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Chomsky writes: "The reaction of horror and revulsion about the crime is justified, as is the search for deeper roots, as long as we keep some principles firmly in mind. The reaction should be completely independent of what thinks about this journal and what it produces. "

Prof. Noam Chomsky, linguist, philosopher, cognitive scientist and activist. (photo: Va Shiva)
Prof. Noam Chomsky, linguist, philosopher, cognitive scientist and activist. (photo: Va Shiva)


Charlie Hebdo Massacre Is One of Many Assaults on Free Expression

By Noam Chomsky, Znet

12 January 15

 

he world reacted with horror to the murderous attack on the French satirical journal Charlie Hebdo. In the New York Times, veteran Europe correspondent Steven Erlanger graphically described the immediate aftermath, what many call France’s 9/11, as “a day of sirens, helicopters in the air, frantic news bulletins; of police cordons and anxious crowds; of young children led away from schools to safety. It was a day, like the previous two, of blood and horror in and around Paris.” The enormous outcry worldwide was accompanied by reflection about the deeper roots of the atrocity. “Many Perceive a Clash of Civilizations,” a New York Times headline read.

The reaction of horror and revulsion about the crime is justified, as is the search for deeper roots, as long as we keep some principles firmly in mind. The reaction should be completely independent of what one thinks about this journal and what it produces. The passionate and ubiquitous chants “I am Charlie,” and the like, should not be meant to indicate, even hint at, any association with the journal, at least in the context of defense of freedom of speech. Rather, they should express defense of the right of free expression whatever one thinks of the contents, even if they are regarded as hateful and depraved.

And the chants should also express condemnation for violence and terror. The head of Israel’s Labor Party and the main challenger for the upcoming elections in Israel, Isaac Herzog, is quite right when he says that “Terrorism is terrorism. There’s no two ways about it.” He is also right to say that “All the nations that seek peace and freedom [face] an enormous challenge” from murderous terrorism – putting aside his predictably selective interpretation of the challenge.

Erlanger vividly describes the scene of horror. He quotes one surviving journalist as saying that “Everything crashed. There was no way out. There was smoke everywhere. It was terrible. People were screaming. It was like a nightmare.” Another surviving journalist reported a “huge detonation, and everything went completely dark.” The scene, Erlanger reported, “was an increasingly familiar one of smashed glass, broken walls, twisted timbers, scorched paint and emotional devastation.” At least 10 people were reported at once to have died in the explosion, with 20 missing, “presumably buried in the rubble.”

These quotes, as the indefatigable David Peterson reminds us, are not, however, from January 2015. Rather, they are from a story of Erlanger’s on April 24 1999, which made it only to page 6 of the New York Times, not reaching the significance of the Charlie Hebdo attack. Erlanger was reporting on the NATO (meaning US) “missile attack on Serbian state television headquarters” that “knocked Radio Television Serbia off the air.”

There was an official justification. “NATO and American officials defended the attack,” Erlanger reports, “as an effort to undermine the regime of President Slobodan Milosevic of Yugoslavia.” Pentagon spokesman Kenneth Bacon told a briefing in Washington that “Serb TV is as much a part of Milosevic’s murder machine as his military is,” hence a legitimate target of attack.

The Yugoslavian government said that “The entire nation is with our President, Slobodan Milosevic,” Erlanger reports, adding that “How the Government knows that with such precision was not clear.”

No such sardonic comments are in order when we read that France mourns the dead and the world is outraged by the atrocity. There need also be no inquiry into the deeper roots, no profound questions about who stands for civilization, and who for barbarism.

Isaac Herzog, then, is mistaken when he says that “Terrorism is terrorism. There’s no two ways about it.” There are quite definitely two ways about it: terrorism is not terrorism when a much more severe terrorist attack is carried out by those who are Righteous by virtue of their power. Similarly, there is no assault against freedom of speech when the Righteous destroy a TV channel supportive of a government that they are attacking.

By the same token, we can readily comprehend the comment in the New York Times of civil rights lawyer Floyd Abrams, noted for his forceful defense of freedom of expression, that the Charlie Hebdo attack is “the most threatening assault on journalism in living memory.” He is quite correct about “living memory,” which carefully assigns assaults on journalism and acts of terror to their proper categories: Theirs, which are horrendous; and Ours, which are virtuous and easily dismissed from living memory.

We might recall as well that this is only one of many assaults by the Righteous on free expression. To mention only one example that is easily erased from “living memory,” the assault on Falluja by US forces in November 2004, one of the worst crimes of the invasion of Iraq, opened with occupation of Falluja General Hospital. Military occupation of a hospital is, of course, a serious war crime in itself, even apart from the manner in which it was carried out, blandly reported in a front-page story in the New York Times, accompanied with a photograph depicting the crime. The story reported that “Patients and hospital employees were rushed out of rooms by armed soldiers and ordered to sit or lie on the floor while troops tied their hands behind their backs.” The crimes were reported as highly meritorious, and justified: “The offensive also shut down what officers said was a propaganda weapon for the militants: Falluja General Hospital, with its stream of reports of civilian casualties.”

Evidently such a propaganda agency cannot be permitted to spew forth its vulgar obscenities.


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Comments   

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+61 # ronnewmexico 2015-01-12 13:11
you go noam!!!!

Thanks for putting this in perspective and mentioning a few other things our media does noe….
 
 
+7 # Kwelinyingi 2015-01-13 13:28
Quoting ronnewmexico:
you go noam!!!!

Thanks for putting this in perspective and mentioning a few other things our media does noe….


An important detail is missing on this issue: when the magazine wanted to publish a cartoon on Jewish people, France banned that cartoon. So much for "freedom of expression".
 
 
+11 # RMDC 2015-01-13 13:46
Kwelingingi -- in most of Europe denigrating Jews or the Holocaust is illegal. In Germany, one cannot express Nazi views. These nations are right, I think. They know that vicious hate speech against certain minorities leads to actual violence against them. Or there is a two part process to genocide -- first comes the dehumanization and second comes the actual killing. Prench President Hollande could not be bombing Muslims in Africa and the Middle East if there were not people like Hebdo first dehumanizing them. "Freedom of Expression" does not include incitement to massacres. We don't accept it from Musulm groups like al Qaeda or ISIS and we should not accept it from Charlie Hebdo. Plenty of people are rightly calling ISIS barbaric for their words and actions. Now is the time to call Hebdo and Hollande barbaric for their words and actions.
 
 
+1 # Douglas Jack 2015-01-13 15:17
RMDC, RE: "So much for 'freedom of expression'." Kwelinyingi is right. Freedom of the Press & universal 'dialectic rights' ('both-sided') require that; when cartoons or articles are to be published with dehumanization, degradation, insult etc., then those so targeted must be given: 1) the equal opportunity to respond, 2) opportunity to demand debate with proponents.

It is better to flush-out those with violence in their hearts than to suppress, censor or deny them. Given the opportunity for dialogue then, falsely held suppositions & logics can be exposed publicly. We need to change the present dynamic wherein certain individuals own some 95% of western media attempting to manipulate public opinion for their endless wars. Dialectic Rights must be established in all media, business, institutions, education & government.

With RMDC's same basic misinterpretati on, propaganda was & is imposed on Europe following both WW1 & WW2. Such misinformation causes those from Allies countries not to know about their ongoing huge crimes & falsehoods, which they perpetuated & continue to perpetuate upon Europe. Jew, Muslim, Christian, others & atheists all continue to believe one-sided misinformation of their wealthy oligarchs.

Simple dialectic / dialogue / debate process gives humans clear alternative to violence, aggression, colonialism, war & war-making economy. https://sites.google.com/site/indigenecommunity/structure/both-sides-now-equal-time-recorded-dialogues
 
 
+1 # rhgreen 2015-01-15 15:43
Reply to RMDC - Canada also bans hate speech against an identified group. It is a difficult line to draw, for sure. But only the US allows pretty much anything to be said about any public figure or group, except for libel/slander laws which require that the person saying it is aware that it is false and that the intention is to do damage (both difficult to prove in a court). One can say pretty much anything about any public figure or group without worry. Of course Canada is famous for prioritizing politeness, consideration and tolerance, but most countries draw the line more restrictively than the US does.
 
 
+1 # brux 2015-01-15 23:28
Go Google images for "charlie hebdo antisemitic cartoon" and you will see there are plenty of them ... you people are like the 1000 Stooges ... I've always though three were enough.
 
 
+5 # ritawalpoleague 2015-01-13 16:18
Quoting ronnewmexico:
you go noam!!!!

Thanks for putting this in perspective and mentioning a few other things our media does noe….


And, I too wish to thank you, Prof. Noam. You are truly great !

You educate us and goose our brains into 'logical/critic al' thinking mode, which is soooo needed today in our EVERY CHILD LEFT BEHIND style of non-educating.
 
 
-43 # MidwesTom 2015-01-12 14:05
Apparently a German publication reprinted the cartoons this weekend, and was fire bombed as a result. Oh what a peaceful religion is Islam.
 
 
+63 # Anarchist 23 2015-01-12 14:45
Yeah...what a peaceful religion Christianity is...bombing clinics, killing doctors...justi fying wars in the name of their god...we of all religions must unite to stop the violence against each other.
 
 
-53 # brux 2015-01-12 15:08
How many multiples of violence is Islam that Christianity?
When was the last bombing of a clinic?
How many died?
How many Christians were anxious to take credit for it.
There is no comparison between Christianity and Islam in terms of violence.

That is like saying we do not need police because one police officer might beat his wife. Fire the guy and get a new one. The US and the West made mistakes just like everyone other culture in the world has. Now there is a global consensus of human rights and democracy in place. It's not perfect, but it is not anything the Islamic states support unless they can get some kind of twisted gain from it.

This brainwashing repetition that all forces, all countries, all religions and everything else is equal so the bad guys in this world can continue business as usual is wrong.
 
 
+40 # Farafalla 2015-01-12 15:47
This is the brux who says " I want to see the West sustain and evolve to be better, and Islam either reformed or destroyed.". Brux should read the history of Christianity. Crusades, Protestants v Catholics, the Inquisition, the exiling of the Jews from Spain, the forced and violent conversion of the Amerindian population, etc., etc.
 
 
+5 # ronnewmexico 2015-01-12 16:29
As a aside Agri…you may not know as few do..in New Mexico up until I think the 1960's…. did exist a number of jewish peoples but those who had retained the faith under cover. AS their heritage derived from a thing of Spain and the inquisition... they I assume in relation to that…. migrated to the new world from Spain.

They remained very very close and discrete never officially acknowledgeing their presence but were present nevertheless. Locals did observe some things such as when and what was celebrated as tip offs. Those days long gone they did nevertheless persist. And in rural communities were well known of. I assume they still do continue their celebrations in their discrete way, though there have been no inquisitions they retained here the memory of that great evil.

Other esoteric groups such as the penitenties, also survived and do to this day…I knew one personally not all that long ago. The catholic religion deviated a bit here in New Mexico as due to war with natives it was not so close to spain.

As you mention Jews and spain I though you may find that interesting. Though I doubt wikipedia has a article on it..it is fact. This historty of common peoples is little taught.
I know peaks where the penitenties still visit…I go to them myself for other purpose…they are also quite discrete in many ways.
 
 
+3 # Activista 2015-01-13 13:02
"As you mention Jews and spain I though you may find that interesting. Though I doubt wikipedia has a article on it..it is fact. This historty of common peoples is little taught....

History of the Jews in Spain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Spain
Wikipedia
Jump to Edict of Expulsion - Several months after the fall of Granada an Edict of Expulsion was issued against the Jews of Spain by Ferdinand and ...
 
 
0 # brux 2015-01-15 23:25
Yeah ... and how great Spain would be today if it had remained Muslim.
 
 
-9 # brux 2015-01-12 23:03
Kind changed that post a bit didn't you Agro ....

>> I wondered what the destroyed part looks like. Will brux be there to shove the ragheads into gas chambers?

Hey Agricanto , you don't have to wonder, it has nothing to do with mass extermination or gas chambers or even violence unless there is no other way ... funny how you never make any comments like that to the antisemites here.

If you only argument against me and my ideas and interpretation of history is for you to "imagine" the worst thing I could possibly say or do.

I've never used the term raghead either. You are slandering me and distorting beyond recognition what I am saying and what I mean ... you must be so proud or yourself.
 
 
-9 # brux 2015-01-13 00:39
Why are all of your arguments hundreds of years old Agricanto ? How would you like to be judged by your great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandparents?

These foolish comments and argument really seem to mean something for you.

There is nothing we can do about the past, and the present is not a repeat of the past, ESPECIALLY in the West.

The proof ought to be before your eyes every day.

For example a few years ago a discussion was started on same sex marriage, and after a few years the West is realizing there is no reason not to allow same sex couples to marry.

The Muslims are still killing them, stoning them are arguing among their miserable selves as to the best way Allah wants them to die.

And you blather on about the Crusades ... how can you live with yourself as such an backwards numbskull?
 
 
+6 # Douglas Jack 2015-01-13 13:59
Noam Chomsky, Thanks again for a brilliant piece of research & writing. You are only getting better & better at describing the truth-of-the-matter.

Brux, THIS IS NOW! Your MSMedia doesn't inform you about the intensity of the present western 'crusade' against Islam, socialism etc. Here's a statistical review of just Afghanistan by an Australian source which estimates deaths at 5.6 million US Afghanistan Invasion 10th Anniversary: 5.6 Million War-related Deaths By Dr Gideon Polya Countercurrents .org http://www.countercurrents.org/polya101011.htm Its a couple of years old but has good statistical breakdowns & sourcing including invasion, destabilization , drugs, excess death, premature deaths, infant-mortalit y etc. etc compared with if we are not actively creating our colonial hell there. Please multiply 5.6 million by Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Vietnam, Cambodia etc with similar western violence generation in Venezuela, Somalia, Syria, Yemen, Nigeria. Follow the money & the arms from the western Finance-Media-M ilitary-Industr ial-Legislative -Complex as major arms, munition, security providers, non-recycling polluters as well as mining & logging extractors.

Your pseudonym posts strike me as having the grim personality of a MIC corporate 'bot' under which multiple hired readers comment & thus fragmented aren't capable of registering learning/compas sion from the 100s of articles which you post on. https://sites.google.com/site/indigenecommunity/home/2-mutual-aid
 
 
0 # brux 2015-01-15 23:23
Sorry DJ, but I do think I know much more about it than you do, and I do not get my information from the MSM Kind of a condescending asshole to say that - and I get your did not think about it much either.

So often here I see people use their own assumptions about some other person's knowledge as an insult ... does it not occur to you that behaving like this is childish and immature ... not to mention stupid.

>> Your pseudonym posts

Huh? What are you talking about?

Go out in the street and bring someone back and ask them to read any of your posts DJ and they will all tell you they make little to no sense. I tired to be patient with you but it is clear you are about to lose your shit with all of this suppressed paranoia.

You are going to wear your poor brain out asking it to keep track of all this nutty stuff at once.
 
 
+41 # randi1randi1@yahoo.com 2015-01-12 16:07
Is not the West Christian? And does the West not bomb and invade Muslim countries? and kill Muslims? on a daily basis? by the score?
 
 
-19 # brux 2015-01-13 00:31
You have an interesting definition of invade. We took the troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Is not the Middle East Islamic? Then why do they kill more of their own people in these insane islamic sectarian wars? Why do they murder their own people for trying to have freedom or speech?

If the West is so awful how come they all want to come here to live, and the ruin it by turning it into the same cesspool of oppressive terrorism they have in their home countries?

The answer is, it's complicated Randi ... I think too complicated for you to understand -- just keep hating yourself and your country.
 
 
+3 # John Escher 2015-01-13 17:36
Quoting brux:
You have an interesting definition of invade. We took the troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Is not the Middle East Islamic? Then why do they kill more of their own people in these insane islamic sectarian wars? Why do they murder their own people for trying to have freedom or speech?

If the West is so awful how come they all want to come here to live, and the ruin it by turning it into the same cesspool of oppressive terrorism they have in their home countries?

The answer is, it's complicated Randi ... I think too complicated for you to understand -- just keep hating yourself and your country.


"They all," brux? A pretty large "they," n'est-ce pas, brux? You are a labeller, brux, and as such are not worthy of being taken seriously by any other human being.

Is this broad brux of yours when it comes to Islam, brux, a sensible course of action on any level including that of effective security?

Does it make sense, brux, to alienate one billion 600 million Muslims, the second largest religious denomination in the world?

I guess you liked World Wars I and II so much, brux, that you crave a World War III. Am I wrong?
 
 
+34 # Salus Populi 2015-01-12 16:13
"How many multiples of violence is Islam that Christianity?"

Well, the "Christian" governments of the West, in particular that of the United States -- in which every presidential candidate invariably expresses his profound commitment to the love of Christ -- is responsible for around 25 to 30 *MILLION* unnecessary deaths since WWII. This is at least a couple, possibly three or four orders of maqnitude more than the pathetic retail violence carried out by the fundamentalist Muslims against the EuroAmerican powers.

"When was the last bombing of a clinic?"

Is bombing of clinics the only form of Christian violence that counts? In the last few years, a gay man was left to die of exposure in Nebraska by good Christians, and a black man dragged to death behind a truck by other good Christians.

"How many died?"

As Chomsky notes, in the terrorist war crime against Yugoslavia, well over ten people were killed. In the attack on Falluja, hundreds were killed, either blown up, shot or burned to death by banned white phosphorus. Around the time of that attack, one of the top commanders of the U.S. invaders publicly stated that "our God is bigger than their God."

"How many Christians were anxious to take credit for it." See the new Clint Eastwood sniper movie.

"There is no comparison between Christianity and Islam in terms of violence."

No, Islam has a long way to go to catch up.
 
 
-11 # brux 2015-01-12 23:11
You list a few bad individual crimes against massive terrorism on a global level since the Munich Olympics ... I just hope you are not someone's accountant.
 
 
+24 # Aon Duine 2015-01-12 16:23
You are right when you say, "This brainwashing repetition that all forces, all countries, all religions and everything else is equal so the bad guys in this world can continue business as usual is wrong."

But you have it backwards. The list of victims of Christianity throughout the ages dwarfs that of any other religion by at least two orders of magnitude, and it continues apace at a far higher death count by far. As I write this, Christian nations are killing literally millions of non-Christians, most of them with economic warfare, but many with brutal, overt violence all over the world. Other religions fade into insignificance next to the power of the Christian killing machine.

Ask the indigenous peoples of the Americas about the kindness of Christians. Ask the indigenous peoples of Africa about the kindness of Christians. And what of the people of Southeast Asia? What of the citizens of that ancient nation of India? What were their experiences with Christians? And the Middle East?

And was it Muslims who brought millions of black Africans to the Americas to be enslaved? Was it Muslims who came to the Americas for gold and destroyed a thousand native cultures, killing tens of millions in the process?

And both the Islamic State and al Qaeda are creations of Christian intervention, just as the most viciously brutal state in the Middle East (Suadi Arabia) and the genocidal and racist state of Israel are propped up by Christians.

Not equal at all. You're so right.
 
 
+4 # rakiba 2015-01-12 17:55
Hello Aon

I agree with your general point about Christianity hardly having a peaceful history and abhor the general Islamophobia of some commenters (often with the assumption that Christianity is inherently peaceful) but just some facts I think you may not be aware of:

Forst of all Christianity has been practiced in parts of Africa for longer than in much of Europe so what I think you meant was West Africa at the time of the slave trade. Even still, Christianity is practiced more literally in most of Africa now than in most of Europe so those indigenous people have chosen Christianity and to make it only the religion of the firmer masters is I think a mistake.

About Islamic history, in fact there were also millions of lives lost in its march to becoming a global religion especially in Africa, where a slave trade facing Asia and the ME which rivalled the horrific trade focused around the Atlantic. One of the princes on the short-list to become kind of KSA was born to a slave, literally a slave so the trade existed in the ME long after it was put down in the West by abolitionism, an explicitly Christian movement.

And you should also realise that most (not all) of the places in Asia that have large Muslim populations, including Pakistan, were animist, Buddhist and Hindu before hand. The process of them becoming Muslim did involve the slaughter of millions.

This is about human beings and how we treat one another, sometimes codified by religion.
 
 
-2 # ronnewmexico 2015-01-12 20:01
I don't know rakiba…the first outlawing of slavery was in France in the 1300's by a king who was known as anything but a christian character..him dying by a overinjestion of alcohole following a game of tennis. And the outlawing of the english form of that thing was at the initiation of the judiciary who by ruling determined it not found in english common law..This allowed the laws that followed some 50 or years later in some cases.

There was a christain componant to abolition and the quakers represented that clearly in america but slavery was firmly reinforced by other christian groups as well.
By conclusion is we cannot firmly put abolition on christain shoulders of accomplishment.
it was a joint affair.
 
 
-12 # brux 2015-01-12 23:18
Most of these posts are directed at me, who seems to be the only one to stand up for facts.

In return I get slandered, because I never said Christianity was inherently peaceful, though in these days the vast majority of Christians support peace as much as the vast majority of Muslims indirectly support terrorism.

There are well known reproducible polls that show that almost half of all Muslims will not fight themselves, but they believe it is just to kill people who insult Islam or Mohammed. That's just a fact, that you cannot point to Christianity and blame it for.

Islam has virtual slavery still in many countries. Talk to some of the Fillipinos on Saudi Arabia.

I can quote chapter and verse in history about Muslims capturing slaves and selling them, but history is not the issue and the only people who use history are the loser who support the Muslims and have nowhere else to go but to say Christians did the same thing hundreds of years ago so Islam can do it today.

How warped.

Then I post this and get thumbs down for it ... what kind of crazy people are there here ... it's hugely funny.
 
 
+4 # backwards_cinderella 2015-01-13 06:13
FACTS? No, you post OPINIONS. Get it straight.
 
 
+1 # Salus Populi 2015-01-27 12:01
I certainly don't dispute that the two other Abrahamic religions have done their share of killing, but pinning it all on Islam is a sign of bigotry. And one need not go back in history to find Christianity's victims.

Christianity is not the state religion of the United States, but it might as well be, given the overwhelming dominance of it in our public life. You don't find Muslims and Jews, or Hindus and Buddhists, demanding the right to put up the fetishes of their religion in courthouses, public squares and the like. You don't find non-Christian government-subs idized "help the needy" organizations.

Capitalism is quite comfortable with Protestant Christianity, and the two are in many ways Siamese twins, joined at birth. And it is capitalist Christianity that needs ever to expand and proselytize, to wipe out or supplant all indigenous or "different" cultures.

In my own lifetime, native children were beaten and punished for speaking their own language in Christian schools, in what under the international definition of genocide certainly qualifies.

Even now, with the richest resources located on Indian land, they remain the poorest and shortest-lived population.

Again, the 25 to 30 million victims of "our" way of life and dispensing death are just the modern ones, since the last world war. At the present rate, it will take IS -- which we have helped arm -- at least 75 years to accomplish the butchery and devastation we visited on Iraq in less than twenty.
 
 
0 # Aon Duine 2015-03-18 19:16
This might be the most intelligent and perceptive comment I have ever read on RSN, so of course it had no votes. Well, you get a +1 from me.
 
 
-11 # brux 2015-01-12 23:04
>> The list of victims of Christianity throughout the ages dwarfs that of any other religion by at least two orders of magnitude, and it continues apace at a far higher death count by far.

Spoken like a true radical Muslim, don't worry, as Shakespeare said, "the truth will out", and more and more people see it clearly.
 
 
0 # Aon Duine 2015-03-18 19:18
I am not a theist.
 
 
+10 # Granny Weatherwax 2015-01-12 17:00
Quoting brux:
How many multiples of violence is Islam that Christianity?


Less than one.

Quoting brux:

When was the last bombing of a clinic?


Do you remember the contras shunning sandinistas regiments and focusing instead on the so-called soft targets Ortega had promised to spread throughout Nicaragua?
I am referring to teachers and, yes, doctors.
 
 
0 # brux 2015-01-22 16:57
30 years ago.
Guess Germany is the same as it was 70 years ago them to, and Japan, and Italy is the same as it was 2000 years ago.
 
 
+1 # jazzman633 2015-01-12 20:44
Hear, hear, brux!

Expression is only expression, the police are there to protect your safety, not your feelings, and the responsibility for being offended lies with the offended, whether it's racial slurs, hate speech, taboo words, or pictures of the prophet.

All you censors and murderers...YOU have decided that YOU will become enraged or threatened by my words and pictures. How weak and pathetic. How nice of you to give me such power over you. Frankly, I don't want it.
 
 
0 # rhgreen 2015-01-15 14:44
Replying to "brux": Generalizing to "Islam" for any reason is just religious bigotry, and generalizing about Christianity for the sake of comparison is equally stupid. Shall I generalize about Christianity from what the Ulster Protestants and IRA Catholics did to each other, or what the Serb and Croat "Christians" did to each other. Or shall I generalize about Buddhists from what the Sri Lankan ones do to the Rohingya Muslins there? See also my reply to "Midwes Tom". The majority of the world's Muslims (62%) live in Asia and only 20% live in Arab countries which get most of the bad press for religious-based violence. I would rather live in majority Muslim (but tolerant) Malaysia or Indonesia than in fundamentalist christian (I refuse to capitalize it) dominated parts of the US South. Read some Joe Bageant on this, either "Deer Hunting with Jesus", or just google for his essays. I have lived in all three places. Have Brux or Midwes Tom? Do either of them know anything at all about that they are talking about? It doesn't seem so.
 
 
0 # brux 2015-01-15 23:17
Well, at least you are trying to be even handed, I'll give you that.

The problem is these societies are screwed up. It is not really Islam, but I'm not going to mince words because that is what everyone calls it and knows it by.

But even if it is not Islam, Islam is what is used to dehumanize the people living in these countries.

The 20% that lives in the Middle East has Mecca and virtually all the shrines. The two seats of Islamic sects are Saudi Arabia (Sunni) and Iran(Shiite).

You all want to say you see no difference, but Catholics and Protestants are done fighting each other. You don't get disqualified to be a full citizen if you are not one, the other, or neither.

You guys just like to take any discussion of this and tangle it up tighter and tighter like shoelaces until it becomes impossible to discuss and then you can just equate everything with everything else. BULLSH-

You love Islam so much - go to Indonesia and see how much they love you ... until your money is gone.
 
 
0 # Aon Duine 2015-03-18 19:25
One cannot speak of groups of beings or things without generalizing. Generalization is a good thing. Without it we would have no way to compare groups.

You are probably confusing generalization -- as most people do -- with sweeping generalization, which is the error in which the generalized properties of the group are applied to every individual in the group.

That there are degrees of good and bad in every group is obvious. But when comparing groups we have to consider the sum of their individual goodness and badness if we are to honestly confront the issue. And when taken in toto, the sins of Christianity and Christians dwarf those of other religions.

Why this is so is moot. That it is so is beyond argument.

What you propose is a false equivalence. That's a typical tool of propaganda -- to pretend that the cries of the victims and the justifications of the victimizers have equal validity and value. Only a fool believes in this sort of faux "objectivity."
 
 
-16 # Seadog 2015-01-12 17:32
No doubt the Christian right has its nut jobs and killers , but nowhere near the level we've been witnessing lately from radical Islamic groups. It bothers me to see segments of the left bending over backwards trying to make excuses for these villains.
 
 
+16 # tedrey 2015-01-12 20:07
Read more carefully. No one here is "making excuses" for those villains. We abominate them. But we also refuse to make excuses for OUR villains.
 
 
-8 # brux 2015-01-12 23:09
Yeah ... me too, in fact the more evidence that piles up against radical Islam the more insistent they get that Christians are evil ... it's almost funny.

What I think is going on here is that most of the far Left amazingly idiotic remarks are make by "sock puppets" to inflame those moderate easy going folks like me.

I don't buy into the nutso stuff said here ... read some of these posts. This site is most likely a CIA site to draw out people for the NSA to find. ( which is fine with me, but I am wasting my time arguing with a sock puppet that will always say the same thing )

No one can be as stupid as the comments I have heard here for months now.
 
 
+7 # Jim Rocket 2015-01-12 17:06
Uhhhh....Islam didn't do it. Try stretching your thinkin' muscle. It does hurt at bit at first.
 
 
0 # rhgreen 2015-01-15 14:16
Quoting MidwesTom:
Oh what a peaceful religion is Islam.

Why generalize to "Islam"? Have you ever been to peaceful & tolerant Muslim countries like Indonesia and Malaysia? The majority of the world's Muslims are not Arabs nor do they live in the Middle East. See also my reply to "Brux".
 
 
0 # brux 2015-01-15 23:08
>> Have you ever been to peaceful & tolerant Muslim countries like Indonesia and Malaysia?

Every read anything about East Timor?

Indonesia's occupation of East Timor was marked by violence and brutality. A detailed statistical report prepared for the Commission for Reception, Truth and Reconciliation in East Timor cited a minimum bound of 102,800 conflict-relate d deaths in the period 1974–1999, namely, approximately 18,600 killings and 84,200 "excess" deaths from hunger and illness.[25] The East Timorese guerrilla force (Forças Armadas da Libertação Nacional de Timor-Leste, Falintil) fought a campaign against the Indonesian forces from 1975 to 1999.[citation needed] The invasion was supported by the United States.[26][27] [28]
 
 
0 # Salus Populi 2015-01-27 15:13
Hmm. East Timor. Islamists? No, the government of Indonesia was installed by a U.S. backed and planned coup in 1965, on Armed Forces Day, using the pretext of a supposed PKI "plot."

The United States ambassador's office kept a list of over 2,000 "high value" leaders and other members of the PKI. which they shared with the generals, and crossed the names off as reports came in of their murder.

During the slaughter, the largest since WWII and counting up to a million and a half victims [CIA estimate], including the bulk of the ethnic Chinese business community as well as anyone and everyone suspected of belonging to the PKI, the Indonesian Communist Party, the largest, membership-wise , in the world at the time, and while the rivers were "clogged with bodies," many beheaded by sarangs wielded by fascist militia members, McNamara praised the coup planners, while Time Magazine called the slaughter "A Gleam of Light in Asia."

Was McNamara a Muslim? Was Time published by Islamists?

And when it came to East Timor, the U.S., under both parties, not only supported and supplied the invading U.S.-trained Indonesian army for a quarter of a century, but President Ford and Secretary Kissinger visited Jakarta the day before the attack, and as an apparent courtesy, the Indonesian government delayed the attack until they had left the capital.

Daniel Moynihan, U.S. envoy to the United Nations, compared the scale of the butchery to that of the Russians in WWII.

[1 of 2]
 
 
0 # Salus Populi 2015-01-27 15:13
[2 of 2]

In his autobiography, he bragged of his role in ensuring that anything the U.N. Security Council tried to do to stop the killing went nowhere.

Again, nothing in the state terrorism, which included supplying the survivors from the PKI as slave labor on Goodyear's rubber plantations for 20 years, had anything to do with Islam; it was simply _realpolitik_ and all in a quarter century's work for the U.S. ruling class.

That it could have been stopped at any time is shown by the fact that in 1999, under increasing pressure, Clinton finally picked up the phone and called President Suharto, and within days the troops were withdrawn and the killing ceased.
 
 
+55 # elizabethblock 2015-01-12 14:06
Something else you almost certainly won't see on Page One, or anywhere in the mainstream media: "Jailed by Israel for his Cartoons, Mohammed Saba'aneh Speaks Out." It's on the Electronic Intifada, November 13, 2013.
When I heard that among the governments represented at the big demo in Paris was Israel's, I had to laugh.
 
 
-22 # Seadog 2015-01-12 17:37
Kicking the JEWS will always get you a huge no. of thumbs up in here. Shameful.
 
 
-11 # brux 2015-01-13 00:43
You got it ... but I bet those Jews own this RSN website and are carefully watching all these miscreants and using the NSA data to find out who they are all and secretly funneling their minimum wage salaries out of their Payday Loan accounts and finding out where they park their trailers so one day they can get them all rounded up and sent to the Iran where they belong! ;-)
 
 
0 # rhgreen 2015-01-15 15:04
Quoting Seadog:
Kicking the JEWS will always get you a huge no. of thumbs up in here. Shameful.

Some people, like "Seadog" and "Brux", refuse to get the distinction between "the Jews" and "Israel". I use "refuse to" rather than "fail to", advisedly. Seadog and Brux, try to understand that a people having been badly treated in the past does not entitle them to occupy another people's land, proclaim it their own country, and behave like the worst international outlaw and neo-colonial power. In any case, the country they have created certainly can be criticized for going outside of international norms, without the critics being labelled "kickers of the Jews". Shame on you.
 
 
0 # brux 2015-01-15 23:01
And some people have to make useless personal comments and try to control everything rather than to listen to what people have to say and objectively consider it.

>> been badly treated in the past does not entitle them to occupy another people's land,

So I take it you are against the Indian Reservations and do not think Native Americans should be given their own land to have a sovereign country in?
 
 
+47 # Radscal 2015-01-12 14:45
Other attacks on media that are getting no mention in all the outrage over the Paris Terrorist Attack on Free Speech:
One of the first targets of the U.S. military invasion of Afghanistan was the al Jazeera station.
Early in our ground invasion of Iraq in 2003, a U.S. tank fired on the Baghdad Hotel which was the base for most international journalists.
Israel dropped a missile into RT TV's headquarters during last Summer's "mowing the lawn" slaughter in Gaza.

Then, there is the long list of journalists silenced, imprisoned or "suicided" by the National Security State.

Free Speech and a Free Press are no longer rights. They are privileges granted by the State on a case-by-case basis to selected individuals.
 
 
+16 # ronnewmexico 2015-01-12 16:09
exactly..well said.
 
 
+21 # Granny Weatherwax 2015-01-12 17:02
How about the shelling of the Palestine hotel in Baghdad, filled with reporters who had the gall not to be embedded in US units so that they could show the other point of view?
 
 
+9 # Radscal 2015-01-12 17:36
Oops. I called it the Baghdad Hotel. You're correct, it was the Palestine Hotel in Baghdad
 
 
+33 # tm7devils 2015-01-12 15:00
It's not the religion, you idiot, it's the radicalization of some of the adherents...whi ch, I might add, is a minuscule proportion of the followers of Islam. It IS a peaceful religion...if the Quran is followed as written...more peaceful than the Christian Bible.
YOU are part of the problem.
 
 
+1 # Philothustra 2015-01-12 17:12
Please read the Koran itself, you "devils"-


The "peace" to which Muslims refer has NOTHING to do with Muslim treatment of other people, or with Muslim attitudes toward holy war and violent jihad:
Surah 4: Al Nisa: The Women (section 8, #56)
"Those who reject our signs, we shall soon cast into the Fire;
as often as their skins are roasted through, we shall change
them for fresh skins that they may taste the penalty, ..."

Surah 8: Al Anfal: The Spoils of War (section 2, #12)
"... I [Allah] will instil terror into the hearts of unbelievers:
smite ye above their necks and smite all their fingertips off them."

Surah 14: Ibrahim: Abraham (section 3, #16-17)
"In front of such a one [unbeliever] is Hell, and he is given
for drink, boiling fetid water. In gulps will he sip it, but
never will he be near swallowing it down his throat:

Surah 14: Ibrahim: Abraham (section 7, #49)
"And thou wilt see the sinners that day bound together in fetters
- their garments will be liquid pitch, and their faces
covered with Fire."

Surah 23: Al Muminun: The Believers (section 6, #103-104)
"... The Fire will burn their faces, and they will therein grin, with their lips displaced."-

... tortures, burning, explosions and death, all expressed with a sense of satisfaction and even joy--

"The Peace which surpasseth understanding"
Indeed!
 
 
+4 # ronnewmexico 2015-01-12 18:12
And we can in like kind find such things in a christian bible….. but from a islamic university who it the "it" on interpretatiion s of the koran…al azhar

“In fact, Muslim communities all over the world share the pains and sadness with the victims’ families and friends. Our hearts bleed for their loss and pains,” Dr. Wael Shihab, who has a PhD in Islamic Studies from Al-Azhar University, told OnIslam.net.

““Such crimes against humanity are not justified in Islam or world faiths. Those criminals cannot be true believers of any faith,” he added.

The Muslim scholar added that killing is a heinous crime that is totally rejected in Islam.

““Attacking even a single human is regarded by Islam as grave and heinous as killing all innocent people of the world. The Qur’an reads, {Whosoever kills a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saves the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind.} (Al-Ma’idah 5: 32)”

Dr. Tariq Ramadan,
“Contrary to what was apparently said by the killers in the bombing of Charlie Hebdo’s headquarters, it is not the Prophet who was avenged, it is our religion, our values and Islamic principles that have been betrayed and tainted,” he tweeted.

“My condemnation is absolute and my anger is profound (healthy and one thousand times justified) against this horror!!!

Hundreds more..there simply is not space.
 
 
-7 # brux 2015-01-13 00:48
>> And we can in like kind find such things in a christian bible

Maybe, if you look really hard with a good imagination - but you can't find Christians any more that take it seriously or Christian leaders who try to justify terrorism.

The vast majority of Muslims have no connection to any of the Muslims scholars you are pointing to. You seem to just love to cherry pick what you want to create the most insane world you can imagine ... you must be absolutely terrified to wake up in the morning.
 
 
0 # Salus Populi 2015-01-27 15:30
"but you can't find Christians any more that take it seriously or Christian leaders who try to justify terrorism."

Then Pat Robertson is not a "Christian leader"? He called for the assassination of Hugo Chavez, and denounced the victims of one of the hurricanes in Virginia as having deserved their fate because the United States was tolerant of homosexuals and had legalized abortion. And this was no private communication; it went out over the air on the 700 Club.

As for the Bible, you need little imagination nor hard research to find, especially in the Old Testament, calls supposedly issued by YHWH for killing all males over the age of 14 and taking the women as concubines, slaughtering all the animals of enemies, etc.

Nor did this kinder, gentler Xian/Jewish God refrain from condemning sinners among his "choosing [not 'chosen'] people," burning Sodom, turning Lot into a pillar of salt for turning her head, etc.

Face it, every Abrahamic religion postulates a violent and vengeful sociopath as a God, who cannot tolerate competition, and mandates death for trivial offenses against his Rules.
 
 
+4 # reiverpacific 2015-01-12 18:45
Quoting Philothustra:
Please read the Koran itself, you "devils"-
The "peace" to which Muslims refer has NOTHING to do with Muslim treatment of other people, or with Muslim attitudes toward holy war and violent jihad:
Surah 4: Al Nisa: The Women (section 8, #56)
"Those who reject our signs, we shall soon cast into the Fire;
as often as their skins are roasted through, we shall change
them for fresh skins that they may taste the penalty, ..."
Surah 8: Al Anfal: The Spoils of War (section 2, #12)
"... I [Allah] will instil terror into the hearts of unbelievers:
smite ye above their necks and smite all their fingertips off them."
Surah 14: Ibrahim: Abraham (section 3, #16-17)
"In front of such a one [unbeliever] is Hell, and he is given
for drink, boiling fetid water. In gulps will he sip it, but
never will he be near swallowing it down his throat:
Surah 14: Ibrahim: Abraham (section 7, #49)
"And thou wilt see the sinners that day bound together in fetters
- their garments will be liquid pitch, and their faces
covered with Fire."
Surah 23: Al Muminun: The Believers (section 6, #103-104)
"... The Fire will burn their faces, and they will therein grin, with their lips displaced."-
tortures, burning, explosions and death, all expressed with a sense of satisfaction and even joy--
"The Peace which surpasseth understanding"
Indeed!

Sounds a Helluva lot like the "Fire and Brimstone" Old Testament; "I, thy God, am a JEALOUS God!" QV.
 
 
+7 # ronnewmexico 2015-01-12 19:11
All three are pretty much the same from the bible….

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)


A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)


Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)


1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)


If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

No that one is worse..they are largely found equal.
 
 
+3 # ronnewmexico 2015-01-12 19:14
I can list probably I would guess. a hundred more of like kind and type.

New testament was god slaying of a believer who did not give all of a proceeds to the church but only part. Him and his wife lying on this..struck dead by god…new testament...

Curioius all this one kind saying the other kind is this or that.
 
 
+13 # deadhead 2015-01-12 16:33
It is the religion .... you idiot. You can hem and haw all you want about "misinterpretat ions" and "misuse" of religious ideals. Religion justifies unholy righteousness for one's cause. Without religion and the arguments about whose god is bigger and badder, maybe we could pause and see that we are all more alike than we are different.
 
 
+5 # ronnewmexico 2015-01-12 18:27
Agree in concept but however would add some nuance to it..

Religions are used by the powers that be as any who hold power find the need to have a enemy to enable that power…this is like as not religion when race gender kind type does not suffice..these all are tools to keep us at eachothers neck and off theirs..clearly plainly this is always in part their usage.

They may be great things of good to elicit compassion in peoples it is just that we find always..those in power do use them for cause…and their cause is not ours. It is evil their cause…we must look at that evil first to see if a evil exists inherently even in any of these the big three.
 
 
0 # brux 2015-01-22 16:55
>> It is the religion .... you idiot.

First of all you are the idiot to call someone an idiot like that.

Secondly, if the problems were caused just by religion they would be the same problems over all time over all religions.

Not all religions are doing bad things, so it is not religion, it is groups of people in different institutions, religion is a common but not exclusive.
 
 
+9 # reiverpacific 2015-01-12 17:21
None of the "Big Three" mass-marketing and public control devices known as "Organized Religions" -and many of their often conflicting sub-divisions or cults, have any room to point the finger at each other.
Over the ages and "within living memory", they have arguably, with land, resource-plunde r and power-seeking, been the major cause of multiple slaughter -including innocents- and have all had their cycles in turn or concurrently.
I'm sure most of the reasoning and educated amongst you (and there are some pretty almost deranged, one-way blinkered bile-spitters posting their unbalanced views as if they were irrefutable, on RSN too: you know who you are) don't need me to take you a wearisome journey through history to try and arrive at a balanced position on this always touchy subject, so I'll spare you the blah-blahs.
Remember, they're all based on mythical events handed down through > two millennia and in the case of the Old Testament of the Jews, a lot longer than that!
I do enjoy a few of the stories though, like Jesus driving out the Money-changers in the Temple precinct and Mohammed (who acknowledged Jesus and other former prophets) apparently cutting off a sleeve of his robe rather than disturb one of his cats sleeping on it (as an avid cat-lover, I REALLY like that one, myth or not).
So in the words of the founder of Christianity "Judge not, lest ye yourself be judged"!
Freedom and free-speech have been something that has had to be fought for "in living memory".
 
 
+12 # geraldom 2015-01-12 18:13
If the many and diverse Christian sects in the U.S. and throughout the world today, including the Vatican itself, want to prove that they actually believe in the tenets of Jesus Christ and all that he said, then they must immediately condemn the violence perpetrated by the U.S. and its allies in Europe and in the middle-east, most especially Israel which continues to slaughter with complete impunity and without any remorse, the Palestinian people, and I happen to be of the Jewish persuasion.

They must not only condemn the evil and illegal actions of war and violence by the United States and its allies (puppet nations) throughout the world, they must also demand in the most vehement terms that the United States and its co-partners in crime throughout the world immediately cease and desist this violence for its nefarious agenda of world conquest rather than supporting these ignoble actions or keeping silent on them.

The Christian church throughout the world has tremendous power to bring true peace to this world and to stop those nations who claim to be Christian but act against the true Christian faith as expressed by Jesus.

If truth be told, if the western world led by the U.S. had left the Muslim world alone rather than invading and occupying them illegally for control of their lands and of their energy resources, resulting in the deaths of millions upon millions of innocent people, men, women and children, whole families, we wouldn't have ISIS today or al Qaida.
 
 
+4 # Depressionborn 2015-01-12 21:02
geraldom: There is much in what you say.

The "news" certainly reads like prophesy when the world as usual is engaged in war or about to be. It must be our human nature. JFK was going to get out of Vietnam and confront banking, (silver backed notes). It is said he was also going to be unkind to the CIA? It wasn't to be.

Now we have lots of war, much financial indiscretion, and spooks in every wall.
 
 
+3 # geraldom 2015-01-12 23:00
Quoting Depressionborn:
geraldom: There is much in what you say.

The "news" certainly reads like prophesy when the world as usual is engaged in war or about to be. It must be our human nature. JFK was going to get out of Vietnam and confront banking, (silver backed notes). It is said he was also going to be unkind to the CIA? It wasn't to be.

Now we have lots of war, much financial indiscretion, and spooks in every wall.


JFK was unfortunately assassinated because of some of the salient points that you make.
 
 
0 # rxfxworld 2015-01-13 04:54
Just what is it that gives you your Jewish persuasion? You sound, if anything, like a "Messianic Jew" or a "Jew for Jesus". Which are you. Just askin, ya know
 
 
+1 # geraldom 2015-01-13 13:11
Quoting rxfxworld:
Just what is it that gives you your Jewish persuasion? ......... Just askin, ya know


rxfxworld, I don't think that you're just asking. I detect something else, something more arrogant, in your tone.

The simplest answer to your query is that I am not a Christian nor am I a "Jew for Jesus." I just support much of what Jesus said, or what he was purported to have said, and what he represented, and that is all I plan on saying on the subject because you seem to sound very much like one of the trolls that haunt these chatrooms on RSN.
 
 
+4 # John Mortl 2015-01-12 19:47
When to oppose censorship or when to support it that's the question. Right now it's not only safe and acceptable to support the satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo's right to free expression, it's almost obligatory to hyperventilate on their right to offend. Let the French authorities prosecute another hapless individual for transgressing the taboo of questioning the slightest detail of the tales of the Holocaust and watch all those fair weather friends of free speech fade into the furniture.
 
 
-5 # moafu@yahoo.com 2015-01-12 20:13
YIKES....SCARY FOR ME !
I AGREE W/ NOAM CHOMSKY THE 80 YR. OLD TEENAGER.

NEVERTHELESS, EVERYONE....
WHERE WAS PUTZUS DURING THE PARIS MARCH ?
 
 
0 # seeuingoa 2015-01-13 00:33
and Philothustra, have a look in the Bible:

Moses 5 book (Deuterium) chapter 21
and
Samuels 1 book chapter 15
 
 
+3 # aljoschu 2015-01-13 05:09
It is Noam Chomsky's merit to keep his finger in the wound: We recently learned that the radical islamists have their own hit-lists of people they want to murder - just like Obama has his list. Only they do it in the gory old handmade way just in front of our doors, while Obama gets it done remotely by some computer nerds back in Texas. Yes, terrorism is terrorism, but the one is fanatic, insane - the other is to defend "freedom and democracy"... But this is the lie at the core: it is not at all about freedom and democracy - it is about resources, influence, expansion, subjugation and hegemony! Only.
 
 
+4 # Dale 2015-01-13 08:08
The Warmongers doublespeak--
“Truly War is the only Roadmap to Peace.”
The Directorate of National Insecurity
Knows that a “War on Terror”
Is a never-ending cycle of creating terrorists,
Medieval and Evil as they are.
Evil begets Evil to better serve
The Devil of Empire.
With the manufactured intelligence of NSA
The boogeymen abroad are missiled and droned,
Only to create a thousand more.
Special Ops secretly assassinate suspects
And the drones guide their deadly missiles
Because The War on Jihadist Ghosts keeps the money flowing,
And the Culture of Fear deepened.
Anyway, murder is more efficient and cheaper than torture,
Avoids the embarrassment of secret renditions and Guantanamo,
And creates for every martyr a hundred militants,
The more to feed the Death Machine.
The Blowback from
Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria…
Is intended consequence,
How else to cycle Perpetual War?
The terror of missiles and bombs is unleased against hapless populations.
A Warfare State demonizes Muslims,
Invades and occupies their lands,
Bombs their villages,
Threatens continuing violence,
Imposes sanctions,
The end being Global Domination
Administered by the War Machine.
A Lawless State pursuing the Global Empire
Envisioned by the Dominant Class of AmeriKa Inc.
As retaliatory tactics the violence of Jijad is counterproductive,
Serving to fire the Imperial Beast
And yielding power to the most retrograde elements of Muslim society.
 
 
+2 # ronnewmexico 2015-01-13 11:42
Kudos…excellent stuff that. Particularly the way it is written. In that manner it presents singular but with the whole being found in the contents substance..

Truly excellent. Well done.
 
 
-4 # tgemberl 2015-01-13 17:26
Chomsky thinks the bombing of the Serbian TV station was a war crime. He might be right. But I wonder how the Albanians and other non-Serbs felt about that when they heard all the Serbian bombs raining down on them.

I appreciate Chomsky's idealism and consistency with his principles. But to what extent can you be an idealist in the midst of life's struggles?

I've noticed that people on RSN applaud Chomsky. But remember that he actually condemned the Russian taking of Crimea in one of his columns on RSN. People seem to think he's good to the extent that he supports their views, but if not, they ignore him.
 
 
0 # tgemberl 2015-01-13 17:47
Actually, I'm not sure the article where he condemned the annexing of Crimea was on RSN. But someone on RSN gave me a link to it. It's out there.
 
 
+2 # ronnewmexico 2015-01-13 20:44
I noticed Amy Goodman crying at one panel years ago with the dali lama. I know the dali lama was on the dole of the CIA for the better part of 20 years 100 plus k per year. He donated it all to the cause but nevertheless. it was the source now and then of very heinous deeds.

Point being we cannot expect anyone to hold all our views and must examine our own on our own. Noam pretty much provides a balance to things.

Crimea..he was firmly wrong on that, as AG was with the Dali lama to my opinion..but that means not a whole lot in the whole of things. Generally noam and amy are willing to stand up and examine about any thing. Some right perhaps some maybe not, nevertheless they are examining always.
I cannot say that in my concern as I examine only some things…so they are better than me in that thing of examination…

Faceebook noam..."
Russia's annexation of Crimea was an illegal act. One comparable example comes to mind: U.S. control of Guantanamo Bay in southeastern Cuba. Guantanamo was wrested from Cuba at gunpoint in 1903 and not relinquished despite Cuba's demands ever since it attained independence in 1959. To be sure, Russia has a far stronger case. Even apart from strong internal support for the annexation, Crimea is historically Russian; it has Russia's only warm-water port, the home of Russia's fleet; and has enormous strategic significance. The United States has no claim at all to Guantanamo, other than its monopoly of force."
 
 
0 # tgemberl 2015-01-14 20:56
Thanks for finding that quote from the article. Here's the URL:
http://inthesetimes.com/article/16631/russia_ukraine_noam_chomsky
 
 
0 # Salus Populi 2015-01-27 15:48
Indeed, Chomsky, in my view unjustly, went along with the demonization of the Serbs during the Kosovo intervention -- but he still condemned unreservedly the illegal NATO bombing, and said at the time that it would only increase the repression and violence in Yugoslavia.

He also brought up the so-called "Annex B" of the Rambouillet Accords, inserted secretly following completion of the negotiations by the U.S. [Mad Albright, who said "The Serbs need some bombing."], which essentially abolished Serbian sovereignty over its own land, replacing it with that of NATO's occupying force.

As Chomsky said, no sovereign state could agree to such terms, and no leader who did could remain in power, so that Annex B was calculated to force the Serbs to reject the Accords, and open the door for Mad's desired bombing.
 
 
+1 # randi1randi1@yahoo.com 2015-01-14 12:22
Don't forget Diego Garcia.
 
 
0 # Activista 2015-01-15 12:19
NATO Bombs TV Station in Serbia
www.revisionisthistory.org/nato1.html
"Croatian television spreading hatred a-plenty when it was ethnically cleansing 170,000 Serbs from Croatia in 1995. But we didn't bomb Zagreb. And when President Franjo Tudjman's lads were massacring Serbs and Muslims alike in Bosnia, we didn't bomb his residence.

Was Serbian television's real sin its broadcast of film of the Nato massacre of Kosovo Albanian refugees last week, killings that Nato was forced to admit had been a mistake? Yes, Serbian television could be hateful, biased, bad. It was owned by the government. But once you kill people because you don't like what they say, you have changed the rules of war. And that's what Nato did in Belgrade in the early hours of yesterday morning."
 
 
0 # Activista 2015-01-15 12:21
List of killed RTS workers
Aleksandar Deletić (30), cameraman
Branislav Jovanović (50), master technician
Darko Stoimenovski (25), visiting technician
Dejan Marković (39), security worker
Dragan Tasić (29), electrician
Dragorad Dragojević (27), security worker
Ivan Stukalo (33), technician
Jelica Munitlak (27), make-up artist
Ksenija Banković (27), vision mixer
Milan Joksimović (47), security worker
Milovan Janković (59), precision machinist
Nebojša Stojanović (26), master technician
Siniša Medić (32), production designer
Slaviša Stevanović (32), technician
Slobodan Jontić (54), director.
Tomislav Mitrović (61), program director
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_the_Radio_Television_of_Serbia_headquarters
state terrorism is much worse than 3 man in France ...
 
 
0 # tgemberl 2015-01-15 17:13
So now are you demanding "equal atrocities" against all parties in conflicts? The bombing of Serbian TV would be okay if they bombed Croatian TV, too?

Maybe it really was wrong to bomb Serbian TV. I believe in freedom of expression, even for Nazis. The only point I was trying to make is that in deadly conflicts, bad things happen. There's no way to make everyone safe.

In assigning blame, you have to ask who started the conflict. Serbia was, I think, the dominant element in the old Yugoslavia. They wanted to keep as much territory for themselves as possible. They wanted Bosnia, though it was more Muslim than Serbian. Actually, Bosnia has Serbs, Muslims, and Catholics (Croats) in almost equal numbers. In contrast, Croatia is overwhelmingly Catholic, and Serbia is overwhelmingly Orthodox. It's reasonable for Bosnia to be independent of both Serbia and Croatia.

So it seems that Muslims and Croats in Bosnia were pretty threatened. The TV station shouldn't have been bombed, but war is dangerous for everybody. If you don't want danger, don't start wars.
 
 
+1 # Salus Populi 2015-01-27 16:01
Sorry, but you're conflating two separate conflicts: the Bosnian war in 1995 and the Kosovo war in 1999 -- the latter, which included the unapologetic war crime of bombing the civilian infrastructure (NATO's spokesperson publicly stated that the purpose of bombing bridges and other outlawed targets was to convince the Serbs they needed to abandon Milosevic and install a new government: a crime under international law in and of itself) including the television station, was fought, in alliance with both USAma Binladdin's jihadists and Shi'a volunteers from Iran, entirely on behalf of the UCK, which in 1998 had been listed by the State Department as a terrorist organization, and was estimated by Interpol to be responsible for smuggling 80 per cent of the Mideast heroin that came into Europe, as well as engaging in human trafficking of girls as young as 12 or 13.

Nor were the Albanians in Kosovo being targeted by the Serbs; instead, the UCK was committing murders of Serb police and the like, as well as defacing Orthodox churches, and the Serb authorities were responding to the ethnic Albanian terrorism, which also was directed at the other, non-Serb populations of the country: the Roma, the Turks, the Hungarians, the Jews, and Albanians who opposed the UCK.
 
 
0 # bibi 2015-01-19 09:35
I had posted this a few days ago in reply to someone here who had said religions cause wars. The comment was up but now it's gone and I see this site is just as hypocritical as mainstream media.
Leave this on cause if you have the courage.
Seven times more people have died in Christian wars: 113.8 million compared to the 16.4 million who died in Muslim wars.
But are all wars that have been fought religious wars?
 

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