IMO, there are only 2 possible beneficiaries of these tactics; the GOP and/or the Green Party. The campaign has a Rovian stench to it, but the GOP gets a free ride, since the Green is doing the dirty work for them. The Green obviously wants to replace the Dems as the home base for Progressives and is willing to sacrifice Bernie's cause, rather than let Bernie remain on course with his program with the Dems, which is the most realistic and plausible way to go. Neither Hillary nor Jill Stein are a factor in this; our objective is the realization of Bernie's ideals.
+1 # LionMousePudding 2016-07-24 22:54
I needed that laugh! Thanks!
+4 # eduardoben 2016-07-24 20:59
How many wars has Trump started? Zero. How many wars has Hillary been involved in starting? Syria and Libya and was certainly involved in laying the ground work for the coup in Ukraine and the resulting civil war there. She has threatened to obliterate Iran and has vociferously called for no-fly zones in Syria which is an act of war and would put US pilots in direct conflict with Russian pilots.She was the MAIN FORCE behind the war on Libya when Obama was reported to have been reluctant. She lied about massacres that never happened (Anyone see ONE photo of a mass grave in Libya?)just like Bush lied about WMDs in Iraq. She's already responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths. Read the wikileaked e-mail about the war in Syria.

She has already proven her willingness to push Russian backs against the wall - as has Obama - with support for the eastern march of NATO and their ABM systems.

You're either deluded, blind, incredibly stupid or just a true believing Hillary troll. But I would feel terrified to know Hillary has the nuclear codes. I don't like Trump but I think he's more likely to talk than shoot.

Gaddafi wanted to talk with the US and NATO and he got a big knife shoved up his ass which Hillary laughed heartily about in a TV interview. Watch the clip. She's a sick woman and shouldn't be allowed near the Pentagon.
+4 # Joe Blow 2016-07-24 23:33
All Trump has done is bankrupt some businesses, con a bunch of people into spending money on a worthless Trump University course, fire a bunch of people on a reality TV show, have his cheap suits and ties made in China, not release his tax returns (for some mysterious reason), act like Mussolini at the Republican Convention, essentially running for dictator of his personal Trump-branded, police state, and threaten to use nuclear weapons in some future war he is considering declaring on who knows who.
+6 # Radscal 2016-07-25 00:02
Yeah, 'cause when you compare wars that kill millions of people to a con-artist businessman, obviously scamming people is MUCH WORSE than killing or destroying them.


Not many of us want a President Drumpf (shudder). His rhetoric during this campaign is disgusting, and is already emboldening the racists in our midst.

But HRC is the one with the public record of policies that destroyed or stole people's lives.

The DP, just barely still has the time to nominate the candidate who is most sure to beat Drumpf, and whose policies are so much better and more popular than HRC's that she had to pay lip service to some of them.
+7 # GeorgePenman 2016-07-25 08:59
You forgot Honduras.

Unlike Trump, Hillary demonizes Putin and the Russians in general. Seems she didn't get over the cold war. Could she negotiate with them ?
-3 # Thinking allowed 2016-07-25 10:35
[quote name="eduardobe n"]She's already responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths.

GWBUSH is responsible for "hundreds of thousands of deaths!"
You really want Trump to win? He is more likely to cause hundreds of thousands of deaths. He will promote the ABM systems far more than Hillary. Trump says believe what he says, that he isn't averse to using nukes. Why don't you copy here the "wikileaked e-mail about the war in Syria?" Calling lights a "Hillary troll" is ridiculous. She is one of the truthful voices on this site.
+7 # Radscal 2016-07-25 12:40
We totally recognize that W pushed the Afghanistan and Iraq wars on us. Of course, HRC voted FOR both of them.

We also remember that Bill Clinton's policies in Iraq killed 500,000 CHILDREN before W stole the 2000 election.

We also know that as SoS, HRC promoted escalating the war in Afghanistan (most US soldiers killed there have been since HRC's escalation).

We also know she convinced Obama to destroy Libya, what had been the most prosperous country on the continent, and is now a failed state and breeding ground for the most vicious of terrorists. We also know the "freedom fighters" HRC armed and funded in Libya immediately hunted down and murdered every black they could find in Libya.

We also know that it's the US/NATO that built 6 new "fast response" military bases on Russia's border in the last couple years, and has activated a brand new ABM facility in Romania.

And of course, it was HRC's long-time buddy Victoria Nuland who "midwifed this thing" of having real Nazis violently overturn the elected government of Ukraine.

She is called the "Queen of Chaos" for GOOD REASONS.
+9 # grandlakeguy 2016-07-25 20:03
Thank you Radscal you are absolutely correct.
And may I add that Hillary Clinton has no problem maiming and killing innocent children as proven by her vote, while a Senator,to help the Republicans defeat a proposed ban on the manufacture and deployment of cluster bombs.
Whenever I see that nauseating TV ad about how Hillary loves and takes care of children I envision the thousands of tiny maimed bodies that she helped make a gruesome reality.

THAT is Hillary's idea of compassion.
+3 # eduardoben 2016-07-25 02:09

Do you know how much you sound like a mindless idiot? You couldn't POSSIBLY know whether she'll start a war in four or eight years as president. Unless you're a fortuneteller who can actually see the future.

I would like to vote for Sanders and/or Stein.

But if it looks like a close race between Trump and Clinton I will hold my nose and vote for Trump because, though I DON'T KNOW for certain which one would start a war, I know that Clinton was absolutely instrumental in selling, pushing and planning the war against Libya.

And the evidence shows she did the same in Syria.

Your claim to know the future is weak.

As a veteran who has seen war first hand in Vietnam, and as a journalist who has also witnessed war in Central America and the Middle East, I have to go with a candidate whose record indicates they might not choose war. That would be Stein, Sanders or Trump.

Hillary is the class warmonger.
+2 # librarian1984 2016-07-26 10:02
eduardoben, thank you .. and not.

This is a weighty decision. It's agonizing for most of us -- and your cogent argument only makes it more difficult.

Damn you, soldier! Damn you! (raining) :-D

I figure the more voices I hear the better, and I respect yours. Thank you for your exceptional candor.

Are you like Johnny Appleseed or something, the occasional visitor?
+3 # librarian1984 2016-07-26 10:07
PS Ultimately, does any of this soul searching amount to a hill of beans if we don't move to paper ballots.

I am so encouraged watching CSPAN. They're talking to leaders of various activist groups, and the causes are so worthy, the people so passionate and knowledgeable. Bernie has nourished thousands and thousands of organizers. If the DNC or the Clintons or anyone else thinks this revolution has been tidied up and locked away, I think they're sadly mistaken -- and GOOD!!

I hope Sanders will lead an immediate effort to improve the election process.

See you.
+13 # Farafalla 2016-07-24 17:15
Ralph, You just got on my troll list. I despise Hillary, but there will be no president Trump, and voting against him might be of planetary importance.
+10 # Hey There 2016-07-24 17:20
Calm down Ralph--It may be Trump--Obama has a few "military actions" now
Regarding Hillary
There’s a candidate in the political game
To keep the rich in power is her aim
A token raise to the working poor
She presents as a poverty cure
NAFTA and TPP she has praised
Exports and jobs would surely be raised
Too late she admitted that NAFTA cost
A massive hurt when jobs were lost
One payer she does decree
Isn’t a current possibility
Medicare for all is not the American way
High profits for medical groups must stay
Make harsh laws she did firmly agree
Off the streets predators must be
Prison sentences must increase
Build more prisons and hire more police
Private prisons grew at a rapid rate
More injustice for the poor took place
Prison populations were massively raised
By the tough on crime bill she praised
In a speech to win black votes
Unjust statistics she quotes
But she certainly mentions not
That she supported what they got
She claims child welfare is her concern
Her actions contradict that we learn
Harsher welfare laws that she pushed for
Made millions of children much more poor
She voted to go to war in Iraq
Bombing Libya she can’t take back
Nor escalation of war in Afghanistan
She votes for war when she can
Sailing under false colors is her game
Hillary Rodham Clinton is her name
+8 # Reductio Ad Absurdum 2016-07-24 20:11
Hey, Hey There Longfellow, now write one about Heil Trump; it should be about ten times as long — and don't forget to mention his Supreme Court appointments.
+3 # librarian1984 2016-07-25 07:53
Absurdiot: You mean those pro-corporate judges she'll nominate?

If the VP pick is any indication, she won't have a problem putting forth an anti-abortion judge as long as they're pro-corporate enough.
+5 # Radscal 2016-07-25 12:46
Exactly. I posted somewhere that Kaine says he gets his views on abortion from his Catholic faith.

Well Catholicism teaches that life begins at conception. Even zygotes, let alone fetuses are human beings with souls.

Hence, abortion is MURDER. That's what he believes. There is no "progressive" way to spin that.

Either he's lying about his faith, or he's willing to allow MURDER if it gets him elected, or as you suggest, he's a stealth candidate using lies to get into power where he can enforce laws to make women and doctors into MURDERERS.
+6 # librarian1984 2016-07-25 17:45
Either he's a liar or a hypocrite, yes, and when he has the ability he may well decide it's his moral obligation to act.

Pundits today occasionally mention that Sanders' supporters are upset about Kaine. No one is mentioning Hillary's own feminists. How are THEY feeling?
+18 # ehrhornp 2016-07-24 14:55
There will be quite a few blank votes then. And a vote for Jill is not necessarily a vote for the Donald. It is actually a vote for the winner of that particular state where that vote is made. I plan on voting for Jill or the Libertarian candidate. Since I am in Hawaii, this will be a vote for Hillary.
-8 # Reductio Ad Absurdum 2016-07-24 14:58
tswhiskers, Okay, so here's a better rebuttal: let us all remember back to the year 2,000 when Michael Moore predicted there was no way W. Bush would beat Gore, so it was "safe" to vote for Ralph Nader, as Moore voted and encouraged us to vote, as well.

Yeah, rrright.
-1 # Reductio Ad Absurdum 2016-07-24 20:07
To all you DBs who gave my comment above a thumbs down, if you disagree with the FACT that I'm stating, let's hear your rebuttal, if not, your giving my truthful comments a thumbs down says VOLUMES about just how little you value the truth — so little, in fact, that you scorn it with a thumbs down.

What I wrote about Moore predicting W. Bush would not win is a freakin' FACT, and all your thumbs down won't change that.
+6 # wrknight 2016-07-24 18:20
Quoting tswhiskers:
That's a very weak rebuttal. She will not be elected but will be a blank vote for Trump.

Jill won't be elected because YOU and all your ilk refuse to vote for her or any other third party or independent candidate. YOU won't allow anyone else to win because YOU will only vote for a candidate from one of the two parties that will bleed you dry. And then you will BITCH, and BITCH and BITCH. But that's all you will do.

It's YOUR fault that no third party will ever win in this country. YOU have made that a self fulfilling promise.
0 # NAVYVET 2016-07-27 07:21
I CANNOT vote for Jill Stein, a physician herself, who allows the antivaxers to have a place in her party's platform. She either has a hole in her head, or is so weak she has allowed New Agers to take Green Party power.

The antivaxers are loudmouths in California--whe re I lived for 4 years and would NEVER go back because my white middle-class neighbors were the most gullible suckers I ever met! California harbors more New Age True Believers than any other state I've lived in (a total of 15). Long ago I labeled New Age "the fundamentalism of the Left." Let them play head games with UFOs, ESP and astrology, and ruin their own health with weird diets and overpriced, unregulated pills that are either placebos or dangerous ("food supplements"). But anyone who is neurotically suspicious of vaccination threatens my grandchildren!

Unfortunately California is where the computer jobs are and my son and his wife are both computeristas. They have kids. If an antivaxer ever allowed one of her/his unvaccinated children to carry serious diseases into school and infect my beloved grandchildren, I would sue that idiot for all they're worth and would be tempted to call for jail time.

This is a vital issue for me and for a lot of other people. I don't know one person with a good education in science who doesn't despise the antivaxers, and we who are parents or grandparents are terrified of them. Wise up, Jill.
+76 # jmail 2016-07-24 13:29
Michael Moore wealthy? Certainly not by conventional measures of wealth. Compared with the poor and lower-middle-cl ass people for whom he relentlessly fights, maybe he is wealthy. Compared with other documentary filmmakers, maybe he is wealthy. But I'm sure he's not in the top 1% or maybe even in the top 10%.
-28 # Ralph 2016-07-24 14:31
Ahem. According to Forbes, his net worth is at 50 million. Easily a 1%er. If he's fighting so hard for the working class, why have we been handed our posteriors over the last 40 years? This article highlights what happens to most left leaning people when success comes their way. They sell out. It's part and parcel the problem we face and why we continue to slide to the right.
+37 # kalpal 2016-07-24 14:42
Ah yes, Moore is at fault for all past depredations visited upon America during the past 40 years, which includes his late teenage years as well as your demented years.
-3 # Hey There 2016-07-24 17:10
To Kalpal Didn't see where anyone said Moore was responsible. He's not in charge as the president and congress members and CEOs and Corporations.
What Moore did was make a lot of money with documentaries.
So I think, even though he speaks for a majority,he is very, very rich and it appears that he would avoid taxes and accumulate as much wealth as possible which sort of rattles the cage of those stuck in the 90% underclass
+7 # JayaVII 2016-07-24 14:31
Mr. Moore is worth $50 million, according to recent divorce proceedings. You better believe he's in the top tenth of the top tenth.
+23 # wrknight 2016-07-24 19:14
Quoting JayaVII:
Mr. Moore is worth $50 million, according to recent divorce proceedings. You better believe he's in the top tenth of the top tenth.

That may be, but he's one of the few that earned it.
-43 # pegasus4508 2016-07-24 14:04
Save yourself the time and just vote Trump. It is the same thing. Even if you "feel"better about yourself. You voted for Trump.
+11 # kalpal 2016-07-24 14:38
While I will most likely vote for Jill Stein, I fail to have any sense that she will be backed by any significant portion of the electorate. I will not vote for the Guardians Of privilege nor will I vote for any Democrats.
-2 # ehrhornp 2016-07-24 15:00
Your first mistake. While Obama has not been perfect, he has been a very good president. Sure beats having a republican these past 8 years. I generally will vote democratic but unless Hillary shows she is not a chicken hawk, I cannot vote for her. Otherwise I would have no problem supporting her.
+6 # wrknight 2016-07-24 19:20
Quoting ehrhornp:
Your first mistake. While Obama has not been perfect, he has been a very good president. Sure beats having a republican these past 8 years. I generally will vote democratic but unless Hillary shows she is not a chicken hawk, I cannot vote for her. Otherwise I would have no problem supporting her.

Good for what? Health care? Peace? Prosperity for the 99%? Education? National debt? Infrastructure repair? Gun control? Police militarization? Immigration? War on terror? War on drugs? Domestic spying? Government secrecy?

Exactly what has Obama been good for other than the military/defens e establishment?

He may have been better (or should I say less bad) than a Republican alternative, but that doesn't take much these days, and certainly doesn't make him good.

I would probably rate Obama as one of the least bad presidents we've had in my lifetime.
+8 # Hey There 2016-07-24 17:23
I'm with you on that
+46 # babalu 2016-07-24 14:46
Are you kidding? Moore was anti-establishm ent before you were born. The thing is he is not a shallow thinker, which is how he can take apart the financial and healthcare systems.
-10 # Hey There 2016-07-24 16:43
Reply to Ralph I like Moore too, but he's not one of us.He has become extremely wealthy by commenting on what needs to be said which is better than the elite 1 or 10% becoming extremely wealthy by downgrading the working class both with meager wages and blaming them for being poor.
Yet on Bill Maher's show Michael Moore while praising European countries for health care and education for all,he also mentioned that taxes were high.
When Bill Maher asked if Moore would live there he said No. So while he points out that the system works better for society as a whole he rather live here than one of the countries he praised for their social programs.
In short he'd rather live in a country with inequality that has negative effects on most of the population rather than in a country where taxes are high and inequality is less because here he is a lot wealthier.
If you really want to read about prominent liberals whose actions don't match their talk try "Do as I say,( Not as I do.)
by Peter Schweizer.
Can you elaborate on what you mean by Moore being a modern day joke?
-9 # Ralph 2016-07-24 18:10
He is a joke in the way that you point out. Anyone with genuine leftist ideology knows him to be the hypocrite that he is. I was surprised he choked out an endorsement for Sanders given the fact that he could never choke out the word "socialism". For low information people, he represents the left. These are the same people who voted for Clinton in the primaries. It's no surprise he didn't come out for the Green Party and went the LOTE route.
+1 # Eldon J. Bloedorn 2016-07-24 17:21
Since the U S has an average I Q of 98, (100 is normal) anything can happen in this country. Take a good look @ all the obese (fat) people you see next time you go shopping. Americans rank 25th in the world in math and perhaps in science also, based on the upper 10th percentile. Americans posing as "mature" people (not to mention obese children) who can not count calorie intake vs. energy expended, deserve what they get in obesity and politics.
+14 # Radscal 2016-07-24 18:58
Elton expressed perfectly the elitism that will get Trump elected.
-3 # Eldon J. Bloedorn 2016-07-24 20:04
Bitter truth is better than loving lies. Remember, the U S is the greatest country in the world!!!!!!!!!! LOL! Never ever say an American, Americans are fat, obese. Why? Pledge Of Allegiance. " nation under God." How could any American be fat or obese if this is one nation under God. Does God know this?
+3 # Eldon J. Bloedorn 2016-07-24 17:27
I like MM. OK, I used to like MM. He quits @ the first sign of defeat if defeat is in the making. Trump still has to deal with all those minorities he pissed off. Think they will vote for him? Minorities may swing this election.
+7 # Kootenay Coyote 2016-07-25 07:25
To be a lefty & successful is a joke? Oh, come now....
-29 # kundrol 2016-07-24 13:21
I've always been a big Michael Moore fan, but this article really sucks. Yes Trump will win if the DNC insists on Shillery as their nominee. We knew that Michael, but what's your solution? How about telling the truth about who can stop Trump, or don't you really care all that much about that? Rather just go with the pro Shillery BS apparently.
-7 # kalpal 2016-07-24 14:44
Its up to you to reveal the secret of who can defeat Trump. I bet you think its his daughter Ivanka, right?
+20 # swamp yankee 2016-07-24 14:44
Read the final line of his article, the one in parentheses.
+6 # kundrol 2016-07-24 16:20
Thanks. I did miss that. I was so depressed about half way through the article I didn't notice. I will certainly be interested in MM's further ideas, but not holding my breath for anything too earth shaking. He's just not his usual anti-establishm ent self here, and it worries me that he appears IMO to have copped out.
-57 # Dumbledorf 2016-07-24 13:21
Good picture of you, Michael, sitting in a junk pile. The image fits. Keep it.
+17 # Saberoff 2016-07-24 14:14
Quoting Dumbledorf:
Good picture of you, Michael, sitting in a junk pile. The image fits. Keep it.

That "Junk Pile" is your back yard.
-4 # kalpal 2016-07-24 14:45
Not his back yard, his brain pan.
+6 # Wally Jasper 2016-07-24 13:30
I actually believe that the "powers-that-be " have set this whole "election" up. Slick Willy had a "man-to-man" with Trump before he joined the race. They (the powers-that-be) probably thought that Trump didn't have a chance but would certainly drive people to vote for Hillary; they knew it was the only way she could win. Blankstein and the other banker oligarchs, the CIA, the Pentagon, corporate America: they all want Hillary. And now we see it playing out in the fear tactics coming at us from every direction: from the pundits, the media, from each other. Bernie succumbed, Mike succumbed. Everyone is now on board to get Hillary elected even though we all can't stand her and we know where she'd take this country. I can't. I won't. No way will I vote for Hillary. And, it goes without saying, no way will I vote for Trump.
+8 # ptalady 2016-07-24 13:54
I agree about the set-up, while I deplore the sexist attitude you depict. Still, there is a reason hostage-taking is pursued: it works! So, with the country's future held hostage by the fear of president Trump, I will vote for Hillary, rather than paving the way for an outright nuclear maniac to control "the button," among the myriad other complaints about Mr. T. Yeah, for sure, just pay the ransom...
-1 # RMF 2016-07-24 15:25
Yes agree ptalady...altho ugh a Bernie supporter I will be voting Hillary.
No matter Hillary's failings, when compared to Trump, the presence of her failings lose all weight as a reason to not vote for her.
It is a matter of risk assessment -- and the cumulative risks are much higher with a maniacal Trump administration. And at this point the only thing that matters is keeping Trump out of the White House.
I tend to usually agree with Moore, but in this case I think (at least hope) it's still possible for the Dems to win against Trump.
+7 # Douglas Jack 2016-07-24 17:56
Remember Bill/Hill & Donald/Melanie's:
1) daughters Chelsea & Ivanka have been best friends all their lives since childhood.
2) attendance at Don/Mel's wedding. What does this mean about their friendship & their collaborative present plans for presidency?
3) encouragement for Donald to run for president 19 months ago.

Does such friendship sound like the the staged 'rancor' which Hillary officially distains about Donald in media events?

Inside Ivanka Trump's Surprising Bond with Chelsea Clinton: 'Our Friendship Has Never Been About Politics'
Donald Trump names his favorite prez: Bill Clinton
Clintons are very good long time friends of the Trump Family, Donald Trump talked politics with Bill Clinton weeks before launching 2016 bid

Isn't it time to move beyond charade & recapture the only true 'indigenous' (Latin 'self-generatin g') sovereignty beyond this violent colonial state?
Dr. Jill Stein can help us down the path if we learn who-we-are as neighbours within the multihomes where 70% of us live.
-6 # tgemberl 2016-07-24 18:59
On Friday I made this comment on the RSN page for Paul Krugman's "Manchurian Candidate" article:

"Let me know if you agree with these statements:

"Small countries can't be independent. They must be part of a larger power bloc. The Baltic States and the Ukraine should be part of the Russian power bloc because they are next to Russia.

"During the Vietnam War, it would've been sensible for Vietnam to be an ally of China rather than Russia. It's right next to China, so why shouldn't they want to be dominated by China?

"Pol Pot wasn't that bad a ruler of Cambodia. Since he was an ally of China, Vietnam should've left him alone.

"The Carter administration was right to recognize the regime of Pol Pot. Since they were allies of China, they were the legitimate government."


What is your response to that? Was the Pol Pot regime "indigenous" enough? Do you think Jill Stein would defend it?
+5 # Douglas Jack 2016-07-24 19:44
tgemberl Western indoctrination means we don't know the full context of Pol Pot. Wouldn't it be amazing if all humanity requires every person & collective entity who express enmity against perceived adversaries to debate with them?

Yes to self-defence & right-to-protec t, but only where perceived aggressors are offered opportunity to formally debate in both-sided, equal-time, recorded & published public dialogue.
Humanity's crisis of oligarch led Finance-Media-E ducation-Milita ry-Industrial-L egislative misinformation, massive international false-flag staged events (Cambodia) drive war since the beginning 7000 years ago of colonialism started in Babylon's destruction of 'indigenous' Polyculture & egalitarian society. (eg. Eden as expressed in Genesis).

Mohandas Gandhi animated 'Satyagraha' (Hindi 'truth-search' with, "We've no secrets" calling-out those all to reveal themselves. While, there are necessary areas of confidentiality , we're still able to talk openly about circumstance.
Debate provides cultural response to understand greater truths, animating whole populations to explore differences & similarities among fellows & organizations. Each one debates at basic levels, often multiple times, within affinity groups & building consensus of thought & action. Stakeholders choose spokespeople who rise in esteem to national & international levels.
+1 # tgemberl 2016-07-25 12:26
That would be good in theory. In the best of all possible worlds, we would be able to debate everyone on an equal basis before we’d get to the point of using violence. I don’t disagree with your ideal. But in reality, there was no way we were going to debate Pol Pot in the 70’s. Maybe we should have debated with Ho Chi Minh before going to war with him. I think the Vietnam War was a mistake. But once the violence in that region started, there would be no way to debate Pol Pot.

Let’s go a few steps further back. Why didn’t we debate with Stalin at the end of World War II so the Cold War wouldn’t happen? I would guess the main reason is that insiders in the Western establishment knew how ruthless he was. They knew they couldn’t debate with him.

Now, I wouldn’t be surprised if someone is going to reference the top secret memo by George Kennan in 1948. This has been cited by Chomsky. In it Kennan says that we need to find a way to keep control of 50% of the world’s wealth without offending the rest of the world. That is a very cynical statement, and I don’t approve of it. (cont.)
+1 # Douglas Jack 2016-07-25 15:21
tgemberl, RE: "insiders in the Western establishment knew how ruthless he was". You're unaware that during 1920 - 45 with World War 2, Allied nations of the Americas intentionally killed far more, greater than 10 million 1st Nations in continuing illegal invasion, occupation, displacement-st ealing of homes, lands, infrastructure, water & resources, kidnapping of children into American-Indian -Boarding-Schoo ls, internment-rese rvations on bad-climate, poor-soil bad-lands, mass-imprisonme nt. outright settler-army-po lice murder etc.

Children were forced to stay in Boarding Schools when it was common knowledge that 50% of them were dying from tuberculosis, small-pox & other diseases of malnutrition. Children were punished for speaking their languages or following their customs. 1st Nation parents with little access, if any, to their children, typically came to pick up their bodies. In coordinated colonial policy of genocide, the US & Canada had the greatest rate of death in the Americas.

These 25 years were proceeded by a higher rate of violent genocide-based death & followed by continuing genocide, including during our time.

Centralized hierarchal command-&-contr ol oligarch trickle-down colonial economies are so unproductive in opposition to the biosphere, life & human nature, both 1st Nations & the European refugees who fled from war-torn Europe, are poorer & continue foreign exploitation dependence.
-3 # tgemberl 2016-07-25 16:36
I wouldn't deny that there have been lots of injustices perpetrated by the West. But the fact is, we don't live in an "indigenous" society, and there's no way we can go back to one.

I read a few years ago about the tribe in the Andaman Islands that is still not in contact with the outside world. If you try to land on their island, they will attack you. That is a fascinating thing. I wonder what ideas they have about the outside world, having never lived in any society but their own.

Some people argue that we should just leave them alone because otherwise, they will get diseases from us as the Native Americans did. And suffer other negative aspects of other cultures. But I actually believe that is wrong. Just as I think we should try to find life in outer space, we should make an attempt to contact those people. Both the islanders and we are poorer if we don't learn of each other's cultures.
+1 # Douglas Jack 2016-07-25 20:41
tbemberl, RE: "If you try to land on their island, they will attack you." 'Indigenous' = Latin 'self-generatin g'. We are welcomed to formally immigrate, not invade. 1st mistake is projecting lack-of-sophist ication onto people when complexity abounds. When European economic/ecolog ical refugees came to the Americas from Europe's wars & destruction, they engaged people having 35,000 years of history. Tenochtitlan at some 350,000 people living on an artificial island is considered the largest city in the world. The valley of Mexico or Cuzco in Peru had the world's greatest population centers & some of the most advanced science.

European refugees from their dysfunctional hierarchies arrived into complex Economic Democracies. Colonist memories had been cut short as to indigenous Celtic progressive ownership in Production-Soci ety Guilds & time-management through the string-shell. These are used & practiced as a worldwide system on every continent & island of the world. Colonial violence destroyed complex graphic writing systems & associated hand languages used on every continent. Memories & histories of many 10s of 1000s of years were kept by the Griots of Africa & story rememberers everywhere.

Europeans in about 1720 - 50 through church & colonial administrators (oligarch servants) began burning the great libraries of Mexico & the String Shell records such as Wampum across North America.
+3 # tgemberl 2016-07-25 12:27

But one other thing in the memo that seems to be ignored is that he expresses fear that the West will not be able to compete with the Soviet Union because of its “unparalleled” efficiency and ruthlessness. Let me explain why I think this was a serious concern in 1948. Hitler had invaded the Soviet Union suddenly, and I think it took Stalin by surprise. Yet the Soviets were able to mobilize very quickly and fight the Germans off within a few months. I believe they got quite a bit of help from us, but some in the West were genuinely scared by how fast the Soviets were able to mobilize because of their centralized government.

Actually, I’m not 100% sure that statement of fear is in the same memo as the statement that we need to keep control of the world’s wealth. If not, it is in another one by Kennan from 1948 or 1949 that I have read. I believe you can get both of them in the journal Foreign Affairs.
+9 # Wally Jasper 2016-07-24 18:34
Sorry you thought what I said was sexist, ptalady. I was speaking tongue in cheek with that "man-to-man" reference. I'm guessing that's what you're referring to. In any case, you may be interested to read the comments from Inspired Citizen (and the many responses to his posts) on how the Bernie or Bust strategy is putting pressure on the DNC to free us from the hostage-taking. These are interesting times.
+3 # kundrol 2016-07-24 16:26
I also agree about the set-up Wally. It looks very much to me like Trump is doing a great job batting for Hillary.
-4 # tgemberl 2016-07-24 16:29
You have a great deal of faith in people's ability to control things. Have you ever actually seen anybody who was that in control of things?

This kind of reminds me of the Bernie Madoff scandal. Didn't he steal something like $50 billion? All the wealth disappeared, and a lot of wealthy people lost money they invested in his firm. After the 2008 crash, when that happened, I remember reading a lot of people saying the whole thing was planned by the economic elite. But if they planned it, wouldn't you think they would've kept Madoff from doing that? Or do you believe that Madoff was just a "false flag" (or whatever the term is) for something created to fool the public? He is in prison, as far as I know. Both of his sons committed suicide or died an early death. Do you think he would've cooperated in a plot that cost the lives of his sons? What would he be getting out of it?
+15 # Radscal 2016-07-24 19:06
Madoff became a sacrificial lamb.

Or maybe a scape goat is the better analogy.

His crimes, heinous as they were, were small potatoes compared to what the banksters behind HRC committed, and are still committing.

Madoff's biggest "crime" was that he ripped off the wrong people.
+38 # JJS 2016-07-24 13:32
Go to your own state's Voter registration and Absentee Ballot Application page.

Check the deadline dates and forms needed to help others vote.

When it is available for the general election make copies of the ballots for as many districts and localities as you can visit. Bring voter registration applications, as well.

Voter registration deadline in MD is October 18,2016. Your state may vary.

Bring stamps and envelopes if you can afford it. Go door to door. Distribute the applications and ballots, as needed. Return before the registration deadline for those applications and a few days before the general election to collect absentee ballots along with Designation of Agent form. Fax or hand deliver the completed absentee ballots and Designated Agent forms before election day. Don't wait until the last minute.

Bring extra ballots to fill out for those who misplaced the forms or did not fill one out.
(Election day is Nov 8, 2016)
Help your neighbor vote. Be neutral, no one wants to be told who to vote for. If they ask and you wish to share, give your viewpoint.

Offer rides to and from voting places. ANYTHING to increase participation.
+13 # pegasus4508 2016-07-24 14:06
It is called WORK. So few are willing to do it. Thank you for the suggestions.
+6 # Saberoff 2016-07-24 13:52
Americans think things will Balance out fine, if we keep alternating our two political parties in the WH each eight years.
+5 # Saberoff 2016-07-24 17:00
Since George Washington, 42 persons have been sworn into office as President, and all have been affiliated with a political party at the time they assumed office. The numbers of presidents per political party are:

Republican –18
Democratic –15
Democratic-Republican –4
Whig –4
Federalist –1
+10 # Radscal 2016-07-24 19:08
We're up to 44 Presidents. Maybe you're not counting ones that got in as VP when the President died or resigned?
+25 # MendoChuck 2016-07-24 13:56
I will say that the article is well written . . . . .
But something rings a bell here . . . . as I recall is seems that I remember when Michael Moore said that Romney will win . . . .

As long as the public continue to believe what the Main Stream Media tell them they will continue to follow and not lead.
Our Constitution was designed to be used and operated by a "Citizen Government," not "professional politicians."
When "The People" understand this we will really have the change we all want and need.

The choice is ours to make . . . .
And I hope I am not wrong but I cannot vote for the Status Quo.
I do not agree with the way things appear to be heading . . . . . .
Trump or Clinton are not the answer to my many, many questions.
And I have way to many questions about what I see is taking place in Washington DC.

Change will not come while I wait and hope for someone else to make that change.
The only change I have control over is myself.

YIKES . . . . .
I do get carried away.
+5 # TJGeezer 2016-07-24 14:12
Got it, Mike. You're depressed because you feel compelled to vote for someone who is a classic hawk of the Cheney "I had better things to do than fight" variety. So Trump will win because people are angry, or mischievous, or racist, or suckers for a flag-waving junior Mussolini, or will
vote with their feet.

The article feels like an attempt to scare voters but your readers probably aren't the best targets for fear tactics. Mostly, I'd expect voters here at DK to support either Hillary or Jill Stein.

Preaching to the choir is understandable. But seriously, I don't need you to scare me into voting. Cut it out.
+41 # RSN rocks 2016-07-24 14:16
MICHAEL MOORE IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! He is spot on with this article. Its the independents in the Rust Belt and other states that will decide the election.

Hilary just doesn't get it -- voters are frustrated and angry AT THE ESTABLISHMENT AND STATUS QUO. This anger is what fueled Trump AND Sander's successes on the right and left -- they both denounce a system that is rigged against the average guy. HRC represents that system. She is a career politician that has been around a long long time. She is the establishment personified and that is NOT a good place to be in this election year. Trump is an egotistical, racist, fascist and misogynist dumbass, but he represents a F*ck you to the system. THAT is why he could pull it off in November.

Believe me I would vote for HRC in a millisecond and forgive her for her lies and deceit if she:
1) pulled all our troops out of the Middle East
2) stood up for Palestinian rights
3) supported single payer health care and stood up to Big Pharma
4) severed her ties with Wall Street and promised to prosecute the bankers behind the fiscal meltdown

But I know I'm dreaming and it ain't gonna happen....

She could've picked Warren or Sanders as a running mate but no..

I am a depressed Sanders supporter who would never vote for Trump but I just can't bring myself to vote for Hilary. I will write in Bernie. I live in California so it doesn't really matter.

WAKE UP people! This shit is REAL! MM please tell us how to proceed!....
+14 # Ralph 2016-07-24 14:26
Ahem. Jill Stein needs your vote.
-25 # kalpal 2016-07-24 14:46
How much do you earn by being a shill for Trump?
+9 # Ralph 2016-07-24 14:54
Another paid Clinton troll. zzzzzz.
+4 # Douglas Jack 2016-07-24 21:15
Ralph & Michael Moore, Donald Trump will end up attacking Hillary Clinton very easily because of her state-violence as will deficiencies emerge about Donald Trump's actual impoverished business, exploitive labour & worthless university. Dem-Repug speechwriters only know how to attack each other. Beneficiaries are Jill Stein & Gary Johnson. Cornel West has already joined Jill, but within 2 weeks after the convention, Democratic Policy committee members: Deborah Parker, James Zogby, Keith Ellison & Bill McKibben among others like Ralph Nader will join in support of Jill.

Jill will reach 13% of voter intention the week after the Democratic convention due to massive Bernie defections both citizen & rep. Gary will rise to 10%. With Goldwater Clinton & Dump-Truck attacking each other, Jill & Gary will rise 2% neck-in-neck per week as Dem-Repug revelations become more pronounced in the 9 weeks till the 9th of November election. On the 5th week Goldwater & Dump will turn their attention against the Green & Libertarian front-runners but it'll already be too late. If Bernie defects from the Democrats, Jill will win by 50% landslide.

Missing from US & other world colonial constitutions is open-transparen t participatory 'Economic' (Greek 'oikos' = 'home') Democracy. Strength lies in the areas of expertise which we build, female & male, young & old in our multihome dwellings & workplaces.
+4 # Radscal 2016-07-25 12:52
I'm not so sure of the statistics you predict, but I think the general view will be quite accurate.
+25 # djnova50 2016-07-24 14:39
Jill Stein will be on California's General Election ballot. You can vote for her. She is intelligent and articulate and her plan is like Bernie's plan, only better.
+9 # Arden 2016-07-24 16:39
RSN rocks, the reason "it ain't gonna happen" is because you really have to BELIEVE in your dreams. Dreams CAN come true, but too many people think just like you do, that dreams are impossible. "Oh, we can never have a world without war. It's just impossible." Well, NO, it's not.
+11 # Radscal 2016-07-24 19:14
That's exactly what HRC and the Hil-Bots keep saying to Bernie and his supporters.

"Unicorns and rainbows" is the phrase, I believe.

HRC is going down. The last chance to defeat Drumpf is to convince your representatives to vote for Sanders at the Convention.

If neither of them get 2,383 votes, then ALL of the delegates are unchained, and can vote for the ONLY candidate who is sure to beat Drumpf.

PLEASE contact your representatives . Maybe even try the other super delegates. We can still do this.
-2 # RSN rocks 2016-07-25 23:47
Arden I DO believe in my dreams! When I said "it ain't gonna happen" I was referring to Hilary doing a180 and acting on the above. Yes, I truly believe all these things CAN happen, but not in this election cycle. During my lifetime certainly, or I would at least hope so. And America and the rest of the world will be better for it.
+14 # Emmanuel Goldstein 2016-07-24 14:26
We live in an entertainment society. Trump is more entertaining than Hillary. End of story.
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+5 # Johnny 2016-07-24 15:59
Quoting Emmanuel Goldstein:
We live in an entertainment society. Trump is more entertaining than Hillary. End of discussion.

+15 # Vardoz 2016-07-24 14:29
Not everyone thinks so. That would be a huge disaster. Bernie is engaged in several lawsuits.
The game is not over yet.
watch this video.
+15 # madam truefire 2016-07-24 14:34
Michael, once again, the voice for reason.
We are in trouble and it will take a huge step to stop the train in progress. Looking forward to you solutions.
+17 # JayaVII 2016-07-24 14:35
I wish MM explained why he "likes" Hillary Clinton, our greatest avatar of will to power, of imperialism, of opportunism, of Goldman Sachsism. This kind of unsupported and baffling statement, seen from a Freudian angle, is actually a kind of reaction formation, i.e., a way of pushing away one's real and unacceptable feelings by asserting the exact opposite of what one really thinks and feels.
+15 # djnova50 2016-07-24 14:36
Whether the next President is Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump will not be because of my vote. They will have to do it without me.

I will be voting my conscience this time around and my conscience will not let me vote for either one. This time I will be voting for a progressive candidate. Neither Hillary nor Donald are progressives. However, on some issues, Trump may be more progressive than Hillary.
+10 # economagic 2016-07-24 20:20
"Whether the next President is Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump will not be because of my vote."

There are good reasons to believe that it will not be because of votes in general. Besides outright disfranchisemen t, there is significant evidence of vote tampering and rigging in at least two of the last four presidential elections not counting this one (so at least 3 of 5). We have Palast and Wasserman to thank for that information. Ben Manski in Wisconsin (Liberty Tree) is restarting his "Election Protection" brigade that would have taken to the streets in 2004 upon notice of irregularities, but the "Democratic" candidate folded some 24 hours before the statistical evidence was made public.
+30 # tigerlillie 2016-07-24 14:38
Michael says that Trump will win the key rust belt states because he is opposed to the TPP, and promises to take actions to bring manufacturing jobs back to the U.S.

And the fact is that it makes sense for working class people to vote for Donald Trump, because what he promises is in their best interest.

Question: Why hasn't Hillary been consistently against the TPP, and promising to bring jobs back to the U.S.? Everyone knows the answer to that; she and Bill have a bad record re: trade agreements, as well as a record of pandering to Wall Street.

The DNC insisted on nominating a corrupt candidate, and now their only hope of winning the general election is massive election fraud. They probably have that in the bag, just as their refusal to eliminate superdelegates amounts to a de facto announcement that Hillary is the presidential candidate again 4 years from now. Nice work, DNC.
+16 # JJS 2016-07-24 16:13
Good points tigerlillie.
We need infrastructure jobs paid for with bonds sponsored by the Federal, state and local gov'ts. Tax and spend, on infrastructure! Loans (interests) are cheap, returns are bountiful.
+5 # guomashi 2016-07-24 17:54
Quoting tigerlillie:
Michael says that Trump will win the key rust belt states because he is opposed to the TPP, and promises to take actions to bring manufacturing jobs back to the U.S.

And the fact is that it makes sense for working class people to vote for Donald Trump, because what he promises is in their best interest.

Question: Why hasn't Hillary been consistently against the TPP, and promising to bring jobs back to the U.S.? Everyone knows the answer to that; she and Bill have a bad record re: trade agreements, as well as a record of pandering to Wall Street.

The DNC insisted on nominating a corrupt candidate, and now their only hope of winning the general election is massive election fraud. They probably have that in the bag, just as their refusal to eliminate superdelegates amounts to a de facto announcement that Hillary is the presidential candidate again 4 years from now. Nice work, DNC.

That was exactly my point after his acceptance speech. He is already flanking the $Hill monster on the left, even as she tries to confine him on the right. A classic encirclement. She is toast.

And the steady drip of consequences of her abysmal judgment ain't helping either.
+11 # Radscal 2016-07-24 19:21
The DNC has NOT nominated anyone yet.

There is still time to convince the super-delegates to nominate Bernie.

Debbie, "The Sane Progressive" just interviewed a Bernie super-delegate who had just gotten off a conference call with super-delegates.

They are seriously considering switching and voting for Bernie. This outing of DNC rigging and awareness that even worse is yet to come really is making them rethink their support for HRC.

Please let your representatives know they must save the party, and our country by nominating Bernie.
+9 # economagic 2016-07-24 20:21
"Debbie, "The Sane Progressive" just interviewed a Bernie super-delegate who had just gotten off a conference call with super-delegates.

They are seriously considering switching and voting for Bernie. This outing of DNC rigging and awareness that even worse is yet to come really is making them rethink their support for HRC."

Now THAT's interesting, especially considering that she just agreed to resign after the convention.
+6 # Radscal 2016-07-24 21:42
The BAD news is that both Sanders and his campaign manager are being very polite and downplaying this.

DWS has taken herself off the speaking list for the Convention. That was, no doubt, to avoid the optics/audio of large numbers of people booing her.

But she may still be gaveling in the proceedings, so it'll still happen, but not in prime time.
+2 # librarian1984 2016-07-26 10:18
"Question: Why hasn't Hillary been consistently against the TPP, and promising to bring jobs back to the U.S.?"

Hi tigerlillie!

Frankly, why has she been silent on jobs, police shootings and climate change, American military plans, Wall Street? I never hear anything about her actual plans, though reputedly there are many of them.

If you gave her supporters a quiz about her (global imperialist hyper-aggressiv e proto-fascist) plans, would they have better than random chance of knowing what was on fearless leader's mind?

Unlike Trump supporters Hillary's people would know what it is, might even know what TPP stood for. They just wouldn't care enough to be informed -- not when there's vaccines to avoid!

(And before anybody yells at me I'm related to these people! I was RAISED by these people*! I think I deserve a little room to say they were .. whatever.)

How much will her many ideas cost? Will we get a discount because they're incremental?

Bernie has pinned her down and put a bow on it for domestic affairs but who is going to rein in her savage warrior princess?

Son of Kissinger?!
+18 # politicaleconomist 2016-07-24 14:43
The only way to continue the revolution is to continue the revolution: vote for Jill Stein.
A year ago everyone said that Bernie Sanders was a sideshow and we proved that idea wrong. We need to do the same for Jill Stein. She can beat Trump because her ideas and platform are the majoritarian ideas of Sanders. Those who vote for HRC are perpetuating rule by and for the elite. We do not need to abort the progressive agenda by throwing away our votes for another Clinton.
-9 # ChakraTalk 2016-07-24 14:49
Hey Michael,
I thought you were much more conscious than to support Hillary's vote! I understand your chagrin with Mr. Trump, but if I were to choose the two lesser evils, I'd vote for Trump. Your description of him is very biased. Sure, he's shown himself off as a bigot, trigger happy, nuclear oriented, but on the other side, he's serious about bringing back true productivity to our Country. He's a businessman by nature, and businessmen also listen to opinions and advice--And he's changed his tune a lot since he started. I'd be more comfortable talking to Trump, knowing he would listen, much more than Ms. Hillary, who only listens to her backers!
+19 # JCM 2016-07-24 15:37
Trump has spent his life ripping people off and made himself rich doing so. There's nothing redeeming about someone who continually lies and betrays his own word. A big point the pundits miss about trump is that everything trump says is meaningless. What he says today is gone tomorrow. He says he will help the American people, sure, he'll help them out of their money as he has done time and again. He did it when he open the trump institute, when he promoted the University of Trump, when he went bankrupt on his casino's and ripped off all the business that worked on the buildings. What makes you think he even cares about our country, he only cares about himself. How many times does a person have to lie to you before you call him a liar?
Furthermore, have you seen the republican platform? Anyone voting for any republican would have to be totally out of their mind.
+12 # Hey There 2016-07-24 18:51

Regarding Trump

It took no smarts on Trump’s part
To be born rich right from the start
Being rich Trump blusters is the key
Why the next president he should be
About his billions he brags boastfully
Excuses filing for business bankruptcy
Good business sense Trump said he showed
To pay creditors less than what he owed
Trump’s tax plan of what he does boast
Would benefit the rich the very most
With more Mexicans leaving than coming here
There may not be enough workers it is clear
So on Mexico’s borders to build a wall
Trump’s proposal makes no sense at all
Twenty five billion to build a wall not needed
Billions from necessary projects depleted
To expel undocumented immigrants
Trump’s plan would cause billions to be spent
To deny U.S. entry is Trump’s plan
As well as shutting down mosques I understand
But he speaks ignoring terrorists’ facts
Muslims commit a minority of the acts
Senseless action is what Trump bellows for
Things that need fixing Trump chooses to ignore
The Media’s focus on Donald Trump’s blather
Turns voters’ attention away from what matters
Wars, low wages, gone away jobs and pollution
These are real problems that need a solution
+5 # ehrhornp 2016-07-24 14:52
Hillary is not my first choice but I think Michael is wrong about this. First of all Michigan and Ohio is going to vote for the Donald? Michigan where poor folk are poisoned and Ohio where the republican governor is just a bit anti Donald? If these states vote for the Donald they will deserve the economic meltdown that will soon follow and I don't think they well

The Donald has not released his tax returns and there are reasons for this. Finally it will be interesting if he ever debates Hillary. I don't think he will. Will these people really vote for a coward? I don't think so.
+17 # 2016-07-24 14:59
All the ads I see for Hillary just insult Trump.
All the ads I see for Trump just insult Hillary.
We need Instant Runoff Voting so we can vote for who we want to win, not just against who we want to lose.
+3 # giraffee23 2016-07-25 11:13
That can only happen if we get rid of "Citizens' United" and not have $$ buy who we can vote for. And that won't happen in the next 4 years.

Maybe the Koch brothers and the others who buy our government will follow Scalia and they can all have a party or whatever they do where "they will go"
-5 # indian weaver 2016-07-24 15:11
I think everyone here has missed seeing the elephant in the room: ACD. No matter what, ACD is wrecking the entire planet, regardless of which fascist wins this presidency. I will vote for whoever I think will start a nuclear war first, fastest. That is the only chance we have to save the planet, because a man-made nuclear holocaust will only destroy most life, but not all of it like ACD. With a full on nuclear war between America and whoever it attacks first, probably Russia, the ensuing nightmare will very likely abort ongoing ACD just enough to tweek the impact and disrupt the 40 on-going synergistic warming nightmares we've already unleashed. With each of those 40 positive feedback loops accelerating the warming of the other 39 and itself, the planet has no chance of survival. With a massive disruption with nuclear meltdown, the overwhelmingly bigger ACD will take a break maybe long enough to allow the planet to survive without it also being incinerated, which is what will happen in the end with ACD as it is happening now. Pray for a massive nuclear war to save the planet. Our Great Mother Earth is weeping for salvation from human greed and arrogance. Her only hope is man-made nuclear war, trivial by comparison to ACD. I think voting for either Hillary or Trump will ensure nuclear war, so we have the best 2 possible candidates to benefit our Great Mother Earth. She thanks America for its overweening wisdom in this regard, in spite of ourselves.
+5 # Aaron Tovish 2016-07-24 16:13
Please provide your most solid (peer reviewed) description of ACD that will "incinerate the planet." Those who wish to know more about nuclear winter should visit
+5 # Ralph 2016-07-24 17:02
Unfortunately, the scientific community refuses to do any proper investigation into what could drive the planet into a Venusian collapse. Nonetheless, Mr. Hawking weighs in on this important topic and we are in need of real scientific investigation.
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+2 # bardphile 2016-07-24 16:35
At first reading I detected irony, or maybe I just hoped for it. After a second reading, it seems you're serious. If nothing else, you've provided a glimpse into the extremism of some of your posts.
+14 # Ralph 2016-07-24 16:53
You know who I view as "extremists"? People who turn a blind eye to endless war and environmental destruction. We are currently in the midst of the sixth great extinction of the anthropocene epoch. Murderers, thugs, goons and their apologists as far as the eye can see. Extremists by any sense of the word.
+11 # economagic 2016-07-24 16:55
ACD??? Are you sure you don't mean AGW (Anthropogenic Global Warming)? I went through a list of 113 items ACD can stand for and nothing jives, while your comment would make sense if it's AGW that you mean. To the best of my knowledge (pretty broad and in some areas deep), trying to choose the lesser evil between AGW and nuclear winter would be a LOT like trying to make the same choice between Clinton and Trump.

Despite the insistence of so many people that their personal opinion on that latter choice is absolute, indisputable fact, we do not know which would be worse, any more than we can know whether nuclear war or unchecked AGW would be worse.

The reality that we all should be focusing on is that regardless of who becomes president next January, and regardless of what steps are taken to slow AGW, life for most people is almost certain to become a lot more challenging within the next couple of decades. I have stated my preferences and my recommendations several times in these forums, and will do so again later tonight.
+8 # guomashi 2016-07-24 17:59
Quoting economagic:
ACD??? Are you sure you don't mean AGW (Anthropogenic Global Warming)?

ACD = anthropogenic climate disruption
+10 # economagic 2016-07-24 18:06
Thanks -- I hadn't heard that one, couldn't figure it out, and it wasn't on the list -- so much for internet lists!
+7 # economagic 2016-07-24 18:12
Quoting economagic:

Despite the insistence of so many people that their personal opinion on that latter choice is absolute, indisputable fact, we do not know which would be worse, any more than we can know whether nuclear war or unchecked AGW would be worse.

Of course that state of not knowing applies to Mr. Moore as well. He is entitled to his opinion to the same extent we all are, and he has no stronger claim that HIS opinion is "fact" than I do (which of course is zero!).

It was implicit, but I should have made it EXplicit.
+5 # keenon the truth 2016-07-24 17:45
What is ACD?
-1 # tgemberl 2016-07-24 17:46
Indian weaver,
Will you tell us who it is? Do you think Hillary is the most likely to start a nuclear war, so you're endorsing her? Or do you think it will be Trump? I hope you will give us weekly updates between now and November if you're not sure yet. We want to know who to vote for.
+13 # Saberoff 2016-07-24 15:13
Wasserman Shultz resigns as head of DNC, after Convention on Thursday.

Clinton's response:

""I look forward to campaigning with Debbie in Florida and helping her in her re-election bid--because as President, I will need fighters like Debbie in Congress who are ready on day one to get to work for the American people," Clinton said.
+10 # sus453 2016-07-24 15:42
The blind leading the deaf.
+12 # Ralph 2016-07-24 16:57
Merely the back side of the hand as it comes back after the Kaine slap in the working class face.
+8 # guomashi 2016-07-24 18:03
Quoting Saberoff:
Wasserman Shultz resigns as head of DNC, after Convention on Thursday.

Clinton's response:

""I look forward to campaigning with Debbie in Florida and helping her in her re-election bid--..." Clinton said.

Which is exactly why this can't be viewed as any kind of victory in terms of moving the party forward.

How stupid is Clinton?
She thinks she can get away with this without repercussions?
It is awe-inspiring how abysmally bad her judgment is on this.

So, what else is new?
+10 # Wally Jasper 2016-07-24 18:30
Yeah, she'll probably give DWS a cabinet appointment.
+11 # Radscal 2016-07-24 19:27
At the very least, Ambassador to Israel. She's already Debbie Wasserman-Schul tz (D, Tel Aviv).

We must stop both of these monsters the duopoly is forcing on us.
+7 # economagic 2016-07-24 20:28
That's a tall order, but it's the tall order or a monster, despite the insistence of ALL of the "conventional wisdom" (term coined by John Kenneth Galbraith) that there is only one monster ("the other one" -- see # 2016-07-24 14:59, above).
+9 # anFarUchCaosK 2016-07-24 16:07
If we all decided to work together constructively and persuaded Dr Jill Stein and Mr Bernie Sanders to present a third - nonCorporate - political party to vote for in November that would at least make it very interesting for the Rethugocratic duopoly.
+10 # economagic 2016-07-24 16:57
Stein said a week or two ago that she privately offered the top spot to Sanders a month or two ago, and that he did not reply.
+8 # Radscal 2016-07-24 21:46
As he shouldn't have.

The question is, will he use his opening night speech at the Convention to attack the Establishment he spent the last year campaigning against, or will he be "With Her?"

If the former, then it's time for him to call Jill (or accept the DP Nomination and their apologies).

If the latter, it's long past time for us to get behind Jill.
+5 # economagic 2016-07-25 06:37
Even I am not so optimistic as to dream that having come to this point the Democratic establishment would fold its tents and acknowledge that it has been lying all along! And I'm afraid that Sanders is not so radical as to stand alone and publicly renege on his promise to vote for the Democratic nominee, despite all we now know about the skullduggery that led to her being designated "presumptive." If there is an opportunity for him, I suspect that it might be in the loss of confidence of enough super delegates to deny Ms. Presumptive the nomination, as you suggested earlier.
+4 # Radscal 2016-07-25 12:29
I fear you'll be correct. Bernie spoke before a group and said "we must elect Hillary Clinton and Tim Kaine," and the auditorium broke out in "NO."

He's definitely remaining the gentleman and not taking advantage of this opening.

Now DWS is not even going to gavel in the proceedings. They are so afraid of the optics of her being booed on national TV. She was booed at some little side event earlier today. Of course, she ridiculed those booing. Waiting to hear her say they threw chairs at her. ;-)

The theme for tonight is "Party Unity." Good luck with that!
+4 # Radscal 2016-07-25 16:50
This just in: DWS is reporting that she had to have armed guards to protect her as she left due to "threats."
+1 # librarian1984 2016-07-25 17:54

I send blessings to those vocal, passionate Sanders supporters.

This is the time for them to break away from Sanders. He's done everything the DNC wanted so he is in good graces.

What a pity he can't control his people :-(

I am so glad these crooks and cheats are not just wallowing in congratulations ; instead they are squirming under the spotlight.

Funny it's all up to Sanders to convince his people -- when Clinton hasn't lifted a finger to be conciliatory.

If you can, check out the article CL38 linked to -- DNC Playing Chicken with Progressives, I think. Very good commentary on the current dynamics.

Exciting times.
+4 # economagic 2016-07-25 19:57
With Trump gaining in the polls and the Never Hillary crowd pretty firmly entrenched, we may all live to see how that game of Chicken turns out. Just remember: "We didn't start the fire" (Billy Joel).
+2 # librarian1984 2016-07-26 10:26
everyone is positively giddy.
-7 # ericlane 2016-07-24 17:00
Mike, You're entitled to your two cents worth. I disagree. I think Kaine is a very good selection for VP precisely because he will appeal to white men, especially Catholics and in the states you say Hillary will lose. Dem's are going to kick ass. I only hope the legs are long enough to take the senate and maybe house.
+8 # Doc Mary 2016-07-24 17:16
Well, that's a pretty selfish stance. Trump cannot be an option for anyone who is female, black, Latin, native American, Muslim, or descended from someone who came from Mexico (for whom he seems to have particular wrath - hey, Donnie, the BORDER crossed US not the other way around).

Or anybody who doesn't want hate speech to occupy the White House for the next four years.
+11 # ericlane 2016-07-24 17:34
Doc Mary, Trump cannot be an option for any thinking white male as well.
+12 # MidwestDick 2016-07-24 18:02
The president could do so much to help us out.
He could just come out and say that, while he believes that the TPP is a good deal for America wage-earners, he understands why people mistrust the process, and so he is going to stop asking for passage of the TPP as it stands and bring the negotiations into the sunlight, allowing the new Congress to re-open, and discuss the terms of the agreement.
And Hillary should renew the promise which Obama made and could not or would not keep to re-open NAFTA and GATT.
Why are the Republicans leading the charge? This is our issue.
+13 # Radscal 2016-07-24 19:29
Nice idea, but total fantasy.

There is no way that politicians owned by Wall Street are going to do anything to halt the "progress" of the global fascist world order.
+10 # jimallyn 2016-07-24 18:23
An overall good article but Michael is wrong about one thing: we will NOT vote for Hillary Clinton. No way no how.
+13 # Radscal 2016-07-24 19:31
The latest poll I saw said that 40% of Sanders supporters still say they will NOT vote for HRC under any circumstances.

And that was before the DNC admitted these leaked emails are real, and the system was rigged against Sanders.
+9 # economagic 2016-07-24 18:24
WaPo (the Washington Post for people new to this topic) published a scathing editorial today slamming Trump pretty much everywhere he deserves to be slammed.

As far as I know, no reputable MSM source has enumerated Clinton's flaws in anything like as much detail. Of course, the MSM, reputable and otherwise, being "mainstream" are by that fact also corporate, and the Clinton's are ardently pro-corporate. Could there be anything else going on?
+10 # William Brandon Shanley 2016-07-24 18:36
While not a Trump supporter, as far as I know, he's not killed anybody. The Clinton's are surrounded by dead friends and associates, countless others through Killary's Libyan and Syrian wastelands and who knows how many through NAFTA? The Clintons define psychopathy, just like Obama-Tom, the CIA lackey!
+10 # RnR 2016-07-24 18:37
Clinton can't beat Trump - Bernie can :)
-6 # Shades of gray matter 2016-07-24 18:53
MM has written, for him, as unusually thorough and systematic essay, which I appreciate seeing. Therefore, I look forward to his follow-up. Even in the auto capital, I doubt if Trump can beat the Dems, no matter the disarray of the state Dem Party. Besides, all the current employees of the MI & US domestic auto industry KNOW that their compensation depends on profits made outside the US. If it were not for the profits made in Mexico, wages would be much lower in the US. MM: Please address this.
+1 # turnoutthelights 2016-07-24 18:54
Understand your good intentions Michael, but the effect will be to aid and abet the biggest threat to democracy in our modern history. Take a new approach, please.
+4 # Shades of gray matter 2016-07-24 18:58
Auto union leaders doth protest in public. But behind closed doors they sell, "Robbing Pedro to pay Paul, and Paula." Profits from Mexico go to UAW workers in the US. If there were a tariff on those cars coming in, people would simple buy high value cars made somewhere else overseas. Toyota didn't sneak in. They provided MUCH more value. Not so much today. Perhaps because the Japanese produce so many cars in the US, via ROBOTICS. Trump going to outlaw robots?
+8 # Mickeyfilm 2016-07-24 19:06
Michael is so right about this. I'm really scared people are not going to listen. I've been a hard working documentary filmmaker myself all my life. I've even had films on HBO. What is amazing, is really how small the audience is when it comes to facts. HBO gets about 5% of the audience. Even with Michael's large audience, it's a massive undertaking. Somehow, the Democratic Convention has got to share a vision similar to what Bernie did. Unfortunately, in my opinion, Hillary's vision barely exist. Yes, and it's because she works hard to play politics. Unless, with the help of Bernie, there is no chance. Hillary needs Bernie's help. Period. The alternative is a true buffoon, Mr. Donald.
+13 # Radscal 2016-07-24 19:35
MM is correct about some of Drumpf's electoral strengths. A few of us (too few) have been pointing out for months that he could beat Clinton.

And MM notes:

"Let’s face it: Our biggest problem here isn’t Trump – it’s Hillary"

Yes MM. And I doubt you or her team can fix that problem. She has a LONG record that cannot be made to disappear (even less so than the emails she believed had been "wiped" off her illegal server).

The ONLY Democrat who is essentially sure to beat Drumpf is Sanders.
0 # nogardflow 2016-07-24 20:30
Having to vote for Hillary will definitely leave a bad taste in my mouth and early on I swore to only vote for a progressive candidate, vowing to write in Bernie's name if necessary. Then Scalia died and that changed everything, the next president will be filling for sure one Supreme Court position and the oldest justices on the court, are also the most progressive. So, I'm not sure if even a long shower will make me feel clean after I vote this year, but I cannot do something that might benefit Trump, allowing him to put even one Justice on the Supreme Court.
You can get rid of a President after four years, a Supreme Court Justice is for life and they are the ones that decide what laws we live by.
+6 # giraffee23 2016-07-25 02:30
Actually a President can be gone in less than 4 years -- impeachment and some have been shot --- see my comment below
+3 # Radscal 2016-07-25 12:59
Supreme Court Justices can be impeached, too.
+10 # Charles3000 2016-07-24 20:44
I have said for months this is not a D vs R election. It is an establishment v the people election and the people will win. There were two people candidates, Sanders and Trump. I have pointed out for months one or the other of them will win. Look at what happened to "establishment" candidates on the R clown parade!
+3 # RSN rocks 2016-07-25 23:51
Yeah they all got their asses kicked! And I fear Hilary will get her ass kicked because she represents the Establishment. How does she not get that?!?! She's not stupid so it must be her arrogance.
+14 # futhark 2016-07-24 20:54
RE: The Jesse Ventura Effect. I would happily vote for Mr. Ventura over either of these major party candidates. Jesse Ventura is an extremely strong critic of the official 9/11 attack narrative, is strongly opposed to using torture as a tool intelligence gathering, is much in favor of having W. Bush & Company put on trial for 9/11 and the Iraq invasion, would free Chelsea Manning and pardon Edward Snowden (""Edward Snowden is my personal hero, and Bradley Manning and Julian Assange are right up there with him."), and is generally opposed to the way partisan politics is conducted to the detriment of the common interest. I regret that he has chosen to withdraw from the presidential race as a third party candidate.
+4 # Ralph 2016-07-25 05:42
The attack on Ventura was truly bizarre. It just demonstrates what an establishment lacky Moore is.
+6 # Lloyd Wagner 2016-07-24 22:11
Give us 9/11 straight, Michael.
-3 # Activista 2016-07-24 23:07
Mike,” he said, “we have to vote for Trump. We HAVE to shake things up.” That was it. That was enough for him. To “shake things up.” President Trump would indeed do just that, and a good chunk of the electorate would like to sit in the bleachers and watch that reality show."
yes - be pragmatic - like Sanders, Reich - and read Krugman:
+3 # Joe Blow 2016-07-24 23:41
As has been pointed out, this article ends like this:

"(Next week I will post my thoughts on Trump’s Achilles Heel and how I think he can be beat.)'

Stay tuned.
+6 # Radscal 2016-07-25 13:03
As has been pointed out, HRC is far LESS electable than was Al Gore. She is hated and mistrusted more than any other candidate in history. Some of that is irrational, some of it is objective observation of her actual record.

Nothing she, her spokesmodels or MM can say or do will change that.
-9 # egbegb 2016-07-24 23:55
There is too much non-factual and hateful information in Michael Moore's diatribe to spend time on. However, he has very interesting insights on the "Jesse Ventura" effect and the "rust belt". Michael Moore has proven himself to be uninformed about the effects of Obama's policies. MM seems to think the very fact that ObamaCare was passed is a solution. He is wrong.
+6 # giraffee23 2016-07-25 02:07
Let's assume Trump is elected President. He's so into himself and so will do SOMETHING so bad that Congress will impeach him. Maybe the "establishment" has already decided to find a way to impeach him.

Then we have the most right-wing "establishment" VP as President who may, actually be worse than Trump as President (hard to believe anyone can be that bad) but again Congress can (hopefully) find a way to impeach this creep also.

WHY do I think this? There was talk that the RNC would vote to get Ryan as candidate for GOP but that would have caused all those gun-toting righties to go totally ballistic so Trump was nominated.

Ryan is a very Right-Wing dude and although he makes me "sick" --- maybe we can salvage something in the next 4 years while the Lefties fix the voting rights craziness that allows GOP to win elections by voter "suppression" (which includes blocking minorities from voting, etc)

Well - this is all probably a pipe dream and maybe Michael Moore (who wants to be wrong on his prediction)is wrong and Hillary will be President and (now I'm getting delusional) maybe Hillary WILL FOLLOW what Bernie has been saying --- and make the banks PAY and TAX the rich and make sure trade is ...... yes, all of what Bernie and Liz Warren tell us would bring us back to the "good old USA" where a dream CAN COME TRUE.

I know I'm insane for such thoughts but good night
+1 # RSN rocks 2016-07-25 23:58
Yes it's possible Hilary will follow Bernie's lead and actually enact the Democratic platform, but I'm not gonna hold my breath! Trump could do a lot of damage in four years and Hilary will just be four more years of the same, but.....

Maybe Bernie will run again in 2020????
+5 # revhen 2016-07-25 08:47
6. Republican governors in swing states will hack electronic voting machines and switch millions of votes as happened in FL in 2000 and Ohio in 2004.

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