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Boardman writes: "Those who get Ebola wrong at this point are not 'minimally qualified' for positions of leadership, and the worst of them should be quarantined from infecting the public with further mindless panic."

Governor Chris Christie of New Jersey. (photo: Emile Wamsteker/Bloomberg/Getty Images)
Governor Chris Christie of New Jersey. (photo: Emile Wamsteker/Bloomberg/Getty Images)


Ebola Leaves Chris Christie Unqualified to Be President, or Governor

By William Boardman, Reader Supported News

27 October 14

 

New Jersey Governor feeds panic, shouting “Fire!” in crowded theatre

bola is not a hidden story these days. Any minimally qualified leader should be able to get it right, as the mayor and medical establishment of New York City have clearly demonstrated. Those who get Ebola wrong at this point are not “minimally qualified” for positions of leadership, and the worst of them should be quarantined from infecting the public with further mindless panic.

Responding to Ebola in late October, Chris Christie, 52, the Republican governor of New Jersey, confirmed beyond any reasonable doubt that he is unfit to be President of the United States, or to hold any other public office in which he has responsibility for the health and safety of other human beings. Christie managed this one-two self-knockout punch first by declaring a scientifically unjustified, fear-feeding quarantine policy, then by flat out lying about the quarantine’s first victim.

In recent years, Christie has risen to be what passes for a heavyweight in Republican political circles, in great part by persuading people that he is a straight-shooting, tell-it-like-it-is leader, not some cheap shill for his financial friends willing to close down part of the world’s busiest bridge for reasons rooted in some petty vendetta. Whether he turns out to be that cheap shill remains to be seen. On October 25 in Iowa, where he was campaigning early for president again, the Jersey straight-shooter fired off dishonest remarks that pander to public panic over Ebola.

Maybe Christie was too preoccupied with the 2016 presidential election to get the facts right about Ebola in 2014. Surely the week had offered some unsettling Ebola events, but it’s his job as governor – and would be even more so as president – to get reality right, especially when it’s none too complex. Whatever the reasons contributing to Christie’s persuasive portrayal of a feckless and dishonest leader, here’s the outline of how it unfolded.

Thursday, October 23, Dr. Craig Spencer self-diagnosed with Ebola

Dr. Spencer, 33, returned to New York City on October 17 (variously reported as October 12 or 14) from Guinea, where he had been treating Ebola patients for Doctors Without Borders. Screened at the airport, he showed no Ebola symptoms. All the same, he did not go immediately back to work at Columbia Presbyterian Hospital, but followed a medically-proper regimen of limited activity and self-monitoring. He remained without Ebola symptoms through October 22, and was not contagious during that period. Apparently his blood was not tested for the Ebola virus while he was symptom-free.

On October 23, Dr. Spencer took his temperature again and found it slightly elevated, a low-grade fever of 100.3 degrees. He immediately and appropriately went into medical isolation and treatment, where he tested positive for Ebola. (As this is written, he continues in treatment.)

The news set off widespread media coverage, including the frightening and false report that Dr. Spencer went bowling with a temperature of 103 the night before he went into treatment. He did NOT go bowling with a temperature of 103 at any time. When he went into treatment his temperature was 100.3, almost three degrees lower than reported. Much of the media, governmental, and public panic derived from this major error.

Dr. Spencer’s fiancée was briefly quarantined in a New York hospital, but was released on October 25 to home quarantine that lasts until November 14. She has shown no symptoms of Ebola.

Friday, October 24, governors give Ebola police state response

Driven by and at the same time reinforcing media fear-mongering, Governor Christie talked a reluctant New York governor, Democrat Andrew Cuomo, 56, into announcing a bi-state policy, ordering the quarantine of all arriving air travelers who have had any contact with West African Ebola patients. Governor Cuomo had opposed the policy earlier in the day, then reversed himself after meeting privately with Christie. Two days later he was calling it “unenforceable,” but not calling for any change.

A measure of the governors’ panic is that they acted without consulting the White House, federal health officials, state health officials, or New York City health officials.

The New York mayor, Democrat Bill de Blasio, 53, opposed the quarantine policy both before and after it was implemented. The governors did not consult the mayor in advance. Unlike either governor, the mayor spent time the next few days in public, re-tracing the steps of Dr. Spencer before he was diagnosed, in an effort to reassure the public about the limited reality of the danger from Ebola.

In New Jersey Friday afternoon, authorities at Newark International Airport detained a nurse who had treated Ebola patients in Sierra Leone. Even though she had no symptoms, authorities locked her alone in an empty room for three hours without food or drink, then transferred her in a convoy with eight police cars to University Hospital in Newark as a prisoner.

When a reporter asked Governor Christie about the nurse in detention, according to the N.Y. Daily News, “Christie answered with his usual brio,” which is hard to distinguish from his usual callousness. What he said was: “She’s not in the United [Airlines] lounge. I have no damn idea where she is, probably at Sbarro getting pizza.”

Despite the flip remarks, Christie was apparently not in touch with the reality he had created in Newark, and that reality was ugly.

Saturday, October 25, nurse describes “preventive detention”

The nurse in custody was Kaci Hickox, 33, a Texan with degrees from the University of Texas and Johns Hopkins. She had been caring for Ebola patients in Sierra Leone for Doctors Without Borders. She had been traveling for two days when she arrived in Newark on Friday, only to be treated callously and incompetently by airport, police, and medical personnel.

That made her angry, angry enough to write about her experience in the Dallas Morning News on Saturday. Officials came and went for six hours without explaining what they were doing. They had said she had a temperature, and they were wrong. They were afraid she would expose others, but she tested negative for Ebola. They decided to hold her in 21-day quarantine, because they could.

Trying to remain calm while exhausted, hungry, thirsty, and being treated like a criminal, Kaci Hickox got flushed but managed to remain reasonably calm. And when she decided to object to her treatment under a misguided policy adopted to serve political rather than medical ends, she objected not just for herself. After testing negative for Ebola, she wrote:

I sat alone in the isolation tent and thought of many colleagues who will return home to America and face the same ordeal. Will they be made to feel like criminals and prisoners?

I recalled my last night at the Ebola management center in Sierra Leone. I was called in at midnight because a 10-year-old girl was having seizures. I coaxed crushed tablets of Tylenol and an anti-seizure medicine into her mouth as her body jolted in the bed. It was the hardest night of my life. I watched a young girl die in a tent, away from her family.

With few resources and no treatment for Ebola, we tried to offer our patients dignity and humanity in the face of their immense suffering…. We need more health care workers to help fight the epidemic in West Africa. The U.S. must treat returning health care workers with dignity and humanity.

Doctors Without Borders has been critical of the NY-NJ quarantine orders that go well beyond federal regulations, but they have not challenged the orders because they are so unclear and imprecise that a specific challenge is hard to make. The vagueness of these orders may well lead to their being found illegal or unconstitutional. The organization also raised questions about whether the orders were fair and reasonable, or appropriately carried out, since nurse Hickox is isolated in an unheated tent (Newark temperature dropped below 50) and allowed to wear only “uncomfortable paper scrubs.” The tent has a portable toilet, but no television and no shower.

Later on Saturday, Chris Christie let his ignorant inhumanity show

In Iowa, Christie was raising money for Republican congressman Steve King, whose recent opinions include his assertion that President Obama wants “to treat people in Africa as if they were American citizens.” Kaci Hickox is an American citizen, and she’s in solitary confinement for being healthy after doing Good Samaritan work in Africa. A reporter asked Christie for his reaction to the nurse’s newspaper piece, and he responded:

My heart goes out to her because she’s someone who has been trying to help others and is obviously ill….

I’m sorry if in any way she was inconvenienced but inconvenience that could occur from having folks that are symptomatic and ill out amongst the public is a much, much greater concern of mine. I hope she recovers quickly, and we’re going to do everything we can in New Jersey and in our public health system to make sure that she does.

Christie’s response is at least as wrong as it is indecent. The nurse is not “obviously ill,” she’s apparently not ill at all. She wasn’t “inconvenienced,” she is being subjected to an arbitrary, ill-defined, incompetently executed, and possibly illegal order. She’s not “symptomatic and ill,” there was no threat to the public whatsoever. Christie has set himself up to take credit for nurse Hickox recovering from an illness she doesn’t have, but it’s unlikely his heart went out to her any more than his head did. Christie has compounded his fear-mongering and abuse of authority with a level of demagoguery that should disqualify him from further office, not that it always works that way.

And for a second time, Kaci Hickox has tested negative for Ebola.

Sunday, October 26, some resistance to fear, panic, stupidity

Meanwhile, saner, more honest heads are being heard from in reaction to the panic orders that produced this mindless farce. The American Civil Liberties Union in New Jersey took only two days to say publicly that the mandatory quarantine order might be an abuse of power:

Coercive measures like mandatory quarantine of people exhibiting no symptoms of Ebola and when not medically necessary raise serious constitutional concerns about the state abusing its powers. By forcibly detaining people we are also frightening the public and may deter genuinely sick people who fear quarantine from seeking the treatments they deserve, while also discouraging caregivers and first responders from helping sick patients who need their assistance.

On CBS, Anthony Fauci, the head of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases at the National Institutes of Health (NIH) also warned, somewhat tepidly, against the bi-state governors’ ill-conceived quarantine orders, saying that: “The best way to protect Americans is to stop the epidemic in Africa, and we need those healthcare workers to do that.”

The Centers for Disease Control has yet to speak out publicly, but it leaked the news that the agency is “not happy” with the governors’ decision.

New York Mayor Bill de Blasio addressed the fruits of fear-mongering directly. He not only criticized the treatment of nurse Hickox in Newark as shameful, he spoke out against stigmatizing workers at Bellevue Hospital, where Dr. Spencer is being treated.

Even the White House has weighed in, suggesting that governors Christie and Cuomo should have consulted others before acting ineffectually and in panic. The White House has reportedly asked the governors to rescind their decision which, together with fear-driven policies adopted in Connecticut, Illinois, Florida, and other states acting on their own, threatens to make any rational national policy impossible.

On the other hand, while Democrats dither, the lack of cogent national policy may suit Republicans just fine. Chris Christie has said he has “no second thoughts,” which is yet another quality a good leader can do without.

Monday, October 27, something like sanity trickles down ...

On second thought, Governor Christie has said he will release his political prisoner, nurse Hickox who doesn’t have Ebola, just as soon as details can be worked out with Maine, where she lives. Christie’s announcement came after he predicted on Fox News that New Jersey policy would become national policy. That was before New York changed policy.

Under intense medical and political pressure, Governor Cuomo has announced a loosening of the quarantine order, but it remains draconian and a trophy of the triumph of fear over science. This was Cuomo’s second course reversal in 72 hours. Cuomo was joined at his news conference by Mayor de Blasio, who praised the governor for adopting the kind of flexibility that de Blasio had urged all along. The mayor also attacked the way New Jersey has treated nurse Hickox.

All this fits a much too familiar paradigm of American politics these days: the people who know what they’re doing are ignored, while Democrats dither (and some grope in the right direction), while Republicans with complete self-confidence march serenely in the wrong direction, trashing the constitution without even thinking about it. Here the added bite comes from the panic-driven, political grandstanding supposedly to “protect Americans” with a policy designed to undermine efforts to control the Ebola outbreak in Africa, thereby further endangering pretty much everyone, all for the sake of American exceptionalism.

But isn’t that what we want in a president?



William M. Boardman has over 40 years experience in theatre, radio, TV, print journalism, and non-fiction, including 20 years in the Vermont judiciary. He has received honors from Writers Guild of America, Corporation for Public Broadcasting, Vermont Life magazine, and an Emmy Award nomination from the Academy of Television Arts and Sciences.

Reader Supported News is the Publication of Origin for this work. Permission to republish is freely granted with credit and a link back to Reader Supported News.

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+35 # brux 2014-10-27 17:50
Ebola might be the only way Chris Christie can lose some weight.
 
 
+25 # keenon the truth 2014-10-28 00:15
Oh my, had a stifle a laugh. Inappropriate but funny!
 
 
0 # RobertMStahl 2014-10-29 12:42
Okay, that was funny. But, there are two forensic questions, if not, three:

1. How accurate (how many errors have been recorded) is the test 'proving' that one has Ebola? Has anyone that has been tested negative, actually tested negative using precision in science (repeatable testing, but the same in all locations), turned out to have Ebola in that same subscribed time period, afterward?

2. What is the most detailed case having to do with catching the disease on the fly, thus spreading it, somehow similarly, but on the fly again? Since it can spread like the flu when transmission is airborne, is it misguided to look for cases about the exact vectors involved (e.g. fluid, gas) and establish the limits of these mechanisms (i.e. plural) or their versatility?

3. Why is the CDC trying to become a firebrand in this case, if not all of their recent history? Read Paul Craig Roberts. Study HIV/AIDS, such as the AIDS Blunder on YouTube. Anthrax, too.
 
 
+1 # RMDC 2014-10-30 08:21
Good questions, RobertMSthal.

The CDC was never set up to promote health. It was created as the health police on the model of the FBI. The CDC's first big project was the Tuskeegee experiment in which African American men were infected with syphillis and not treated so that the CDC could see the long term etiology of the disease.

The CDC completely bungled the AIDS crisis, forcing people to take huge doses of AZT which actually caused the wasting syndrome and killed them. On the CDC's website AIDS was called a "surveilance system" for about 10 years. It was designed to keep track of the health issues of gay men -- in just the way the FBI keeps track of certain classes of people it wants to know about. The CDC keeps data on a level that compares to the NSA.
 
 
+1 # WBoardman 2014-10-30 15:11
RobertMStahl asks one good question - #1– for which
that is, presumably, at least interim clinical information,
though where to find it is a challenge.
But with all the fear-mongering going on, one might think
that if such a case existed, we would be hearing about it.

#2 assumes facts not in evidence. It also distracts attention from what is known: contact with dead Ebola victims
has been a huge factor in spreading the disease.
That's a cultural norm that is being addressed.

As for the CDC, why all the distrust?
When it comes to the CDC as an institution,
I'm a low-information agnostic.

Credible sources for CDC distrust are welcome.
I'm aware how badly the Reagan administration handled AIDS,
but not specifically aware of CDC role.
 
 
+57 # universlman 2014-10-27 17:55
Christie is right on track to become the GOP candidate for President by exposing his disdain for science.
 
 
+47 # CL38 2014-10-27 23:01
and disdain for citizen rights.
 
 
+9 # Old4Poor 2014-10-28 13:07
In which case I expect his running mate to be Louis Gohmert.
 
 
+30 # Willman 2014-10-27 18:19
I attribute the mass media fueled hysteria concerning ebola to the race of the majority of affected people.
The same way the residents of New Orleans were granted a "flyover" by the shrub.
The flu we live with is air borne and kills many more. But most of the folks see it as not only a "black" disease.
 
 
-2 # bmiluski 2014-10-28 08:54
Oh Willman, sigh....nurse Hickox is white.
 
 
+8 # A_Har 2014-10-28 10:15
Quoting Willman:
I attribute the mass media fueled hysteria concerning ebola to the race of the majority of affected people.
The same way the residents of New Orleans were granted a "flyover" by the shrub.
The flu we live with is air borne and kills many more. But most of the folks see it as not only a "black" disease.


This disease doesn't give a SH*T about what race you are, and being PC is not going to stop it.
 
 
+68 # politicfix 2014-10-27 18:24
Why is Christie even out there when he has been indicted for crimes in New Jersey? How is it possible that the United States Government would allow men who have been indicted to even run for a political office. I'm talking about Walker, Christie and Perry who should never be allowed to run for any office again let alone run for President. Christie was, is, and will always be a bully. He's proved once again that he is not leader material. He may do a heck of a job as a janitor taking his aggression out on his work rather than people, but the man needs therapy more than anything else and we do not need him inflicting himself on the masses. The Democrats need to grab themselves up by their boot strings and get some guts and start fighting for what's right and ignoring what's wrong. If they weren't taking money from the financiers, and feel obligated to do what they want, they may grow a set of balls and actually stand up for the people who put them in there and our country. The Democrats need to embrace the left progressive values instead of thinking the only way they can get elected is by being a moderate Republican. If they embraced their left at least there would be more of a striking contrast between them and the crazy far right. This goes for President Obama too. He needs to stop waffling and come out strongly and solidly on each and every issue like the leader of the United States and not someone who took money from Wall St. and is still trying to appease them.
 
 
+15 # ritawalpoleague 2014-10-28 05:19
Agree with you I do, politicfix. Time we the sheeple woke up and jumped onboard the question asking, critical thinking train, and learned to recognize karlroving dirty trickery cons, i.e. panic promotion of ebola, with mess media waaaaaay over covering this could have been and should have been cured virus. Critical thinking fact: 1. govt. funding for med. research has been egregiously depleted for cures, and preventatives/v accines, such as a vaccine needed to prevent ebola spread in Africa and thereby rid the rest of us, across the globe, from this dreadful disease; 2. healthcare for all could have and should have been put into place via single payer m.o., in the early Oh Bomb Ah years, which would have insured mass vaccinations and cures being made available for all our populace, including those unemployed and way underemployed.

Had not the 1%ers (most certainly including the military-indust rial complex greed and need for power over all addicted bastards, along with the fossil 'fooler', oil biggies, bank CEO's and other 1% evil bastards) been allowed to complete their longtime coming coup d'état takeover of us/US, we could now be revered as the world's #1 nation in effective war on disease, finder of cancer cure(s), etc., rather than now being the #1 leader in endless war for $$$, and oil, oil, oil.

Yep, BAN POL. PUPPET CLOWNS from running and winning via election fraud we must. Period.
 
 
+4 # bingers 2014-10-30 05:46
And in Illinois the Republican candidate for governor made millions if dollars cheating nursing home residents and was busted for Medicare fraud and fined 13 million dollars, but both Chicago papers endorsed him.
 
 
+28 # strib10024 2014-10-27 22:14
The acccount here of Christi and Cuomo disease fighters extraordinaire (assholes), seems to seriously downplay the fool Cuomo is making of himself, so greedy for political status.
 
 
+10 # WBoardman 2014-10-28 08:03
strib10024 makes an excellent point,
Cuomo's performance was appallingly
stupid and not in the public interest.

But "downplay"?
Seems to me that Cuomo benefits by comparison to Christie,
who is pretty much worse in every way.
And de Blasio gives Cuomo cover –
out of the perceived and real necessity for having to
have a modus vivendi with the governor of his state.
He's kind of boxed in.

So if I downplayed Cuomo's shortcomings in all this,
what should I have included?
 
 
-9 # A_Har 2014-10-28 10:49
IMO you need to *get off the political end* of this and focus on the real problem of it hitting our healthcare system--the medical end of it. Otherwise you add to the confusion and obfuscation:

ER Doctor: What Scares Me Even More Than Ebola
October 25, 2014
http://www.linkedin.com/today/post/article/20141025024804-325275276-er-doctor-what-scares-me-even-more-than-ebola

"Today’s Ebola is tomorrow’s Spanish flu. We’ve had nearly a hundred years to get ready and the best we can come up with is plastic suits, double gloves, respirators, and masks. The battleground of this problem can’t be in the hospital. It is unwinnable in our emergency rooms.

I think I might just call in sick."

And

‘Thousands’ of US visas issued to residents in Ebola-stricken countries
Published time: October 02, 2014 03:33
Edited time: October 06, 2014 17:14
http://rt.com/usa/192380-ebola-residents-us-visas/

This disease is highly contageous and could rip our healthcare system to pieces. In Africa where people USED protective gear and clothing, many healthcare workers still got sick and DIED. People coming here who were infected have already exposed many others who are still within the incubation period. In some instances, the incubation for one in 20 people is not just 21 days but 42 days.

Ebola: WHO Cites Cases With Longer Incubation Period of 42 Days
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ebola-who-cites-cases-longer-incubation-period-42-days-1470326
 
 
+13 # WBoardman 2014-10-28 11:48
A_Har misses the point –
that ignorant and dishonest political posturing
is one of the more serious barriers
to having a healthy health care system

These panic mongers are often the same idiots who
have mindlessly embraced cutting government spending
on heathcare for the past decade,
while at the same time having no problem
with squandering billions – trillions – on useless wars.

A_Har's somewhat hysterical post seems intended
to feed panic more than enlighten the mind.
The ibtimes piece starts with the frightening and false
assumption that the Dallas nurse who flew has already
infected people.

That's NOT a fact. It's a remote possibility getting more
remote with every passing day. Remain calm.

The same article, asserting greater infectiousness than
medical professionals describes, provides a link in
apparent support of the claim – but the link goes
to a car ad, showing apparently healthy cars....

As for the linkedin article by an emergency room doctor
whose primary message is that his hospital is unprepared, which is no surprise, based on Dallas experience.

But it is also contradicted by the Bellevue experience.

And what A_Har omits is that this doctor says his hospital
would also be overwhelmed by an outbreak of flu.

Life is risky.
Don't panic.
Panic only makes things worse.
 
 
-9 # A_Har 2014-10-28 14:24
"And what A_Har omits is that this doctor says his hospital
would also be overwhelmed by an outbreak of flu."

And what you omitted relative to the doctor I quoted meant when he refered to the flu was the pandemic *SPANISH flu* which occured around WWI. He was not talking about the low level garden variety flu you seem to refer to.

1918 flu pandemic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1918_flu_pandemic

"The global mortality rate from the 1918/1919 pandemic is not known, but an estimated 10% to 20% of those who were infected died. With about a third of the world population infected, this case-fatality ratio means 3% to 6% of the entire global population died.[31] Influenza may have killed as many as 25 million people in its first 25 weeks. Older estimates say it killed 40–50 million people,[4] while current estimates say 50–100 million people worldwide were killed.[32]"

He was equating this to the Spanish Flu or worse. And it did indeed sound to me that he was saying his hospital and HIS ER was not prepared to deal with this.

Life is risky, but Americans are not prepared for the hard facts around something like this.
 
 
+4 # Depressionborn 2014-10-28 18:43
A_Har wrote:
"Life is risky, but Americans are not prepared for the hard facts around something like this."

It looks as if the army certainly is.
WASHINGTON — The military’s top brass has recommended that all American troops returning from the mission to combat Ebola in West Africa be quarantined, the Pentagon announced Tuesday.

Pentagon press secretary Rear Adm. John Kirby told reporters that Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel “shares the concerns by the chiefs about the safety and well-being not only of our troops but also of their families,” but has not yet made a decision about whether to approve the recommendation from the Joint Chiefs.

Hagel received the chiefs’ recommendation on Tuesday, shortly after Army leadership decided to isolate Maj. Gen. Darryl Williams and 10 other soldiers for three weeks to ensure they are not infected after spending time in Liberia, where they were participating in Operation United Assistance.

They and other soldiers arriving in Vicenza, Italy, will be allowed no physical contact with family members but will have access to telephones and the Internet, Army spokeswoman Lt. Col. Alayne Conway said.

Officials say the returning troops will work while in isolation,
 
 
+11 # Old4Poor 2014-10-28 13:16
This is hardly the first Ebola epidemic in Africa and there have been health care workers, etc., going back and forth often as well as visitors from the affected countries. Are we to believe that this is the first time one of these people was contaminated and became ill? Perhaps it just went undiagnosed or the people infected managed to recover. (some do)

What has made this a panic is the news hysteria and politics.
 
 
+1 # Depressionborn 2014-10-30 02:27
Quoting Old4Poor:
This is hardly the first Ebola epidemic in Africa and there have been health care workers, etc., going back and forth often as well as visitors from the affected countries. Are we to believe that this is the first time one of these people was contaminated and became ill? Perhaps it just went undiagnosed or the people infected managed to recover. (some do)

What has made this a panic is the news hysteria and politics.


panic reality:
The Philippines on Thursday urged hundreds of its citizens to leave Ebola-hit west African nations, as it announced anyone who returned would be placed under a 21-day quarantine. Foreign Affairs Secretary Albert del Rosario said the government had made a "voluntary repatriation" call to about 900 workers in Liberia, Guinea and Sierra Leone. He told a local television network that President Benigno Aquino III had also ordered those who did return would have to be isolated in a government facility. "The president has asked us to come down with a ruling, anyone coming from those countries, they must undergo ...???
 
 
0 # Old4Poor 2014-10-30 19:10
At present Ebola is not a danger in the US, and it may never be. If we want to protect the American public employers should be mandated to give paid sick leave to those ill with flu, especially those who work as cashiers at grocery stores or food servers in restaurants and also send home ill children from school. We lose many people to the flu every damn year. And, some of us are allergic to the shot and cannot protect ourselves that way.

The only person in the US to die from Ebola caught it in Africa, not here.
 
 
+11 # bmiluski 2014-10-28 14:17
At what point did you miss the fact that unlike the Spanish flu, ebola is NOT an air-borne disease.
Just like AIDS, this is a disease spreads only through the contact of a person who is not only infected but displaying severe symptoms of the disease. I really wish you people would do some research rather then spew that stupid fear-mongering vomit that your puppet master neo-cons spread on you.
 
 
-6 # A_Har 2014-10-28 14:40
Quoting bmiluski:
At what point did you miss the fact that unlike the Spanish flu, ebola is NOT an air-borne disease.
Just like AIDS, this is a disease spreads only through the contact of a person who is not only infected but displaying severe symptoms of the disease. I really wish you people would do some research rather then spew that stupid fear-mongering vomit that your puppet master neo-cons spread on you.


Actually, I have been researching this for SIX MONTHS since it was a story in Africa--Guinea, Liberia, and Sierra Leone. How about you? And the neocon label is a non sequitur and a slam some people slap onto those they simply do not agree with or as a way to hide the fact that they don't know much about the subject.

As to the transmission route, there is lots of debate on that:

Two Infectious Disease Experts Say Ebola In Its CURRENT Form Is ALREADY Spread By Aerosols

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/10/center-infectious-disease-research-policy-university-minnesota-ebola-may-become-airborne.html#aerosol

Please READ THE LINK.
 
 
+3 # keenon the truth 2014-10-29 03:16
I keep hearing everywhere that it is only infectious when the patient is displaying severe symptoms of the disease. I always find myself saying 'How do they know that?'
 
 
+1 # WBoardman 2014-10-29 09:09
The infectiousness of Ebola is known primarily
from more than a decade of experience
dealing with outbreaks.

Dpctors Without Borders has tracked 3,300
health workers with direct contact to Ebola patients,
of whom a total of 23 over the years have gotten Ebola.
Of those23, 20 were nationals who were apparently
exposed outside any health facility.

The US has been only minimally involved in
dealing with Ebola till this year, so it's no wonder
people thought they were prepared when they weren't
and others just hit the panic button.
 
 
-1 # A_Har 2014-11-04 17:03
It is interesting that you seem to know more about this than the scientists and researchers who study it.

U.S. scientists say uncertainties loom about Ebola's transmission, other key facts
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/11/04/us-health-ebola-usa-questions-idUSKBN0IO01Q20141104

By Sharon Begley

Mon Nov 3, 2014 7:37pm EST

"(Reuters) - Even as government officials express confidence that researchers know the key facts about Ebola, many questions crucial to preventing an outbreak in the United States remain unanswered, scientists told a workshop at the National Academy's Institute of Medicine in Washington on Monday.

Virtually all the unknowns have practical consequences, participants emphasized, making it foolish and perhaps dangerous to base policy on weak science.

For instance, virologists believe that Ebola is spread when people come in contact with the virus-laden bodily fluids of those who are already sick and then touch their eyes, nose or mouth, allowing the virus to pass through mucous membranes and enter the bloodstream.

But penetration through intact skin has not been definitively ruled out, said hemorrhagic-fev er expert Thomas Ksiarek of the University of Texas Medical Branch (UTMB), who co-led a session on Ebola's transmission routes...."

Your opinion is not FACT.
 
 
+13 # lewagner 2014-10-27 23:23
Everybody
Believes
Our
Lies
Again

Big Pharm is grinning. They have the remedies!!
 
 
+3 # Old4Poor 2014-10-28 23:48
More people die from overmedication or a bad reaction to an Rx than from Ebola in this country.

But, by all means, let us swallow more more more and somehow feel safe?
 
 
+20 # gdsharpe 2014-10-27 23:42
"... while Republicans with complete self-confidence march serenely in the wrong direction, trashing the [C]onstitution without even thinking about it. "
Well, its just a goddamn piece of paper anyway...
 
 
+5 # Depressionborn 2014-10-28 00:13
yes Christi is a jerk-but


Australia has suspended migration from Ebola-hit West African nations to try to prevent the virus from crossing its borders, as a teenager who arrived from Guinea tested negative for the disease.

Immigration minister, Scott Morrison, told parliament on Monday that the government had stopped issuing visas to people from those countries hit by the disease, which has killed close to 5,000 lives in its worst outbreak, with over 10,000 cases .

"These measures include temporarily suspending our immigration programme, including our humanitarian programme, from EVD (Ebola Virus Disease) affected countries," he said. "This means we are not processing any application from these affected countries."
 
 
+3 # bmiluski 2014-10-28 08:55
What's your point Depressionborn?
 
 
-2 # Depressionborn 2014-10-28 10:26
Quoting bmiluski:
What's your point Depressionborn?



Point is:
Even a jerk can be right. And sometimes if we insist on considering the source you might be wrong-and another jerk.
 
 
+9 # bmiluski 2014-10-28 14:20
Unfortunately, depressionborn, for the state of New Jersey........t hat jerk was wrong and not for the first time.
 
 
+7 # Depressionborn 2014-10-28 17:44
Quoting bmiluski:
Unfortunately, depressionborn, for the state of New Jersey........that jerk was wrong and not for the first time.


hope you're right bmiluski. You do seem to know a lot. Me, I don't know mulch, especially about communicable disease. I do know that health care pros are afraid of virus mutations. And politicking health issues may not be a good idea. Only a jerk would do it.
 
 
+22 # riverhouse 2014-10-28 04:44
Christie's handling of Ebola is just one of many reasons the intemperate Christie is unfit to be president or governor, for that matter. The main reason is that he is under criminal indictment on very serious charges and that is the principal reason he is unfit for public office.
 
 
+5 # WBoardman 2014-10-28 08:10
Riverhouse and politicfix (above) both say that
Chris Christie has been indicted.

Google comes up with no indictment that I can see,
but plenty of talk about how Christie should be indicted.

And it may happen.

But it hasn't yet, apparently – unless someone can cite
the prosecutor and charge, etc.
 
 
+13 # Nominae 2014-10-28 07:24
From the article: "When a reporter asked Governor Christie about the nurse in detention, according to the N.Y. Daily News, “Christie answered with his usual brio,” which is hard to distinguish from his usual callousness. What he said was: 'She’s not in the United [Airlines] lounge. I have no damn idea where she is, probably at Sbarro getting pizza.' ”

Yeah ....... shooting off his mouth like a pin-headed New Jersey Middle School "tough" is what passes for "Strength" in a leader of the Garden State.

Attempting to display "wit" when he *has* none is nothing but an embarrassment in any *other* State in the North East.
 
 
+10 # Skeeziks 2014-10-28 07:54
All Republicans think the same way as Christie thinks.
When they take over in Washington this year, we'll be going through a bunch of bad times...again.
 
 
+9 # cordleycoit 2014-10-28 09:21
We are facing having this son of Mussolini govern us or the more criminal of the Bushmen. Yet another choiceless choice.
 
 
-7 # A_Har 2014-10-28 09:56
Christi is a jerk, but you are wrong about the concern relative to Ebola. I have followed this story since April. This disease is NON TRIVAL, and we need to stop bringing people in from the effected countries. So far the response to the epidemic has been totally inadequate and it is not just "over there" anymore, it is HERE.

The Handling of this Ebola Crisis Is Like a Bad Horror Film
http://www.activistpost.com/2014/10/the-handling-of-this-ebola-crisis-is.html

"We hate to be the one to state the obvious (again), but how much more like a bad pandemic movie is this so-called “Ebola crisis” going to be allowed to get?

Yes. “Allowed.” The word was chosen carefully here. Why?"

Good read, I highly recommend it!
The incompetence by the so-called leadership is appalling.

Remember that just around 6 months ago, African countries got their first cases. A few months ago, Sierra Leone instituted a Cordon Sanitaire to try and stop the spread of this plague.

Using a Tactic Unseen in a Century, Countries Cordon Off Ebola-Racked Areas
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/13/science/using-a-tactic-unseen-in-a-century-countries-cordon-off-ebola-racked-areas.html?_r=0

Video--Gaping deficits in US healthcare preps for Ebola admissions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwzCeeaOues

Lastly this:
Some U.S. hospitals weigh withholding care to Ebola patients
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/22/us-health-ebola-usa-interventions-idUSKCN0IB2OM20141022
 
 
-6 # A_Har 2014-10-28 10:11
AND:

Why Protective Gear Isn’t Stopping Ebola

Even the best hazmat-suit manufacturers can’t guarantee protection against Ebola. Here’s why.

http://www.fastcodesign.com/3037465/why-protective-gear-isnt-stopping-ebola?partner=rss

And, we are being lied to by the CDC as to how contageous this is. It is not loony to apply caution in relation to this. This is a level 4 pathogen and there are actually only FOUR hospitals in the country totally geared up to handle it adequately: FOUR. Most hospitals are level 2. Our healthcare system could easily be overwhelmed.

This disease is not Democratic or Republican. It doesn't care about being politically correct--not one whit. It simply KILLS people and as mentioned it is highly contageous. It is not actually known with certainty when it becomes transmissible. But what is known is that the viral load is huge. The precautionary principle is a good idea regardless if it is being put out by a JERK. Granted the nurse mentioned needed to be treated a lot better.

A measured and wise approach is needed. We aren't getting either.
 
 
+9 # WBoardman 2014-10-28 11:23
A_Har takes my point exactly:
"A measured and wise approach is needed. We aren't getting either."

Measured and wise presumably means relying on
the people who know what they're doing,
such as Doctors Without Borders and others
who have direct experience.

Ebola is definitely "non-trivial," but it still kills fewer
people a year than flu (among other things)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/17/viruses-scarier-than-ebola_n_5683223.html

"Don't panic" is the sage advice in the "Hitchhiker's
Guide to the Galaxy," but the majority of Americans seem
to have a hard time not embracing panic, which is encouraged by unscrupulous politicians of both parties
((but most viciously Republicans) feeding public panic
for their own personal, political gain.

A-Har seems to write out of this very panic.
A_Har rejects accepted medical and scientific fact and
feeds the panic with the "highly contagious" claim.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/09/ebola-highly-contagious-virus-myths-outbreak-epidemic

Ebola is "highly contagious" only
under very specific conditions.

Imprisoning a healthy nurse makes no one safer – because
there was no risk to begin with – but it undermines
public health by feeding panic and ignorance.

What evidence is there that "we are being lied to by the CDC"
other than the paranoid ravings of dolts like Rush L. ?
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs103/en/

Remain calm.
 
 
-7 # A_Har 2014-10-28 11:46
It kills fewer people because it hasn't yet gotten going here. AND the people who are reporting from the CDC are lying to us. I am not "writing out of this very panic," I am writing from a *PUBLIC HEALTH PERSPECTIVE.*

The people at the top have a vested interest in "keeping calm" since so much of our economy is based on spending and the Christmas season is coming up. And, it is also true that a panic could be pretty bad for that with panic buying of supplies. However it also does not serve us to be told fairy tales.

No risk to begin with? The precautionary principle be damned? She went to Sierra Leone which instituted a Cordon Sanitarie a few months ago--the article on it was in the NY Times. She worked in a setting where many health care workers have DIED treating the sick. And for some individuals the incubation period is *42 days.* I posted on this in a number of posts--it might be good if you read them. They are still learning more about this disease and the jury is still out on how it works.

IMO the politics of all this is stupid and potentially deadly. It has been noted that a pandemic is just a plane ride away. Well, it arrived from Liberia the beginning of this month. Whether it gets as bad as is was in Africa depends on the response which has been so far--LESS THAN STELLAR. I suggest you talk directly to *health care workers* and see what they have to say.
 
 
+4 # WBoardman 2014-10-28 11:59
I'm sorry A_Har can't seem to remain calm.

What does panic look like:
"a pandemic is just a plane ride away"

Talk to health care workers?
Kaci Hickox is a start.
Carissa Guild is another: http://www.democracynow.org/2014/10/27/back_from_west_africa_a_us

IF the CDC is lying, which is always a possibility,
then H_Ar should be able to identify at least one lie.

The "precautionary principle" is based on the assumption that
it will protect us from imaginary as well as real risks.

Kaci Hickox presented an imaginary risk
about which Chris Christie lied.
Oh, but wait, politics don't matter....

Remain calm, be wise and measured.
 
 
+6 # WBoardman 2014-10-28 12:14
I wrote:
"IF the CDC is lying, which is always a possibility,
then H_Ar should be able to identify at least one lie."

Institute for Public Advocacy today headlines a post "CDC Finally Acknowledging Ebola Air Droplet Transmission; What's Next?"
and links to this:
http://anthraxvaccine.blogspot.com/

The CDC post is here: http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/pdf/infections-spread-by-air-or-droplets.pdf

The argument is relatively arcane without adding much
to a common sense understanding:
basically it comes down to "avoid people with Ebola"
which certainly makes sense

The Institute makes much of Dr Nass's rather temperate
critique of CDC and US hospitals.

And then there's this:
Nass adds: "There are a host of huge issues we should be dealing with, including: The slowness and sheer paltriness of the international response in Africa; the $60 plus billion that was supposed to be spent (since the anthrax letters in 2001) to get vaccines and drugs for 'Category A' threats including Ebola; the accidental release of viruses from labs and the intentional creation of more dangerous viruses at U.S. bioweapons labs, aka 'gain of function' research."

Remain calm, look for the big picture.
 
 
-10 # tahoevalleylines 2014-10-28 12:30
Mr. Boardman

The big picture is supposed to be encouraging?

When Ebola appears in Central America & Mexico? ISIL is already in the border gangs...
 
 
+10 # bmiluski 2014-10-28 14:36
Oh my sweet Jesus tahoevally..... ..is that what they're telling you now? Where the hell do they come up with this. I want what they're smoking or injecting because for the love of me and my liberal friends there is no way WE could ever come up with this shit.
 
 
+8 # WBoardman 2014-10-28 14:42
Quoting tahoevalleylines:

When Ebola appears in Central America & Mexico? ISIL is already in the border gangs...


Well, fear projection is one thing, reality another.

No Ebola in Central America.
No Ebola in Mexico.

Rightwing nut Michael Maloof tells World Net Daily
there's ISIS influence in border gangs and
Rick Perry seems to believe it, all of which is
clearly evidence of fear-mongering,
but not much else.
 
 
-6 # A_Har 2014-10-28 15:06
Not yet, but time will tell. Air travel makes it easy for it to jump continents.

It was an isolated disease in Africa in the past, and the big fear was that it would make it to populated cities, and it did. It has now spread to Mali in Africa.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/23/ebola-mali_n_6038026.html

And then there is the two possible incubation times of 21 days and alternatively 42 days. This is what the scientists are saying.

Ebola Cases Could Zoom to 10,000 a Week, WHO Warns
Oct 14, 2014, 10:19 AM ET
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/ebola-cases-zoom-10000-week-warns/story?id=26181200

It looks like it may go exponential.
 
 
+4 # WBoardman 2014-10-28 15:32
This is nothing but speculative fear-mongering.

Nigeria had Ebola and shut it down.
 
 
0 # A_Har 2014-10-29 10:25
Quoting WBoardman:
This is nothing but speculative fear-mongering.

Nigeria had Ebola and shut it down.


The Assistant director of the World Health Organization, Dr. Bruce Aylward, is quoted as saying that. I suppose he is then guilty of "speculative fear mongering"?

http://www.centralmaine.com/2014/10/14/who-10000-new-ebola-cases-per-week-could-be-seen/
 
 
+2 # WBoardman 2014-10-30 15:23
What Aylward says is a prediction – that is,
by definition, speculation.
Maybe he's right, but he has no way of knowing.

Whether Aylward is fear-mongering is a closer call.
Telling the truth may instill fear, but is not mongering.

Here we have speculation, which is at best not yet true.
Given the political context in which he spoke –
the limited response of the African Union –
there's a clear possibility that he WAS fear-mongering
with the reasonable political purpose of motivating
African countries to do more.

Central Maine News is CERTAINLY fear-mongering
with its headline – presumably intentionally, to boost
circulation. Near the end of the story there's news equally worth of a headline, also referring to Aylward:

“This is not a virus that’s easy to suppress or hide,” he said, noting that Ebola has not spread very much internationally . “I don’t expect this virus to just go anywhere. There is exit screening in place and sick people won’t be moving.”

Remaining calm, reading, thinking it through can be useful.
 
 
-2 # A_Har 2014-10-30 19:09
He is probably using the *RO numbers* I talked about at the end of this discussion as the basis for his predictions.
 
 
+5 # Old4Poor 2014-10-28 13:25
Another reason Ebola is hard to stop in Africa is that these are what we quaintly refer to as third-world countries, meaning a lack of proper sanitation, clean water, and less frequent hand washing. Ebola will never have epidemic proportions in the US as while Americans are not so clean as Scandinavians (See hospital infection rates) we are better than most.

Simply wash your hands when you go to the bathroom, etc.
 
 
-4 # A_Har 2014-10-28 12:53
Actually I am quite calm. Knowing what the truth is does not disturb me, and I am fine with changing my POV when new facts present themselves. I do like knowing the facts--that helps me to make a better judgement. However, it seems to panic you if someone challenges your basic premise?

"The "precautionary principle" is based on the assumption that it will protect us from imaginary as well as real risks."

I would call that a minimization.

Politics do matter when they present a hurdle to doing what is best for public health. Issuing 13,000 visa from the pandemic zones, while it may be Politically Correct, doesn't look like a very good policy to me.
http://rt.com/usa/192380-ebola-residents-us-visas/

And make no mistake, I am quite liberal although not a DEM. I am also a hard core realist. I think Christi is a sleezebag, but then I do not hold *any politician* in high esteem.
 
 
+7 # bmiluski 2014-10-28 14:41
A-Har......you do realize that there have been people coming and going on a daily basis to the ebola infected regions for the past year. There are a lot of people that have been there and back yet, we have had 3 people with ebola here.
And please don't say that there have been more infected people but we just don't know about them because that would disprove your theory that it is an easy transmitted disease. If that were so, then there should be hundreds of infected people, just as there were in the early stages of the AIDS epidemic.
 
 
+3 # Depressionborn 2014-10-29 03:11
Quoting bmiluski:
A-Har......you do realize that there have been people coming and going on a daily basis to the ebola infected regions for the past year. There are a lot of people that have been there and back yet, we have had 3 people with ebola here.
And please don't say that there have been more infected people but we just don't know about them because that would disprove your theory that it is an easy transmitted disease. If that were so, then there should be hundreds of infected people, just as there were in the early stages of the AIDS epidemic.


bmiluski might be right. There appears to be fewer new victims. (Firestone in Africa stopped Ebola at the border.) Good info seems hard to get.
 
 
-1 # A_Har 2014-10-29 09:02
This epidemic started in Africa around last December. It became more visible around March of this year. Granted air travel in the early stages from the effected countries was probably less of a concern, but in last few months infection rates have gone up--way up. That being the case, the longer the epidemic rages, the higher the risk is that it will travel to first world countries by air travel. There is a time condition involved--the more out of control it gets in the hot zone countries, the more of a threat it becomes to the world at large. Obama himself has stated this in news broadcasts--tha t the world becomes more at risk the longer it is that the epidemic in Africa continues.

See How Ebola’s Spread Compares to Other Deadly Outbreaks
http://time.com/3490415/ebola-sars-mers-marburg/

And the theory that it is easily spreadable is not mine but it is held by scientists who dispute the CDCs notion that it is not. You can find those stories if you look.
 
 
+2 # Depressionborn 2014-10-30 13:51
my goodness!

After months of near-futile battle with Ebola, a World Health Organization official said a glimmer of hope is beginning to emerge in the worst-affected country, Liberia.

The West African country has recorded 6,535 cases, almost half of the 13,703 total reported in the current outbreak. But Dr. Bruce Aylward, WHO’s assistant director-genera l, on Wednesday said the infection rate appears to be falling "and there may indeed be a slowing of the epidemic there."

Aylward said Liberia's caseload may be dropping by as much as 25 percent a week. However, he added, "This is no time to let up
 
 
+1 # WBoardman 2014-10-30 15:25
Here's another Aylward quote that bends against
fear-mongering:

“This is not a virus that’s easy to suppress or hide,” he said, noting that Ebola has not spread very much internationally . “I don’t expect this virus to just go anywhere. There is exit screening in place and sick people won’t be moving.”
 
 
0 # A_Har 2014-10-29 15:10
Quoting WBoardman:
I'm sorry A_Har can't seem to remain calm.

What does panic look like:
"a pandemic is just a plane ride away"


Epidemiologists have been saying this for years. It is simply a fact of life of our interconnected world.
Bird-FLU Pandemic Just 'Plane Ride Away'
Dated August 2005
http://www.medicineonline.com/news/12/1374/Bird-FLU-Pandemic-Just-Plane-Ride-Away.html

The more you post, the more it becomes obvious to me that you did not research this disease or its course before you wrote this article. Perhaps you will in the future--that would be an improvement.

Quoting WBoardman:

Talk to health care workers?
Kaci Hickox is a start.
Carissa Guild is another: http://www.democracynow.org/2014/10/27/back_from_west_africa_a_us

IF the CDC is lying, which is always a possibility,
then H_Ar should be able to identify at least one lie.

The "precautionary principle" is based on the assumption that
it will protect us from imaginary as well as real risks.

Kaci Hickox presented an imaginary risk
about which Chris Christie lied.
Oh, but wait, politics don't matter....

Remain calm, be wise and measured.


I am calm when I have the facts. I have talked to health care workers, and they don't all agree; it depends on their specific setting. A couple of EMTs I talked to are not very happy about this as well as a nurse who is very concerned about what she sees as misinformation coming from the CDC.
 
 
0 # A_Har 2014-10-29 16:27
Research...rese arch is a good idea:

From the Washington Post:

National Nurses United says most hospitals are not prepared for Ebola
By DeNeen L. Brown October 12

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/10/12/national-nurses-united-says-most-hospitals-are-not-prepared-for-ebola/

"National Nurses United, the largest union of registered nurses in the country, said that more than 80 percent of nurses the union surveyed report they have not been given adequate training on Ebola.

Thirty-six percent say their hospitals do not have sufficient supplies — including face shields and fluid-resistant gowns — to care for an Ebola patient, according the report by National Nurses United, which surveyed more than 1,900 nurses in more than 750 facilities in 46 states."
 
 
-1 # WBoardman 2014-10-30 09:26
This is what subtle fear-mongering looks like.
Thanks again, A_Har

This "news" is well-known to anyone who followed
the developments in Dallas.
Rachel Maddow even did a freaked-out report
about the 9 beds the US has that are available
for treatment of Ebola patients.
At the time, 5 were in use, now fewer.

National Nurses United were brave whistleblowers,
calling attention to conditions overpaid
hospital administrators were hiding or denying.

More useful thn A_Har's Oct 12 scare story would be
a more recent account of improvements, if any.
 
 
-2 # A_Har 2014-10-30 15:31
Isn't it the JOB of the fourth estate to report on such things so that action can be taken to mitigate the shortcomings? How is that fear mongering? I would guess that the story did help the nurses who took the poll and it may have gotten the hospitals to fill in some gaps. So how is that a "scare story."

If you worked as a journalist....w asn't that kind of reporting your job?

And, in any health care setting such things take time to implement. Some hospitals are better than others.

I have a friend who is a nurse and she told me she and her co-workers have been trained with PPE and on how to treat ebola patients. I was glad to hear it. I just hope her hospital can handle a level 4 biohazard disease. Most hospitals are level 2.

"Rachel Maddow even did a freaked-out report
about the 9 beds the US has that are available
for treatment of Ebola patients.
At the time, 5 were in use, now fewer."

Well, I suppose that is good to hear, but 9 beds for the whole country for a level 4 disease?
 
 
0 # WBoardman 2014-10-30 15:27
Equating Ebola with Bird-Flu, even metaphorically,
makes no sense.

Ad hominem comments are not an argument.
 
 
-3 # A_Har 2014-10-30 18:28
Quoting WBoardman:
Equating Ebola with Bird-Flu, even metaphorically,
makes no sense.

Ad hominem comments are not an argument.


*Both are level 4 biosafety diseases* for which there is NO CURE. It certainly does make sense to epidemiologists ....Bird flu, Marburg virus, Ebola, SARS: all of them are level 4 biosafety diseases. It looks like you have no knowledge of these things at all. You need to read some books about it--seriously! Maybe I even did manage to get you to think about it....just maybe?

Here is a good one:
Spillover: Animal Infections and the Next Human Pandemic
http://www.amazon.com/Spillover-Animal-Infections-Human-Pandemic/dp/0393346617/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1414715622&sr=8-1&keywords=spillover

Very interesting but perhaps just a little bit dry compared with the next one.

I loved Zissner's Rats, Lice and History which you can find online. It was written in the 1930s

http://mdbooksfree.blogspot.com/2011/07/rats-lice-and-history-free.html

And there is also the book the Hot Zone which I have not read.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Hot-Zone-Terrifying-Origins/dp/0385479565/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1414715891&sr=8-1&keywords=the+hot+zone

As to the Ad hominem count, you have loaded up this discussion with more of them against me than I can count. It gets very tiresome.
 
 
-3 # A_Har 2014-10-30 19:45
Quoting WBoardman:
Equating Ebola with Bird-Flu, even metaphorically,
makes no sense.

Ad hominem comments are not an argument.


Is this what you consider to be an "Ad hominem"?

"The more you post, the more it becomes obvious to me that you did not research this disease or its course before you wrote this article. Perhaps you will in the future--that would be an improvement."

LOOK, if you knew that the bird flu and ebola were level 4 biosafety diseases, you would NOT have said this. I have known for some time that there are several level 4 biosafety diseases that have pandemic potential and could fly anywhere in the world. Therefore this comment made it clear to me that *you did not know* and that you are just beginning to even consider it.

Let's get real here and *be honest.* Stop slamming me for what I know as FACT. Stop accusing me of "Ad hominem" under false pretenses.

Look it up before you post something if you do not know.
 
 
+6 # lfeuille 2014-10-28 16:17
Quoting A_Har:
It kills fewer people because it hasn't yet gotten going here. AND the people who are reporting from the CDC are lying to us. I am not "writing out of this very panic," I am writing from a *PUBLIC HEALTH PERSPECTIVE.*

The people at the top have a vested interest in "keeping calm" since so much of our economy is based on spending and the Christmas season is coming up. And, it is also true that a panic could be pretty bad for that with panic buying of supplies. However it also does not serve us to be told fairy tales.

some individuals the incubation period is *42 days.* I posted on this in a number of posts--it might be good if you read them. They are still learning more about this disease and the jury is still out on how it works.

IMO the politics of all this is stupid and potentially deadly. It has been noted that a pandemic is just a plane ride away. Well, it arrived from Liberia the beginning of this month. Whether it gets as bad as is was in Africa depends on the response which has been so far--LESS THAN STELLAR. I suggest you talk directly to *health care workers* and see what they have to say.


Gees, Nigeria managed to contain it. It is now ebola free with only 20 cases. If they can do it we can. I know the US healthcare system is a mess, but it is at least up to the standards of Nigeria.
 
 
0 # A_Har 2014-10-29 09:36
Quoting lfeuille:
Gees, Nigeria managed to contain it. It is now ebola free with only 20 cases. If they can do it we can. I know the US healthcare system is a mess, but it is at least up to the standards of Nigeria.


And, how did they do that?

Nigeria contains Ebola – and US officials want to know more
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Africa/2014/1006/Nigeria-contains-Ebola-and-US-officials-want-to-know-more

They did a good job of it.

Look how they handled it here with the first case:

The Handling of this Ebola Crisis Is Like a Bad Horror Film
http://www.activistpost.com/2014/10/the-handling-of-this-ebola-crisis-is.html

If you read the second article, do you feel reassured?

How about that situation where they sprayed Duncan's vomit off the sidewalk without securing the area and not wearing ANY protective gear?

Is noting *those facts* fearmongering, or simply bearing witness to full on incompetence?
 
 
-5 # A_Har 2014-10-28 12:25
Quoting WBoardman:
What evidence is there that "we are being lied to by the CDC"
other than the paranoid ravings of dolts like Rush L. ?
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs103/en/

Remain calm.


Ask the *scientists, doctors, nurses, and EMT personnel* how we are being lied to and how adequate the response is. Forget about Lush Rimjob. As to the nurse--she was directly exposed to the "very specific conditions" including dealing with blood and body fluids of the sick ebola patients if she worked with Doctors Without Borders in Sierra Leone.

A top scientist worries that Ebola has mutated to become more contagious
http://www.vox.com/2014/10/13/6959087/ebola-outbreak-virus-mutated-airborne

Ebola is known to be contageous through sexual transmission for up to 60 days even after someone has recovered.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/10/09/ebola-virus-condoms-sexual-transmission/16960093/

Read about how it is going in the hot zone countries for the past 6 months. It is not just all about here; it is not just about our politics. And, anyone posting here can do their own research and find out for themselves. IMO that is the best policy. LOOK it up. I do not take anything for granted, and politicians lie.
 
 
+5 # Old4Poor 2014-10-28 13:27
And I am certain that if she becomes symptomatic she will report in. She is not contagious unless and until that time occurs.
 
 
-6 # A_Har 2014-10-28 13:45
Quoting Old4Poor:
And I am certain that if she becomes symptomatic she will report in. She is not contagious unless and until that time occurs.


Nobel Prize Winner for Medicine: People Without Symptoms Or Fever May Still Spread Ebola

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/10/doctor-won-nobel-prize-work-immune-system-people-without-symptoms-fever-may-still-ebola.html

13% of Ebola Victims In West Africa Never Had a Fever
Posted on October 20, 2014

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/10/13-ebola-victims-west-africa-never-fever.html

"So far, the CDC and National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Disease have been wrong about virtually everything concerning this Ebola outbreak."
 
 
+1 # Old4Poor 2014-10-29 23:52
Have you (or anyone else) ever been infected with AIDS from someone with it who sneezed near you? What about cancer? Or heart disease? Diseases may mutate all the time, such as we know the flu does, but I have never heard of one altering its delivery system.

I realize that fear gives some people a high and they seek excuses to be scared, but please stop trying to inflict it on everyone else.
 
 
0 # A_Har 2014-10-30 15:54
I am not trying to inflict anything on anyone. My premise is that the antidote to fear is to *take action* and demand that public health standards for PREVENTION be implemented regardless of whether they are politically correct or popular.

I figure if that is done, my life and yours too will be better, and it may be possible to stop this thing before it kills people here. And, a part of that would simply be if the public is accurately informed. If the officials would demonstrate that they are working to keep this at bay, I would guess the public might just cooperate and feel reassured? That would be an antidote to panic.
 
 
-4 # A_Har 2014-10-28 13:48
I said this: "Ask the *scientists, doctors, nurses, and EMT personnel* how we are being lied to and how adequate the response is. Forget about Lush Rimjob......And , anyone posting here can do their own research and find out for themselves. IMO that is the best policy. LOOK it up."

And I got dinged for that? Ridiculous and sadly hilarous!!
 
 
+3 # WBoardman 2014-10-28 15:04
Asked for evidence that the CDC is lying,
A_Har responds with

(1) speculation on Ebola mutation –
by a PhD with a government agency
the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases
(no apparent reference to CDC)

and

(2) a USA Today story about semen contagion
that is based on a CDC announcement.

In other words, NO evidence CDC is lying.

Then A_Har panic mongers a new fear
about hot zone countries with no evidentiary support.

One begins to wonder if A_Har is a troll?
 
 
-4 # A_Har 2014-10-28 16:06
No, I am not a troll, *I simply do not agree with you.* I suppose you might think that makes me a troll?

Like I said, I have been onto this long before it broke in the USA press and I was concerned about it even then. I do believe firmly in the precautionary principle, and I have had an interest in pandemics for over 40 years. I started reading about them in high school when I read Zissner's Rat's, Lice, and History. More recently I read Spillover:
http://www.amazon.com/Spillover-Animal-Infections-Human-Pandemic/dp/0393346617/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1414533903&sr=8-1&keywords=spillover

The course of epidemics is a matter of HISTORY.

You keep saying the links I post are speculation and fear mongering. I say that all what is discussed here is also *your speculation* in your posts. You are far more trusting of officaldom than I am. We do not yet know what direction this will take. A warriors stance is to take this very seriously and go out and meet the trouble with what is needed to keep it from becoming far far worse; that is really the point of what I bring up. It is about prevention. That is what the mandate of Dr. Osterholm and other public health officials IS. I do not see an adequate response in the news reports.

And, the international response has been lame at best. The effected countries have not gotten anywhere near the kind of support from anywhere that they need to deal with this epidemic.
 
 
+5 # lfeuille 2014-10-28 16:26
[quote name="A_Har"][q uote name="WBoardman "]What evidence is there that "we are being lied to by the CDC"
other than the paranoid ravings of dolts like Rush L. ?
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs103/en/

It's not the CDC that was lying about the level of preparedness at most hospitals, it was the asshole hospital administrators that assured the CDC that they were ready without bothering to talk to the nurses. But, the mistakes in Texas served as a lesson to others. New York was much better prepared.
 
 
+8 # bmiluski 2014-10-28 14:23
Because A-har........ju st the wearing of the suit doesn't prevent the body fluids from landing on the medical personal. How you remove the suit is also critical especially if you're covered with vomit and diarrhea.
Please, please, please, stop visiting those right wingie sites and start reading something based in reality.
 
 
-3 # A_Har 2014-10-28 15:25
Quoting bmiluski:
Because A-har........just the wearing of the suit doesn't prevent the body fluids from landing on the medical personal. How you remove the suit is also critical especially if you're covered with vomit and diarrhea.
Please, please, please, stop visiting those right wingie sites and start reading something based in reality.


Yes, I know that the proceedure for taking off the PPE is critical.

So are sites I linked to that you don't agree with "right wing sites?" Is the WHO a "right wing" site, or Huffington Post? How about the video of Dr. Osterholm posted on Zero Hedge? Is he the mouthpiece for the neocon "lords"?

I have had a bellyful of this crap over time. Reality is often not pretty so you have to face it straight up. All of our politics are toxic as hell from both parties and their grandstanding. Playing the partisan game makes you lose IQ points in my book.

If I am wrong about this--that would be fine. I keep saying the scientists are still not sure about how it is transmitted. The disease is mutating at a very fast clip. It is not the same virus today as it was even a month ago. There have been over 300+ mutations.
http://www.businessinsider.com/ebola-mutations-change-virus-2014-10

It is not standing still.
 
 
+4 # WBoardman 2014-10-28 15:46
A_Har goes ad hominem, which is not an argument,
but also says:" There have been over 300+ mutations"

"Mutations" is a scare word.
But mutations can be good or bad.
Business Insider hypes the story, unfortunately.
But at least it links to what scientists actually say,
which lacks the fear-mongering tone: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/345/6202/1369.full

From the end of the paper:
"As in every EVD outbreak, the 2014 EBOV variant carries a number of genetic changes distinct to this lineage; our data do not address whether these differences are related to the severity of the outbreak. However, the catalog of 395 mutations, including 50 fixed nonsynonymous changes with 8 at positions with high levels of conservation across ebolaviruses, provides a starting point for such studies (table S4)."

"It is not standing still," writes A_Har with
doom-laden portent.
Of course none of us is standing still, which is
mostly a good thing.

Keep moving, and studying, but remain calm.
 
 
-2 # A_Har 2014-10-28 16:50
I was accused of going to right wing sites relative to the information I posted--I would call *that* an ad hominem. Am I not supposed to respond to that? And I had that charge leveled against me in other places along with people calling me a neocon because I did not tow the party line and bow down to certain political precepts they worshiped. I won't put up with it here.

I have been onto the issue of epidemics for a long time.

""Mutations" is a scare word."

It may be to you? It simply happens regularly in nature. With this virus, I read that it may make it more adaptable and/or virulent; this is not known yet. Those are the facts. If you find them scary or not--that is up to you.
 
 
0 # Depressionborn 2014-10-29 13:02
Quoting bmiluski:
Because A-har........just the wearing of the suit doesn't prevent the body fluids from landing on the medical personal. How you remove the suit is also critical especially if you're covered with vomit and diarrhea.
Please, please, please, stop visiting those right wingie sites and start reading something based in reality.



bmiluski please list the right wingie sites that bother you so I don't miss any. And what is it that us right wing nuts believe that you feel are wrong, or would do harm? What harm?

just curious
 
 
0 # bmiluski 2014-10-29 14:23
How about.......Doc tor: NYC case shows Ebola could transmit by air
This was the headline the WND(WorldNetDaily).
......"that the virus can be transmitted to humans when a patient self-aerosolize s, or vaporizes, it with a strong projection from the body" is what it meant. However, the headline was written in such a way as to make us believe that just breathing would spread the ebola virus onto other people.
 
 
+1 # A_Har 2014-10-29 15:33
Quoting bmiluski:
How about.......Doctor: NYC case shows Ebola could transmit by air
This was the headline the WND(WorldNetDaily).
......"that the virus can be transmitted to humans when a patient self-aerosolizes, or vaporizes, it with a strong projection from the body" is what it meant. However, the headline was written in such a way as to make us believe that just breathing would spread the ebola virus onto other people.


Well, you can fact check it against other sites....like this one:
Ebola Believed To Be Potentially Airborne, Researchers Claim
October 15. 2014

http://www.inquisitr.com/1541821/ebola-is-airborne-university-of-minnesota-cidrap-researchers-claim/

"An excerpt from the report — submitted to CIDRAP by the authors, “who are national experts on respiratory protection and infectious disease transmission” — reads, “Healthcare workers play a very important role in the successful containment of outbreaks of infectious diseases like Ebola. The correct type and level of personal protective equipment (PPE) ensures that healthcare workers remain healthy throughout an outbreak—and with the current rapidly expanding Ebola outbreak in West Africa, it’s imperative to favor more conservative measures.”

The report goes on to note that any action which can be taken to “reduce risk” of Ebola exposure should not wait until a “scientific certainty” develops."

As noted, the debate goes on.
 
 
+1 # Depressionborn 2014-10-29 18:53
Quoting bmiluski:
How about.......Doctor: NYC case shows Ebola could transmit by air
This was the headline the WND(WorldNetDaily).
......"that the virus can be transmitted to humans when a patient self-aerosolizes, or vaporizes, it with a strong projection from the body" is what it meant. However, the headline was written in such a way as to make us believe that just breathing would spread the ebola virus onto other people.


Much thanks bmiluski. WND looks good.

Are they the ones that cost Al Gore the presidency? (unexpected loss of Tenn)
 
 
0 # WBoardman 2014-10-30 13:58
The problem with people like A_Har is that
they take the speculative and
make it sound inevitable.

Also the basic logical fallacy of argumentum ab auctoritate–
argument from authority or appeal to authority,
which is a fancy form of hearsay. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

Of course authoritative probably have a higher likelihood
of being correct than other sources, but that's only
helpful to an argument, not the end of it.

There is a book titled "The Experts" –
it entire content over several hundred pages
is authoritative statements about Viet-Nam.
 
 
-3 # A_Har 2014-10-30 15:12
What has happened in Africa is NOT a speculation, and when people in public health including the WHO are alarmed about this disease and warn that it needs very meticulous and vigilant action to be taken to avoid its spread (incuding accurate reporting)...ho w is that a logical fallacy? I guess we are not supposed to pay attention to what our medical personnel are telling us about this level 4 biohazard?

It is not inevitable if such public health protocols are strictly adhered to. I keep saying this over and over. That is fundamental to prevention.

The point is to carry out that kind of action here in first world countries including the USA so that we do not suffer the same scenario that Africa faces right now where they are losing control of it. Containment is of the utmost importance, and it would be easier to contain if people from the countries where the epidemic is raging *were not coming here* or if they are their health is tightly monitored the way they did in Nigeria.

And what does Vietnam have to do with this?
 
 
+9 # Skeeziks 2014-10-28 10:07
One more thing. When Republicans confront problems, they most always, always shoot from the hip.
Very seldom do they take careful aim.

The Iraq war is another example that really stands out in my mind..
 
 
0 # Depressionborn 2014-10-28 10:30
Iraq wasn't a problem, it was a mistake. And are suggesting good democrats use shotguns? Really?
 
 
+10 # CAMUS1111 2014-10-28 10:30
Christie is too much of a bully to be in public office, so I suggest he be impeached and when removed from office he can move on to what he so clearly is suited for: fitness instructor and medical advisor...
 
 
-9 # arquebus 2014-10-28 11:50
I wonder what the result of a poll would have been on the day Christie declared a quarantine. My guess is the majority of people, in an ignorant panic, would have wanted a quarantine. Isn't it the job of any elected official to try to give the people what they want. After all he represents them.

As to the whole bridge fiasco....looks to me like some state attorney and political foes of Christie have way too much time on their hands. They took the equivalent of a frat prank and made a federal case out of it. Good lord, the "terrible" traffic jam those people endured looked pretty much like what people endure daily on the San Diego Freeway through Sepulveda Pass. NBD.
 
 
+8 # Old4Poor 2014-10-28 13:33
The role of any public official is to work for the common good, not to serve the will of the majority. We have all kinds of safeguards in this system to protect the rights of the minority from the will of the majority.
 
 
+6 # WBoardman 2014-10-28 15:10
Old4Poor makes an important point.

The Christie-Cuomo panic team ran roughshod
over the constitution in their rush to be perceived
by the uninformed as "doing something"

They abused their authority to act in the interest
of the public health, accomplishing nothing useful, but
helping to spike the already damaging irrational panic
over Ebola (see A_Har posts)
 
 
-2 # A_Har 2014-10-28 13:10
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-10-20/top-scientist-warns-version-ebola-looks-very-different-bug

From Zero Hedge with many good links including a video of Michael Osterholm:

"The head of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota – Dr. Michael Osterholm – is a prominent public health scientist and a nationally recognized biosecurity expert.

Dr. Osterholm just gave a talk shown on C-Span explaining that a top Ebola virologist – the Head of Special Pathogens at Canada’s health agency, Gary Kobinger – has found that the current strain of Ebola appears to be much worse than any strain seen before … and that the current virus may be more likely to spread through aerosols than strains which scientists have previously encountered."

Video at link is 22 minutes long and well worth watching.

Zero Hedge is really onto this story.
 
 
+1 # WBoardman 2014-10-28 15:28
A_Har cites a new host for the same news virus
he previously cited on vox for the zero hedge story.

One PhD's speculation could turn out to be correct,
to be sure.

For now it's been presented only as unsupported
speculation, which is a far cry from science.

The Osterholm story is also speculative fear-mongering,
as Osterholm says:"It's the single greatest concern I've ever had in my 40-year public health career"

A "concern" can inspire A_Har and others to irrational fear,
but it's different from a reality.

What Kobinger speculated on in 2012 was disputed in Science News of August 6, 2014
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/airborne-transmission-ebola-unlikely-monkey-study-shows

Even trolls need to remain calm, dispassionate, detached –
even wise and measured.
 
 
-2 # A_Har 2014-10-28 16:16
I cited Zero Hedge because it had more links in it relative to the issue than the first link I posted. All science starts as speculation which is then tested and proven or disproven. It is not wrong to pose the question in the first place in order to find out and test the hypothesis.

A "concern" can also inspire preventative action and keep people from taking dangerous risks. That is the idea. Quarantines have been used in this manner for hundreds of years, and they do work. Granted they are a blunt instrument, but sometimes they are all that works. Currently there is no cure for this illnes and the mortality rate is very high--in Africa it is over 50%. What is so odd about the idea of not exposing people to such risk in the first place?

As to the airborne transmission--t hat debate has been going on for a few months. In the meantime, and until it is definitively known, we need to keep from spreading this very dangerous disease where the mortality rate is in excess of 50%.
 
 
+5 # Shapleigh 2014-10-28 23:30
I'm amazed as your resilience in sticking up for your viewpoint in the face of immense criticism, all of the same bias.

I like the commentary on RSN, but there never seems to be much thoughtfulness, only angry opinions. This is not the best way to resolve problems and reminds me of the dysfunction in DC. In DC no one really wants to listen to the other guy, they only want to loudly state their personal opinion. They use terms like "hysterical, wingnut, job killer, racist, stupid etc., all of which divide us from one another.

You don't change opinion by demonizing the person who has a differing opinion, you only entrenched their current perspective. The Vietnam war was brought to an end not by the radical left, though I give them credit for starting the discourse, but by the people in the middle talking to one another and finding they shared similar feelings on the conflict.

RSN should not become a forum of "preaching to the choir" or it will accomplish little in the way of very change it wants to bring about.
 
 
-1 # bmiluski 2014-10-29 09:26
Shapleigh....I understand what you are saying but you have to understand that after you've tried to reason with someone, tried to present them with facts, get no response to those facts but the constant repeating of lies and misinformation you .... just .... lose...it.
I've checked out some of the conservative sites and....WOW....t alk about vitrol. It makes the comments on this sight look like baby food.
So, if we liberals get a little hot, please be a little patient with us.
 
 
0 # A_Har 2014-10-29 10:41
I did not POST information from any "conservative sites."

And, I tried to reason with you about the public health aspect of this thing, but you have a total partisan view. Christi is not fit to be governor or president--that was true before this event occured; he is venal and corrupt to the core. He might be OK as the DOGCATCHER?

However, Even a half competent dog catcher might? recognise the threat that rabies poses....just maybe?

The fact that this is being framed all in politics instead of a public health issue turns it to poison. Right (and Left) there creates more problems than it solves.
 
 
0 # bmiluski 2014-10-29 09:22
A-har........Yo u still haven't addressed the fact that hundreds of people that had traveled to Ebola infected areas have been coming into the US since last December. And according to your panic-mongering we should have a full-blown epidemic here and yet............ three people????
 
 
0 # A_Har 2014-10-29 11:09
I did address it. I said that AS THE EPIDEMIC grows LARGER, the RISKS of transmission through air travel to other countries outside of Africa becomes higher. Evidence for that is the recent infection and death of Mr. Duncan in Dallas. Did you not see that story?

Look at the RO numbers--reprod uction numbers--this is a very big concern. And, Laurie Garret from Foreign Policy talks about these numbers in this article:
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/09/05/we_could_have_stopped_this_ebola_virus_world_health_organization

Remember that a few months ago in Africa *they only had three cases* too. What happened there did not happen overnight. I keep talking about *prevention* and people scream at me that I am "fear mongering." What I propose is a far better response from our officials and that they take action to stop this thing before it gets any traction so far all I see is minimization and incompetence. That will cause this thing to spread.

They got a grip on this in Nigeria. In my view they are softpedaling it here. I do not trust they have a handle on it.

The Handling of this Ebola Crisis Is Like a Bad Horror Film
http://www.activistpost.com/2014/10/the-handling-of-this-ebola-crisis-is.html

A couple of months ago in Liberia, people thought ebola was a hoax--not a problem! They too thought that concern around the epidemic was fearmongering.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XasTcDsDfMg

Yeah....and how did that work out for them?
 
 
+1 # A_Har 2014-10-29 11:26
As to the great confidence held here in the official response, check this: "We're Screwed" Major Garrett open mic briefing U.S.response to Ebola Outbreak Oct 3 2014

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NTSU9w6uNc

Very very short video--1 minute 35 seconds.
 
 
+9 # cymricmorty 2014-10-28 14:26
I'm not even worried about Ebola. I'm more worried about wending my way through an ill-informed/mi sinformed/under informed country in hysterics because the sky is falling. Just look at this hijacked comments section.
 
 
+7 # Passing Through 2014-10-28 16:56
Thank you.
 
 
+3 # RICHARDKANEpa 2014-10-28 17:11
Something weird and primeval is going on. Our ancestress slept around a fire for a million years and had an instructional fear of dangerous snakes and spiders that didn't run from fire.

Recorded in Middle Ages but probably existing from the cave was a dread of lepers.

I rinsed a wire filter to prevent hair from clogging my bathtub by putting my hand in the toilet and rinsing around and for months when my acquaintance came over he insisted on paper plates and plastic ware and me washing my hands several times an hour. Obama's domestic Ebolaphobia is much less than Chris Christie's but since the latest cases in the US with rapid response is less then two weeks sick, what's the big deal over here, unless some powerful big shot is paranoid of anyone finding out like in Liberia, and might overwhelm rapid response.

However,everyone back from western central Africa has a one in the million fear of getting a friend hurt and their friends have some nagging dread of them. So everyone create nice hotel space in designated airports with anyone without a fever allowed to leave with an embedded thermometer that transmits readings and an escort or two with cameras to be able to alert only a few people who got too close too a later victim. If instead we want to fight this instinctual phobia, let's dine at a sparkling clean public bathroom and drink our wine from the toilet bowl.
 
 
+6 # fredboy 2014-10-28 20:05
Christie is just a rich kid bully who never met his match. After finally learning to face off with this type as a young teen, I focused on the fighting arts and even began seeking them out--often in defense of their helpless victims.

Wish I'd met Christie. I am 66, but would love to get in the ring with him now. The ring clarifies everything. No more talking. How about it, Christie?
 
 
+4 # DickC 2014-10-28 23:29
Christie is proof that the Mob has long ago taken over New Jersey. Only the Mob can be so damn ignorant as Christie shows.
 
 
+4 # Old4Poor 2014-10-28 23:44
Even though I disagree with some of you, I appreciate that so many are returning to answer responses instead of the usual hit and run that passes for discourse.
 
 
+3 # RDenner 2014-10-29 19:01
Probably late to the party as usual.. I agree with the author of this piece, that Governor Christie is a bully and hides behind the facade of being a moderate and being in the middle between President Obama and the Tea Party hoards. He is worse than both.

That being said, even a broken clock is right twice a day.. His base response to the "growing" threat of Ebola in the 1st world is correct.

I put growing in quotes because it is not yet a threat to the US or the first world. But the same could have been said of Guinea in December of 2013 when a single child unknowingly contracted this dread disease and passed it to it's mother and care provider before she died. That care provider went on to pass it to possibly dozens of others as the mother died and spread it to those in her village...

This disease is not only spread by direct contact and close quarters aerosol(spit, sneeze, cough), BUT by ignorance, stupidity and hubris.. This belief that it cannot happen here is ridiculous and dangerous...

The way in which Cristie implemented this policy was typical of a bully boy politician.. But the underlying reality is that it must be done. But with thought and compassion for those coming back from the Hot Zone.

They must know going into this, that a 42 day(not 21 day) NON VOLUNTARY in house quarantine awaits them when they return..

Use some of Corporate America's donations to pay them a 1000 dollar a day stipend for their sacrifice.

Robert
 
 
-2 # WBoardman 2014-10-30 14:07
RDenner uses a weak analogy when comparing Guinea
to any 1st world country.

The analogy is further weakened by comparing then to now,
when the level of knowledge is so different.

The real problem with automatic quarantine for
broad categories of people who have, as a class,
zero record it that it's mindledd [stupid].
It's also a police state response to a medical challenge
that violates our constitution.

Quarantine is indeed a useful response when used sensibly,
compare Vermont and Maine currently.
Maine is going to court to quarantine a healthy woman.

The idea of a contractual understanding for health workers
with a significant payout for what they currently do
voluntarily might be an OK idea.

What matters most right now is getting enough
health workers to West Africa.
 
 
-3 # A_Har 2014-10-30 14:49
What part of *level four biohazard* (which ebola IS) do you fail to understand? It would seem you do not get that at all. It has the *highest incidence of lethality,* and NO CURE.

Most Deadly Viruses – BioSafety Level 4
http://thecerebrallounge.wordpress.com/2012/09/05/bsl4/

"This week we’ll look at viruses considered most deadly, most infectious and have no cure. What researchers call “Biosafety Level 4″ – viruses that cause hemorrhagic fevers and smallpox, and the Marburg, Ebola and Lassa viruses. Researchers and policy makers have a delimma: how to study these dangerous viruses to find a cure when they are so contagious and so deadly?"

Doctors and nurses here and in other first world countries are worried about working with people who have a level FOUR disease.

From WHO:

Unprecedented number of medical staff infected with Ebola

Situation assessment - 25 August 2014

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/ebola/25-august-2014/en/

"To date, more than 240 health care workers have developed the disease in Guinea, Liberia, Nigeria, and Sierra Leone, and more than 120 have died."

And "healthy woman"--that we do not know since the incubation period is 21 to 42 days as I noted repeatedly. Maine has a mandate to protect the public health regardless of what might seem popular or politically correct.

I'm sorry that experts and any others informed on the situation can't remain calm. Perhaps they have good reasons for this which are *grounded in REALITY.*
 
 
-3 # A_Har 2014-10-30 14:57
If people die of this, they won't have any constitutional rights either.
 
 
+5 # RDenner 2014-10-29 19:16
One more comment on WHY a quarantine is necessary.

Some have compared this to the flu, or bird flu or n1h1 or even the dread 1918 Spanish flu..

Ebola is like nothing that has faced humanity literally since the Black Plague. This is not hyperbole, this is fact. We are dealing with a disease with a 70% kill rate. Even the Black Plague only had a 40 to 50% kill rate.

Compare this with the great pandemic of 1918, which caused widespread chaos and is thought to have been one of the key reasons that World War I ended.. That great pandemic only killed 5% or less of those it infected.

Ebola is a slow burn disease as it has taken nearly a year to reach the parabolic stage of infection in West Africa.. The fear with Ebola is not a fast pandemic, but rather it becoming ENDEMIC like the flu as it is beat down in one area only to pop up and spread in others.

Should this become embedded in the slums of Mexico city or Rio, it is a guarantee that it will spread North as people flee, just like they are fleeing Liberia/Guinea/ Liberia and are now infecting Mali and soon other neighboring countries.

This transcends politics. We need to come together as people of planet Earth and stop this thing before it consumes the entire continent of Africa.. And it will not stay contained in Africa..

Robert
 
 
+2 # Depressionborn 2014-10-30 02:49
Thanks, Robert

just woke up, realized administration is doing everything that will spread Ebola.


something smells bad
 
 
+4 # RDenner 2014-10-30 04:49
I tend not to agree with such conspiracies, but I have read them all, including the movement of illegal children in an effort to spread more tame diseases.

This is the type of partisan politics that will get this country in trouble. It is fun to play politics and blame President Obama for purposely trying to kill millions of people, like some kind of political thriller.

The reality is that he believes in what he is doing(in regards to illegal children) and I believe that this Ebola outbreak has put a chink in his plans, with only a week or less till a major US election.

I truly hope that the rhetoric changes after the election and this administration starts to take this serious..Nothin g they have done to this point is beyond getting in front of. That will not last.

As the infections pile up in West Africa(as noted above), the chances of a person boarding a plane and bringing Ebola to the Americas increases exponentially.

So long as international travel out of Africa continues, it will be necessary for the uninfected areas to be vigilant to the point of paranoia in making sure Ebola doesn't get a toe hold over here.

Robert

Quoting Depressionborn:
Thanks, Robert

just woke up, realized administration is doing everything that will spread Ebola.


something smells bad
 
 
+2 # Old4Poor 2014-10-30 12:36
But Robert, The various flus are airborne and easily passed into other's breathing space. The Black Plague was passed by flea bites, which jump around on all kinds of people.

Ebola does have the abilty to spread through body fluids of the symptomatic, and if it gets to India for example it would become a world issue fast.

A few cases are easy to treat, but if it were to suddenly erupt in thousands it would be an issue.

This is why it is essetnial to stop it where it is NOW.

We have little malaria or denge fever in the US, even though they are spread by mosquitoes and exist in the Americas.

IF we want to save lives here, I suggest that employers be mandated to keep flu infected workers home until they are well. And schools, sick students.
 
 
+1 # RDenner 2014-10-30 13:11
Malaria is treatable and cheaply with over the counter anti-biotics. There is not such cure or prevention for any of the Ebola strains.

The CDC has published that Ebola IS transmitted via aerosol at up to 3 feet. But only during later stages of infection..

One last thing to consider when you say 1,000's would be a problem.. A single case of Ebola in an American hospital essentially shut it down. Same goes for a portion of another in New York.

Two cases have done this.. What do you think 1000 cases looks like?

You are ABSOLUTELY correct that if this gets into the population of India or Mexico City or any other large urban area outside West Africa and you can expect the same slow steady spread if it isn't taken serious..

Nigeria is touted as being the "standard".. Understand what Nigeria did.. They had zero tolerance. All traced individuals were watched and forced to stay isolated..

In a word.. They took it deadly serious..

We on the other hand.. Are Not.

Robert
 
 
0 # RDenner 2014-10-30 13:11
Malaria is treatable and cheaply with over the counter anti-biotics. There is not such cure or prevention for any of the Ebola strains.

The CDC has published that Ebola IS transmitted via aerosol at up to 3 feet. But only during later stages of infection..

One last thing to consider when you say 1,000's would be a problem.. A single case of Ebola in an American hospital essentially shut it down. Same goes for a portion of another in New York.

Two cases have done this.. What do you think 1000 cases looks like?

You are ABSOLUTELY correct that if this gets into the population of India or Mexico City or any other large urban area outside West Africa and you can expect the same slow steady spread if it isn't taken serious..

Nigeria is touted as being the "standard".. Understand what Nigeria did.. They had zero tolerance. All traced individuals were watched and forced to stay isolated..

In a word.. They took it deadly serious..

We on the other hand.. Are Not.

Robert
 
 
0 # Old4Poor 2014-10-31 00:00
Oh, my. Just becasue there are easily available treatments for malaria in this country does not make it any fun to have.

There is also proven medicine for Ebola, but the drug companies are not producing it as there is not (yet) enough profit. There are also plasma transfusions from those who have recovered.

All making me wonder if all the panic and hype is not to create a great demand for the meds so big pharma can make more profits. FOLLOW THE MONEY.
 
 
-1 # A_Har 2014-10-30 15:45
If it gets to any heavily populated area it becomes a serious issue fast. That includes NYC or any major city anywhere.

"A few cases are easy to treat, but if it were to suddenly erupt in thousands it would be an issue."

Yes. In Africa it built up slowly over time until it has come to a doubling point every week or so. That is the likely course of it if it is not contained at a low level.

The time to act is now.
 
 
+2 # WBoardman 2014-10-30 14:47
Couldn't agree with RDenner more, that Ebola needs
to be contained, and there's some indication that
that's happening now, in West Africa.

But while the death rate is indeed some 70% in some places,
the average appears to be more like 50%
and in some places of course much lower.

The US, for example, has a statistically meaningless
death rate of what, 20% (1 of 5)?

The extrapolation to Mexico City and Rio and then
to elsewhere borderline fear-mongering.
The likelihood is low,
the current factual basis close to nil.

And certainly something that would happen
regardless of quarantining healthy nurses in Maine or NJ.

If only it did transcend politics – the reality is that
the way policies, good or bad, get implemented
is through political systems – so we need to make them work.
 
 
+2 # cymricmorty 2014-10-30 09:22
Of course, a Surgeon General would be helpful now, and a fine one was selected quite some time ago, but can we have one when one is needed most? NOOOOOOO, because NRA and repubs.
 
 
+1 # WBoardman 2014-10-30 14:59
RDenner writes, problematically :

"As the infections pile up in West Africa(as noted above), the chances of a person boarding a plane and bringing Ebola to the Americas increases exponentially.
"So long as international travel out of Africa continues, it will be necessary for the uninfected areas to be vigilant to the point of paranoia in making sure Ebola doesn't get a toe hold over here."

Having identified a problem in Africa,
he proposes to solve it somewhere else.

Is there a simpler solution than keeping infected
people from boarding planes in West Africa?
If so, what is it?
Doesn't the Dallas experience turn on that very failure,
compounded by US incompetence?

Quarantining everyone in New Jersey in August
would not have prevented Thomas Eric Duncan
from coming to Texas to die.
 
 
+2 # WBoardman 2014-10-30 15:39
OK, so there's "no cure" for Ebola.

So what's the word for the treated cases here where
people recovered?

Or is "no cure" a panic phrase for a much subtler reality,
a panic phrase that goes with fear-mongering?

OK, taking a chance here with the CDC,
but CDC says three cases so far,
with 176 contacts under surveillance.
Is the CDC security-monger ing?

There's a reason we have this common expression:
"scared out of their wits."

What that looks like sometimes is when someone
takes three real cases and speculates about thousands.
 
 
-3 # A_Har 2014-10-30 17:03
Remember the old adage that an ounce of prevention is worth pounds of cure?

The word for people who did recover is that their own immune system was strong enough to fight the disease if they got the kind of supportive care they needed. Again though the key word is *strong enough.* A whole lot of people did not make it and died. Whole families died. That is simply the reality and that is why it is called a level 4 biosafety disease. Current medical science does not have a grip on such viruses. In such a case, our best hope for most people is for them to *not be exposed in the first place.* That is what they did in Nigeria. And in Sierra Leone they instituted a Cordon Sanitaire it got so bad. That is what it takes to stop it.

Such measures aren't going to be popular in terms of isolation/quara tine. They certainly were not popular in Liberia where relatives of the sick ebola patients raided the hospitals to take their family members home. The social chaos this epidemic created in Liberia created a lot of problems for treating it.
 
 
-2 # A_Har 2014-10-30 17:18
As to 176 under surveillance--I hope they did manage to find all those who were exposed so they could be monitored. In our interconnected world with air travel this is very tall order as noted by this article I keep posting:
http://www.activistpost.com/2014/10/the-handling-of-this-ebola-crisis-is.html

"The hour-to-hour account of what happened leading up to Duncan’s official Ebola diagnosis does not bode well that the virus has been contained at all. Some 100 people have likely come in contact with him at this point at least. He left Liberia on September 19th and he went through Brussels and Dulles Airport in D.C. before finally arriving in Dallas on the 20th. Who actually remembers every person they came in physical or close contact with in a week (the same week they are coming down with Ebola and in serious condition)? Who can remember every time they coughed or sneezed and where that cough or sneeze took place and around whom?"

Even if the lethality level is lower than 50%, it is still a tragedy for those effected if you consider what happened here with the Spanish Flu a little over 100 years ago.
 
 
-2 # A_Har 2014-10-30 17:27
"What that looks like sometimes is when someone
takes three real cases and speculates about thousands."

Africa had three cases less than a year ago. Look at them now. For first world countries we could be where Africa was last December and the risk is still relatively low *if the right action is taken.* That means to keep people here from being exposed in the first place, and not disseminate misinformation such as that about the incubation period being only 21 days when in some cases it is 42 days. That kind of thing will get us in trouble. This is not fearmongering, it simply is the way this level 4 biosafety virus operates. To make a political football out of this serves no one. They did not do this in Nigeria--*they simply did what needed to be done.*

Regardless of our first world medical system, I have read and posted reports here--one that you saw from a ER doctor. He said his system could not handle many cases. The costs to treat even one person are enormous. Best policy is to not have them get sick in the first place.
 
 
+1 # WBoardman 2014-10-30 15:42
No FDA-approved vaccine or medicine (e.g., antiviral drug) is available for Ebola.

Symptoms of Ebola are treated as they appear. The following basic interventions, when used early, can significantly improve the chances of survival:

Providing intravenous fluids (IV)and balancing electrolytes (body salts)
Maintaining oxygen status and blood pressure
Treating other infections if they occur
Experimental vaccines and treatments for Ebola are under development, but they have not yet been fully tested for safety or effectiveness.

Recovery from Ebola depends on good supportive care and the patient’s immune response. People who recover from Ebola infection develop antibodies that last for at least 10 years, possibly longer. It isn't known if people who recover are immune for life or if they can become infected with a different species of Ebola. Some people who have recovered from Ebola have developed long-term complications, such as joint and vision problems.

source: http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/treatment/
 
 
-1 # A_Har 2014-10-30 17:57
Look at the RO numbers--reprod uction number--scienti sts use it to gauge the growth potential. And, Laurie Garret from Foreign Policy talks about these numbers in this article:
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/09/05/we_could_have_stopped_this_ebola_virus_world_health_organization

"Disease fighters reckon the contagious potential of an outbreak in terms of its RO, or reproduction number. (RO = 1 means that each infected person is statistically likely to infect one more person, so the epidemic will neither grow, nor shrink in size. RO = 0 signifies that the disease cannot be passed from person to person. Any RO above 1 connotes an expanding epidemic.) Christian Althaus of the University of Bern in Switzerland just released a grim new calculation of the RO for this epidemic that finds that when the outbreak began in Guinea, it was RO = 1.5, so each person infected one and a half other people, for a moderate rate of epidemic growth. But by early July, the RO in Sierra Leone was a hideous 2.53, so the epidemic was more than doubling in size with each round of transmission. Today in Liberia, the virus is spreading so rapidly that no RO has been computed. Back in the spring, however, when matters were conceivably controllable, Liberia's then-small rural outbreak was 1.59."

The more people who are exposed, the more people who will get it. That is how it works. Does it look like a good idea to import it here?
or allow people who might be infected to roam around?
 
 
-1 # A_Har 2014-10-30 18:57
And, from the same link relative to to what the RO figures meant relative to its spread in Africa:

"From March to July 17, the first 1,000 cases accumulated over four and a half months. The toll reached 2,000 after just one month, on Aug. 13, and then jumped to 3,000 just 13 days later, on Aug. 26. If this trend continues the epidemic could well reach the WHO's projected 20,000 cases by October."

And NOW....

The World Health Organization is reporting that the number of ebola cases has surpassed 10,000
October 25, 2014

http://www.app.com/story/news/world/2014/10/25/number-ebola-cases-passes/17897267/

Can you see where this could lead? Acknowledging this can widen your event horizon. It is akin to seeing what went wrong for someone else and *using that to not make the same mistake.* While it is good to learn from your own mistakes, it is far better to be able to learn from the mistakes of others so you do not have to suffer the setback in the first place.

We need to stop this before it happens here. If the USA takes this as a lesson and a warning to take action--it can be shut down before it gets any traction.

So, knowing and tracking it for the past six months and understanding how it works, and what it could do is not fear mongering but vital to stopping it.
 
 
-1 # Old4Poor 2014-10-31 12:28
Dear God. There is a cure. How do I (who has tried to avoid all Ebola coverage) know this and the rest of you apparently do not. The drug was used on the first two health care workers brought back to the US. (There were only two doses available at that time) and now their blood plasma is being used for transfusions to transfer immunity.
 
 
-1 # A_Har 2014-10-31 13:09
Quoting Old4Poor:
Dear God. There is a cure. How do I (who has tried to avoid all Ebola coverage) know this and the rest of you apparently do not. The drug was used on the first two health care workers brought back to the US. (There were only two doses available at that time) and now their blood plasma is being used for transfusions to transfer immunity.


Are you talking about ZMapp? Yes I do know about it. I did since the first two Americans were flown here for treatment. The drug is experimental, and it is not actually proven that it was what was effective in stopping ebola in the first cases. Some people recovered with supportive care and without drugs albeit not so many. Experimental drugs usually have to go through many trials to show that they are safe and that they actually WORK on the conditions they are supposed to treat. In some cases, they may actually kill or harm some people. It is a long long road from experimental status to being fully approved. You have to take that into account.

Zmapp may show promise over the long run or not. It is still too early to say it is "the cure."

And two doses? They are now out of it. How would it do if there were even four more cases since it is gone. A cure is only one if it is available and viable. They are a long long way away from that with this drug. It is too early to call it a cure.
 
 
0 # Old4Poor 2014-10-31 18:49
And all this induced panic will certainly provide the funding to develop more fast. Hence, more profits for Big Pharma.

I think we are being conned.

And, just because something has not yet been approved by the FDA and is thus experimental does not mean it is not effective.
 
 
0 # A_Har 2014-10-31 23:44
Quoting Old4Poor:
And, just because something has not yet been approved by the FDA and is thus experimental does not mean it is not effective.


Like I said--they have to run trials to find out what works and that takes time. And, people are dying of it now; those in Africa with it have no time. There was another article on RSN put up on October 26th that talked about the process the researchers have to take to determine what exactly works and what doesn't.

Blood Is Ebola's Weapon and Weakness
http://readersupportednews.org/news-section2/318-66/26606-blood-is-ebolas-weapon-and-weakness

In it they talk about using the blood plasma of recovered ebola survivors to help the sick. While it seemed to help, researchers are still not sure if that is what made patients turn around--it still remains an issue for research:

"After receiving transfusions of blood from those who had survived the disease, all but one survived. But in the process of getting the transfusions, the eight patients reportedly received “better care” than others, which made scientist unable to claim the blood as solely responsible for the recovery. “Plans should be made to prepare for a more thorough evaluation of passive immune therapy during a new [Ebola] outbreak,” reads the end of the study’s 1995 abstract."

This kind of further study is common to research projects. And again--all this takes time with Zmapp as well as other drugs.
 
 
0 # A_Har 2014-10-31 23:48
And, with reference to the same article and towards the end, they say this:

"Despite the positive news, Landmark doesn’t view it as a solution. “Convalescent blood transfusions and plasma transfusions may help people who are sick survive the infection,” he says. “It won’t prevent the disease.” *Turning the tide of the epidemic, he says, will require “rigorous contact, tracing, and quarantining.”*

Note that he mentions "rigorous contact, tracing, and quarantining." Like I have said repeatedly, that is one of the tools public health uses in stopping a disease like this. It is a standard protocol.

Old4Poor the risk for us now is low. It will remain low if our public health swings into action and educates the public as to why those protocols have to be used. In this way it can be contained or stopped.
 
 
0 # A_Har 2014-11-01 00:52
I sent you a personal message. Check your messages.
 
 
+2 # RDenner 2014-10-30 19:54
Thank you both for your responses. Both are coming from opposite ends of the spectrum, but from the same point of view.

One thinks it is serious, but not necessarily a problem. The other thinks it is serious and that if we continue doing what we are doing it WILL be a problem.

Boardman I have a HUGE problem with something you said. Either you didn't think it through or you don't have a good grasp of diseases and how they affect societies.

You said.

{{{{The US, for example, has a statistically meaningless
death rate of what, 20% (1 of 5)? }}}}

At a 20% death rate, you are talking about the end of America.. You do realize this don't you? Look at the 100 people in your office or your kids school and tick off every fifth person as dead..

I have to assume you meant, the very small sample that has contracted Ebola and ended up in America. In that only 1 has died..

The statistics in West Africa are clear that IF the patient is given basic support early enough, the death rate falls to well under 50%...

But I hope you understand that 50% or 20% means the end of the world as we know it...

There is no need for panic at this point. A well thought out quarantine regimen on the American side and an absolutely aggressive attack of this disease on the African side is the only way we pull this back from the brink.

As it stands now the 3 countries at the center of this outbreak are likely lost as we will likely see 100's of thousands dead by February.
 
 
-1 # WBoardman 2014-10-31 09:37
A sample of 5 is a meaningless basis for any statistic.

Applying it to 300 million people
is irrational and panic-laden.

Correcting that still statistically meaningless "fact" –
the US has now had 9 cases & 1 death (& one in treatment)
gives us a revised death rate of 11% –
WE'VE CUT THE DEATH RATE IN HALF!!! ;-)))

And the one death was at least partly a hospital SNAFU.

So the actual US death rate with proper care is ZERO, 0%
[still statistically meaningless)

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/120036/ebola-outbreak-survival-us-could-hit-90-percent-africa-suffers

Certainty about the future is a clear sign
that someone is thinking rigidly, not clearly.

Come February, if the death toll fails to meet
RDenner's apocalyptic prediction of 200,000+ dead
in West Africa, will RDenner look back on this
over-frightened moment with any chagrin?

Currently the death toll is just under 5,000.

"A well thought out quarantine regimen" does not yet exist
in the United States generally,
certainly not in NJ, Maine, Illinois, Florida, et alia.
New York City and Vermont appear to be exceptions.

RDenner is right, "There is no need for panic at this point,"
but seems oblivious to the way RD's message feeds panic.
"the end of the world as we know it" is a panic slogan.

The world "as we know it" needs to be
ended in so many ways, not least international response
to Ebola in West Africa. Don't panic, think.
 
 
-3 # A_Har 2014-10-31 13:24
Quoting WBoardman:
Certainty about the future is a clear sign
that someone is thinking rigidly, not clearly.


Healthcare professionals know that early action with regards to prevention and treatment yield good results. There are many conditions where the trajectory is very predictable and protocols for dealing with them are well established. Crisis planning is a regular feature of many of those protocols and are put in place even when no crisis is readily apparent.

In mental health you do not wait until the suicidal patient is on the bridge railing ready to jump to take action to keep that from that happening. Likewise you do not wait to treat a condition when it shows the first symptoms; you deal with it immediately so it does not become life threatening. You want it to remain small and not become a crisis. In public health, the same applies as a way to protect the public.

Minimizing and saying it is not a problem never works out very well. It is far better to err on the side of caution. Then you won't have cause to panic at all.
 
 
0 # A_Har 2014-11-02 22:31
West Africa started out with one case last December or so, and now there are over 13,000 or more. I told you about the *RO numbers* but you refuse to even read about it. You seem to be math impaired. You do not understand in the least how the exponential function works with regards to epidemics. You could learn if you wanted to. It looks like you are not interested.

You are hard set that it just can't happen here--OH yes it can and with an attitude like your entrenched denial, it is a lot more likely. Right now the risks are low, but they were low in Africa too a year ago. Americans are not immune to misfortune.
 
 
-3 # A_Har 2014-10-31 10:53
It is breathtaking how stuck you are on your agenda.

While there is no need for panic when the problem is small and with the right action it could be stopped, that correct action to stop it would PREVENT crisis. Anyone who works in healthcare knows this including epidemiologists , medical people, and mental health workers. You equate such a stance as fear mongering. (sigh)

And, your MO in terms of thinking is really one track in terms of your own agenda. That does not include what health care workers take as their standard protocols which includes prevention. Quarantine is PREVENTION especially when a level 4 biosafety disease is involved where there is NO CURE.

I have worked in health care and I don't wait for a problem to get anywhere near the point of crisis, because if I did, it would be a lot worse to deal with. I was constantly vigilant and monitoring it from the very FIRST signs it might emerge. You equate that with panic. No, that was to prevent a full bloom crisis from ever happening, and it allowed me to function better in my setting.

That is not the way our systems work though as a general rule--we lurch from crisis to crisis and then when things are half dealt with people forget all about it. So then it festers and becomes worse in the next episode.

As to the world as we know it--yes, it does need to change, but without a lot of people dying from the incompetence at the top.
 
 
-1 # WBoardman 2014-10-31 16:28
"Minimizing and saying it is not a problem...." writes A_Har,
setting up a strawman argument....
while continuing his ad hominem stuff.

Not to be panicked by A_Har-style fearmongering,
a Maine judge has now ordered nurse Kaci Hickox
to continue self-monitoring as per rational protocol,
but has said she is otherwise free to move about.

The police state style governor LePage, for whom the
police state style gov Christie just campaigned,
has received a much needed rebuke from the law.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/80060d5318a5480f8bd8bef6a2c0bb00/life-goes-nurse-standoff-over-ebola
 
 
-1 # A_Har 2014-10-31 18:06
Quoting WBoardman:
"Minimizing and saying it is not a problem...." writes A_Har,
setting up a strawman argument....
while continuing his ad hominem stuff.


The strawman is yours.

You continue to demonstrate that you know nothing about the basic tenets of healthcare, public health protection, and prevention. You do this over and over. When I cite it, you claim I am attacking you saying it is an Ad hominem or say that I am fear mongering. The fearmongering word is a form of propaganda. It shuts down any exchange of ideas or any new information that might be introduced.

Making a public health issue (Biosafety level 4 disease with NO CURE) into a political football is dangerous and irresponsible.

The FIRST principle of healthcare is first do no harm to the sick and the public. It is based on the hippocratic oath--ever hear of it? They still do not know how long the incubation period is or when people become infectious to others. In the last century they instituted quarantines for illnesses that had no cure. They put signs on houses to quarantine them to protect the community. It is a tried and true method that worked for centuries when diseases had no cure.
 
 
-2 # A_Har 2014-10-31 18:08
Based on the hippocratic oath, I would say that Kaci Hickox is *not fit to be a nurse.* A legitimate healthcare worker who cared about her patients and her profession would do the quarantine without any protests whatsoever after working with people sick with a Biosafety level 4 disease with NO CURE. I would not even bat an eye at such a request from any setting I worked in. It is the responsible thing to do despite the inconvenience.

Panic? *NO* and especially if the correct action would be taken early to prevent a crisis. Your constant meme that I am a panicked fear monger is an Ad hominem that you have repeated over and over again--your constant repetition does not make it true. *I am educated in healthcare.* And I am educated in the ETHICS of healthcare and in crisis prevention protocols.
 
 
+1 # Old4Poor 2014-10-31 18:59
And we all noticed how the media camped around her house willingly violated that three ft barrier to ask their questions.

How on earth is she endangering anyone? She is not treating patient at present nor putting nayone at risk.
 
 
-2 # A_Har 2014-10-31 19:19
Quoting Old4Poor:
And we all noticed how the media camped around her house willingly violated that three ft barrier to ask their questions.


Gee, I am sorry to hear it.

Quoting Old4Poor:
How on earth is she endangering anyone? She is not treating patient at present nor putting nayone at risk.


Well, from my point of view, if she stayed in her house during a quarantine period, it would demonstrate her concern and her respect for health protocols. She would demonstrate that her nursing training meant something. Instead she turned this into a media circus. And like you said, the reporters got closer to her than the recommended distance.

Also, I think it confuses people about how serious ebola is when there is no quarantine and she (who is supposed to be a health care worker) bucks it.

As to working with patients, I hope no one ever hires her as a nurse again. Her behavior is disgraceful; it is beyond unprofessional. Making a public health issue (Biosafety level 4 disease with NO CURE) into a political football is dangerous and irresponsible and she did this. I would never trust her in healthcare again.

And, in mental health terms, she looks like a loon.
 
 
+1 # Old4Poor 2014-10-31 23:30
I think you are blaming the wrong person. This is a prvate individual who became known because Christie acted like an insane bully and imprisoned her without cause.

She has bravely taken advantage of the situation to try to educate the public as to the real risks of Ebola as well as what is not a risk.

She left her house to go biking out in a remote area, she was not wandering around in public nor working with patients. If it were not for the feeding frenzy of the press we would not even know that she had been out of her house at all. She has made it clear that she understands the unreasoned fears of many like you and is honoring that by NOT being more public.

Fear is the enemy. Not Ebola, and certainly not nurses.
 
 
-2 # A_Har 2014-11-01 00:04
I have said more than once that *Christi was a jerk.*

Biosafety level 4 EBOLA exposure-- one of the most dangerous pathogens in the world for humans is a VERY good reason to quarantine her. And, I do not have a problem with "nurses" just this person. She has taken advantage of the situation to *spread disinformation.*

OTOH, this nurse has been highly reactive--this does not work either. If she wanted to remain an obscure person, she could have made some accomodations to remain private and not taken it to court. She fed into the "feeding frenzy" so her claim looks rather disingenuous to me.

As to her "education of the public," it is possible she is WRONG. Researchers are still learning about this illness themselves.
 
 
-1 # Old4Poor 2014-11-01 11:08
I have begun to wonder if you do not have a finaical gain angle in trying to spread the fear associated with this.

This nurse has just been on the front lines, treating the very ill and dying.

She has first hand, detailed experience with this disease that goes far beyond what either of us can speculate as to.
 
 
-1 # A_Har 2014-11-02 22:16
Financial gain?? Absolutely not. I am retired, and I wrote about this because I hope people will just be able to understand the potential problems so it stops right now.

In fact, it looks like I may have wasted my time going on about this. Few here seem to understand basic public health.

What is more of a panic to me is how the basic principles of that are being thrown under the bus.

The nurse acts like this is a garden variety flu virus--it is nothing of the kind. Her experience seems to mean nothing either.
 
 
0 # Old4Poor 2014-11-01 11:10
Please feel free to have the last word. I am done.
 
 
+3 # Depressionborn 2014-11-02 04:50
My sense is that the powers that be fear panic more than Ebola

Canada on Friday announced it was suspending visa applications for residents of Ebola-hit nations in a bid to prevent the deadly virus from crossing its borders. Immigration Canada said authorities would not process any visa applications from individuals who had been in an Ebola-affected nation "within three months prior to the date of the application." "Canada has been a leader in the international efforts to respond to the Ebola outbreak in West Africa," said Chris Alexander, Canada's immigration minister. "The precautionary measures announced today build on actions we have taken to protect the health and safety of Canadians here at...
 
 
0 # A_Har 2014-11-02 21:27
Depressionborn, you seem to be one of the few people here that gets it. (sigh). People do not seem to understand how incredibly dangerous this disease is: NO CURE! This is not hysteria or fear-mongering- -this is simply an epidemiological fact. And again, there is no cure for these biosafety level 4 pathogens which include diseases like bird flu, Marburg virus, ebola and others, so strict controls are required along with a specialized labs for containment. These are the most dangerous pathogens in the world for humans. Scientists who work with them regularly wear something like a space suit and they are closely monitored and decontaminated several times going through a number of different rooms in the process to keep the pathogens from walking out of the labs with them. There are only a few labs here in the USA qualified to handle these kinds of agents.

Ebola is a biosafety level 4 pathogen. Most hospitals in the USA are biosafety level 2. There are really only 19 beds in the USA set up to handle it (same as in the biosafety level 4 LABS) where personnel are fully and extensively trained to handle the isolation required and the physical layout of the facility is designed for it. However, it looks like they are going to let this into the country and go ahead and treat the sick in level 2 facilities anyway. While training is going on in hospitals for this now, they are not built for the same level of containment and were *never intended* to do so in the first place.
 
 
0 # A_Har 2014-11-02 22:08
The post in relation to Canada mentions "precautionary measures"...I was going on and on about that in this comment section to deaf ears.

Quarantines and travel restrictions are the most basic public health tools that are available to keep a biosafety level 4 pathogen OUT. Countries that have done this want to protect their citizens and their health care systems--it's just simply the sane thing to do.

There is a long list of countries implementing this--see it at this link: https://www.internationalsos.com/ebola/index.cfm?content_id=435&

As you mentioned earlier too, the US military has also placed troops in quarantine who were assigned to the effected countries. Perhaps they have good reasons for doing this with such a dangerous disease?

Many American want a travel ban on ebola effected countries.
Poll: 67 Percent Want Ebola Travel Ban
http://dailycaller.com/2014/10/14/poll-67-percent-want-ebola-travel-ban/

Including Democrats:
Democrats Defy Obama in Favor of an Ebola Travel Ban
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/10/democrats-defy-obama-in-favor-of-ebola-travel-ban/381712/

While they may wish to stop panic, if they do not take measures to stop this disease here before it becomes a problem, they may have more panic than they ever dreamed of. Our healthcare system is already already at the limit. It won't take many ebola infected patients to shut it down. This is not fearmongering.. ..these are the facts.
 
 
0 # A_Har 2014-11-03 11:05
Quoting A_Har:

While they may wish to stop panic, if they do not take measures to stop this disease here before it becomes a problem, they may have more panic than they ever dreamed of. Our healthcare system is already at the limit. It won't take many ebola infected patients to shut it down. This is not fearmongering....these are just the facts.


US hospitals can't handle many ebola cases as they are already stretched:

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_EBOLA_US_HEALTH_CARE_PREPAREDNESS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-10-29-12-25-52

They are not set up for or designed to handle a biosafety level 4 disease.
 

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