RSN Fundraising Banner
FB Share
Email This Page
add comment
Print

Excerpt: "There is no doubt in my mind that the Israeli occupation is ugly, it's vicious, it's brutal, and it needs to not just be brought to attention, it needs to be brought to an end."

Cornel West. (photo: BET)
Cornel West. (photo: BET)


Cornel West: Gaza Is the Hood on Steroids, Thanks to Israel

By David Palumbo-Liu, Salon

02 March 15

 

Cornel West speaks with a Stanford professor about the divestment effort and Palestinian activism

ne of the fundamental questions with regard to the critique of — and activism against — the Israeli occupation: How does this connect up with other social movements, and other struggles? Is the case of Israel and Palestine so specific, so complex, as to resist analogy? And if so, what does that mean for those who would be inclined to sympathize with the plight of the Palestinians, but unable to see their way clear to act in solidarity with them, as they might for others?

These are pressing and difficult problems, yet increasingly, and especially on college campuses, and in academic organizations, people are willing to discuss and debate things like divestment, as well as academic and cultural boycotts that refuse to endorse the status quo. Indeed, earlier this month a group of 600 artists that included Ken Loach, Brian Eno, Khalid Abdalla and Haim Bresheeth announced they were endorsing a cultural boycott of Israel.

At a recent event at Stanford, where I am a professor of comparative literature, Cornel West paused in the midst of a speech to praise the student organizers who had put forward a bill to ask the Stanford trustees to divest; the bill had failed by only one vote. (And, on February 18, there would be a revote, in which the bill was passed, 10-4-1.) West made a point of insisting that raising the Palestinian flag should not be seen as an act of narrow nationalism, but rather as an act of solidarity with an oppressed people, and as part of the effort to grant them their right to self determination.

Afterwards, I spoke about how the issue of Israel-Palestine was registering not only with young people, but also with older progressives and intellectuals, and about the linkages between civil rights struggles in the US and abroad.

First of all, let me ask you: Why do you endorse the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions movement? In what ways do the movement and its goals resonate with your longstanding activism, your values and principles?

Well I always proceed based on moral criteria and spiritual standards that have to do with keeping track of the humanity of persons. And there is no doubt in my mind that the Israeli occupation is ugly, it’s vicious, it’s brutal, and it needs to not just be brought to attention, it needs to be brought to an end. It’s also true that I am against the occupation of the Tibetan people and the occupation of Kashmir and others, but this particular occupation is one that deserves our attention precisely because as an American citizen my tax money is being used to perpetuate that ugly occupation.

Let me draw out a possible link between your anti-racist activism and your support of the Palestinian people. After Ferguson, a lot of people drew the parallel to Gaza. But as soon as they did, many others chimed in and said, “No, those cases are not at all the same and you can’t make that comparison.” And in fact when Angela Davis was invited to give the Martin Luther King, Jr. convocation for the city of Santa Cruz, Calif., recently, she got a lot of criticism for drawing out the parallels. What are your thoughts on that, how do you see making a legitimate case for the connection between Ferguson and Gaza?

Well first, in terms of the various kinds of Zionist critiques, we make it clear that this has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with anti-Jewish hatred or anti-Jewish prejudice. This has to do with a moral and spiritual and political critique of occupation. Secondly, there is no doubt that Gaza is not just a “kind of” concentration camp, it is the hood on steroids. Now in the black community, located within the American empire, you do have forms of domination and subordination, forms of police surveillance and so forth, so that we are not making claims of identity, we are making claims of forms of domination that must be connected. And those are not the only two — we could talk about the Dalit people in India and the ways that their humanity is being lost and there are parallels there; we could talk about peasants in Mexico. So all of these are going to have similarities and dissimilarities. But there is no doubt that for the Ferguson moment in America and the anti-occupation moment in the Israel-Palestinian struggle there is a very important connection to make and I think we should continue to make it.

Well at one of our events today you called me a literary critic, but you’re a literary critic too—I’ve read some of your essays–so I want to ask you a question: How do we change the narrative around Israel-Palestine? How does that story change when one version is so ingrained in the American psyche — and it’s a particular narrative of the founding of the state of Israel as a Jewish state, and one that continues to justify the occupation and the colonial settler project of the state of Israel?

Well I am not the sophisticated literary critic you are, but I can say this: You can just look at the history of the divestment movement here at Stanford. You told me that two years ago when the student government voted on a divestment resolution, the vote was one “Yes,” seven “No,” and five abstentions. And just a few days ago when a similar divestment bill was presented, the vote was nine “Yes,” five “No,” and one abstention. The narrative is being changed and it’s only by means of voices — new stories and analysis, and bodies on the line, not just here but also across national boundaries — to shift the court of world opinion. And that’s precisely what is taking place. And of course at the center of it is the unbelievable courage of the Palestinian brothers and sisters against just overwhelming odds.

One last question: When you hear some people say, in the face of protest, agitation, critique, and civil disobedience, “we have to have peace, we need to obey the law,” like Obama did after the Ferguson verdict—you often have to think that it is precisely those whom the status quo serves, and in fact those who have the power to maintain the status quo in their favor, who are saying that we need to maintain peace (as they see it) at all cost. How do you move people out of their sense of privilege and entitlement?

Well first I think we have to be very clear that the call for the end of the vicious Israeli occupation is today a kind of litmus test for progressives, because you have sacrifice so much. There is no doubt that you will be called an anti-semite, that you will be called a chauvinist; there is no doubt you will be called someone who is downplaying the history of oppression of Jews. For so long, we have allowed not just the conservatives, not just the neo-liberals, but even progressive intellectuals to be silent when it comes to Palestinian peoples. So we have to call into question our own academic colleagues, we have to call into question our own fellow intellectuals.

And as a black intellectual it means I have to make the connection between the Obama apologists — who, as intellectuals, hide and conceal, not the silence, but the promotion of the military might that facilitates the killing of 500 Palestinian babies — with not one mumbling word being said by a President as the apologist intellectuals themselves don’t say a mumbling word. That needs to be shattered, that needs to be called into question. One can no longer say one is a serious progressive, let alone committed to moral integrity, without lifting one’s voice to call for an end to the Occupation of the Palestinian people. We have got to make that more and more a central part of our action.

David Palumbo-Liu is the Louise Hewlett Nixon Professor at Stanford University. Follow him on Twitter at @palumboliu.


e-max.it: your social media marketing partner
 

Comments   

A note of caution regarding our comment sections:

For months a stream of media reports have warned of coordinated propaganda efforts targeting political websites based in the U.S., particularly in the run-up to the 2016 presidential election.

We too were alarmed at the patterns we were, and still are, seeing. It is clear that the provocateurs are far more savvy, disciplined, and purposeful than anything we have ever experienced before.

It is also clear that we still have elements of the same activity in our article discussion forums at this time.

We have hosted and encouraged reader expression since the turn of the century. The comments of our readers are the most vibrant, best-used interactive feature at Reader Supported News. Accordingly, we are strongly resistant to interrupting those services.

It is, however, important to note that in all likelihood hardened operatives are attempting to shape the dialog our community seeks to engage in.

Adapt and overcome.

Marc Ash
Founder, Reader Supported News

 
+21 # trystero777 2015-03-02 10:31
The sad truth is that Israel needs Gaza and the Palestinian conflict in order to survive. Without a common enemy Israel would tear itself apart internally with in-fighting between its conservative religious community and its liberal sectarians.
 
 
-48 # kalpal 2015-03-02 12:11
Strange that it did not do so prior to Hamas insisting on attacking Israel. Yo0ur ignorance of life in Gaza and of Israel brands you as a silly nincompoop.
 
 
+11 # Douglas Jack 2015-03-03 08:11
kalpal, RE: "Strange that . . . " Anyone paying attention to 100% of Congress Representatives & Senators voting to support Israeli genocide in Gaza & 10,000 other events over centuries, know that; Finance-Media-M ilitary-Industr ial-Legislative -Complex oligarch moneys control US, Canada, NATO, Israel & Saudi government, economy & institutions completely as colonial nations. Oligarchs have paid for expensive violent colonization & controlled us since we invaded profoundly democratic 1st Nations here in the Americas. Europeans fled a dysfunctional ecologically & economically War destroyed Europe. 1st Nations & indigenous peoples welcomed us with open arms & all settlers could do was violate every human & natural law upon which their constitutions are based, thus socially & environmentally soiling this new home. I ask you as a human being to join your brothers & sisters in world-wide mutual-aid & leave your violence, exploitation & exhaustive resource extraction aside for a better world. https://sites.google.com/site/indigenecommunity/home/2-mutual-aid
 
 
-42 # AlsoSprachAlice 2015-03-02 11:08
Every issue has two sides. RSN consistently chooses supporters of the Palestinian side. Dreadful things happen all over the world, Somalia, Congo, Russia and Syria killings its own citizens. Here at home treatment of Native Americans isn't so nice. West knows about that? We might consider standing up to the Russians. There's a threat for you. Or at least say something. Afraid someone might go after you? But Israel is no threat. Just imagine what would happen if Mexico threw rockets over the fence. Or if Mexicans blew up our busses. Israel defends itself like everybody else with any sense. before you focus on Israel look at what other countries are doing, look at US foreign policy for the last eighty years. Guatamala, Nicaragua, Panama, Chile, Vietnam, Iraq just to name a few.
 
 
+30 # reiverpacific 2015-03-02 11:31
Quoting AlsoSprachAlice:
Every issue has two sides. RSN consistently chooses supporters of the Palestinian side. Dreadful things happen all over the world, Somalia, Congo, Russia and Syria killings its own citizens. Here at home treatment of Native Americans isn't so nice. West knows about that? We might consider standing up to the Russians. There's a threat for you. Or at least say something. Afraid someone might go after you? But Israel is no threat. Just imagine what would happen if Mexico threw rockets over the fence. Or if Mexicans blew up our busses. Israel defends itself like everybody else with any sense. before you focus on Israel look at what other countries are doing, look at US foreign policy for the last eighty years. Guatamala, Nicaragua, Panama, Chile, Vietnam, Iraq just to name a few.

Was your omission of Iran deliberate? as it is very relevant to the current situation and supposedly the main thrust of NuttyYahoo's forthcoming propaganda speech to the US Congressional war-crazy zoo.
The popular analogy with Mexico is moot, as they have no claims to land in the US -they once had but that's another discussion.
Comparing a desperate people using homemade rockets from scraps is even more moot and apologist.
Apart from the fact that Israel has a state of the art military including nukes, there is the constant kidnapping of Palestinian children, intimidation of elders, destruction of millennia-old olive groves "just to name a few" crimes.
 
 
-35 # kalpal 2015-03-02 12:16
So lets add Iran to the litany of evils practiced by man against humanity.

In the case of Israel, the complaints have virtually nothing to do with objections to Zionism unless one can claim that ignorance of what goes on in the area is no bar to commenting ignorantly about it while in denial that Israel is a jewish nation and ergo is totally deserving of being criticized for having the gall to defend itself.

Gaza prospered while Under israeli governance. It never prospered under Egyptian rule and is going down the tubes as hamas insists on using the citizenry as human shields and PR objects.
 
 
+3 # Kootenay Coyote 2015-03-12 09:23
"Mexico...they have no claims to land in the US..."

Not New Mexico, Arizona & California? Or where did those states come from, anyway?
 
 
+22 # torch and pitchfork 2015-03-02 12:33
Just imagine what Mexicans would have done had the Jewish State chosen Baja California as the "promised land". Actually, that's not a half bad idea, maybe a deal can be struck before the coming end of days that the fundamentalist Christians seek as a self fulfilling prophesy.
 
 
+23 # lfeuille 2015-03-02 17:21
Quoting AlsoSprachAlice:
Every issue has two sides. RSN consistently chooses supporters of the Palestinian side. Dreadful things happen all over the world, Somalia, Congo, Russia and Syria killings its own citizens. Here at home treatment of Native Americans isn't so nice. West knows about that? We might consider standing up to the Russians. There's a threat for you. Or at least say something. Afraid someone might go after you? But Israel is no threat. Just imagine what would happen if Mexico threw rockets over the fence. Or if Mexicans blew up our busses. Israel defends itself like everybody else with any sense. before you focus on Israel look at what other countries are doing, look at US foreign policy for the last eighty years. Guatamala, Nicaragua, Panama, Chile, Vietnam, Iraq just to name a few.


Not all sides have equal validity. Israel is very much a threat to the Palestinians. Because it is not an obvious to the US is not a reason for progressives, and RSN is a progressive enterprise, to look the other way. The relative number of dead on each side sways how we judge the parties involved. On that score Israel loses the sympathy of progressives. And in reality, Israel is a threat to the US in that it is undermining US policy in the region and doing it with US tax dollars.
 
 
+27 # Terry Allen 2015-03-02 11:22
Thank you Rothchild Zionists.....

What a dirty little operation Israel was and is....The more one learns of Zionism and how Israel was formed, the real goal in it's formation and the lying propaganda about it being a Jewish state, I am beginning to ask, does Israel in it's present form really have a right to exist?

Pull the UN charter....dism antle the whole mess, take back all the nuclear weapons we gave them and maybe THEN we will finally have peace in the region.

I can't wait for the response over my statement, virulent attacks and just plain BS from some of you i will receive..... but i don't make this statement lightly and no ADL, I'm NOT anti-Semitic... .
 
 
-42 # kalpal 2015-03-02 12:18
Just because you are an obsessive hater of Jews, excuse me if I confuse Jews with Zionists, is no justification for your spewing hate filled mendacious venom.
 
 
+25 # Terry Allen 2015-03-02 14:32
Quoting kalpal:
Just because you are an obsessive hater of Jews, excuse me if I confuse Jews with Zionists, is no justification for your spewing hate filled mendacious venom.


LOL.....You are confused when you equate Jews with Zionists......y ou obviously have no idea what you are talking about....

See what happens to someone when their only source of information is the US corporate media.....

Remember Joe Biden said you don't have to be Jewish to be a Zionist!!!
 
 
+14 # lfeuille 2015-03-02 17:25
Quoting kalpal:
Just because you are an obsessive hater of Jews, excuse me if I confuse Jews with Zionists, is no justification for your spewing hate filled mendacious venom.


Tell it to Jewish Voices for Peace. I first heard about BDS from them.
 
 
+23 # Merlin 2015-03-02 14:18
Terry Allen 2015-03-02 11:22

“What a dirty little operation Israel was and is....The more one learns of Zionism and how Israel was formed, the real goal in it's formation and the lying propaganda about it being a Jewish state, I am beginning to ask, does Israel in it's present form really have a right to exist?”

You have carefully chosen your words here, and as you note: “…i don't make this statement lightly and no ADL, I'm NOT anti-Semitic…” I agree with your sentiment here, and share your frustration and anger. There MUST be a recognition of the difference between Judaism and Zionism. Mixing up the two, is a trick Zionist shills here on RSN, (everywhere actually,) love to use. As I have noted in previous posts, I am anti Zionist to the hilt. I care about, and love, the Jewish friends I have. This is not a religious issue, but religion is the only justification these violent Zionist bastards have to promote their warmongering!

Yes, we all need more education about the Zionist agenda. Start with the Yinon Plan and go backwards and forwards from there. There is a ton of stuff on Google. For the USA’s part in this vicious drama, read the PNAC paper as a start, and begin connecting names like Perle, Wolfowitz and a whole slew of others who created the warmongering plan for nutty yahoo back in the late 90s.

The sordid history of the Zionist violent agenda needs to be exposed; not hidden as it is, and will continue to be.
 
 
+12 # Terry Allen 2015-03-03 00:57
Exactly Merlin, I had to stop watching the corporate media, I found myself getting mentally lazy buying the BS presented as axioms.

Now the bigger question is how do we end this mayhem including the war crimes our military is committing against nations in our so called national interest. The bankers and the multi-national corporations have hijacked our military as their own mercenary army to enforce THEIR financial and political interests and we pay for it!! Then their media insidiously convinces us that it's patriotic to support the troops in what ever they do and that bailing out banks too big to fail is saving America.....etc . etc. etc...it's sickening.

The Zionist operation is a smaller version of the whole and is being identified as a separate unrelated situation. Boycotts work when directed at a product or one company but here we are dealing with an evil ideology, big money and power and I don't think a boycott will work here. Good try though Cornel.

This Zionist problem is also the Wall Street problem, the shadow government problem, the military industrial complex problem, NATO, Rothchilds, Royal Families, GMOs, etc. etc. Each is an arm of a evil gigantic octopus which makes Obama and our Congress impotent because of it's insignificance.

How do we kill the head of the dragon to end the nightmare and create a better world without war for humanity? We first must identify it....
 
 
+8 # Merlin 2015-03-03 08:04
Terry Allen,
Again, you have nailed it!
“How do we kill the head of the dragon to end the nightmare and create a better world without war for humanity? We first must identify it….”

This identity crisis is very apparent and it is the real core of our problem. In as much as the facts are pretty apparent, the failure to “understand” or “see” what is happening is not a matter of logic and reason. Arguing facts is not the answer, yet that is the preferred solution. It would be so easy if that were the case.

This is solidly an emotional problem. An unwillingness to face the emotional “hell” or reality. As an example; understanding and accepting that Obama is a war criminal by unilaterally droning sovereign nations, is simply not an acceptable idea to huge numbers of people in the US. The facts are indisputable, yet there is great denial. Another emotional idea that is unacceptable, is that our Presidential father (Clinton, Bush or Obama to name the last 3) figure is not working for us, “The People,” but is doing the work assigned him by the oligarchic elite.

Continued below…
 
 
+8 # Merlin 2015-03-03 08:04
Continued…

Here is my view of what must be understood in a nutshell. This is the big picture that connects the dots.

We are dealing with the problem of power and control on a world scale, by a small cadre of people. This is the ideology, or philosophy, that creates the agenda that is followed. All policy decisions flow from that agenda.

Money creates the opportunity for power, and the control of resources creates the money.

Put every, (did I say every? Yes I did,) “political happening” in the world into the prescription above, and a picture begins to rapidly appear.

Long story short: The New World Order… controlled by an elite few using their own international laws and backed by the military might of the US. The corporatist elite has been working toward this goal for 100 or more years. Think of the oil, steel, and railroad barons of the 1890s.

The TPP is setting this up as a legal reality, now. The signers of this phony trade agreement are signing away their sovereign rights as nations. They will become subservient to the corporatist (fascist) elite.
 
 
+18 # madams12 2015-03-02 14:19
[quote name="Terry Allen"]Thank you Rothchild Zionists.....
.." take back all the nuclear weapons we gave them and maybe THEN we will finally have peace in the region...."

Was in agreement w/all u said except statement about "we gave them"...do not ever forget their THEFT of plutonium from American plant in Pennsylvania (NUMEC) and the site contamination there, which US tax payers are being charged to clean up...another (hidden) cost of their special welfare expenses to US. See what the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists published: http://thebulletin.org/did-israel-steal-bomb-grade-uranium-united-states7056 or Google NUMEC theft.
 
 
+10 # Terry Allen 2015-03-03 01:08
Quoting madams12:
[quote name="Terry Allen"]Thank you Rothchild Zionists.....
.." take back all the nuclear weapons we gave them and maybe THEN we will finally have peace in the region...."

Was in agreement w/all u said except statement about "we gave them"...do not ever forget their THEFT of plutonium from American plant in Pennsylvania (NUMEC) and the site contamination there, which US tax payers are being charged to clean up...another (hidden) cost of their special welfare expenses to US. See what the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists published: http://thebulletin.org/did-israel-steal-bomb-grade-uranium-united-states7056 or Google NUMEC theft.


Yes Madams12, exactly....but as these things go, the theft would only be possible if our security was taken down or with help from the CIA, either way they were "allowed" to steal it....thus, "we" gave it to them...
 
 
+4 # Pikewich 2015-03-03 17:52
And it is sometimes fun to remember the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty on the 8th on June 1967. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident)

That attack "...killed 34 crew members (naval officers, seamen, two Marines, and one civilian), wounded 171 crew members, and severely damaged the ship.[4] At the time, the ship was in international waters north of the Sinai Peninsula, about 25.5 nmi (29.3 mi; 47.2 km) northwest from the Egyptian city of Arish."

Imagine if any other country had done that to us.
 
 
-28 # Dennis Newman 2015-03-02 11:31
Cornel West explicitly calls both Obama and Netanyahu "war criminals," but not the terrorist organizations -- HAMAS, Islamic Jihad, and the terrorsit wing of Fatah -- operating in Gaza and the West Bank. While one could critically examine the rest of his vile Israel-hating thesis in detail -- and, make no mistake, anyone who hates Israel the way he and his ilk do are singling out Israel for a reason -- that it is the Jewish state, and, hence, they are anti-Semites, their brays of denial notwithstanding -- that fact -- West failing to call out known terrorists while falsely branding leaders of the democratic nations who lead the world in counter-terrori sm as terrorists -- makes clear that he is a supporter, not an opponent of terrorism, as well as a hater of the U.S. and of Israel. The fringe that in paroxysms of bigotry admixed with intellectual dishonesty admire and emulate West and his ilk are, beyond foolish and dangerous, serving the interest of the monstrous, fascistic, enslaving, murderous forces now at work in the world.
 
 
+21 # pietheyn07 2015-03-02 11:56
Dennis: Thought I'd find you here, playing your old broken record. Did you give your buddy Brux the day off? Cornel will feel slighted.
 
 
+9 # Terry Allen 2015-03-03 01:18
Quoting pietheyn07:
Dennis: Thought I'd find you here, playing your old broken record. Did you give your buddy Brux the day off? Cornel will feel slighted.


LOL pietheyn07...De nnis sounds more like a skipping DVD....

HAMAS, Islamic Jihad, and the terrorist wing of Fatah were all formed by the Zonists, with financial help from the British and American interests....LO L....like al qaeda came from the Mujahideen, a Zbigniew Brzezinski creation....and ISIS is financed by the Saudis...... see how the terrorist pretzel twists?
 
 
-21 # kalpal 2015-03-02 12:20
How can anyone call religious homicidal maniacs and cut-throats war criminals? It makes no sense. Just Ask ISIS and they will explain that Allah demands his followers be murderers, slave traders, cut-throats, rapists and looters.
 
 
+22 # reiverpacific 2015-03-02 14:56
Quoting kalpal:
How can anyone call religious homicidal maniacs and cut-throats war criminals? It makes no sense. Just Ask ISIS and they will explain that Allah demands his followers be murderers, slave traders, cut-throats, rapists and looters.


O' you mean LIKUD? Right on!
Not making any statement of approval for the ISL scum but it was the utterly predictable excuse for lemming-like Americans Dimwits-led US/UK attacks on Iraq and the subsequent failed nation, factionalism and fragmentation into warring territories that was the greatest recruiting flag the extremists could ask for -and Bin Laden knew and planned around it.
And the former Muja Hadeen, Taliban and Al-Queda eras, all armed when it suited the US and molded into operating groups eventually provoked by US aggression.
Remember the Old Testament (Jewish) book of "Fire and Brimstone" and "I thy God am a JEALOUS God"? -and many other "Death to the unbelievers" threats.
Short or selective memory you are.
 
 
+13 # Merlin 2015-03-02 16:00
Dennis
… failing to call out known terrorists while falsely branding leaders of the democratic nations who lead the world in counter-terrori sm as terrorists -- makes clear that I am a supporter, not an opponent of terrorism, as well as a hater of the U.S. and of Israel. The fringe that in paroxysms of bigotry admixed with intellectual dishonesty admire and emulate me and my ilk are, beyond foolish and dangerous, serving the interest of the monstrous, fascistic, enslaving, murderous forces now at work in the world.

Here, I fixed it for ya! Don't want you say the wrong thing accidentally. Tryin ta be a good guy here, just like you are. Right, buddy? You know, doin ya a favor…

just saying

Hahahaha. Good one dennis. You have actually described yourself pretty well there. Thanks for the laugh. You Zionist shills are a riot.

Now don't run away like Bruxy did after his mommy took his computer privileges away. We need you here to laugh at.
 
 
+9 # Pikewich 2015-03-03 18:03
Well Dennis, it is simply a matter of scale.

The last time Israel "Mowed the Lawn" in Gaza, there were over 2000 mostly civilians (>75% according to international counts) Palestinians killed. There were 3 Israeli's killed by the home made rockets. (You should check those out. I could make those in my garage). No guidance systems at all. Point, light and run.

When IDF invaded Gaza, Palestinian fighters managed to kill 63 soldiers (a figure they are proud of as it showed an advance of their defensive strategies). They paid a heavy price for the 63 soldiers, but that is one of the main reasons the killing by fighter jet, helicopter gunship and drone stopped. Israeli's get upset when THEIR children die.

Now that it is possible for Israel to be tried for war crimes in the Hague, we shall see how the civilized world views the "Mowing the Lawn".

Now... Obama. When has it been OK to murder people anywhere in the world because they MIGHT do something bad someday?
 
 
-29 # lnason@umassd.edu 2015-03-02 11:43
Israel voluntarily withdrew from Gaza and, to thank them for making a move toward a peaceful settlement, the PLO tossed thousands of rockets at their schools and hospitals and residential neighborhoods.

Israel is highly unlikely to end its brutal and nasty occupation of the West Bank until and unless they receive some assurance that Fatah will not similarly take this move toward peace as a sign of weakness and use their autonomy as the PLO has done, to rain devastation down on civilian populations.

We need to withdraw from this conflict and allow Israel to defend its civilians and convince the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank to stop their genocidal attacks. Our involvement and the involvement of Hamas and other Western nations and other Arab nations is only prolonging the agony for both Israelis and Palestinians.

Lee Nason
New Bedford, Massachusetts
 
 
-31 # kalpal 2015-03-02 12:24
Anyone willing to make peace with Muslims admits that Muslims are the apex of humanity and the peacemakers are Dhimmis. At least that is the impression I get from the murderous liars called Palestinian Arab Jihadists.

As can clearly be seen by Arabs, including the oil states, being the poorest, most ignorant of all Muslims, that is what Allah has determined is their reward for being his adherents.
 
 
+15 # Merlin 2015-03-02 16:05
kalpal 2015-03-02 12:24

Hahahaha… (wiping away tears of laughter.) You and Dennis are great! Love your posts man. You really got a handle on all this Zionist stuff. Stand up! Stand up comedy! That is the ticket! Go for it man. Try out at the Comedy Store!
 
 
+26 # madams12 2015-03-02 14:38
This is one of the oft repeated MYTHS.....Sharo n pulled the 8500 illegal settlers from the center of Gaza Strip (which Americans paid to live there, and then paid again to relocate them) but that gesture did NOT end the brutal Occupation of the people of Gaza who live in the largest open air prison in the world. 1.7 Million with no freedom of movement confined to 6 x 22 miles of land without potable water, without a power plant, without fuel....UNLESS Israel 'allows' water, power, fuel. All movement, all business, everything is monitored, controlled or permitted by Israel - Is that your idea of ending occupation? Intermittent blitzkriegs since then...killing of thousands and maiming of tens of thousands....to say nothing of the military operations that took place BEFORE their so called "withdrawal". Despite the WALLS, GATES, and constant drones overhead and gun boats off the coast that fire against any fishing boats that "dare" go beyond 3 nautical miles of THEIR coastal waters...shooti ng to kill or destroy little boats. There is too much actual information MISSING in yr statement. Hasbro is no substitute for actual understanding and knownledge.
 
 
+11 # Terry Allen 2015-03-03 10:21
So true Madams12...it's amazing how these myths become fact when spewed for years. And so incidious....re minds one of another hated propagandist from 60 to 70 years ago doesn't it.
"Never again!" Isn't that the mantra? Well it is happening again....what's the difference between the Gaza Strip and the Warsaw ghetto? Not much so stuff that, Zionit's shills.....if you had hearts or souls you would seek out the knowledge for yourselves to find out the truth.....but obviously you don't care about the truth. You shills are like the Christian fundis who openly support Israel and push making Jerusalem the capital because they know it will set the region on fire...."Armage ddon" and then Jesus will return and then they all get to move into mansions without mortgages. .....selfish and disgusting.
Let's not mention how our military in collusion with the drug lords of Afghanistan against the Talaban guard the poppy fields.....hero ine production is up by 600% since we occupied that country. Europe and Russia are being flooded with cheap heroine. .....reminds one of the British and the opium wars against China. .....when will this crap end?????
My hope is that more and more of us will learn the truth of this new world odor and finally end it.
 
 
+12 # Ken Halt 2015-03-03 01:16
Lee: "Israel voluntarily withdrew from Gaza..." By starting your comment with this absurd claim you lose all credibility. By the standards of int'l law Israel has not withdrawn from Gaza: with the help of US pressure on Egypt it controls all borders, airspace, and coastal waters of Gaza, limiting the economy and even the caloric intake of the populace. It even claims rights to the offshore oil and gas deposits. It controls the distribution of tax money and limits the amount of humanitarian aid and reconstruction efforts after Israel's periodic and barbaric "lawn mowing". The blatant contortions of logic that apologists for Israel engage in might be amusing if they didn't involve such vital issues as ethnic cleansing and the military theft of land from Israel's neighbors. To hold Israel to the standards of int'l law and Geneva Conventions, to which it agreed to abide when it joined the UN, is neither anti-Jewish nor anti-Israel.
 
 
+9 # Merlin 2015-03-03 07:00
Ken Halt

FYI: Lee is a corporatist shill, now showing her Zionist side. There is no reasoning with her nor discussing anything with her. She, with just about every post, throws ignorant and baseless claims out there and goes to bed.

If you want a good picture of her MO, just reference reiverpacific's answers to her. He, just like you have done here, exposes the fraud she is, again and again.
 
 
+7 # Ken Halt 2015-03-03 10:19
Merlin: Thanks for the "heads up" but I actually know that, having read her garbage on these threads for many, many years. She's just such a big and easy target that I can't refrain at times for pointing out her unrelenting ideological bias, immune from fact and rich in twisted logic.
 
 
+7 # Pikewich 2015-03-03 18:07
"to rain devastation down on civilian populations."

You must mean 3 dead Israeli's and over 2000 dead Palestinians. The "devastation" is in Gaza, not Israel.
 
 
-26 # Relax57 2015-03-02 12:54
All this anti-Israel vitriol, calling for it's destruction and questioning it's right to exist, is never going to bring about peace in the region or a Palestinian State. Israel exists for 65+ years now and is not going anywhere. It also holds most of the "cards" right now.

If the Palestinians want a state, they are going to have to accept what Israel will give them, at this point. And, they are also going to have to stop attacking Israel and Israelis. Otherwise, if Israel continues to feel threatened, it will not give up one inch of land. You can scream at me for saying this but that is the reality.

All these rallies against Israel and the BDS movement are not going to work. The reality for Israel is, as soon as they let down their guard, they will be attacked from the occupied territories. That's why they took that land in 1967 and why they cannot realistically give it all up.

From 1949 to 1967, there were no Israelis in the West Bank or Gaza. The Palestinians had their chance for a state and peaceful coexistence then. But instead, they attacked Israel. After being attacked for years, why would Israel ever trust them?

I agree with other comments that the Left's anti-Israel movement is not helping and is only prolonging the problem. The Palestinians need to accept that they need to make compromises. Calling for Israel's destruction and isolating them through boycotts is not going to make Israel move one inch.
 
 
+10 # Merlin 2015-03-02 16:14
Relax57 2015-03-02 12:54

Hahahaha…Stop it man.… Hahahaha… My sides are aching from laughter. You guys, you know… Dennis and kalpal… should watch some Three Stooges comedy! 'Course the only similarity between you guys and them would be there are three of you. But hey, don't let that stop you. Maybe Brux could be your manager and set up a few dates in Gaza. You know, just to "get your feet wet."

Hey, and thanks again for the laughs.

Gotta run, now
 
 
-9 # Relax57 2015-03-03 07:06
Thanks Merlin! That's a real intelligent response! "HaHaHa"... sounds like a reply from FOX & Friends. Mocking with no real reply to what I actually wrote. Keep up the good work!
 
 
+13 # lfeuille 2015-03-02 17:39
"All this anti-Israel vitriol, calling for it's destruction and questioning it's right to exist, is never going to bring about peace in the region or a Palestinian State. Israel exists for 65+ years now and is not going anywhere. It also holds most of the "cards" right now."


Did you actually read any of the posts here? No one is calling for Israel's destruction. It'd be just fine if it was content to live within it's legal borders.

65+ years is a blink of an eye in historical terms. And Israel does not continue to exist under its own power. What we are tying to do is get the US, its main patron to pull the plug unless it honors all UN resolutions and international law. It's slow, but we are making progress. Sooner or later the tide will turn and Israel will have to stop the aggression and return to its original borders or cease to exist.
 
 
-7 # Relax57 2015-03-03 08:01
Yea, I did read the posts here. No one is calling for Israel's destruction on this forum? So what did this guy mean?

"What a dirty little operation Israel was and is....The more one learns of Zionism and how Israel was formed, the real goal in it's formation and the lying propaganda about it being a Jewish state, I am beginning to ask, does Israel in it's present form really have a right to exist? Pull the UN charter....dism antle the whole mess"

Israel is not going to "go away" voluntarily and the UN is never going to "dismantle" it, when 50% of the world's other countries have been created after Israel.
 
 
+4 # Terry Allen 2015-03-03 10:25
Oh please...really ? The shallow thinking of you guys.....I could watch fox news for one hour and sound just like you.
 
 
+20 # reiverpacific 2015-03-02 12:55
Boy, there's nothing like this horrible situation, faults on both sides but a total imbalance of weaponry, as a subject to get the hate-glands phuttin', name-calling, finger-pointing and God (Allah)-botheri ng faux-rationalis ts jumping into the arena of war from a safe distance, howling like Banshees with a bad toothache!
I've lived all over the world but not in this region (although I've been offered lucrative jobs in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia and Baghdad during the Iran-Iraq war) and would never presume to be an authority on this conflict but I try to glean my information from responsible, reliable, mostly non-commercial sources including the daily commentary from Radio Palestine based in Jerusalem, the BBC, The Guardian and so on -but NONE of the US owner-media, which is all I can do before carefully expressing an opinion.
I am convinced though, that Bibi NuttyYahoo is a genocide-bent Warmonger with his sights set on Iran, so he'll get a lot of mileage from this Congress.
O' aye -hands up any of those "Experts" posting here on either side who have actually been to Israel/Palestine?
Just askin'!
 
 
-23 # Relax57 2015-03-02 13:14
Where is all this genocide? The Palestinians were about 700,000 people in 1949. Now they number 6+ million, because they were encouraged by their leaders to multiply. That's some genocide! And if being pushed out of the current Israel is the "genocide", what about the 800,000 Jews pushed out of middle eastern countries in the 40s and 50s, like Iran? These people now reside in Israel. Where is their "compensation" from the Arab world? Are they allowed to return now to those middle eastern countries and get their homes and property back? Somehow I doubt it.

And as for who the "warmonger" is: It's Iran who is threatening Israel with destruction on a weekly basis, not the other way around. Israel has only ever threatened to destroy Iran's nuclear program, not the whole country. Maybe if Iran didn't threaten Israel constantly and finance terrorist operations against it (via HAMAS and Hezbollah), Israel would not feel compelled to speak out against it?
 
 
+18 # reiverpacific 2015-03-02 13:30
Quoting Relax57:
Where is all this genocide? The Palestinians were about 700,000 people in 1949. Now they number 6+ million, because they were encouraged by their leaders to multiply. That's some genocide! And if being pushed out of the current Israel is the "genocide", what about the 800,000 Jews pushed out of middle eastern countries in the 40s and 50s, like Iran? These people now reside in Israel. Where is their "compensation" from the Arab world? Are they allowed to return now to those middle eastern countries and get their homes and property back? Somehow I doubt it.

And as for who the "warmonger" is: It's Iran who is threatening Israel with destruction on a weekly basis, not the other way around. Israel has only ever threatened to destroy Iran's nuclear program, not the whole country. Maybe if Iran didn't threaten Israel constantly and finance terrorist operations against it (via HAMAS and Hezbollah), Israel would not feel compelled to speak out against it?

It's not Iran which crossed its borders and murdered several Scientists, MOSSAD it was, or bombed outside of its own airspace
Iran's PERCEIVED threat to Israel is merely strategic, whilst LIKUD's constant drumbeats to war are real and daily, widely disseminated by the US owner-media. http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Labor-MK-Shai-mocks-Israeli-threat-to-Iran-382635
Note the source -Jerusalem Post.
 
 
-12 # Relax57 2015-03-03 07:09
So because Israel took out a few people over it's border, it gives Iran a pass for financing terrorist activities by Hamas and Hezbollah for these last few DECADES?
 
 
+7 # Merlin 2015-03-02 14:33
Relax57 2015-03-02 13:14

Wow you sound just like Brux. He was such a crappy Zionist shill. You wouldn’t be him under a new name, would you? All you Zionist shills sound so much alike it’s really funny.

This post of yours is a disaster. You have no idea what you are talking about. You just throw a lot of horsepucky on the wall to see how much of it sticks. I got big news for ya; reiver just got the hose and washed all off.

Hey, but listen Zionist shill, stay “relaxed” keep posting here. We sometimes get so serious, the humor you provide really helps to lighten the aura around here.
 
 
-10 # Relax57 2015-03-03 07:19
More personal abuse and emotion towards me but nothing in the way of a substantive reply to my actual points. I guess you consider yourself an "intellectual"?

And hero Reiver also did not respond to my actual points - he mentions Israel defending itself against Iran but completely ignored the my point that Iran has been financing terrorist activities against Israel, via Hamas and Hezbollah, for decades. How Iran comes out as morally superior to Israel, in anyone's eyes, is fricking amazing.
 
 
+7 # Pikewich 2015-03-03 18:36
2012 Gaza War:" was an eight-day Israel Defense Forces (IDF) operation in the Hamas-governed Gaza Strip, which began on 14 November 2012 with the killing of Ahmed Jabari, chief of the Gaza military wing of Hamas....133 Palestinians had been killed in the conflict: 79 militants, 53 civilians, and a policeman.[39] They estimated that 840 Palestinians were wounded"(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Pillar_of_Defense)

2014 Gaza war: Where the term "mowing the lawn" was revealed: "Between 2,140[27] and 2,310[25] Gazans were killed (including 513 children)[34][5 6] and between 10,626[25] and 10,895[29] and were wounded. 66 Israeli soldiers, 5 Israeli civilians (including one child)[57] and one Thai civilian were killed[21] and 469 IDF soldiers and 261 Israeli civilians were injured" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Israel%E2%80%93Gaza_conflict)

You probably do not think much of Noam Chomsky, but he has clearly stated the policies of Israel towards Palestine is one of genocide. He is not alone. If you bother to read the history of the area written by a non Israeli apologist, you find the history of Israel is similar toe the US, and it's original indigenous population problem. And we know how that was handled.
This is one talk that comes up easy "https://www.yo utube.com/watch ?v=a9GNO8d50jc"
 
 
+6 # Pikewich 2015-03-03 18:35
"Where is the genocide?"
A little history, just a few of the events that come to mind:

Al Nakba (The catastrophy)
"During the 1948 Palestine War, an estimated 700,000 Palestinians fled or were expelled, and hundreds of Palestinian towns and villages were depopulated and destroyed."(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba_Day)

2008 Gaza war: "On 27 December 2008,[81] Israeli F-16 fighters launched a series of air strikes against targets in Gaza following the breakdown of a temporary truce between Israel and Hamas....A total of 1,100-1,400[88] Palestinians (295-926 civilians) and 13 Israelis were killed in the 22-day war." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip)
--continued;
 
 
+2 # Pikewich 2015-03-03 18:37
2012 Gaza War:" was an eight-day Israel Defense Forces (IDF) operation in the Hamas-governed Gaza Strip, which began on 14 November 2012 with the killing of Ahmed Jabari, chief of the Gaza military wing of Hamas....133 Palestinians had been killed in the conflict: 79 militants, 53 civilians, and a policeman.[39] They estimated that 840 Palestinians were wounded"(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Pillar_of_Defense)

2014 Gaza war: Where the term "mowing the lawn" was revealed: "Between 2,140[27] and 2,310[25] Gazans were killed (including 513 children)[34][5 6] and between 10,626[25] and 10,895[29] and were wounded. 66 Israeli soldiers, 5 Israeli civilians (including one child)[57] and one Thai civilian were killed[21] and 469 IDF soldiers and 261 Israeli civilians were injured" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Israel%E2%80%93Gaza_conflict)

You probably do not think much of Noam Chomsky, but he has clearly stated the policies of Israel towards Palestine is one of genocide. He is not alone. If you bother to read the history of the area written by a non Israeli apologist, you find the history of Israel is similar toe the US, and it's original indigenous population problem. And we know how that was handled.
This is one talk that comes up easy "https://www.yo utube.com/watch ?v=a9GNO8d50jc"
 
 
-5 # Relax57 2015-03-03 22:34
There wouldn't have been ANY deaths caused by Israel in Gaza, if they didn't fire 10,000+ rockets into Israel during the previous ten years. Israel didn't go in there and attack for "fun".

And as I stated earlier, the Palestinian population today is almost 10 times larger than it was when Israel was created in 1949. That's a funny kind of genocide. Maybe especially hard for Jews to understand since their population DROPPED by 6 million in WW II (but I know, that doesn't count).

Yes, more Palestinians die than Israelis in these wars. That's what happens when you fight a stronger adversary. But the Palestinians didn't need to fire rockets from playgrounds and schools where their kids were, putting them in danger.

And are you saying the Palestinians wouldn't kill Israelis at the same or faster rate, if they had the opportunity and arms to do so? When they say "DEATH to Israel" and "We will DRIVE THEM INTO THE SEA", it sorta sounds like they might just kill LOTS of Israelis, if they could.
 
 
+1 # Pikewich 2015-03-04 15:40
You can count the many rockets as the cause of these wars, or you can count the continued assassination and incarceration of Palestinians as the cause, back to 1948. It is a matter of perspective.

But there is one thing that continues to stick out like a very sore thumb.

What to you think of the term the Israeli government uses with these wars that seem occur every 2 years or so called "Mowing the Lawn"?
 
 
+20 # Terry Allen 2015-03-02 13:59
Wow, I must say I'm not surprised at the ignorance of everyone in the understanding of that region, the history of that region, the knowledge of the facts in that area,....this is not an emotional issue, whether you like or don't like Jews....whether you like or don't like Muslims. It is about why Israel is there politically and what it is doing in the region, the role of the British in the French in the past and the US presently in the region, and the fact that there is of course oil in the region....so please someone read a book!!!!
 
 
+12 # madams12 2015-03-02 14:29
to Reiverpacific.. .I've been there on extended visits several time over the past 30 yrs......but there is no substitute for study/readings
....thus: highly recommend anything by Ilan Pappe, also recommended is 50 yr Brit journalist David Hirst who lived thru and in the Levant most of those years, considered the DEAN of M/E history wrote one of the finest historical compendiums about Palestine/Israe l called "Gun and Olive Branch: roots of violence in the M/E"....followe d by : Beware Small States". Well cited and researched, which is why "Gun" was republished repeatedly over 35 years. READ!!
 
 
+10 # reiverpacific 2015-03-02 14:57
Quoting madams12:
to Reiverpacific...I've been there on extended visits several time over the past 30 yrs......but there is no substitute for study/readings
....thus: highly recommend anything by Ilan Pappe, also recommended is 50 yr Brit journalist David Hirst who lived thru and in the Levant most of those years, considered the DEAN of M/E history wrote one of the finest historical compendiums about Palestine/Israel called "Gun and Olive Branch: roots of violence in the M/E"....followed by : Beware Small States". Well cited and researched, which is why "Gun" was republished repeatedly over 35 years. READ!!

Thank you -will do.
 
 
0 # Terry Allen 2015-03-02 14:14
Sorry...most of you.
 
 
-16 # rrosen1 2015-03-02 16:47
I believe this to be true.
If Palestine were to lay down their guns tomorrow, there would be no war. If Israel were to lay down theirs, there would be no Israel - Benjamin Netanyahu
 
 
0 # Brice 2015-09-20 23:50
Truest comment here.
 
 
+9 # reiverpacific 2015-03-02 20:20
Quoting rrosen1:
I believe this to be true.
If Palestine were to lay down their guns tomorrow, there would be no war. If Israel were to lay down theirs, there would be no Israel - Benjamin Netanyahu


So you bought the Nutty-Yahoo's deranged, warmongering shit and swallowed it hook, line and stinker. You must be lickin' y'r chops!
If Israel were to lay down their guns -they've still got state of the art fighter-bombers , a Navy that limits and at times denies Palestinian access to fishing ground, an army with tanks and armored personnel carriers -just for a start and a fleet of bulldozers (thank you Caterpillar) to demolish Palestinian homes on a whim, plow under Millennia old Olive Groves and murder any supporter of Palestine who stands in their way -like Rachel Corrie!
I'll bet you believed Dimwits of the Shrubbery's "Compassionate Conservatism" faux-palliative too.
 
 
-9 # Relax57 2015-03-03 07:33
Yes, if Israel withdraws back to it's pre-1967 borders, it can defend itself. But there will be a war immediately, from the West Bank and Gaza. The Palestinians will start the fight and Israel will respond. Then there will be all these poor Palestinians getting killed, on TV, holding their dead children, asking "Why? Why did this happen?".

The idea that the Palestinians will live peacefully next to Israel is a complete fantasy. Poll after poll shows the majority wants the complete destruction of Israel, and so does Hamas officially.

I'm not saying Israel and the Palestinians should not work towards a solution. I am just saying the reality does not lend itself towards an easy solution. All this talk of "if they just go back to the pre-1967 borders" is a great idea in concept but it won't work. But calling for Israel to go away voluntarily isn't realistic either.

Now, I can't wait for those nice abusive and rude responses !!! Whenever I see a reply start with "HaHaHa...", I just know there's going to be some real intelligent comments coming!
 
 
+4 # reiverpacific 2015-03-03 10:20
Quoting Relax57:
Yes, if Israel withdraws back to it's pre-1967 borders, it can defend itself. But there will be a war immediately, from the West Bank and Gaza. The Palestinians will start the fight and Israel will respond. Then there will be all these poor Palestinians getting killed, on TV, holding their dead children, asking "Why? Why did this happen?".

The idea that the Palestinians will live peacefully next to Israel is a complete fantasy. Poll after poll shows the majority wants the complete destruction of Israel, and so does Hamas officially.

I'm not saying Israel and the Palestinians should not work towards a solution. I am just saying the reality does not lend itself towards an easy solution. All this talk of "if they just go back to the pre-1967 borders" is a great idea in concept but it won't work. But calling for Israel to go away voluntarily isn't realistic either.

Now, I can't wait for those nice abusive and rude responses !!! Whenever I see a reply start with "HaHaHa...", I just know there's going to be some real intelligent comments coming!

OK, how 'bout "Sigh"?
Every time I get a slightly balanced discussion going with a pro-LIKUD (note the difference between that and Pro-Israel, which is NOT not Anti-Israel) I get a blinkered, almost deranged and abusive response. Indeed, RSN has had to delete several such responses from a certain familiar fanatical poster.
Why are y'all so hostile and angry to reason in the face of all evidence?
 
 
+5 # Ken Halt 2015-03-03 10:23
If you ever posted something intelligent yourself you might have cause to complain about the short shrift given your stale regurgitations. Palestinians of all religions lived peacefully together before the Balfour declaration and the large influx of Jews during the mandate period. The British officer in charge of the mandate was Jewish, BTW. Early on it became clear to the largely Arab population that they were in danger of becoming disenfranchised in their own land, this caused friction, animosity and violence on both sides. The idea of creating a Euro-Asian colony in Palestine was never a good idea and the whole world is reaping the whirlwind. Pray tell us why going back to the '67 borders "...won't work".
 
 
-4 # Relax57 2015-03-03 17:02
"Pray tell us why going back to the '67 borders "...won't work"."

It did not work in the past. From 1949 to 1967, there was no Israeli presence in the West Bank and Gaza (and Golan Heights). During that time, there was no movement towards creating an independent state by the Palestinians. Instead, Israel was attacked repeatedly from the West Bank. Also, the Palestinians threw out all Jews living there, burned all synagogues, uprooted ancient Jewish cemeteries, and refused to allow Jews to even pray at Judaism's most holy site in Jerusalem.

In 2001 US President Bill Clinton proposed a Palestinian state in 94% to 96% of The West Bank and all of Gaza. This would have effectively been a return to 1967 borders. The former Israeli Minister of Foreign Affairs Shlomo Ben-Ami, PhD said “the proposal was difficult for us [Israel] to accept. No one came out dancing and singing, and [Prime Minister] Ehud [Barak] especially was perturbed.” Reluctant to give so much land away, but desperate for peace, the Israeli cabinet decided to accept the Clinton Parameters. The Palestinian leadership rejected it.

Finally, in 2008 Ehud Olmert offered Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas a peace agreement that would have guaranteed a Palestinian state in virtually all the West Bank, Gaza, and part of Jerusalem. Once again, the Palestinians turned down the offer.
 
 
+2 # Ken Halt 2015-03-04 01:58
This is not substance, it is blinkered reality at best, much of it outright misdirection and untruth. Your claims about the peace deal brokered by Clinton (he was out of office in 2001, BTW, you can't even get the date right!) is absolutely false, it was another one sided deal that would have given Palestinians very little and in no way satisfied the requirements of int'l law. That Israelis may have found it difficult to tender says nothing about it's generosity. There has never been an offer by Israel that satisfied the requirements of Geneva conventions concerning the occupied territories. If actions speak louder than words israel is not, as you claim, "...desperate for peace...", it wants the land and resources of it neighbors more than it wants peace.
 
 
-2 # Relax57 2015-03-04 13:01
Sorry about my "blinkered" reality. My point was, Israel made offers to give the Palestinians something - and every time the Palestinians refuse, they get offered less, not more. So, given the current environment of mistrust, what makes you think there will realistically ever be a better offer from Israel? Have all these anti-Israel protests and BDS movements gotten anywhere? They make you and all the Lefties "feel good" but produce nothing substantial, except for further alienating Israel and making them elect more Right-wing governments. What's going to change, so we're not at the same stand-off 50 years from now? Are the wimpy European governments or the UN going to really do something except whine? Is the U.S. going to suddenly drop support of Israel?

My point is, the Palestinians should take what they can get. They might get a better deal later, if they can demonstrate a willingness to live in peace with Israel. If not, continued aggression will just keep up the status quo. That's reality. Dreaming that Israel will be magically "broken up" or the Israelis will voluntarily give up land (and put themselves at risk for attack), is pure fantasy! The only way Israel will give up an inch of land is when they feel safe to do so.

And if the real welfare of the Palestinians is considered, they might be better off having the West Bank and Gaza go back to Jordan and Egypt, and be part of larger, more viable countries (than the corrupt Hamas and Fatah governments)
 
 
0 # Relax57 2015-03-04 13:10
p.s. The Clinton Peace Plan was finalized at the end of Clinton's term. The Palestinians rejected it in 2001.
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/01/03/world/palestinians-outline-objections-to-clinton-peace-plan.html
 
 
+9 # geraldom 2015-03-02 21:35
As long as the United States continues to be Israel's personal protector from Israel's enemies and most especially from any negative actions by the United Nations, Israel can get away with most anything it wants to get away with, murder, genocide, and the stealing of more and more Palestinian land in both East Jerusalem and the West Bank, whatever Israel wants and absolutely no one can stop them.

It’s too bad that Russia doesn’t protect east Ukraine, Iran and Syria with the same passion and in the very same way the United States protects Israel. Perhaps 6000 innocent people wouldn’t be dead right now in eastern Ukraine at the hands of the Kiev government, and perhaps the cities and the towns of eastern Ukraine wouldn’t look like rubble.

The Palestinian Authority has been wasting its whole time all these many years negotiating some nebulous peace deal with Israel using and trusting the United States as being the mediator.
 
 
+6 # reiverpacific 2015-03-03 10:32
Quoting Relax57:
More personal abuse and emotion towards me but nothing in the way of a substantive reply to my actual points. I guess you consider yourself an "intellectual"?

And hero Reiver also did not respond to my actual points - he mentions Israel defending itself against Iran but completely ignored the my point that Iran has been financing terrorist activities against Israel, via Hamas and Hezbollah, for decades. How Iran comes out as morally superior to Israel, in anyone's eyes, is fricking amazing.


You have not offered any substantiation or backup on your claims so your credibility is pretty shaky.
Now go away and scramble through Google or another search engine for some such factual reference; at least that'll elevate you a little above that speculatively false posts of Lee Nason.
Before you start, I've had a look at much of the available "Evidence" and it's also speculative and overwhelmingly generated by conservative, US-based -much of it status-quo federal "Understanding" so that carries no weight as the US is the biggest terrorist rogue state in the world and the overwhelmingly most heavily armed nation at the expense of its citizens and resident's security and basic human rights like Universal Healthcare (Which Israel at least does provide).
"Terrorist" is the new "Red under the Bed" fear tactic and wielded like a medieval mace to keep the populace looking over their shoulders and "Trusting" their alleged leaders.
 
 
-6 # Relax57 2015-03-03 16:02
"You have not offered any substantiation or backup on your claims so your credibility is pretty shaky."

So which of my claims require substantiation? Can you give me something specific, amongst the points I raised, to respond to? You are also saying all kinds of things about me personally, that you have no substantiation about. I happen to be a registered Democrat who voted for Obama twice and I fully support universal health care. But I just don't happen to buy all the extreme Left's "bleeding heart" whining.
 
 
+8 # reiverpacific 2015-03-03 10:41
Quoting Relax57:
So because Israel took out a few people over it's border, it gives Iran a pass for financing terrorist activities by Hamas and Hezbollah for these last few DECADES?


Like most blinkered reactionaries, you're quite willing to excuse all travesties as long as they are committed by "Your" favored objects or nations, much as Saddam Hussein was courted, armed and financed by Bush 1, Rumsfeld and the neocons as long as he was "Our bad guy".
Or the replacement of democratically elected Mohammed Mossadegu with Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi and his SAVAK murder apparatus in Iran, with the subsequent domino effect in a nation that could have and could yet, be a valuable ally.
Or the usurpation and destruction of so many other nations, especially in C. and S. that tried to achieve democratic self-sufficienc y in favor of Death-squad enforced Oligarchs.
And now LIKUD.
That's what I mean by blinkered and selectively indignant.
 
 
-5 # Relax57 2015-03-03 15:55
Still haven't answered my question. Why does Iran get a "pass" for financing terrorist activities by Hamas and Hezbollah for these last few DECADES?
 
 
0 # reiverpacific 2015-03-04 16:10
Quoting Relax57:
Still haven't answered my question. Why does Iran get a "pass" for financing terrorist activities by Hamas and Hezbollah for these last few DECADES?


You still haven't answered my requests for substantiation.
But what the Hell; I don't have the patience to carry on an obviously fruitless discussion with somebody who can't see the evidence for looking through the wrong end of the telescope.
Try to catch radio "Palestine today" -and I posted some credible facts from an unimpeachable source en ré, http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Labor-MK-Shai-mocks-Israeli-threat-to-Iran-382635
Note the source -Jerusalem Post.
Finally, note "madams12's" answers to a request for a response from anybody who has actually been to Palestine, provided from personal experience and many trips to the area; if that wasn't good enough for you it is indeed hopeless -have YOU been over there?
I'm done with you; I know when I'm banging' my nut against solid concrete.
Now rave and rant on as long as you like -you'll get n'more from me.
Ta-ra and out.
 
 
0 # Merlin 2015-03-04 18:37
reiver
I'm done with you; I know when I'm banging' my nut against solid concrete.
Now rave and rant on as long as you like -you'll get n'more from me.
Ta-ra and out.

Well, good. Why not join me in the fun I'm having dragging these fools through their own created "mud." Your creativity would be a welcome source of merriment.

I personally believe that if everyone would treat them with non sense, they would simply go away. As long as they can provoke people into trying to converse with them they feel smug.
 
 
0 # reiverpacific 2015-03-04 20:44
Quoting Merlin:
reiver
I'm done with you; I know when I'm banging' my nut against solid concrete.
Now rave and rant on as long as you like -you'll get n'more from me.
Ta-ra and out.

Well, good. Why not join me in the fun I'm having dragging these fools through their own created "mud." Your creativity would be a welcome source of merriment.

I personally believe that if everyone would treat them with non sense, they would simply go away. As long as they can provoke people into trying to converse with them they feel smug.

That's why I know when to quit.
Mind you a bit o' humor usually baffles them, especially those who consider the Flintstones to be a documentary and Nutty-yahoo to be a "Man of Peace".
"Muck or nettles", as they say in Yorkshire.
 
 
+1 # Relax57 2015-03-05 10:13
Well... BOO-HOO !!! I stand defeated and alone, struck down by superior intellect, coming from those who know... THE TRUTH.

And do be careful about banging your "nut" against concrete...
 

THE NEW STREAMLINED RSN LOGIN PROCESS: Register once, then login and you are ready to comment. All you need is a Username and a Password of your choosing and you are free to comment whenever you like! Welcome to the Reader Supported News community.

RSNRSN