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Taibbi writes: "Biden did absolutely roll his eyes, snort, laugh derisively and throw his hands up in the air whenever Ryan trotted out his little beady-eyed BS-isms. But he should have! He was absolutely right to be doing it. We all should be doing it. That includes all of us in the media."

Joe Biden at the vice presidential debate in Danville, Kentucky. (photo: Alex Wong/Getty Images)
Joe Biden at the vice presidential debate in Danville, Kentucky. (photo: Alex Wong/Getty Images)

Joe Biden Was Right to Laugh

By Matt Taibbi, Rolling Stone

13 October 12


've never thought much of Joe Biden. But man, did he get it right in last night's debate, and not just because he walloped sniveling little Paul Ryan on the facts. What he got absolutely right, despite what you might read this morning (many outlets are criticizing Biden's dramatic excesses), was his tone. Biden did absolutely roll his eyes, snort, laugh derisively and throw his hands up in the air whenever Ryan trotted out his little beady-eyed BS-isms.

But he should have! He was absolutely right to be doing it. We all should be doing it. That includes all of us in the media, and not just paid obnoxious-opinion-merchants like me, but so-called "objective" news reporters as well. We should all be rolling our eyes, and scoffing and saying, "Come back when you're serious."

The load of balls that both Romney and Ryan have been pushing out there for this whole election season is simply not intellectually serious. Most of their platform isn't even a real platform, it's a fourth-rate parlor trick designed to paper over the real agenda - cutting taxes even more for super-rich dickheads like Mitt Romney, and getting everyone else to pay the bill.

The essence of the whole campaign for me was crystalized in the debate exchange over Romney's 20 percent tax-cut plan. ABC's Martha Raddatz turned the questioning to Ryan:

MS. RADDATZ: Well, let's talk about this 20 percent.

VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN: Well - (chuckles) -

MS. RADDATZ: You have refused yet again to offer specifics on how you pay for that 20 percent across-the-board tax cut. Do you actually have the specifics, or are you still working on it, and that's why you won't tell voters?

Here Ryan is presented with a simple yes-or-no answer. Since he doesn't have the answer, he immediately starts slithering and equivocating:

REP. RYAN: Different than this administration, we actually want to have big bipartisan agreements. You see, I understand the -

"We want to have bipartisan agreements?" This coming from a Republican congressman? These guys would stall a bill to name a post office after Shirley Temple. Biden, absolutely properly, chuckled and said, "That'd be a first for a Republican congress." Then Raddatz did exactly what any self-respecting journalist should do in that situation: she objected to being lied to, and yanked on the leash, forcing Ryan back to the question.

I'm convinced Raddatz wouldn't have pounced on Ryan if he hadn't trotted out this preposterous line about bipartisanism. Where does Ryan think we've all been living, Mars? It's one thing to pull that on some crowd of unsuspecting voters that hasn't followed politics that much and doesn't know the history. But any professional political journalist knows enough to know the abject comedy of that line. Still, Ryan was banking on the moderator not getting in the way and just letting him dump his trash on audiences. Instead, she aggressively grabbed Ryan by his puppy-scruff and pushed him back into the mess of his own proposal:

MS. RADDATZ: Do you have the specifics? Do you have the math? Do you know exactly what you're doing?

So now the ball is in Ryan's court. The answer he gives is astounding:

REP. RYAN: Look - look at what Mitt - look at what Ronald Reagan and Tip O'Neill did. They worked together out of a framework to lower tax rates and broaden the base, and they worked together to fix that. What we're saying is here's our framework: Lower tax rates 20 percent - we raise about $1.2 trillion through income taxes. We forgo about 1.1 trillion [dollars] in loopholes and deductions. And so what we're saying is deny those loopholes and deductions to higher-income taxpayers so that more of their income is taxed, which has a broader base of taxation -

Three things about this answer:

1) Ryan again here refuses to answer Raddatz's yes-or-no question about specifics. So now we know the answer: there are no specifics.

2) In lieu of those nonexistent specifics, what Ryan basically says is that he and Romney will set the framework - "Lower taxes by 20 percent" - and then they'll work out the specifics of how to get there with the Democrats in bipartisan fashion.

3) So essentially, Ryan has just admitted on national television that the Romney tax plan will be worked out after the election with the same Democrats from whom they are now, before the election, hiding any and all details.

So then, after that, there's this exchange.


REP. RYAN: - so we can lower tax rates across the board. Now, here's why I'm saying this. What we're saying is here's a framework -

VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN: I hope I'm going to get time to respond to this.

REP. RYAN: We want to work with Congress -

MS. RADDATZ: I - you'll get time.

REP. RYAN: We want to work with Congress on how best to achieve this. That means successful - look -

MS. RADDATZ: No specifics, yeah.

Raddatz did exactly the right thing. She asked a yes-or-no question, had a politician try to run the lamest kind of game on her - and when he was done, she called him on it, coming right back to the question and translating for viewers: "No specifics."

Think about what that means. Mitt Romney is running for president - for president! - promising an across-the-board 20 percent tax cut without offering any details about how that's going to be paid for. Forget being battered by the press, he and his little sidekick Ryan should both be tossed off the playing field for even trying something like that. This race for the White House, this isn't some frat prank. This is serious. This is for grownups, for God's sake.

If you're going to offer an across-the-board 20 percent tax cut without explaining how it's getting paid for, hell, why stop there? Why not just offer everyone over 18 a 1965 Mustang? Why not promise every child a Zagnut and an Xbox, or compatible mates for every lonely single person?

Sometimes in journalism I think we take the objectivity thing too far. We think being fair means giving equal weight to both sides of every argument. But sometimes in the zeal to be objective, reporters get confused. You can't report the Obama tax plan and the Romney tax plan in the same way, because only one of them is really a plan, while the other is actually not a plan at all, but an electoral gambit.

The Romney/Ryan ticket decided, with incredible cynicism, that that they were going to promise this massive tax break, not explain how to pay for it, and then just hang on until election day, knowing that most of the political press would let it skate, or at least not take a dump all over it when explaining it to the public. Unchallenged, and treated in print and on the air as though it were the same thing as a real plan, a 20 percent tax cut sounds pretty good to most Americans. Hell, it sounds good to me.

The proper way to report such a tactic is to bring to your coverage exactly the feeling that Biden brought to the debate last night: contempt and amazement. We in the press should be offended by what Romney and Ryan are doing - we should take professional offense that any politician would try to whisk such a gigantic lie past us to our audiences, and we should take patriotic offense that anyone is trying to seize the White House using such transparently childish and dishonest tactics.

I've never been a Joe Biden fan. After four years, I'm not the biggest Barack Obama fan, either (and I'll get into why on that score later). But they're at least credible as big-league politicians. So much of the Romney/Ryan plan is so absurdly junior league, it's so far off-Broadway, it's practically in New Jersey.

Paul Ryan, a leader in the most aggressively and mindlessly partisan Congress in history, preaching bipartisanship? A private-equity parasite, Mitt Romney, who wants to enact a massive tax cut and pay for it without touching his own personal fortune-guaranteeing deduction, the carried-interest tax break - which keeps his own taxes below 15 percent despite incomes above $20 million?

The Romney/Ryan platform makes sense, and is not laughable, in only one context: if you're a multi-millionaire and you recognize that this is the only way to sell your agenda to mass audiences. But if you're not one of those rooting gazillionaires, you should laugh, you should roll your eyes, and it doesn't matter if you're the Vice President or an ABC reporter or a toll operator. You should laugh, because this stuff is a joke, and we shouldn't take it seriously. your social media marketing partner


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+276 # DorothyK 2012-10-13 08:48
WELL SAID, Matt Tabbi--My sentiments EXACTLY!! Yes, Joe Biden DID roll his eyes, interrupt, and laugh. And rightfully so! This was so over the top. Biden had his facts together and Ryan did NOT have anything together except the usual rhetoric.
I just don't understand why anyone would vote for such a transparent pair of wing nuts as the Romney/Ryan bunch. No one in their right mind would buy into the Republican slight-of-hand, BS.
+156 # Atia 2012-10-13 10:20
I will NEVER understand those "undecideds", ever! They must be like the SNL skit a few weeks ago, true underinformed voters! And those panels of undecideds that are interviewed after a debate, where did they ever find them? And why is there so much pandering to those ignoramuses, anyway? Isn't it extremely scary that those are the people who may well decide outcome?
+36 # Granny Weatherwax 2012-10-13 21:57
Well, actually, those I do not understand are the GOPers that are not millionaires.
After all Rmoney wrote the 47% off himself, so them all of the 47% write him off.
+84 # Cassandra2012 2012-10-13 13:11
Have we already forgotten the constant interruption by Romney of Obama and Lehrer! Over and over and over again?

Rudeness and interruption are clearly the Repug's regular tactics.
+28 # 2012-10-13 22:27
Quoting Cassandra2012:
Have we already forgotten the constant interruption by Romney of Obama and Lehrer! Over and over and over again?

Rudeness and interruption are clearly the Repug's regular tactics.

I agree with you seems to be acceptable if romney does it but not if Biden does it..
+18 # bigkahuna671 2012-10-14 14:38
Ryan tried the Republifascist/ Romney/Rove trick of repeating the same lies over and over, hoping Martha Raddatz and the rest of us would fall into their trap of actually believing the drivel he spewed. Fortunately for all of us, Joe Biden didn't fall asleep at the wheel as the Prez did in the first debate but rather used each lie to attack and correct. Paul Ryan's smirky smile and "Charlie McCarthy" eye-rolling only exposed him for what he really is, a lieing sack-of-manure who couldn't tell the truth because to do so would show everyone that he's just another wing-nut righty (sorry Ed Schultz for borrowing that from you) with a Me-Me-Me agenda designed to enrich himself and his sorry followers. May the Koch brothers, Adelson the corrupt, and the rest of their ilk go to the hottest place in the afterlife...VOT E DEMOCRAT ALL THE WAY!!!
-20 # jtatu 2012-10-15 12:13
It's no surprise that the crude, uncivil Taibbi would defend rudeness. If Biden had been in a courtroom he would have been held in contempt and punished.
+10 # bmiluski 2012-10-15 14:54
Really???? Then I suppose the same would have happened to romney. So I guess we're even. Even though our guy did it better.
+169 # indian weaver 2012-10-13 08:57
I like Taibbi's humorous tenor in his article, as well as facts. I sometimes have to hang and shake my head, and laugh when considering what a total genocidal wreck this romney and ryan are. and actually running to be my president? I quit. And obama and biden aren't doing the country much good either, if any good - look at crimes against humanity, the tar sands oil line destroying peoples lives such as the takeover of private property in Texas, and confiscation of private property is only the beginning of that outrage - among many of obama's outrages, and he's not going to change, he's sold out too. Laughing is a spiritually positive conscious option I've chosen as a cover for my tears of horror at what this country has become - ship wrecked and increasingly wretched.
+95 # readerz 2012-10-13 10:46
I agree, but I am voting for Obama, because he is trying to steer things a little to the left of center, while Romney will tip the boat over to the right. Obama and the Democrats in the Senate are trying to regulate chemicals in fracking; trying to regulate and put safety measures into all these technologies. Nobody should trust those oil companies, but they've wrested contracts from individuals, and Bush's fracking rules protect them.

The Tar Sands issue hasn't even begun to be discussed (and won't be on the major media): the worst danger is that it goes over the worst fault/earthquak e zone in the U.S.: past Yellowstone, past the New Madrid fault system (hasn't anybody heard of 1811 and the Mississippi running backwards?), over such a long distance that it will be very vulnerable. And all because they have to send that stuff to Texas? It isn't cheaper to send it that distance, and it is far too vulnerable. Just wait until the water resources of the upper Ohio river valley and in North Dakota are ruined by fracking, and there is no more clean water west of the Appalachians or east of the Rockies.
+64 # MarieLavoe 2012-10-13 12:41
We in Dallas just recently had 3 earth quakes (3.0)and they have now contributed it to fracking. South of Dallas there have been MANY earth quakes but so far no one has placed the blame on fracking at least it hasn't been publicized. Fracking SCARES me more than all of the other stuff.
+25 # KittatinyHawk 2012-10-13 18:21
Ohio also has the same problem I guess Corbett and his buddies are waiting to see Pa go down .... I hope the quakes are in their neighborhoods esp since many own empty mines
+17 # soularddave 2012-10-13 21:30
Don't forget Arkansas earthquakes.

Notice that the "American Gas Alliance" is a sponsor on NPR. I bet that quiets the reportage and discussionin that valuable medium.
+20 # X Dane 2012-10-13 22:24
I think it is time for the brave LONE STAR STATE to show courage and PROTEST. As long as we go like lams to the slaughter, that is exactly what we will be ...slaughtered.

The big oil and gas companies MUST be opposed, and I think if an angry uprising of citizens happen, the administration may be able to resist them too. The right wing will keep yelling that we need the jobs???
Do we need the jobs when we are killing ourselves and destroying the country in the process
+14 # indian weaver 2012-10-14 07:04
Even up here in nowhere around Cortez, CO in the Four Corners, fracking has displaced a home off its foundation from earthquaking, due to fracking next door. She had to move out, has filed a complaint with Colorado's Attorney General. It's bound to get worse as this well drilling continues here. However, rots of ruck. The fracking well operated by Bill Barrett Co. may be taken out someday, we can only hope, and I don't mean just removing the equipment. Hard to believe the government is allowing the takeover by the pipeline - even encouraging it obviously and ignoring The People's properties and lives, and it's taking over people's lives and properties in Texas. Shows how horrible has become our so called government.
+9 # KittatinyHawk 2012-10-13 18:19
East will be as depleted of clean water..Pa is forerunner on that. So then to the Ocean ... Water, water everywhere and not a drop to drink.

Isn't on Majore Media now TS is already a fight in Texas and I do not understand why if we are not allowing it in from Canada...

OB and Democrats better get their commitment to Environment in wonder Gore and others are not behind them.

We have four years now to get new Candidates but if the same people, esp undecided, third parties do what they did in these past four years....Well, perhaps we won't be here to have to worry about it.
+5 # Granny Weatherwax 2012-10-13 21:59
I guess you meant "a little to the left or Romney".
Center has become virtual, these days.
+200 # Barbara K 2012-10-13 08:58
One thing that has been irritating me and should irritate us all is the way the media interviews Romney or Ryan and they spout their lies and BS and it is left at that. Why doesn't the interviewer correct them instead of letting the lies stand as truth? They are just helping to pass the lies and BS on and that isn't right. It can be stopped right there. They would stop their lying if they were called out on each one at every opportunity. The people who are so uninformed go by what is said on the news reports, etc. No wonder they are so misinformed when the news media helps to pass on the falsehoods. Glad to see that the Vice President had the courage to take on the lies of Ryan. More need to do the same thing.


The alternative is disgracefully unbearable.
+17 # CL38 2012-10-13 14:39
The mainstream media is almost completely owned and controlled by Republicans!

As most of us know, that's why financial support for alternative press sources like RSN is so important.
+25 # mdhome 2012-10-13 14:48
+20 # X Dane 2012-10-13 22:35
I totally agree with you, but some reporters are trying Soledad O'brien sure is and Andrea Mitchel is also showing a lot more courage lately. I think they realize that this is not an "exiting" election....If these two awful guys R+R were to win it would be the ruination of the country and us all.
+12 # Barbara K 2012-10-14 12:25
X Dane: Thanks, and I totally agree with you too. We just cannot let the R/Rs steal this election too. We have to make it clear that WE are not going to sell OUR country to them. They and their millionaire big corps think they can spend enough money to buy it. Well, OUR COUNTRY IS NOT FOR SALE ! Don't sell it.

VOTE DEMOCRATIC ALL THE WAY, so we can clean out some states too.

The alternative is glaringly destructive.
+2 # Independentgal 2012-10-15 09:34
The alternative is also FRIGHTENINGLY destructive too!
+106 # BicParker 2012-10-13 09:00
Myth Romney!!
-219 # Dumbledorf 2012-10-13 09:02
LET'S NOT FORGET THAT Vice President Joe Biden has been instructed by Catholic bishops not to present himself for Communion; he has been the subject of many reprimands; and he has been banned from speaking at Catholic institutions. Most of these sanctions are a function of his pro-abortion views.
+237 # Reductio Ad Absurdum 2012-10-13 09:42
He doesn't have pro-abortion views. He supports pro-choice RIGHTS.
+131 # ispeakup 2012-10-13 11:00
Well said! The right-wingers prefer the term 'Pro ABORTION' rather than 'PRO CHOICE' because it sounds more EVIL and sinister. NO ONE is PRO-abortion except as a last resort in dire cases when it is the only humane CHOICE. It that case, is the RIGHT of the WOMAN to make that choice for her body, not the Supreme Court nor any other political BODY! I'm always confused as to why the Right-wing is so concerned about the fetus BEFORE it is born but forgets about it's well-being AFTER it is born.
+41 # KittatinyHawk 2012-10-13 18:35
Right Wingers are Pro Life except when it comes to clean environment, clean air, clean water, safe food, safe medicine.
ProLifers are racists. ProLifers believe in War. ProLifers believe in Torture. ProLifers believe in Killing Creator's Creatures ex Buffalo, Wolves, Pa refuses to help the Brown Bat, and wildlife (discontinued research into affects of Fracking on Wildlife, and Water).
Please I want to know of one Positive thing ProLifer's Stand for? They hate Gays, everyone but themselves. ProLife has a whole new meaning since ReaGun and it has nothing to do with Postive Thinking Towards Life at all.
Rethugs, their Corporations, Churches, temples are Anti Life therefore Anti Choice.
Women are held even in the USA in low esteem. We are a hair above a slug. Look at the proof of women victimized...He ck I bet that 80% of Politicians' wives are abused or put in their place. I would not be surprised it Tea Party and Rethugs do not beat their wives. Obey and Serve is very real in Cult Religious communities, They are taught that women should be beaten, kept in their place. Mormons are not better in this backward belief. Women cannot have any say in their Faith. No allowance on Boards. I do not know if true for Evangelicals... but I have seen enough of them mistreat their wives and teach their sons that this is okay.
Pro Life whose?
+9 # 666 2012-10-14 06:22
the only reason they claim to be pro-life is so they'll have more bodies to thrown into their endless wars of fascist tyranny - that and, well, a psychopathic desire make people suffer and die and many other ways
+16 # ghostperson 2012-10-13 22:51
No one is "pro" abortion. People are "pro" choice to make the hardest decision a women will ever face and live with it for the rest of her life. The right to lifers are hypocrits. They are pro-life until one is born, then, you are on your own. But boy are they pro war and the death penalty. How does that square?
+182 # CAMUS1111 2012-10-13 10:10
So? To hell with the bishops; they are irrelevant neanderthals who should spend more time protecting altar boys than tryng to enforce their absurd, archaic views.
+14 # 2012-10-13 22:40
Quoting CAMUS1111:
So? To hell with the bishops; they are irrelevant neanderthals who should spend more time protecting altar boys than tryng to enforce their absurd, archaic views.

That about sums it up..
+166 # bluesapphire48 2012-10-13 10:10
Good for him! How many of those bishops tolerated their priests abusing (sexually) their parishioners? Probably quite a few, I'd bet. The Church's misogynistic stands are one reason church attendance is falling off. They need to wake up and Joe Biden is absolutely right to take the stand that their medieval views will not affect his governance.
-7 # KittatinyHawk 2012-10-13 18:46
You have facts? You sound like the aholes that have an organization against Catholic Priests because only Priests have had Sodomy with young boys.
That was scary to even realize how many evil minded people there are no less Stupid.

I know you have no clue about Catholics, but we do love our Church. We do not go changing Religions every time something is not the way we want it. We are working from within. May have taken a long time, but then anything good is worth doing well not sloppily.
And our Grandparents and Parents had the unquestioning Faith that did believe our Church, Priests etc could do no wrong but we never thought anyone who took the role of Leadership in Religion would...ooopps Were we wrong, every Faith and Nationality has been mistreating women and children since Creation or Evolution.
So want to smear the Church than go back in History because we the Roman Catholic Church didn't invent Rape, Sodomy, Murder. The 'dissatisfied wimps' that came after do not seem to be any better except in stealing money so they can be millionaires.
If you look around and talk to most of us Catholics, we all think people should mind their own business, look in mirrors on more subjects than what women decisions are. American Catholics have been a lot smarter, more open, definitely ahead of other Faiths.
I hope that all those children who cry rape really never were...but Shame on them if they weren't
0 # bmiluski 2012-10-15 15:01
Thank you. The neo-cons coined the term pro-abortion so that the sheeple could follow them.
+3 # bmiluski 2012-10-15 15:07
First of all, there was enough evidence to convict several priests.
Second, this is NOT about you, so get over yourself.
This is about bishops/pastors turning a blind eye to the abuse of children. Also, nuns are not allowed to say mass, and live in poorer conditions then the priests. Hell, priests wear a wedding ring made of gold, the nuns...a lesser metal...silver. Why, because they are considered 2nd class citizens. (I know this because I went through 8 years of Catholic Schools)..This is also called mysoginy. And YES, Catholics do change or abondon their religion. I did and I once wanted to become a nun. Then I woke up.
+100 # Art947 2012-10-13 10:19
Quoting Dumbledorf:
LET'S NOT FORGET THAT Vice President Joe Biden has been instructed by Catholic bishops not to present himself for Communion; he has been the subject of many reprimands; and he has been banned from speaking at Catholic institutions. Most of these sanctions are a function of his pro-abortion views.

The Catholic Church leadership - please note that they are all men who denigrate anyone who is not just like them - have lost all credibility in the 21st Century. Heck, they weren't even credible in the 20th! The fact that they were so slow to look at pedophilia in their organization, their interest in increasing the wealth of their organization rather than serving the needs of the poor, their inhumanity to those who are "different" from them, all call to question their value in the American society. However, The VP has indicated that he follows the tenets of his religion on a personal level. He refuses to be a Taliban imposing his personal religious beliefs on those whose beliefs are just as valid but different from his is the height of the American value principle.

If Dumbledorf heard these Catholic principles being proposed by a follower of Islam he would probably be complaining about Sharia Law and terrorism. What hypocrisy!
+35 # Phlippinout 2012-10-13 17:41
However, I would like to take a moment to thank the nuns that do everything on all fronts and get slapped around by the elite men at the Vatican. If you have ever dealt with nuns in poor communities, they are organized and compassionate.
+11 # KittatinyHawk 2012-10-13 18:58
They accepted their lives but now in a new better trend, Nuns are going to believe in themselves. I hope one day they can have children instead of serving ours.
I hope they take over Boards that govern the Schools since they have been the teachers and guiders along with the Brothers.
I went to Catholic School for 12 years, I knew in my own Family women who chose to do missionary work. But many thought they were doing the family a service like the men to military, many a woman joined convents when they should have been mothers. Thank you for giving me your lives, compassion you are very strong, secure Women.
+6 # KittatinyHawk 2012-10-13 18:54
As I said above and before Cast not a Stone at Catholic Faith if you do not cast at every Faith out there. They were all Created by Man. God didnot come here and start Judaism. Man started Religion for Dominance and Submission.
I have community of whack jobs who keep their familys inbound on Church Property except to go to work. They beat the women and show the men child that this is what God told them to do. I forget what Faith they are but their Ministry certainly makes lots of money in those collection plates Millionaires....

Biden represents most Catholic Men who have grown up with their Faith, and Respect Women. Too bad you do not try to do the same... Their is nothing wrong with Islam anymore than any other Man made Religion. It got people thru very bad times in their personal lives.

I do not go to Church as it was against wishes of God/Jesus to have idols, Statues, I do not pay for Religion. I Believe because I know there is something greater than all of who degrade Catholics are no better than Republicans. Racism isn't just about Color
+52 # readerz 2012-10-13 10:33
The Bishops have a lot of nerve. Many women have their lives saved if they have prenatal care, but the Republicans have taken that away, and will continue to unravel medical care in the U.S. for everybody.

Do you realize what Bishop had his Bishopric taken away in Jesus's time? That was Judas Iscariot. These Bishops take away the only support that the poor and widows have. Do they think that God doesn't see?
+4 # KittatinyHawk 2012-10-13 19:01
Where do you get this crap There were no Bishops in Jesus' time.

Man...created the Church in his own need Jesus had no need. Judas was used by the Israelites to deliver/snitch on some minor infraction Jesus did. therefore the Romans had to arrest him. Kept the blood of their own off their hands in case Jesus was actually a Prophet. DUH

You cannot read History now it seems you have less knowledge of Religion no less Catholocism
0 # bmiluski 2012-10-15 15:10
Actually, Judas was incolusion with Jesus to make Jesus a martyr. He went to the Romans because Jesus wanted him to.
-22 # colpow 2012-10-13 10:48
And, we should care about this because . . ?
+10 # KittatinyHawk 2012-10-13 19:05
Thank You these are Republicans who again prove that they have no sense just racial hate. Not a one of them Catholic with a bit of knowledge of History of Man or Religion.

We should not care. Biden made a remark that means...Religio n and State have no business crossing into the other. With that neither have the right to Tell Women what to do. Biden is a Man who is comfortable with himself. I have always liked him, dissagreed at times but all in all this is JOE America, widower, single parent, worked his way up a ladder in order to represent the middle class and poor. God Bless him in all Faiths
+57 # reiverpacific 2012-10-13 11:01
Quoting Dumbledorf:
LET'S NOT FORGET THAT Vice President Joe Biden has been instructed by Catholic bishops not to present himself for Communion; he has been the subject of many reprimands; and he has been banned from speaking at Catholic institutions. Most of these sanctions are a function of his pro-abortion views.

Big-deal: let them eat communion crackers and shut up or pay taxes on their massive ill-begotten wealth like most churches with too much power and control over too many of the ignorant or cynical, and keep their mucky hands off the choir boys and acolytes.
Speakin' of cynical, I'll bet that they LOVE Scalia and Thomas, Opus Dei gang-bangers both and corruptly cynical as Hell!
Biden is like a babe in arms compared to that lot.
+21 # RLF 2012-10-13 15:32
I want them to pay the same rate as I do for social security...why the hell is there a cut off at all?
+2 # Mannstein 2012-10-13 17:06
Vote Republican. They'll do away with Social Security but keep the FICA and call it a tax surcharge.
+6 # ghostperson 2012-10-13 22:54
This was tongue in cheek folks.
-13 # Mannstein 2012-10-13 15:38
The catholic bishops also condemned Paul Ryan for being a disciple of Ayn Rand. Rand's philosophy is counter to catholic social teaching which is found in the Encyclical Rerum Novarum written by Pope Leo XIII. The bishops have every right under the First Amendment of the Constitution to remind Ryan or Biden that they are in error as far as catholic teaching is concerned, your anti catholic bigotry notwithstanding .
+18 # James Smith 2012-10-13 16:11
It isn't anti-catholic bigotry, it's facts. Wen it's true, it is neither insults or prejudice, it is a statement of the observed facts.

That's the unpleasant thing about facts, no matter how much you dislike them or deny them, they remain facts.
0 # Mannstein 2012-10-13 16:55
So every member of Opus Dei is a gang- banger? That's not fact it's a lie. In that regard you're no better than Mittens and the Twerp.

There are even women in Opus Dei. I suppose they must also be gang-bangers because you say so.
+2 # KittatinyHawk 2012-10-13 19:15
It isn't anti Catholic have all the Facts. Halleluiah we have been waiting for the second coming and I guess you have mandated yourself it...
+36 # CL38 2012-10-13 16:32

Catholics, nor any other religion, has any right to impose their narrow vieww and interpretations of reality on the entire US (or world) population.
+21 # ispeakup 2012-10-13 18:27
RIGHT ON!!! Religion is the root of all matter what the religion. If there were no tax exemptions for churches and their 'Holier than Thou's' we could pay off our debts and have enough left over to care for 'the least of those' in need.
0 # dovelane1 2012-10-16 16:30
Ispeakup - I don't believe that "religion," itself is the bottom line reason for a;; conflicts. Rahter, it is the "My way or the highway" attitude that religion fosters or supports.

Most religious people, no matter what the religion, have come to believe their belief system is perfect. When that happens, they usually can't admit to the possibility they might be wrong. Most of the time, their self-images are tied in with their belief system, so any threat to their belief system is seen as a threat to their self-image as well.

You have the same problem with EVERY zealot, with every person who believes they know the absolute truth, so don't try to give them any "facts." Most of the problems begin when people learn to believe their assumptions of opinions are facts. Facts can be proven where assumptions and opinions have yet to be proeven.

Tim Walz (Minnesota Dem district 1) on a recent debate says he has a sign on his desk that reads "When facts contradict ideologies, then ideologies need to change." Every politician, every relgious leader, every leader of any kind should have that sign on their desk.

Again, this won't work if the person believes their assumptions and opinions are facts.
+10 # KittatinyHawk 2012-10-13 19:16
+10 # brux 2012-10-13 18:06
I don't know why you got 8 minuses for that very interesting comment. Where and which Bishops said that. Is there a link to it?

I agree that Rand's philosophy, if you can even call that a philosophy is counter to every moral code ... I think that's why Republicans and criminals seem to like it so much.

That is why I really dislike the phony parts of these campaigns where they are always talking about the loves of their wives and children, their faith, and the shaking hands and slapping each other on the back like buddies.
+5 # Mannstein 2012-10-13 19:51
Check out this Link:
0 # dovelane1 2012-10-16 16:34
brux - I don't think it's really love if a person only lonves their own child, or their own pet. i don't think love has borders like that.

it may have more to do with pride of ownership, or co-dependence of one form or another.

I suspect that it bothers you because you know it's just another lie they are trying to foster. It's another case of style, not substance.
0 # KittatinyHawk 2012-10-13 19:13
You were present at this forum Boy you who are not Catholics know so much about nothing. Gossip mongers like some Reality TV Show
Priests, Bishops have no rights in telling anyone anything unless it is breaking the Laws of God. They can speak publicly on their Faith, and they can speak But unless a Parishoner committs Mortal Sin and is not Remorseful, the Church cannot tell anyone anything concerning their lives.
No one has anymore rights in the USA than anyone else.
Catholic Church can tell us what they would prefer us not to read, however, they cannot make us not read it.
Only people in the Dark Ages are right here in River City...
+4 # KittatinyHawk 2012-10-13 19:07
Same with all Churches, Temples etc let them all pay At Least Catholic Priests arent' millionaires with many vacation homes like NitMitt and so many Religious Leaders. I imagine all Faiths except Muslim are in bed with Politicians and their like
+5 # 666 2012-10-14 06:26
i agree. i think the minute a church enters political discourse, they should lose their tax exempt status (permanently) and go straight to the 90% bracket. but wait, they are corporate-peopl e too... can we jail the whole catholic church institution? use rico to seize their assets?
+41 # ericlipps 2012-10-13 11:57
Quoting Dumbledorf:
LET'S NOT FORGET THAT Vice President Joe Biden has been instructed by Catholic bishops not to present himself for Communion; he has been the subject of many reprimands; and he has been banned from speaking at Catholic institutions. Most of these sanctions are a function of his pro-abortion views.

And this is relevant because . . . ?

The Catholic bishops don't get to pick the president of the United States, however much they think God gives them that right. They only get to cast their votes like other citizens. And if they try to bully ordinary Catholics politically, they deserve to be called on it.
0 # KittatinyHawk 2012-10-13 19:18
Anti Catholics have a different opinion and will give you the 'facts about Jack'.
they are no different than any pulpit, Temple stage they all think they should tell you who to vote for....that is where we must say yes dear and do what we know is best for USA
+39 # MidwestDick 2012-10-13 13:00
Don't know where you picked up that no communion for Joe schtick but I am pretty sure it is not in force and probably never was. And lest we forget, Paul Ryan was also reprimanded by the Bishops for his unchristian take on the treatment of the poor.
+16 # Billy Bob 2012-10-13 13:22
THANK YOU! That was the reply I was hoping someone else would make.
+22 # reiverpacific 2012-10-13 14:05
Quoting MidwestDick:
Don't know where you picked up that no communion for Joe schtick but I am pretty sure it is not in force and probably never was. And lest we forget, Paul Ryan was also reprimanded by the Bishops for his unchristian take on the treatment of the poor.

And in addition, on MSNBC, Lawrence O'Donnell interviewed a Mormon bigwig who criticized Romney's 47% comments harshly, and who was very clear about those comments not representing the tenets of the Mormon faith.
But i'truth, let's keep off the holy-roller stuff; it doesn't belong in any debate other than theological, which doesn't belong here.
If they want to intervene (and they do) tax the shit outa them -then we might get a Universal Health Care system worth fighting for!
+5 # KittatinyHawk 2012-10-13 19:26
Too bad Mr Unknown BigWig didn't ask for him to be removed from the Church for destroying families lives by leaving them without jobs and homes, letting children go hungry.
Won't do that, love that money cause that is what Religion is Money, Money, Money
+14 # James Smith 2012-10-13 14:51
Given the dismal record of the Catholic church in just about everything, my first reaction would be to give a nod of approval to anything they condemn.

I realize that wouldn't always be right, but the percentages would certainly be on my side.
-8 # KittatinyHawk 2012-10-13 19:31
Dismal Record of the Catholic Church funny you would all be Jewish if not for the Catholic Church.
Most of the White Faiths were cry babies who left to have wives and multiple ones at that. Instead of standing like men, they ran. Instead of making the changes needed, they ran.
Not impressed with any phony Faith esp those who came after.
If I remember Churches, Temples et al were started by Men to keep dominance over the People so as to provide for themselves. HMMM similar to today. One difference is Priests do not get millions of dollars in salary. Nor do they have off shore bank accounts and many homes. They have the right to go to any Parish in the World and Rome...Vatican but they own them not.

How is your record as a human being? Perfect. I think not.
+4 # jky1291 2012-10-14 05:03
Your previous posts accurately pointing out that all religions are man made, primarily to control the behaviors and minds of the less discerning, are to be highly commended. But, I suspect your Catholic rearing prevents you from appreciating the fact that Jesus was a Jew, and that Christianity is a subsequent cult similarly created by Jews and others that diverged from the Jewish faith.
+3 # Mannstein 2012-10-13 19:41
Great then you can agree with Paul Ryan's budget proposals and be sure to vote Republican against your own self interest.
+1 # KittatinyHawk 2012-10-13 19:24
As a matter of fact, they have stopped people due to Religious Treason (not always true), committed Mortal Sins, esp if they did not repent from receiving the Communion.
I do not know if they have kept this Dark Ages punishment but God and Jesus never told anyone to Punish anyone. They would take care of that.
Being chastised is usually done quietly with discretion so if either of these Public men were 'taken under the wing' so to would be none of our business!

Church is not so narrow minded to scorn any one who has been a leader in their community or life. Do not know if Ryan has earned that. But I know Joe has done many good works, and I know he has seen his share of sorrow. Perhaps it is time we busied ourselves in our own lives and making USA a better place ?
+3 # reiverpacific 2012-10-14 09:43
Quoting KittatinyHawk:
As a matter of fact, they have stopped people due to Religious Treason (not always true), committed Mortal Sins, esp if they did not repent from receiving the Communion.
I do not know if they have kept this Dark Ages punishment but God and Jesus never told anyone to Punish anyone. They would take care of that.
Being chastised is usually done quietly with discretion so if either of these Public men were 'taken under the wing' so to would be none of our business!

Church is not so narrow minded to scorn any one who has been a leader in their community or life. Do not know if Ryan has earned that. But I know Joe has done many good works, and I know he has seen his share of sorrow. Perhaps it is time we busied ourselves in our own lives and making USA a better place ?

In the name o' the wee man, give us a bloody break -this a socio-political forum NOT a Theological one. Back on subject perrrleeze.
+10 # Cassandra2012 2012-10-13 13:14
Meaning he actually abides by the bill of rights and laws for ALL Americans (including women and girls) and these sanctimonious bishops do not?
+1 # KittatinyHawk 2012-10-13 19:34
We do not know that these Bishops what a joke boy I wish Biden would read this...he would be laughing at everyone here for their lack of knowledge.
He would probably be very upset that he could have given the impression he did not love his Faith.
I have never met anyone no matter what Faith that wasn't a bore once they left the lower level. They then become no different than any ladder climber again...I see no difference in any Faith except perhaps Buddhists, Confucianism but most other Faiths are hypocritical.
+1 # jky1291 2012-10-14 05:10
"I see no difference in any Faith except perhaps Buddhists, Confucianism but most other Faiths are hypocritical."

Thank you for perceptively recognizing the difference between most religions and these philosophies of personal belief.
+9 # CL38 2012-10-13 14:36
All of these 'reprimands' and sanctions from the Church are to Biden's credit!

Biden shows courage and principles.

And the Catholic Church? It's three concerns? Continually enriching it's bulging coffers; limiting damage pedophilia has done to the church (NOT to the children); adamantly maintaining rigid authoritarian male rule in the church; denying women leadership and full participation.

Yet, it's only women of the church -- nuns -- who've demonstrated real leadership in fighting for the poor & victims of war, and shown a dedication to justice for everyone. They've also shown great courage in gently challenging the church on all it's failures.
+9 # Mannstein 2012-10-13 15:12
And let us also not forget that Ryan taking Ayn Rand's philosophy as his own has been condemned by the Catholic Bishops because it is contrary to Catholic social teaching.
0 # KittatinyHawk 2012-10-13 19:37
Bull Crap Where do you get this nonsense on Idol or Dancing with the Stars perhaps some tabloid in your supermarket.
That condemning for reading is crap. We wouldn't be allowed to go to College if we couldn't read books on that list. In fact I went to Catholic School and besides the porn we had to read many books that Church thought Blasphemous to the Church itself.
It was called learning to think and reason.
+3 # RLF 2012-10-13 15:34
Catholic church=Taliban!
+1 # Mannstein 2012-10-13 17:00
I haven't seen a Catholic prelate shoot a 14 year old girl in the head and because she didn't die immediately vow to do it again.
+5 # CAMUS1111 2012-10-13 18:33
But did you see the priest molest her brother?
+1 # Mannstein 2012-10-13 19:29
I've also seen Rabbis, Protestant ministers, Boy Scout leaders, Sport Coaches, Kindergarden Operators etc. do the same. Does that mean those oraganizations are also Taliban? Nor did I see a priest molest her brother in Pakistan a Moslem country where Christians are barely tolerated and beheaded at the drop of a hat.
+1 # Billy Bob 2012-10-13 21:28
As a Catholic, I agreed with you completely until you dragged Islam into it. No one is saying Catholics should be more like Muslims. What you're refering to is the action of people in the 3rd world who are living in a current dark ages. Their religion is inconsequential.

Other than that, you're absolutely right. The attacks on priests are very hypocritical coming from human beings in any walk of life, because this is a social sickness that permeats all of humanity. No one is immune. Not even protestants, atheists, or agnostics.
+1 # ghostperson 2012-10-13 23:01
Great repartee!
+1 # jky1291 2012-10-14 05:13
Spanish Inquisition?
+1 # KittatinyHawk 2012-10-13 19:38
Your a Tea Party
+4 # KittatinyHawk 2012-10-13 18:26
Bull. Catholic Church cannot forbid a Catholic in good standing to not receive the Sacrament. He sure might have been spoken with, but Biden believes as We All should that there is to be seperation between Church and State...that is from God's mouth to my Eats, then Jesus's mouth to my ears if I am to believe the Bible is Credible at all. Not?
NO Pro Abortion, He just doesn't feel Church, Government or anyone has the right to enslave women. It is our Body as he said, and the call is between woman and doctor. Take it or leave it, but women are not going to take anyone, anywhere telling us anything. Time is coming that we are going to be a lot harder to contain than the Taliban.
+3 # Eldon J. Bloedorn 2012-10-13 21:24
Thank God or someone who has the guts to not partake in communion. I thought canibalism was illegal. Isn't the sybolic "eating" of Jesus on the fringe of canibalism? A little joke. I spoke to Jesus and asked him if he was coming "back." He emphatically said "NO!"
I asked why. He said, "those nut job Christians may want to build A HUGE BON FIRE and roast me, eat me for real." I said, "well, you have a good point."
+3 # 2012-10-13 22:38
Quoting Dumbledorf:
LET'S NOT FORGET THAT Vice President Joe Biden has been instructed by Catholic bishops not to present himself for Communion; he has been the subject of many reprimands; and he has been banned from speaking at Catholic institutions. Most of these sanctions are a function of his pro-abortion views.

You do have a reliable source for that?
+1 # X Dane 2012-10-13 22:41


+6 # ghostperson 2012-10-13 22:49
So? A church full of men who wear dresses and prey on little boys is not exactly a paragon of moral authority.

God doesn't need a middle man. Churches are bureaucracies who as often as not are found wanting in the conduct of their earthly mission.

Good for Biden to have preserved respect for humanity in the face of man made rules.
+2 # rockieball 2012-10-14 07:14
So???? It's separation of Church and state and it's a two way street. The Church cannot dictate to the Government or the elected officials what laws to pass and what to say. After all this is not a 100% Catholic country, nor is it 100% Jewish, !00% Islamic or 100 Evangelical. We cannot pass laws based on one religions or any religions dictation. In fact today's' Religions are tomorrows myths.
+2 # Working Class 2012-10-14 15:31
Quoting Dumbledorf:
LET'S NOT FORGET THAT Vice President Joe Biden has been instructed by Catholic bishops not to present himself for Communion; he has been the subject of many reprimands; and he has been banned from speaking at Catholic institutions. Most of these sanctions are a function of his pro-abortion views.

Dumbledrorf: Did you listen to Biden? He is personally against arbortion. What he says he won't do is force his beleifs on others by using the government to push his religious beliefs. Might have something to do with a quaint document known as the Constitution. The fact that he is banned by the Bishops justs shows that the American Taliban is alive and well.
+106 # HollywoodBrat 2012-10-13 09:17
Right on Matt! R & R and their handlers are aiming for all those folks who know the names of each and every Kardashian, can give you line and verse on Lindsay Lohan's rap sheet, but haven't the slightest idea of who their congressional representative is. It is part and parcel of the Romney/Ryan/Rep ublican strategy to feed all these low-information voters the maximum amount of toro feces they can, telling them all along that it's a juicy hamburger. No wonder they call 'em "Whoppers!"
+75 # giraffee2012 2012-10-13 09:26
And I will mail this to each GOP relative/friend I know (even if they never speak to me again)

Vote DEM all the way or our future will be dumped into the hands of the dictators who own all the $$ (and therefore us)

Mittens/Ryan: "You can fool some of the people some of the time ...... not all of the time" and the VP debate shows the latter!

Good summary Matt - of the Rolling Stones!
+70 # tswhiskers 2012-10-13 09:29
I'm so glad that some journalists have decided to stop wasting their time and the public's by giving airtime to each "side" of every question and then thinking they have covered the issue. Matt is right. The time is overdue when the media should be calling the Rep. platform dishonest and for the rich alone. Newspapers and TV have for far too long kowtowed to the Conservatives, allowing them to get away with half-truths and lies. Given the past typical gutlessness of the media, one might call Martha Radditz "courageous" in calling out Ryan for his evasions and refusals to answer some questions. Ditto Biden of course. We learned a good deal about the R/R platform, or rather the lack thereof. One wonders why the Reps., having been pretty good at covering up the truth of their agenda with Fox News propaganda, agreed to the debates at all. I can only think that debates have become a tradition in presidential elections and the Reps. figured they had better not duck them. It's a good thing. Now the Rep. agenda is being shown for the naked thing it is, namely a plan to get and keep this country's wealth at the very top of the economy and keep the vast majority of Americans unemployed, pregnant and poverty-stricke n. Keep in mind it's only been Democrats who have been creating jobs of late.
+40 # Dave_s Not Here 2012-10-13 11:28
"Newspapers and TV have for far too long kowtowed to the Conservatives"

Whom do you think OWNS these newspapers and TV?
+11 # tswhiskers 2012-10-13 14:20
Yes, I know that papers and TV stations are no longer family owned. And I'm well aware of the self-censorship of the editors and reporters of the Media. I have said in other blogs on RSN that I suspect that journalism is no longer a middle-class profession, that journalists' pay has been jacked up over the years precisely so they would have something to lose when their reporter instincts clash with management and would give in to management to keep their comfy jobs. Dan Rather who now works for AXS TV kept his mouth shut while he worked for CBS to keep his multimillion dollar job. Money is an easy way to keep the 4th Estate muzzled and has worked fantastically well.
+55 # L. Sabransky 2012-10-13 09:32
If journalists are to fulfill their role as originally intended by our founders- as part of our system's checks and balances - protecting the public - in fact, the last bastion of protection in a system mired by special interests - they must do as Biden did. And, I would argue that, unlike what Tabbai says - that this is less than objective - it would be impartial, if journalists would only criticize and call out lies with every single elected and appointed official.
As Amy Goodman of Democracy Now! said, when I saw her speak recently, the press corp covering the White House, for a long time, has traded access for acquiescence. Administrations , including Obama's, make it crystal clear that if the president is questioned too harshly, those who "dare" to will lose access to doing so. She said that press should be "cover power, not cover for power!"
I feel more strongly about this issue than any candidate or party. I have very low expectations of my elected/appoint ed officials in our current greed-based system. But, those who are, by design, supposed to be an extension of the citizenry - supposed to protect us from harm - but have become the fox watching the chicken coop? Become, as Amy said, "for the state, rather than the 4th Estate?" That should be of greatest concern to us.
Thank you for reminding us of this national tragedy, Matt Tabbai!
0 # dovelane1 2012-10-16 16:51
I just finished reading a biography of the Beatles. All of them dabbled in drugs, with John Lennon being the biggest druggie of the group. the journalists in Britain did the same thing - in order to close to the Beatles, to get the inside stories, they had to ignore what they saw happening. Paul and John were both quoted as saying that all agreed to do what they good to maintain their clean-cut image. It was bad for business if they didn't. The press went along with them.

I don't know if it's better in England now or not, but this is not just an American issue.

The main problem is most people love the lie that saves their pride, but never the unflattering truth. What you end up with are people who will tell the part of the truth that makes them look good, or, at least doesn't make them look bad. But never the whole truth.
+81 # citizen vox 2012-10-13 09:45
Biden laughed for all of us. The entire country should pick a time to all collectively laugh. But I guess we did and that's on Nov 6. Let's all go to the polls and laugh at Romney/Ryan. That's the laugh that has teeth. Sorry Green Party, I don't do protest votes for 3rd parties when we might just get Romney/Ryan for lack of a few thousand votes for Obama. I'll protest the government, in general, on the streets and legislation. This election is too critical to throw a protest vote.
0 # KittatinyHawk 2012-10-13 19:42
I will hope to see more third parties get into local and State if not Congress and Senate. Time for them to walk the walk instead of just talking and talking.
We have some excellent representatives of third Parties, now we need to stop the two party or straight voting. Only way these Players will get to learn, lead.
+84 # Erica 2012-10-13 10:04
Let's not forget that the Council of Catholic Bishops condemned Paul Ryan's budget as immoral because of his treatment of the poor.
+44 # bluesapphire48 2012-10-13 10:13
I wish Biden had brought out that fact when Radditz asked them both about how their Roman Catholicism affected their positions.
+1 # KittatinyHawk 2012-10-13 19:43
He Did
+3 # X Dane 2012-10-13 23:44
I don't know if he did, but he got so many of the important points out. The facts of Ryan asking for Stimulus money, while constantly saying that the Stimulus was such a waste and didn't work. And Biden telling everybody to check out Ryan's letters on his website.
He definitely got him in so many ways.

+2 # MarieLavoe 2012-10-13 12:48
Really? I did not know that.
+6 # Mannstein 2012-10-13 15:23
Read Pope Leo XIII Encyclical Rerum Novarum which deals with Catholic teaching on social justice. From that it is clear that Ryan is out of sync with his Church. The Bishops, regardless of what some anti Catholics on this blog might think, have every right to remind Ryan of this fact.
+6 # James Smith 2012-10-13 16:15
"Anti-catholic? " Do you mean pro-human rights and pro-rational thinking? You can't be either of those and not me against the catholic church.
-4 # KittatinyHawk 2012-10-13 19:44
Smith must be related to Mormons. Racist
-3 # Mannstein 2012-10-13 19:46
It's a human right to kill a child when it's in the mother's birth cannal and also a human right to let the poor starve because they are unproductive. Take your pick vote Democrat or Republican but not both.
+7 # Billy Bob 2012-10-13 21:30
I disagree with you here. It's a false equivalency. The abortion debate is really about the Separation of Church and State. Whereas, the economic debate is entirely appropriate.
0 # dovelane1 2012-10-16 17:01
Mann -If you happen to believe as I do, that ensoulment takes place at birth, then you are not killing a "person," just a potential person.

Of course, that's just my opinion. I can't prove that any more than the conservative right can prove that ensoulment takes place at conception, or at 17 weeks when the fetus starts producing blood.

The main problem I have with Christian thinking is they want to make laws based on their opinions.

One of the hypocricies of the Repubs is they believe in the rights of the individual, UNTIL it comes to a woman having the right to control her own body, or until it comes to a person being gay, or until a person happens to be poor or disadvantaged, or what have you.

All discrimination is a form of xenophobia, which is the fear of or mistrust of anyone who is different from the prevailing norm.

All xenophobia leads to the exclusion of others, rather than the inclusion of others, based on the assumptions people have made about others.
+1 # Billy Bob 2012-10-13 21:29
I agree with you here.
0 # KittatinyHawk 2012-10-13 19:42
Get off the Church, who cares
I am sure they are patting him on his back too
+36 # TurboKitty 2012-10-13 10:07
Joe Biden is my favorite politician ... it was amazing the way he grilled Gonzales and he's amazing still ... love me some Joe!!!
+82 # lisamoskow 2012-10-13 10:14
Very good article!

A comment about the media which is totally unobjective:

I do not agree that Obama's speech was a total failure at all--yes his mood was
not jubilant, but how happy would anyone be to be debating the empty suit?

Romney stepped all over the moderator
and was obnoxiously aggressive the whole time. Did the so-called liberal media (NPR etc.) ever call him on that? I didn't hear it. Next to Romney any normal, sober being would look "depressed".

Now Biden, quick to call a lie a lie, is called aggressive.

Raddatz was wonderful.
+29 # readerz 2012-10-13 10:40
Raddatz was OK, only asking one women's issue, and that on abortion, and not asking for facts but personal opinion. But on every other issue, she at least didn't let Ryan dominate with lies.

Lehrer acted as though he has Alzheimer's at the first debate. I don't know if he does or not, but it is totally wrong for a moderator to let a discussion get so out of hand. He asked no hard questions of Romney, and let Romney talk way over his time. Yet, I felt that the President should have said much more: there was much more that should have, could have, been said. But nothing is ever gained by should've could've. I support Pres. Obama, but he needs to convince those who usually only see him through Fox glasses.
+5 # KittatinyHawk 2012-10-13 19:49
Lehrer thought he is a bore elitist...very bad choice.
Had the President gotten obnoxious then we would have sniveled and heard worse about him. He acted like he should have. I wish he had spoken like Biden but perhaps now he will have better ammunition
I wish the news would bring up the latest Bain Destruction, or OB bring it up that 3500 more jobs gone, outsourced and a town/businesses going to be affected horrendously.
+48 # Brooklyn Girl 2012-10-13 10:21
I loved Biden's "Lloyd Bentsen" moment, after Ryan invoked Kennedy. And yes, Kennedy did lower the top tax bracket --- from 91% to 65%! If Ryan wants to go back to the Kennedy-era tax rates, that would be just fine with me.
+9 # Old Uncle Dave 2012-10-13 10:22
South Park fans recognize romneypaul as underpants gnomes.
+38 # jorspe 2012-10-13 10:31
The way this is playing in the media is both unbelievable and irrational. Taibbi is right on the money. Nonetheless, it is highly disturbing that so many Americans, especially among the rural middle class, are so easily persuaded to vote against there own best interests! I too think much more highly of Joe Biden now than I did before the debate ... he pinned Ryan's ears back, revealing him for exactly what he is and laying bare what he and Romney stand for, albeit for different reasons, I think. Perhaps this will have swayed the votes of the small handful of clear-thinking people that seem to exist among the electorate. For most of them, however, I believe that these debates are little more than circus entertainment for those who have already made up their minds.
-76 # pkrumrie 2012-10-13 10:42
If the rules of the debate were to interrupt as much as possible and laugh inappropriately , the Biden won hands down.
+37 # James Smith 2012-10-13 11:45
Do you mean like Romney did with the President? What a hypocrite you are. But then, republican and hypocrite are semantically equal.
+15 # MarieLavoe 2012-10-13 12:52
Glad you pointed that out. I kept saying that myself but felt like I was banging my head against the wall.
+23 # Billy Bob 2012-10-13 13:24
I've asked this to other right-wingers with the same talking point:

Where was this complaint during the last debate? Oh yeah! You didn't mind romney doing it then, did you? In fact, you all thought it was pretty cute, huh!?!
+4 # ghostperson 2012-10-13 23:04
Only bested in that regard by Romney on crack or whatever he took to go wild-eyed and speed-talky.
0 # dovelane1 2012-10-16 17:12
pkrum - I thought Paul simon said it best - " amn hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest."

what is sauce for the goose, should be sauce for the gander. Or the old idea about the pot calling the kettle black,
which is basically what Romney did after the v.p. debate, praising Ryan for being cool, calm, etc., and dumping on Joe for doing exactly the same thing he did.

But Joe never, never looked as grim or tight-mouthed as Romney did. Romney's smiles felt faked to me. Joe's smiles did not. They were just a pretty honest response to the b.s. Ryan was putting out.

I know I would get frustrated trying to deal with all the b.s. Romney and Ryan are spreading around. Responding as Joe did seems to me to be a good way to deal with that.
-14 # Doctoretty 2012-10-13 10:42
My only problem with Ms. Raddatz was that at times she behaved as though she were running for VP and thus part of the debate. After Ryan would give some nonsensical answer in his allotted time, she would ask him a followup question,thus giving him more time and preventing Joe from responding.
+7 # brux 2012-10-13 18:10
Nobody's perfect, but I thought Raddatz was about the best I've seen. I have not seen any time statistics, but it's not like anything was preventing jumping Joe Biden from talking the whole night, and he did it as politely as he could, forcefully, but politely.
+4 # KittatinyHawk 2012-10-13 19:52
I believe for a first time she did well compared to the 'Seasoned' Me Lehrer.
She kept PR pretty well to time. Both were very will within lines of time. I was impressed compared to Meth Head
+1 # ghostperson 2012-10-13 23:06
I agree with you. Don't understand why you got thumbs down. She reserved the press hard for Biden and didn't do the same crunching down on Ryan, why not?
+72 # nancyw 2012-10-13 10:46
Biden's response of incredulous laughter and smiling and head rolling was him being honest and present to the absurdity of Ryan's garbage. Simply being honest!! And he was still diplomatic. He didn't go over the edge to name call or arrogantly put him down.

Right on Biden! For all of us!!
+38 # Kootenay Coyote 2012-10-13 10:55
If Republicans show emotion, they consider themselves righteous. If Democrats show emotion, Republicans consider them rude. Oh, sure. Good on Taibbi & Raddatz.
+29 # MarieLavoe 2012-10-13 12:57
I saw a woman in Iowa say Biden was disrespectful to Ryan, what a case of hypocrisy when in fact, ryan and romney both disrespect the President of the United States all the time.
+4 # Billy Bob 2012-10-13 18:33
Guess who that woman was already planning to vote for...
+3 # KittatinyHawk 2012-10-13 19:53
sheeple woman didn't watch the debate, she had her mind made up on
+19 # dick 2012-10-13 10:55
Shocking! The CORPORATE MEDIA are not exposing the CORPORATE candidate. ABC, NBC, CNN, & CBS do more harm than FAUX by portraying an insane political culture as if it were sane. They do NOT seek "balance" (between the more insane & the less insane?); they seek to legitimize corporate domiNation.
+1 # KittatinyHawk 2012-10-13 19:54
Diane Sawyer Miss Made in USA is biggest hypocrite
+4 # brux 2012-10-13 11:06
There is only one way to respond to the never-ending attacks and negativity from the Republicans, because you can see the insincerity and dishonesty in their every word ... laugh in their faces. To not laugh at them gives them credibility and you cannot give Republicans credibility for being right maybe twice a day like a broken clock when everything else they do is just to attack without reason or facts or obstruct to hold the country hostage ,,, what kind of respect does that deserve?
-3 # Billy Bob 2012-10-13 13:25
Who do you work for?
+4 # brux 2012-10-13 13:35
What is it that you heard in what I said, and what do you mean by that?
0 # Billy Bob 2012-10-13 18:34
What I read was the previous version before you corrected it.
0 # Billy Bob 2012-10-13 21:31
Give me a negative if you want. But you did edit your post. I don't know why you wouldn't be able to admit to a simple clerical error. It's not that big of a deal.
+33 # HooverBush 2012-10-13 11:13
Biden reminds me of the old days, when politicians said what they thought, and tried to help the working people, instead of Corporations!!

Ryan reminds me of the old days too, when I used to trap "rodents & varmints" around the farm. He looks exactly like a Weasel!!!
+6 # MarieLavoe 2012-10-13 13:00
Someone discribed ryan as Howdy Doody, sorry Howdy, his profile is Howdy Doody.
+6 # Eldon J. Bloedorn 2012-10-13 23:38
The "days are over" as regards the Republicans doing some social justice for the middle class and the poor. Why? Think about it. Russia fell. The cold war is over. There is no threat of Communism taking over in the U.S. So, what do the Republicans have to fear? The Republicans have a new political force now. Citizens United decision gives them the power to replace a former threat, Communism with the new form of Republicanism-t heir brand of Communism. Until Citizens United is done away with, you will be exposed to and subservient to wealthy corporate money and the new Republican(ism. ) The word is not stuck in your throat-it is Republican Communism.
+26 # angelfish 2012-10-13 11:27
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Matt! WHERE has the "main stream" Media been in calling these egregious Liars OUT on their mendacity and Mean Spirited "Policies"? Everyone acknowledges their paucity of spirit and self-serving agendae, but NONE of them except for a few, like YOU, ever hold their very well manicured feet to the fire! V.P Biden did a WONDERFUL and Masterful job in scoffing at Ryan's Lies! Hopefully, the unconscious Public that has rolled over and slept through this election cycle will be roused and made AWARE of the evil that may over-take them if they don't ACT to prevent them from Fooling (Shaming) us again! Never, EVER vote ReTHUGlican!
+3 # KittatinyHawk 2012-10-13 19:58
Mainstream has lost touch since Japan..perhaps the news chop shop is radiated or hypnotised. Whatever, they are not worth their salaries
Bet if NitMitt gets in lots of changes goin to happen.
Did you know Oprah is pro Romney....she gets Media Show number one, then two goes to Rush with Beck coming in a close third
Thought it couldn't get any worse....we will need underground....
+27 # AMLLLLL 2012-10-13 11:35
The clear pattern for the GOP since 2000 has been to run on one thing and govern on another. Prime example: Gov. Scott Walker. Now R&R have the same m.o. The malarkey about 'small government' is just as laughable; when has a Republican administration attained smaller government? Reagan grew it almost 300%! It reminds me of women who walk into a shoestore & swear they wear a smaller shoe size than they actually do.

Ryan's comparison to ANYONE in office working to reach a bipartisan agreement: they were already elected offficials; he and Romney are still running, and that's why they've got to show what's under the hood. A plan without details is only a goal.

Regarding Ryan's pathetic 'unelected judges' comment, you don't legislate rights, you just acknowledge them. That's why we have the Constitution and its Amendments.

Thanks Matt; I couldn't have said it better!
+35 # Bill Clements 2012-10-13 11:44
Wow! Matt, great piece! I SO agree with you! My wife and I disagreed while watching the debate live on Biden's smiling, laughter, etc. She felt it was "unbecoming" behavior for a V.P. while I immediately felt that it was an entirely appropriate response to Ryan's bilge and blather. Yes, she was correct in assuming that the right would use his behavior against him, but that far outweighed the benefits of Biden's truthfulness and his obvious passion. Ryan came off more like a Romney robot by comparison.
+2 # KittatinyHawk 2012-10-13 19:59
What did she think of Meth Head Nit?
+5 # Bill Clements 2012-10-13 21:26
She absolutely detests Romney, as do I.
+10 # cordleycoit 2012-10-13 12:27
Notice that other joke the religious Right is not even mentioned. They moved into the Tea Party and are not being dislodged by the "old Guard' of the GOP. Their ministers are laying low for a reason, the pure hatred they preach in the name of God is biting their ass. There is so much talk of killing that it can be frighting to hear your neighbor talk about killing people in their sleep, and they are not talking Muslims. Laugh at Ryan and Bat Man but don't sleep too soundly.
+1 # KittatinyHawk 2012-10-13 20:00
Islam must not be thought a lamb but our own is definitely in need of some detoxing
+7 # kalpal 2012-10-13 12:38
I don't when and how it came about that no one in the media has the cojones to call a liar by his rightful name in front of the public. I suspect it began to fade awa when Nixon was forced by Goldwater to pack his suitcase and go home in mid term because it became obvious that Nixon was a liar and a cheat and felt that it was acceptable behavior. His party, knowing full well that lying is the only weapon it has, began to pursue anyone who called them liars and has established that if they, the Dems, tell a small white lie it constitutes license for the GOP to tell a million big black lies.
+14 # lourdmar 2012-10-13 12:44
Matt, you're right on the money and in fact I was both exasperated and incredulous at the inventions and distortions coming out of that boy with the crooked upside down smile that hides a million lies. He ought to concentrate on his biceps and give up politics. At home I talk back to the screen so I was thrilled Biden wasted no time and did it for me. I applaud him and hope Obama feels empowered to unashamedly tell it like it is.
+4 # KittatinyHawk 2012-10-13 20:03
He reminded me of a snot nose who got bullied enough to now want to get even. Tea party is a strange crowd wonder how they got there.. family, faith, friends or lack thereof, alone too much, no family life, phony one? they are a strange lot, I do not think they can handle what is coming at them. Just to selfish and spoiled
+17 # MainStreetMentor 2012-10-13 13:07
Romney/Ryan's "message" is conceived of simplistic adolescent mindsets, coated with veils of deceit and misdirection, then delivered in "grown-up" words in an attempt to lend credence to the otherwise un-sell-able "package". "Down-home Joe" did, indeed, act properly in ALL his responses.
+17 # pegasus4508 2012-10-13 13:13
Matt Taibbi hit this one out of the ballpark. I knew EXACTLY why Joe Biden was laughing, hell, we all should have gotten the joke. The ability to tell such audacious lies with amazing sincerity is usually reserved for the folks on American Greed. Here we have American Greed in full effect- RMoney and Ryan want the power and the glory, without the work, integrity or convictions. Great article. So appreciated. Share with those Republicans who think this election is about Obama and 1 term. It is about the future of this country. The REAL future, not the pipe dreams being feed to the masses the by the best con artists in the world. Myth Romney and Lyin Ryan to the rescue!
0 # fredboy 2012-10-13 13:25
Wish the President had laughed and shared a similar reaction to what he was hearing. But he didn't. He stood there, head and eyes bowed. He didn't look dignified, however; he looked afraid.
-2 # KittatinyHawk 2012-10-13 20:05
Afraid nope I did think he was bombarded so fast and Lehrer was so not there. Was not good night but afraid think you all have to have an excuse
OB said he was not a good debater...
+4 # Eldon J. Bloedorn 2012-10-13 23:48
Maybe, just maybe Obama will expose Romney to the real reason why the Plutocrats want to crush Social security and Medicare. There is not ever a mention by ly'n Ryan or Willard of "SOCIAL SECURITY AND MEDICARE EMPLOYER CONTRIBUTIONS." Cut out employer contributions for the individual worker releases massive amounts of money for the employers, corporations to use the former employer contributions for "something else."
+3 # CL38 2012-10-13 14:24
“As we are all too well aware, for twelve years, Republicans pushed to legalize greed, with dire circumstances for the American people and the economy--result ing in poverty for 46 million, loss of jobs, homes, and health insurance. For four years, Republicans ignored all consequences of 2000-2008, deciding, instead, to teach the first black President a lesson he would never forget -- one they hoped would cost Obama his second term.

During earlier GOP primaries, audiences cheered about people dying without health insurance -- and wildly applauded poor children serve as janitors in their schools to "teach them a work ethic".

During the Biden/Ryan debate, Biden’s response to Romney/Ryan’s ever-changing policies & outright lies was brilliant, absolutely perfect, using laughter, humor and incredulous looks when Ryan lied. Brilliant!

Republicans criticized Biden’s performance, calling him ‘rude’’ and “disrespectful” .

I’ll bet Republicans – and even Democrats-- will think twice, before making fun of Joe, again!”
+16 # CL38 2012-10-13 14:26
The right is upset and calling foul because Biden used humor and laughter to discredit Ryan and expose his lies.

This is the same party that called Obama a 'liar" when he was addressing a Joint Session of Congress. The same party that depicted a monkey face for Obama's, countless times. Same party that's also referred to the first US black President in coded (and not so coded) racist terms for four years.

This same party then accuses Biden of being "disrespectful, rude and grumpy"???
+17 # ganymede 2012-10-13 14:53
I'm convinced that team Obama/Biden/Axe lrod are leading Romney/Ryan down an enticing path towards a high cliff where they're going to unceremoniously push them over into the abyss. Obama has been a true believer in bipartisanship which has cost him and us dearly. Along the way the Dems saw that given the total opposition and hatred towards a black president, that maybe it was a good thing to let all the rightwing crap come to the surface. In the first debate, once Obama saw that Romney was doing a lie-a-thon, he decided to let Romney rip. The second time around I'm sure that Obama will not be passive, but will do a Biden on Romney. What the unwashed, low-information Republican voters don't get is how extensive the brainwashing has been in this country for many years, especially since the time of St Reagan. The polls are beginning to turn again against the rightwingers. The right has aliented every major demographic group except for the angry white men and their families, and even they are beginning to smell a rat when the conversation gets around to dismantling social security, Medicaire, public education and many other so-called entitlements which are standard in nearly all civilized countries. My advice to the left and timid liberals is to stop the usual bickering and arguing and realize that Obama is an SOB, but he's our SOB! In his second term he might be able to deliver on more of his promises.
+3 # stonecutter 2012-10-14 07:51
@ ganymede

Extremely well said.
+1 # jky1291 2012-10-14 12:49
As you devoted posters on RSN know, I have been and still am a firm believer that we need a viable 3rd Party presidential candidate to salvage our nation from the challenges we face. But, with 6 - 9 billion dollars being projected to be spent on this election, no non corporate independent 3rd party candidate superior to President Obama was willing to expose themselves to the reprehensible abuse being heaped on the opponents of the multinational corporations' funded U. S. Chamber of Commerce and all the other undisclosed billionaires' phony "educational" Super PAC's. Despite that fact I would have been willing to deny President Obama my vote for his complicity in his corporate acquiescences, and let the chips fall where they may, until Romney's threat to position Paul Ryan a heartbeat away from imposition of the Fourth Reich. I still have reservations about President Obama's ability to substantially overcome corporate control of our total government, but I have no such reservations concerning the total demise of this country descending into apocalyptic civil war resulting from the 1%'s total enslavement of the 99% under a Ryan influenced administration. The destruction of the great state of Wisconsin was just a trial run for the dictatorship of the 1% over the entire world. VOTE FOR OBAMA! or be responsible for the self-fulfilling religious prophesies of Armageddon. A vote for Obama is a vote AGAINST RYAN!
+12 # HerbR 2012-10-13 15:39
Taibi at the bat = home run every time.
+8 # kitster 2012-10-13 15:41
the problem is...much of the boobeoisie that goes to the polls is buying this bilge. you're preaching to the choir, mr. taibbi. potus o must hold ryan's running mate's feet to the fire this tuesday. he can't be allowed to keep wriggling out of the situation. "trust me" is not a policy. and don't forget the likes of that merrill lynch mook is waiting in the wings to enforce romney's disaster on the american people. and blusterbuss bolton is waiting in the wings to bomb, bomb, bomb iran. w was a wimp compared to these wingnuts. it's time for potus o to bring the hammer down on these deranged dunderheads and piss-boys to the teabaggers. let's see mr. o stand on the shoulders of his homeboy biden and put down this pachy puke for good!!!
+13 # Art947 2012-10-13 17:08
I am not sure what program I was listening to the other night, however, they were talking about Lee Atwater and Karl Rove. It was interesting, but disturbing, to learn that that the entire history of these 2 individuals is based on being liars and cheats! It was also instructive to learn how George HW Bush appointed Atwater to chair the Republican National Committee and make his style of deceitful political discourse the raison d'etre of that Party. Since that time every Republican campaign has been based on lies and deception. So much for an American democracy that should be the envy of the world!
+8 # Billy Bob 2012-10-13 18:38
Watch the movie, "Bush's Brain" if you get a chance. It's about Rove more directly.

Repugs know that most of their ideas have been as popular as maggot feces for the past 30 years, so the only option left to them is to hide them, disguise them, steal elections, or make up stuff about their opponents to offset the natural disadvantage they have with voters who aren't members of the undead.
+7 # brux 2012-10-13 20:35
Yes, the richest people in the most powerful and strategic corporations basically took over the Republican party to get their representation in government and they have a scorched Earth, take no prisoners policy.
+3 # ghostperson 2012-10-13 23:16
All true. I fell into this subject as a deep stream of my reading interests and was stunned by the perversity of these two.

However,Atwater recanted as he realized his end was near and would be meeting his maker in the short term. One must assume that he had taken stock of his life. It is unlikely that Rove has the ethics or moral insight to see what he does as wrong. People who cannot are usually personality disordered and are untreatable usually because they accept no role in their own downfall. Citizens United brought him back from disgrace because it gave him an opportunity to be a money broker a la Abramoff. He brokers money from secret donors and has a tax exemption for doing so.
+10 # JSRaleigh 2012-10-13 18:27
Except that when you get right down to it, Romney/Ryan are offering exactly what the OWNERS of the media want.

The owners are not going to let mere underlings question their star protégés veracity.

I'm surprised they haven't tried to silence Taibbi already.
+1 # brux 2012-10-13 20:34
If they saw any affect from his articles they probably would. Most Liberals are too busy ranting on message boards and wielding their plus and minus one buttons furiously - like it does any good. The reason we have no left left is because of the caliber of people in the left.

What we really need is a way to keep the riffraff out, and I don't mean the 99% by that.

Did you see the story a day or two ago of supposed Elizabeth Warren supported taunting some Scott Brown supporter for looking gay. This can always happen and it is what put away the Occupy movement.

Maybe at some point Democrats will start to see how important security is in politics, it sure as hell is used against us enough.
+4 # KittatinyHawk 2012-10-13 20:08
Excellent story..yes the Media has slithered lower than I thought possible.
I wonder how they can sleep at night...alcohol and ambien?
+4 # Cdesignpdx 2012-10-13 23:04
By not offering any economic details, Ryan is playing Rock, Paper, Scissors with the U.S. electorate–¨US. "
Gambling on a false opportunity–Roc k, Paper, Scissor– is a school yard huckster's lunch money dupe.

Hello Romney, Ryan, Rove (Notice the three R profile on Romney's campaign logo, designed before Ryan was on board?), THE JIG IS UP!

Thank you Joe!
+3 # CatDancer 2012-10-14 02:19
The press is at a loss as to how to expose these liars without seeming biased or rude. Perhaps most of them can't indeed get past the polling data. Many journalists write much better than they speak ad lib. They lack the temerity to challenge the candidates and perhaps cannot call up from memory the long list of contradictions and fallacious thinking that these candidates demonstrate.

Furthermore, the onus is now on Obama to be just as well prepared as Romney; however, debating is not Obama's strong point and Romney is just better at it and better prepared. I heard also that Obama dislikes debate prep and perhaps even refused to prepare for it. On the other hand, Romney has more time and money to spend on this, but that isn't an excuse for Obama. If Obama is not up to the task, the Dems will take another dive.

If the press were as vigilant and persistent as Taibbi says they are not, then the outcome of the debates wouldn't matter as much. As far as I'm concerned, the GOP attempts to suppress the vote is quite enough to disqualify them. If Obama wins, and the composition of the Congress remains the same, then we will have four more years of deadlock.

I keep thinking that if Hillary had been elected, much of this tragi-comic parody of an election might not be happening.
-3 # Billy Bob 2012-10-15 01:35
"I keep thinking that if Hillary had been elected, much of this tragi-comic parody of an election might not be happening."

You're right. Because Hillary is so much MORE like romney, so their wouldn't be much controversy between them. Maybe they'll be running mates in 2016.

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