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Pierce writes: "The pointless alleged cover-up of the role of Saudi nationals in the attacks of September 11, 2001 is starting to come just a little bit unraveled. The Guardian had a provocative piece quoting John Lehman, a Republican member of the 9/11 Commission and a former Secretary of the Navy under Ronald Reagan, to the effect that the investigation essentially buried the question of Saudi involvement."

Saudi king Salman talks to the media during a meeting with US president Barack Obama in the Oval Office of the White House in Washington, September 4, 2015. (photo: Yuri Gripas/AFP)
Saudi king Salman talks to the media during a meeting with US president Barack Obama in the Oval Office of the White House in Washington, September 4, 2015. (photo: Yuri Gripas/AFP)

Why Do We Keep Learning New Secrets About 9/11?

By Charles Pierce, Esquire

14 May 16


There are allegedly more Saudi officials implicated in the 9/11 Report than we thought.

he pointless alleged cover-up of the role of Saudi nationals in the attacks of September 11, 2001 is starting to come just a little bit unraveled. The Guardian had a provocative piece quoting John Lehman, a Republican member of the 9/11 Commission and a former Secretary of the Navy under Ronald Reagan, to the effect that the investigation essentially buried the question of Saudi involvement.

"There was an awful lot of participation by Saudi individuals in supporting the hijackers, and some of those people worked in the Saudi government," Lehman said in an interview, suggesting that the commission may have made a mistake by not stating that explicitly in its final report. "Our report should never have been read as an exoneration of Saudi Arabia." He was critical of a statement released late last month by the former chairman and vice-chairman of the commission, who urged the Obama administration to be cautious about releasing the full congressional report on the Saudis and 9/11—"the 28 pages", as they are widely known in Washington—because they contained "raw, unvetted" material that might smear innocent people.

I, for one, didn't know that a Saudi diplomat had been implicated in the support network on which some of the hijackers depended while living in San Diego. (Why is Fahad al-Thumairy walking around free while shoeless losers who fall for FBI stings get shipped off to the nether regions of the federal penal system?) But Lehman wasn't finished yet.

In the interview Wednesday, Lehman said Kean and Hamilton's statement that only one Saudi government employee was "implicated" in supporting the hijackers in California and elsewhere was "a game of semantics" and that the commission had been aware of at least five Saudi government officials who were strongly suspected of involvement in the terrorists' support network. "They may not have been indicted, but they were certainly implicated," he said. "There was an awful lot of circumstantial evidence."

Allegedly, there was a considerable brawl within the commission about how the material concerning the Saudi involvement was being handled, and at the center of it was staff director Philip Zelikow, whose previous job was as an aide to Condoleezza Rice back in the days when she was proving to be the worst National Security Advisor ever. This always has stuck in my craw, and if the stonewall is falling down, then that's all to the good.

Zelikow fired a staffer, who had repeatedly protested over limitations on the Saudi investigation, after she obtained a copy of the 28 pages outside of official channels. Other staffers described an angry scene late one night, near the end of the investigation, when two investigators who focused on the Saudi allegations were forced to rush back to the commission's offices after midnight after learning to their astonishment that some of the most compelling evidence about a Saudi tie to 9/11 was being edited out of the report or was being pushed to tiny, barely readable footnotes and endnotes. The staff protests were mostly overruled.

The crime against history is ongoing, but it does seem we're edging a little closer to solving it. your social media marketing partner


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+110 # Radscal 2016-05-14 12:44
The US (or more accurately, the Anglo-American- Zionist Empire) has been using Saudi Arabia to fund Jihadist terrorism since they overthrew the democratically- elected government of Iran in 1953.

This "28 pages" is most likely a deliberately-cr eated "limited hangout," designed to divert attention away from those who really planned, executed and covered up the truth about 9/11.

Hey, remember when Bush II wanted the Clinton's long-time friend, Henry Kissinger to head the commission, but he stepped down when the families of people murdered on 9/11 demanded a list of his clients?

So instead, Bush II appointed rabid Zionist Phillip Zelikow, who taught courses at Harvard on the "creation and maintenance of public myths" and their role in public perceptions of history.

Orwell tried to warn us.
+105 # grandlakeguy 2016-05-14 16:15
And perhaps someday the American people will learn about the well kept secret that is the melting temperature of steel.
No amount of jet fuel and office furniture can even come close to causing steel to melt.
+15 # jsluka 2016-05-14 17:07
What do you make of:

Quote: "Jet fuel burns at 800° to 1500°F, not hot enough to melt steel (2750°F). However, experts agree that for the towers to collapse, their steel frames didn't need to melt, they just had to lose some of their structural strength—and that required exposure to much less heat. "I have never seen melted steel in a building fire," says retired New York deputy fire chief Vincent Dunn, author of The Collapse Of Burning Buildings: A Guide To Fireground Safety. "But I've seen a lot of twisted, warped, bent and sagging steel. What happens is that the steel tries to expand at both ends, but when it can no longer expand, it sags and the surrounding concrete cracks."."
+35 # Spence 2016-05-14 17:24
Take a close look at the "toppling" of the South Tower. The top portion above the impact actually topples with all of the weight on one side. Yet that side of the building does not crumble from the quadrupling of weight, the opposite side crumbles which now has been relieved of all weight. Take a look and explain how this could happen.
+3 # jsluka 2016-05-14 17:46
I don't know, but as the quote above states, it seems that under intense heat steel twists, warps, bends, and sags, and I presume that can be in an any direction. So if it bends, warps and sags in one direction. Once the stresses shift like that, it would seem entirely possible that the pressure on other parts of the building would shift in all sorts of unpredictable ways. I think a structural engineer could answer your question better, but it doesn't seem mysterious to me at all. Generally, just because we don't understand something doesn't mean something nefarious has occurred; usually, it just means we don't understand the reality we are observing.
+43 # Anarchist 23 2016-05-14 18:15
So where did the 'warped, bent, twisted steel go...where did the toppling tower itself go? Not in the it vanished in a tremendous explosion which had far more force and heat than any hydrocarbon could produce. Observe the pyroclastic clouds, seen also in volcanic explosions...hy drocarbons like kerosene do not have the force to produce the pulverization of the tons of concrete and the blast force to produce a shock wave.
+54 # RGV.REG 2016-05-14 22:02
+50 # grandlakeguy 2016-05-14 23:58
NEVER in the history of steel frame buildings has one ever collapsed due to fires no matter how hot or how long they burned.
On that one day THREE steel framed buildings collapsed at free fall speed into their own footprints in a perfect controlled demolition fashion and there was hardly any fires burning in building seven.
What a coincidence.
+42 # treerapper 2016-05-15 04:11
Yes, Building #7 - the building that contained all the Superfund files. What a pity that all that documentation was lost.

The Powers That Be - or better, the boys in the back room that pull all the strings - think we are all a bunch of idiots walking around with blinders on, swallowing any old piece of bullshit that comes down the pike.
+18 # Radscal 2016-05-15 13:06
6 years after the Commission Report, the lead investigator finally came up with an explanation (?) for Building 7.

“World Trade Center Seven collapsed because of fires fueled by office furnishings.”

“We really have a new kind of progressive collapse that we have discovered here: a fire-induced progressive collapse.”

~ Shyan Sundar (NIST WTC Lead Investigator, 2008)

[edit: It should be noted that IF NIST discovered a new process whereby office fires can cause the global collapse of high rise buildings, one would think someone should warn firefighters to take new precautions to save their lives, and change building codes. The fact that no such steps were taken indicates there was no such "a new kind of progressive collapse"].

He also finally acknowledged that the building fell at free-fall speed for at least the first few seconds: impossible unless there was no structure underneath the top of the building.
+13 # grandlakeguy 2016-05-15 13:15
They actually think that we are that stupid to believe such BS when we have all seen the building 7 videos.
+6 # Radscal 2016-05-15 14:19
Apparently enough of us do believe the BS for them to have gotten away with it.

And for those of us who don't believe the Official Conspiracy Theory, we are left feeling impotent.

An "win/win" for them.
-3 # Caliban 2016-05-16 01:12
My recollection of the scene is that there was plenty of steel framework in the street level rubbish--much, but not all of it twisted and/or warped as if by heat and off-center weight.

Additionally, much of the collapsed structure appeared to have fallen into the quite deep basement levels of the two buildings. I'm not an engineer (though I studied engineering in my college days), but nothing seemed then--or since--to be inconsistent with the official reports.

So, I'll simply ask--if the structural explanations seem reasonably plausible--what are the politics of cause and/or blame in 2016?
-1 # Radscal 2016-05-16 15:13
Each tower had 240 perimeter columns and 47 core columns. That amounts to about 85 linear MILES of steel and about 60 linear miles of aluminum cladding. The spandrels that tied the perimeter columns made another 20 linear miles of 4 foot-wide steel braces.

That’s 165 miles of thick metal sections.

Then there were 110 steel floor structures made of a weave of steel bars suspended between joists with braces. Those would make for a tangled web of thousands of miles of steel sections had they landed on the ground.

There was no where near this much steel and aluminum found lying around “the pile” in the aftermath of the destruction of the towers.

In fact, photos taken on 9/11 immediately after the dustification of the Twin Towers show an ambulance parked right in front of where a Tower had stood. It is parked right on street level, and is not buried in steel debris.

And no, those hundreds of linear miles of substantial steel columns did not show up in the basements. Photos of the rescue operation prove that.
0 # Caliban 2016-05-16 21:25
I walked around the whole scene of the WTC catastrophe as soon as non-rescue people were allowed to get close. There absolutely was steel both above the surface and below it.

That said, I have no idea of the actual dimensions or weight of the rubble as Radscal appears to have. So I must ask--if the steel and other internal structural materials were not where logic would suggest, where were they?

Answers, Radscal?
0 # Radscal 2016-05-16 23:14
Of course there was some steel ruble. Just no where near the hundreds of linear miles of such.

It's pretty easy to look up the WTC specs. You could do it, too.

And if you find that all that steel can be accounted for before those dump trucks started hauling it away, I'd be very happy. I do not like living with the knowledge that our government is lying to us - especially about the key event that has led to 15 years of non-stop war. Please feel free to disabuse me of that knowledge.

If I knew what happened, then I'd be rich and famous. Or dead.

All I can tell you is that almost all of two 110 story buildings, almost all the office furniture, etc. and thousands of human beings turned to dust in mid air and blew away.
+61 # Anonymot 2016-05-14 17:46
And the steel sagged causing the concrete to crack SIMULTANEOUSLY at all four walls. Therefore the heat was applied equally on all of the building interiors. That explains why Towers North and South and Building #7 went down so squarely on their foundations rather than tilting over to one side or the other.

I'm not an engineer. I'm certainly not a conspiracy theorist, but just in terms of being a disaster loss specialist in the field of building structures that's a lot to swallow and very, very hard to believe. The planes did not hit squarely centered. I was there and saw it.

What we do know is that everything was very tightly controlled by the Deep State administration in place. The press said what it was fed and allowed to say.

I was trapped in the WTC rubble for 5 hours and I know an unpublicized secret concerning the hundreds of millions of dollars provided for First Responders health. I wrote the NYT and Atlantic and never even got a reply, so it's still a secret. The scandal is not only in the secret, but that the press doesn't want to touch it.
+39 # Anarchist 23 2016-05-14 18:12
Steel is a very good conductor of heat. The localized heat from the burning jet fuel/kerosene(. ..what there was of it, for example in tower 2 when most of it burned off in a spectacular fireball....sho ck & every time)would have diffused along the steel...47 box girders in the core and 237 around the perimeter... this 'weakening and bending' theory is pure hogwash...sure if it were some sort of metal pre-fab or a metal roof...but not the massive structure that was the Twin towers.
+15 # lobdillj 2016-05-14 18:23
Well, by golly, if Popular Mechanics said it then it’s settled.
+46 # grandlakeguy 2016-05-14 18:55
jsluka: the Popular Mechanics article is absolute nonsense.
Steel conducts heat in a fashion similar to a copper wire conducting electricity. There was no sagging steel at the WTC wreckage but rather a lake of molten steel below it that took weeks to cool down.

If the article you quote is true then you must need to buy a new set of pots and pans every time you cook dinner...becaus e they all melt!

By the way did Popular Mechanics come up with a tall tale about how all those thousands of tons of concrete became powder?
+11 # Radscal 2016-05-15 13:01
Allow me to quote from the Official Findings instead of a magazine that teaches how to build tool sheds from plywood.

1. The jet fuel had nothing to do with the temperature of the fires. From the Official Report:

"Jet fuel sprayed onto the surfaces of typical office workstations burned away within a few minutes. The jet fuel accelerated the burning of the workstation, but did not significantly affect the overall heat released."

NIST NCSTAR 1, WTC Investigation, page 184

The fires blamed for the destruction of the Twin Towers were typical office fires.

"Subsequently, fires began to grow and spread. They were initiated by the aircraft’s jet fuel, but were fed for the most part by the building contents and the air supply resulting from breached walls and fire-induced window breakage."

NIST NCSTAR 1, WTC Investigation, page 179

2. But even the regular office fires claimed to have caused the dustification of the towers wasn't hot enough to weaken the structure.

"No conclusive evidence was found to indicate that pre-collapse fires were severe enough to have a significant effect on the microstructure that would have resulted in weakening the steel structure."

NIST NCSTAR 1-3 page 236

Despite the scientists' failure to find evidence that airliner-caused structural damage, jet fuel or office fires caused the Twin Towers to turn to dust in mid-air, the Commission decided the Official Story described within an hour of the event was what happened.
+42 # Ted 2016-05-14 18:35

Thousands of Architects and Engineers discuss the actual physics of 9/11 at;
+21 # 2016-05-14 21:00
And maybe someday people will realize the relatively small amount of fuel planes carry.
+25 # treerapper 2016-05-15 04:08

Maybe some day we'll even get the truth about Kennedy. The list might even contain some of the same names. Gee now, who would have thought!!!
+1 # dusty64 2016-05-19 16:15
I only recently learned, in an article right here at RSN, in a list of stories tacked on to the lead story, of the Saudi agricultural enterprise in the Arizona desert where, on land we sold to them (did US lack foresight or political clout?!), they have sunk very deep wells to water the grain they raise and ship back to their homeland to feed their livestock.

And why did we not sink those wells ourselves, sell the land to American farmers using non-GMO seed for crops not saturated with RoundUp, for a ready-made market overseas??

I sense Insanto's finger turning over that pot, knowing full well the Saudis would never buy crops raised by Insanto.

And what exactly is the balance of political power between US and Saudi Arabia that we didn't at least LEASE the land to them??!!
+18 # velobwoy 2016-05-14 18:02
Thanks Radscal - always appreciate your learnment.
+16 # psephoLibran 2016-05-14 19:28
Many may be aware of the Saudi connection to 9/11 if only from the nationalities given; maybe a few about the secret flight out.
The mostly Zionist-control led American press (not just the US govt, though Obama, Biden, and Kerry have tried a bit to loosen control), rarely refers to a report apparently some Israelis (dunno if IDF or what) watched (from a distance) in a white vehicle. If not having encouraged, let it happen to increase Islamophobia and carte blanche support for Israel?
Unless surprises at the conventions, two candidates already chosen, no?
Perhaps the system cd be reviewed to look at changes so next time improved.
Money? Votes not needed if candidates bought. The election secondary if not irrelevant.
(One plus for Trump, not beholden, even dared say he was neutral before speaking at AIPAC.)
Some rumours Saudi Arabia and Israel are cooperating w/ ISIL (also against Assad, a (rare) leader regarded as secular).
The world watches the US anxiously.
In foreign affairs it's taken actions that left worse govts/situation s than were there (Iraq, Libya) thus causing reactions and even recruitment to ISIL. The Kurds, Iran, Russia, and wounded Syria are having some success weakening ISIL -- think I did hear the US is no longer backing Syrian "moderate" groups, some of whom even give US-supplied equipment to ISIL.
America's intl reputation will only continue to decline while led by Netanyahu.
At home, general discontent is fuelling the fire Trump is spreading.
0 # 2016-05-14 21:00
You too are afraid to say "Jew?"
+11 # Jim Rocket 2016-05-14 22:57
Thanks for that, bettysdad. Zionist is the wrong word to use. It's antisemitic/rac ist in this context. Israeli right-wing is much more accurate. A significant percentage of Jews and even Israelis are not on board with Bibi's expansionist policies. Using those terms lets all the non-Jews (who are no doubt the majority of the perpetrators) off the hook. And it actually helps Bibi. "See! Everyone who opposes us oppones us because they are antisemitic". As Chomsky says, "If they ceased to be of strategic value we'd toss them into the sea." As if "Jews" actually control the media. This is not to say that I don't agree with most of what you are saying.
+4 # Radscal 2016-05-15 13:21
Yep. The ONLY suspects arrested on 9/11 and the days immediately after were all Israeli citizens.

One group was seen set up and filming the attacks and cheering.

Another group was caught near the Washington Bridge with a van full of explosives.

A 3rd van exploded after the police stopped it. This was the one with the famous mural of airliners crashing into Manhattan.

A 4th "Urban Moving Systems" van was stopped twice. Once on the way to the Flight 93 crash site in PA, and once on the way back.

The FBI was quite upset that the State Department forced them to release the 50 or so Israelis they had arrested. Here are the FBI documents on these terrorists:
+3 # Cassandra2012 2016-05-15 14:55
And the Saudi pals of W????
0 # Radscal 2016-05-15 17:06
Patsies with cash.
+1 # Cassandra2012 2016-05-15 14:52
Quoting psephoLibran:
Many may be aware of the Saudi connection to 9/11 if only from the nationalities given; maybe a few about the secret flight out.
The mostly Zionist-controlled American press (not just the US govt, though Obama, Biden, and Kerry have tried a bit to loosen control), rarely refers to a report apparently some Israelis (dunno if IDF or what) watched (from a distance) in a white vehicle. If not having encouraged, let it happen to increase Islamophobia and carte blanche support for Israel? ...

Hmmm, so everything is bc of the Jews (or " Zionists " now) is it? NOT the oil corps with Cheney, W , ALEC, and that greed-ridden pseudo-Christia n lot?

Convenient bigotry at work. But then there IS Der Drumpf making slander, bigotry, misogyny, racism, etc. pc/ okay....
+26 # Old Uncle Dave 2016-05-14 19:40
Yes, the 28 pages story is a limited hangout. There are no doubt multiple fall back positions in place, new lies to replace old lies that lose their viability.

“We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you’re studying that reality — judiciously, as you will — we’ll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.” ― Karl Rove
+14 # SMoonz 2016-05-14 20:53
Kissinger, Zelikow, Bush Family, Saudi Royal Family, all had so much to gain from 9/11.
Here's a video that breaks it all down. Just follow the money trail.
"Black 9/11: Money, Motive, Technology, and Plausible Deniability"
-5 # 2016-05-14 20:59
Too much of a coward to use the term "Jew?"
+18 # MadKate 2016-05-14 22:32
I truly do give up! We are hopeless. It is impossible with all of our CYA policies ever to know what really is going on with all of our entanglements. I have always thought the Saudis were complicit in 9/11--especiall y when Dubya flew out the entire bin Laden family back to Saudi Arabia when no other planes were allowed to fly. Gimme a break!

Greed, wealth and power. Power, wealth and greed. There you have it. How sad!
0 # Radscal 2016-05-15 13:28
The Saudi citizens who flew out of the US left after the ban on flying was lifted.

However, the Bush Administration did allow charter planes to fly within the US to collect them and prepare for their departure.

I think that the meme that Bush let Saudis fly out of the country was also a deliberately-pl anted bit of disinformation. Since it's easily shown to be wrong, it serves to delegitimize findings about what really did happen.
+3 # Cassandra2012 2016-05-15 14:57
NO get your facts straight ... everyone was amazed that NO ONE could fly out, EXCEPT for that Saudi family flight!!!
+2 # Radscal 2016-05-15 17:18
You're wrong. The Saudis were allowed to fly WITHIN the US before the ban was lifted. But they did not fly OUT OF the US until the ban was lifted on 9/14.

It's definitely a dirty deal that the Feds let them fly inside the country, and then let them fly out without proper interrogation, but you've fallen for one of the "limited hangout" bits of disinformation planted to discredit "conspiracy theorists."
+11 # Eldon J. Bloedorn 2016-05-14 22:58
A man was searching for something in the grass, under a STREET LIGHT late @ night. A lady stopped by and asked the man who was searching on his knees if she could help.
He said, "yes, you can."
Lady, what are we looking for?"
Man, "my care keys."
Both man and lady looked and looked for 1/2 an hour.
Finally, the Lady said, "are sure sure you dropped your keys in this area?"
Man, "actually, I dropped them over there (about thirty feet away) next to the fire hydrant."
Lady, "then why are looking over here?"
Man, "there is no street light over there."
+63 # reiverpacific 2016-05-14 17:42
How about, why was a plane load of Saudi big shots allowed to sneak out of Bluegrass Field, Lexington KY, when the rest of US airspace was firmly closed down?
I never heard ANY enquiry address THAT yet unless I've missed something,
0 # 2016-05-14 21:31
It's been discussed for almost 15 years
+2 # Underledge 2016-05-15 08:15
We can discuss what color hair Martians have but what is the answer?
+3 # reiverpacific 2016-05-15 10:25
It's been discussed for almost 15 years

But as for conclusions or instigators? Never seen any as yet.
+25 # Charles3000 2016-05-14 17:54
You had to really have your head in the sand to not know that Arabia was in on the action. After all, most of them were from Arabia. I like to tell people, Arabians attacked us, they were directed from Germany and then we attack Afghanistan because of it. Go figure the logic.
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+49 # Stilldreamin1 2016-05-14 18:56
Isn't it true that with the exception of 9/11, no steel frame building has ever collapsed as a result of fire? Building 7 was 'pulled' by explosive charges. If people don't know this it's because they don't want to admit that we live in a morally bankrupt country. Like the murder of JFK, it's a false mystery. In fact, there is nothing mysterious about it. The CIA and joint chiefs killed Kennedy because he refused to invade Cuba, he was withdrawing from Vietnam, had passed the atmospheric test ban treaty and had back channel communication with Krustchev and Castro. The men that did it believe the law is for the masses, not them. We know that 15 of the 19 hijackers were Saudi nationals, that a plane load of Saudis was whisked out of the country when all other civilian aviation was grounded, that 28 pages of the 9/11 report has been kept secret from us. Can we really claim that 'we don't know' if Saudia Arabia aided the plot? It's a case of willful ignorance because the truth is impossible to accept or live with.
+19 # edensasp 2016-05-14 22:39
Even if the worst of any theory were true beyond what our Government has told us.

What can done about it?
What will be done about it?
Who will do it?

Yeah, like "we" have anything to say about it beyond comment sections.
+11 # Citizen7 2016-05-15 11:27
What can done about it?
What will be done about it?
Who will do it?

Yeah, like "we" have anything to say about it beyond comment sections.

"What can be done about it?" is really the important issue to be dealt with, now that we're finally getting over our 15-year brain freeze. There exists a "we" that extends beyond the members of this group, to take in all the citizens of the US and in fact people all around the world, since 9/11 was a globally significant event. Obviously, what needs to happen is a new series of Nuremberg trials. But those concentric "we"s need to get through all the layers of denial first, including the denial that "we" could ever have gone along with the myth in the first place--in other words, that "we" were wrong (why is that always so hard to admit?).

"We" have been in denial about a lot of other things we've been doing wrong, too. For Americans, imperialism, aggression and wars, in so many places and for so many years--things they never taught us about in high school. For our whole species, we've indulged in such excesses of consumerism and population growth that now we're on the verge of bringing down the biosphere. If "we" as a species could get over all these different forms of denial, maybe we could do something to clean up this mess we've made. If it's too late for that, we could at least go out with a little honesty.
+45 # Vermont Grandma 2016-05-14 19:14
Obama's "looking forward" not examining the past approach has been a disaster from day one of his administration and it continues now over seven years later. I campaigned for Obama, twice worked for his election. We citizens of the US have seen the betrayal that started under George W. Bush continue to the current times.

It was shocking to learn that despite the Saudi identity of 15 of the hijackers, the FBI did not detain or interrogate any Saudi national or employee in the US after 9/11. It was even more shocking to learn that while all other air travel was suspended, planes flew all over the US to pick up Saudis and then fly them out of the country with no investigation whatsoever re their possible involvement.

The pathology in this nation of protecting a select group goes deep. On the Democratic side, it would be wise to consider which of the Democratic candidates is deeply linked to the Saudis. If we want this pathology lanced and healed we need to work to assure that HRC is neither the Democratic nominee nor ever a US president.
+11 # California Neal 2016-05-15 00:38
So we should continue supporting Bernie as strongly as we can, & keep our fingers crossed. But in the likely event that HRC wins the nomination, we're in a quandary, aren't we? You don't want Trump appointing Supreme Court justices & determining policies on women, immigrants, health, Social Security, taxes on the wealthy, etc., do you?
+4 # Radscal 2016-05-15 13:37
For many decades, the Democratic Party has told us to just accept their ever-more evil candidates because of possible Supreme Court nominees.

Many of us aren't buying that line any longer. If we allow a warmongering, Wall Street servant who has made herself rich by selling advanced weapons to some of the most vile regimes in the world steal the Presidency, the Supreme Court will be the least of our problems.
0 # Cassandra2012 2016-05-15 15:00
Then just say welcome to Nazi Drumpf and his Serbian wife...
+8 # Radscal 2016-05-15 17:20
If the DNC insists on nominating the candidate under TWO FBI investigations, who will be destroyed during the campaign, then it will be THEIR fault if we end up with a President Drumpf.

If you don't want Drumpf, INSIST that your representatives nominate Sanders.
0 # dusty64 2016-05-19 16:25
California Neal, no I don't want Trump doing any of the things on your list.

But, equally, I don't want Hillary doing any of them either!
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+37 # futhark 2016-05-14 19:45
I am still under the impression that destroying evidence at a crime scene is a serious legal violation. Yet the total cleanup of the World Trade Center site, including export of the remaining steel to China, was widely celebrated in the press as being somehow therapeutic to the American national psyche!

There seems to be little hope of the United States healing itself from the seemingly endless cycle of inconclusive foreign military engagements and the violation of citizens' rights domestically until a full and objective investigation of the 9/11 attacks has been conducted and those who planned and executed it have been prosecuted, convicted, and sentenced.
-1 # 2016-05-14 21:31
It's not a crime if it hasn't been declared a crime scene.

It never was.
+20 # Jim Rocket 2016-05-14 23:14
It should have been. Also, I've always thought Bush and Cheney should have been charged with 3000 counts of criminal negligence causing the least.
+30 # 9/11Truther 2016-05-14 20:04
Could somebody please enlighten me, but I fail to see what possible motive the Saudis had for attacking the United States. At least six of the 19 hijackers weren't hijackers and were still alive afterwards. And there is considerable evidence that a non-Arabic-spea king middle-eastern country, other than Iran, was majorly involved in 9/11.
Also, can anyone produce any hard evidence that Saudi Osama bin Laden had anything to do with 9/11? The FBI never has, which is why he has never been on their list as wanted for that mass slaughter of innocents. It's interesting that W's Secretary of State Colin Powell right after the attacks said that evidence implicating bin Laden would soon be made available, but then the next day Powell said the evidence could now not be available as it had been classified for "security reasons." And the Taliban said they would hand bin Laden over if the Bush soon-to-be-war- criminals produced evidence of ObL's involvement. Instead, Bush and Blair chose to launch a massive shock 'n' awe bombing then invasion of Afghanistan on Oct 7 2001, less than four weeks after 9/11. If that isn't hard evidence of the bombing and invasion having been planned BEFORE Sept 11 2001...? In fact Bush had had on his desk, two days before 9/11, an authorization to begin that unwinnable war he hadn't yet signed when the jetliners hit the Twin Towers.
-1 # jazzman633 2016-05-14 20:34
Osama and many Saudis were enraged at the presence of infidel troops on holy ground. That was what 9/11 was about. I would not be surprised that such an elaborate operation required Saudi help, support, and money. But the root motivation was religion.

To proponents of the inside-job theory, I say: what happened to all the passengers and planes that took off? Also: the govt. didn't need a pretext for regime change and invasion. Bush and cronies were thinking about Iraq before 9/11, which was one reason they weren't paying attention.
+5 # 2016-05-14 21:04
To proponents of the inside-job theory, I say: what happened to all the passengers and planes that took off?

They were killed

What part don't you understand?
+20 # Jim Rocket 2016-05-14 23:18
Are you confident that it was a plane that hit the Pentagon? Because I'm sure not.
+3 # Radscal 2016-05-15 17:29
There were apparently two explosions at the Pentagon, minutes apart: The one that gets all the publicity, which left no evidence of an airliner, and a second one right at the Helipad and control tower/firetruck garage that did leave quite a scattering of airplane-like debris.

Even the second one did not leave enough debris to account for an airliner, but it could well have been a cruise missile painted to look like an American Airlines jet.

Barbara Honneger had access to all the records, and convinced me.

This is the powerpoint slides from her presentation:

In this longish video, she explains all the data:
+3 # 2016-05-14 21:05
The Saudis had no motive requiring this scale of revenge
+10 # Jim Rocket 2016-05-14 23:05
That we know of. There's a significant piece of the puzzle missing. These pages may be a beginning.
+1 # Cassandra2012 2016-05-15 15:02
Hired hands for the Bush family in xchange for oil$$?
+21 # jbell94521 2016-05-14 20:10
There is precedent for the U.S. government covering up murderous attacks by foreign governments when believes that there is too much to lose in terms of exposing its own dirty secrets by publicly holding the foreign government accountable, or when the foreign government is a friendly or client state of the U.S. government.

In 1967 the Israeli military launched a brutal and murderous attack on a U.S. spy ship that was operating off the coast of Egypt in the Mediterranean Sea. The ship was the USS Liberty. The casualties were shockingly high, the USS Liberty had not made any aggressive move towards the Israeli forces, and there was legitimate reason for the attack. The USS Liberty was in International waters at the time.

The Israeli government claimed it was a case of mistaken identity, and that it thought the ship belonged to some other nation that was engaged in hostilities, (Egypt? Not likely. At the time Egypt did not have ships like the Liberty, nor did any of the Arab States Israel was on the brink of war with at the time.)

The U.S. Government launched a fake investigation, like its investigation into Saudi involvement in 911, and concluded that Israel had simply made an understandable mistake due to the tense stand-off with Egypt at the time. The military actions of the 1967 Mid East War were just getting started at the time of the attack on the Liberty.

BTW, the real cover-up of 911 is that it was an inside job, orchestrated by the U.S. government.
+1 # Caliban 2016-05-16 01:36
"The real cover-up of 911 is that it was an inside job, orchestrated by the U.S. government"--Ev idence? Motive?
+9 # Jayceecool 2016-05-14 20:26
If you think Americans are disgusted with our government now...
+16 # 2016-05-14 21:02
We keep learning secrets because we've never been told the truth.

I became a "truther" on Oct. 26, 2001, and after constant research my beliefs are even stronger
+13 # 9/11Truther 2016-05-14 21:39
Yes, Mr jazzman, I'm aware bL was not a happy camper about there having been U.S. boots on the ground in the Muslim holy land, but what reason would he have had for, three times after 9/11, denying he had anything to do with, or any prior knowledge of, the attacks? He was already the world's most wanted bad guy for the bombings of the U.S. embassies in East Africa, and the USS Cole (in Yemen was it?). Surely he would have claimed responsibility for such a victory against the Great Satan, a claim no individual or group has made -- except for a bunch of scruffy al Qaeda ignoramuses who have made it up in their own very tiny minds that their fearless leader was the mastermind.
Also, the 9/11 inside job THEOREM allows for the likelihood that all four passenger jets and their passengers and crews did come to a dreadful end. It's the manner in which that occurred that is in contention. For instance, there is considerable evidence that the fabled Flight 93 of "Let's roll!" fame was in fact shot down over Pennsylvania by the United States Air Force.
+27 # Colleen Clark 2016-05-14 21:41
None of these comments yet address some facts about the 9/11 event that were reported before the airplanes hit the WTC buildings or just after.

1. In early August, 2001, George Tenet (CIA) made a trip to visit Pres. Bush at his ranch in TX. The memo was entitled "Bin Laden determined to strike within US."

2. After the attack Condi Rice (Secy of State) claimed that no one imagined that such an attack from the air was possible. However, in June 2001 there was a G-7 (or whatever #) meeting in Genoa. The Italian gov't closed the air space over Genoa in the interests of security.

3. Per the Michael Moore movie "Farenheit 911" the first visitor to the White House after the Twin Towers fell - a few days later - was Prince Bandar, the Saudi ambassador to the US. Moore has footage in the film of GWB and Prince Bandar on the balcony of the private quarters.

4. in the non-stop TV coverage in the fall of 2001 Congressional investigations two American consular officers from the US Embassy in Riyadh testified that they were instructed (as a matter of routine?) not to scrutinize requests from Saudi citizens for visas to travel to the US.

5. Alarm bells had been rung in the months of 2001 before Sept. about enrollees at US flight schools who didn't want to learn how to take off and land jumbo jets, but only how to fly them.

6. Coleen Rowley, a US FBI, agent had tried to raise the alarm in the early part of 2001. She was ignored.

Was the US govt just incompetent or????
+3 # Caliban 2016-05-16 01:41
Unfortunately there is plenty of evidence that the US government--par ticularly during the "W" years--is often "incompetent".
+23 # James Marcus 2016-05-14 22:35
An Inside Job is an Inside Job, no matter which Perp was Framed where.
Pointless discourse.....
Were the Soldiers emerging from '7', yelling 'clear back; this building is coming down', 'responsible' for it's demise? How long does it take to set up a building like that for demolition? ditto, the twin towers, which also were felled by demolition?
This Saudis thing is just a Diversion
+11 # LionMousePudding 2016-05-14 23:10
I have been waiting for 11 years (I was innocent till 2005) for anyone in truthout comments to dare to say a word about 9/11.

Better late than never.
+9 # Shelbey 2016-05-15 00:16
An open secret?
Most people I know have known this since 2001. We never doubted Saudi or our own governments involvement in the whole thing. But it was such a horrible thing to acknowledge that most of us don't really want to believe that we have been duped and our reactions controlled in such a way. We can't talk about it because, after all, it's dangerous to discuss or even believe, something so contrary to what we've been raised to believe is the "American Way." No one wants to be labeled a "conspiracy theorist." No one whom we perceive as powerful seems to be concerned or willing to do anything about it. So we carry these open secrets, and hope to live long enough for the truth to be told, and for those responsible to be held accountable.

We'd hoped that with the election of Barack Obama, we'd get to the bottom of it. Then, by leaving the past in the past, it seems that our hopes were dashed. Convenient to the previous administration and expedient of a new President left with a country with a significant amount of carnage to be cleaned up, 911 seemed like a distant and less urgent issue that should be negotiated away.
+8 # elkingo 2016-05-15 00:33
So if the Saudis are in some way responsible,and we cover it up, are "we" i.the gov. not in some way complicit? Why would the gov. assassinate 3,000 plus innocents, mostly American? The mind reels. And what about the very convincing scientific information that the towers could not have succumbed to jet fuel alone? Will we ever know? And again, why would we do this to ourselves?
+2 # Cassandra2012 2016-05-15 15:07
WE the people are not the in-we of the Bush family, Cheney, ALEC et al.... Two different 'we's.
+14 # itchyvet 2016-05-15 01:06
QUOTE, " Why Do We Keep Learning New Secrets About 9/11?" UNQUOTE.
The answer would be, "we", that is the World, are not learning "new secrets about 9/11". We already knew this information from the very first days of 9/11. When all aircraft were grounded, with the EXCEPTION of Saudi airlines which were packed chock full of Saudis all abandoning the U.S. with the blessing of the Whitehouse. Funny that U.S. citizens have been unawares of this gigantic FACT right from the beginning.
Or have they simply REFUSED TO AKNOWLEDGE the fact, afraid to consider the consequences of such an action ???
B.T.W. has anyone ever considered how long it takes to prepare a high rise building for demolition with explosives ? Here we have no less than THREE SUCH BUILDINGS, one of which was not hit at all by anything, the owner even admitted on World Television, he instructed the building to be pulled????
That statement from his own mouth has been TOTALY IGNORED by the media and the Government, as has the time it takes to plan and plant the explosives to bring the building down in the first place ???
WHY, are these events ignored and not investigated further ???? Who had the contract to plan the demolition and plant the explosives ????
+6 # Dred Pierce 2016-05-15 01:29
With the help of the NEOCON JEWS, the NEOCON Americans created the equivalent of 'Pearl Harbor' in order to force their idea of the world on the rest of us. The decision to attack Iraq was a JEWISH position. Take a look at the Zionist Jews who held positions in the Pentagon during W's hellhole reign. Perle, Wolfowitz, Feith, Luttwak, Zakheim, Kissinger, Libby, Satloff and on and on. There were more than 50 Zionists working in the Pentagon when 9/11 happened. It is time to admit the obvious and tell the Zionist Israelis to get the hell out of American politics. The one's mentioned above all deserve their Nurnberg trial complete with hanging by the neck until their stench is a memory. Remember 9/11.
0 # Cassandra2012 2016-05-15 15:08
Another unrepentant mindless bigot heard from...

Bush, Cheney, Condelizza, Rumsfeld, et al are all supposed to be 'Christians', aren't they?
+7 # samd471 2016-05-15 06:51
There were 3 Mossad agents on Israeli TV that stated they were at 9/11 to document the event.
No bodies were found at Shanksville(Fli ght 93)
You need more?
0 # dascher 2016-05-15 18:38
When did the 9/11 conspiracy movement shift its focus from "Bush/Cheney inside job" to "the Jews did it"?? I have avoided their drivel for 15 years and thus, apparently missed the rise of anti-Semitism within their rants. Did they just get tired of waiting for Bush/Cheney (who could not possibly keep ANYTHING secret for 6 months, let alone 15 years) to confess?

This conversation is horrifying.

The Twin Towers were not only among the ugliest and least functional buildings in New York City but they were also built differently from other "steel frame" buildings. So it is not surprising that nobody ever saw any other "steel frame" building collapse from a fire. The design is no longer used by anybody building a new building.
0 # Radscal 2016-05-15 21:17
Here's a strange thing. When Bush, Cheney, et al were implicated in 9/11, I didn't hear anyone saying we were blaming "da Christians," or even "da white guys."

But when evidence of involvement by some Jewish right-wing Zionists is mentioned, people claim we're blaming "da Joose" and so must be "anti-Semites."

Funny how that works.

BTW: Dick Cheney was part of the Continuity of Government secret plans, meeting several times a year for at least 3 decades. Funny how he never mentioned that, eh? I mean, considering you say he couldn't keep a secret and all. ;-)
0 # dascher 2016-05-16 12:42
"Jewish right-wing Zionists"?? Is it important to you that they are Jewish? or "right-wing Zionists"? Their being Jewish should be as irrelevant as if they were "Christian right-wing Zionists" (like so many of the "Evangelical right" who keep praying for the state of Israel to bring the end days).

The rants are starting to sound as unhinged as Trump's. Take a breath and get your head screwed back on straight.
0 # Radscal 2016-05-16 15:22
I didn't mention Jewishness until the accusation of being "anti-Semitic" and blaming "the Jews."

Scroll back up and you'll see I name an Anglo-American- Zionist Empire.
0 # tpmco 2016-05-16 06:02
I get so sick of reading articles like this. Especially when it gets right down to the end and I read "Zelikow fired a staffer..."

Who was the staffer? When did he get fired? And what do you surmise was the reason?

You expect us to swallow this bullshit?

I agree with the action of following up on the Saudi-angle of this event. All of the major foreign-actors seem to be Saudi Arabians, or at least Saudi-connected . So why beat around the bush with innuendo concerning a staffer. You've got a hog in a poke, why not go for his throat?

Just curious.
+4 # Citizen7 2016-05-16 16:21
Kudos to RSN for providing a forum for this necessary discussion. The Daily KOS has explicitly forbidden discussion of the questions surrounding the 9/11/01 event. What are they so afraid of?
0 # futhark 2016-05-21 09:37
Daily KOS seems to me to be a conduit for information consistent with the Democratic Party insider establishment line, exemplified by Debbie Wasserman Schultz and Hilary Clinton, both of whom are heavily invested in the orthodox 9/11 narrative. Hence, the ban on anything that would weaken public confidence in their positions.
+1 # 9/11Truther 2016-05-18 07:19
Hey, Guys, I'm still waiting to learn why Saudi Arabia attacked the United States, when, as I outlined previously, Osama bin Laden had nothing to do with 9/11. Right away, on that date,the Bush White House used the classic Joseph Goebbels Nazi propaganda technique of repeating a big enough lie enough times -- in that case that: "Bin Laden and al Qaeda did it! Bin Laden and al Qaeda did it!" -- that the American people, and much of the world, didn't, as is usual with that technique, EVENTUALLY all come to believe it, but bought that complete and utter b.s. from the word go.
0 # futhark 2016-05-21 09:31
The trick is not so much to propagate a lie as it is to demonize and denigrate anyone who may be bold or insightful enough to question the lie. Thus, a "9/11 Truther" becomes identified as some kind of nut case or traitor rather than an honest skeptic exploring how alternative narratives may fit known facts, supposedly the job of any legal or journalistic investigator.

Even those lacking familiarity with the history of Nazi Germany can see an analogy of the Big Lie technique in the Road Runner cartoons, in which the recently clobbered Wile E. Coyote is directed by the Road Runner to look elsewhere for the guilty party.
0 # 9/11Truther 2016-05-18 08:57
And also, and I know this because I'm writing a book about 9/11 and I've researched it, I'm sorry to have to say, that, with a few exceptions, such as Dick Cheney, W's Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, and our darling Republican-in-D emocrat's-cloth ing vying for the U.S. presidency -- HILLARY CLINTON -- just about all of the neoconservative s, the first generation of whom hijacked America's foreign policy decades ago, are of Jewish decent. And that is why the neocons, together with their insane ideology that it is the historical destiny of "the exceptional country" in their eyes, the United States of America, to rule the world unilaterally, without the rivalry of any other superpower such as Russia or China, have been a significant part of the brainlessness behind the regime change that the U.S. "successfully" instigated on Israel's behalf in Iraq, and is now trying to bring about for the Zionists, in Syria and Iran. The neocons are also responsible for the other monumental, America-precipi tated, economic and humanitarian disasters, besides that of Iraq, that are what's left of Ukraine and Libya -- the latter having been, to a great extent, "masterminded" by good old neoconservative warmonger -- Hillary Clinton! -- as well as the advent of the worst terrorist faction in the history of the world, the Islamic State, and the invasion of Europe by more than a million refugees.
0 # 9/11Truther 2016-05-18 09:02
And, to continue, the biggest prize in the neocons' mad dream of hegemony, is to be awarded to themselves, when -- dream on -- there is regime change in -- Russia!

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