WikiLeaks vs. The Empire

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FOCUS | Bernie Sanders: Ending Israel's Occupation of Palestine Is in American's Interests

James Comey, the Would-Be J. Edgar Hoover

High-Speed Pig Slaughter Will Be Disastrous for Everyone Involved

Tom Hayden opens his letter to Rep. Peter King: "I am hoping you will reconsider your call to place WikiLeaks on the list of foreign terrorist organizations. I would hope that as chair of the Homeland Security Committee you would take a more responsible approach than many of your Republican and conservative colleagues who are calling for the assassination of Julian Assange."

Rep. Peter King, (R-NY), 09/08/10. (photo: Getty Images)

Comments

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+32 # B. 2010-12-03 23:43

By all accounts congress is the real Terrorist org. Any congressperson who is against WikiLeaks has something to hide/protect. We, the common man have a right to know and expose it to the world.
First up Joe Lieberman.
Main stream reporters, if there's any left, get of you're @sses and do you're jobs exposing these self appointed kings.

+2 # Warren bishop 2010-12-09 00:20

Finally we found our mike Tyson......Mean and tough......Obam a has become .....look the emperor has no clothes.......h as this demystification created a real opportunity for the left...

-51 # beardog 2010-12-04 00:07

We were never attacked from Vietnam. We were from Afghanistan. What happens if we abandon Afghanistan and a resurgence of Al Qeada results in them them organizing new terrorist attacks on the West? To abandon afghanistan would mean abandoning all the activity in the Middle East that causes radical elements to hate us. Lets do that!

+9 # What Now 2010-12-04 08:36

Let's be clear, we were attacked FROM Afghanistan not BY it. Big difference operationally don't you think? We can't "abandon" a place we never were morally authorized to support. This issue is and always was, about terrorism. Period. If surgical strikes can eliminate Taliban leaders then good...we've also saved hundreds of innocent civilians by foregoing the heavy hand of infantry ( what if we were talking about YOUR home town?) We cannot abandon Afghanistan; we can only eliminate the Taliban and Al Qaida as effectively as possible. If the day arrives soon that leaving would give us a better boost than staying, Afghanistan will simply revert to it's natural state.

+31 # DaveW. 2010-12-04 15:05

What Now, We weren't attacked "from" or "by" Afghanistan. We were "attacked" by operatives, primarily from Saudi Arabia, in coordination with elements of our own government. 9/11 "truthers" are looked upon as some radical left-wing element that operates on the fringes of reality. The evidence tells another story. The "Project for a New American Century" has been successfully implemented and I can absolutely guarantee that this country will remain in a "perpetual war on terror" that it first manufactured and now "maintains" for the benefit of the Military Industrial Complex. We will NEVER completely control Afghanistan and even if that mythical event were to occur the members of the Taliban and Al Qaida will simply move on, as they're doing now, to other locations. WikiLeaks has already told us that we are engaging in combat activities in Yemen. We are invaders in foreign lands for the purpose of draining their natural resources, keeping a geographic stranglehold on the region for the continued protection of our brother rogue state, Israel and fulfilling the dreams of Fascist Americans who will cripple us so economically at home that they will ALWAYS have a steady stream of human cannon fodder.

+26 # Glen 2010-12-04 17:04

Dave, why is it those of us who point out the obvious never get a proper forum. Why is it there is so little interest in learning by the populace, only winning? There continues to be those who have not read the PNAC, much less investigated the amazing amount of research done on the events of Sept. 11, 2001. Practically none have read the Patriot Act.

Keep on keeping on, Dave.

+20 # DaveW. 2010-12-04 21:35

Glen, I can't really answer your question Glen other than to say that Americans are so spoiled, so preoccupied, so caught up in the gizmos and gadgetry of uber capitalism as a nation, that's it's simply easier to accept hyped propaganda than do some investigating on your own. It's amazing that PNAC tells us what it plans to do, then does it, and you still can't get people to pay attention. Patriot Act was just another step towards a totalitarian/Fa scist state. "Less government" in our lives. What a crock! If Americans watched and analyzed the events of 9/11 like they do "Dancing with the Stars" we'd have calls for the heads of Bush, Cheney and the rest of the PNAC cabal. Or perhaps a plurality of Americans critical thinking skills have been eroded by years of mindless and ultra-violent video games, movies, music, reality shows, etc. Chinese proverb: "One has never so much need of his wit as when he has to deal with a fool." Or in the case of America, a lot of them. You keep on keeping on too Glen! At least if we go down with the sinking ship some of us we'll be more prepared than others.

+25 # karenvista 2010-12-05 03:56

Anyone who has paid the slightest attention to 9/11 has to know in their heart that our government did it. There is a mountain of evidence, including the military grade nano-thermite explosive found in all the WTC dust that can only be manufactured by the U.S.Military. This has been proven and published in peer reviewed scientific journals. The reason most people refuse to admit it is because it is way too scary to admit that your own government is this evil. It's like knowing your father is a child molester but not being able to admit it. It's just too hard to believe. It leaves you completely vulnerable. Our government/fath er is supposed to protect us, not attack us. I know it's very uncomfortable to think about it but that's the kind of insecurity people have to accept to take that leap.

+17 # DaveW. 2010-12-05 11:43

karenvista, "Anyone who has paid the slightest attention to 9/11 has to know in their heart that our government did it." There's the rub. Most of the "attention" has been paid to "shock and awe" mainstream media, Faux News and right wing bloviators. The local Peace and Justice Network where I live showed a series of films and presented speakers of engineering authority telling listeners of the "impossibility" of the events as described by the government. My wife and I went. About 12 people showed up out of a population of about 350,000! I wrote TWO letters to local paper which regularly prints my letters. NEITHER letter saw the light of day. I like your government/fath er analogy. "Father" I'm afraid is a treacherous SOB. You ,glen and I should have a boatload of thumbs up. The fact we don't is indicative of the uncomfortablene ss and insecurity of which you speak. A nation and a people in such a mindset is exactly what corrupt power brokers count on to march their minions to hell whilst they live upon the dead bodies beneath their debauched feet. Take care Karen.

+17 # Glen 2010-12-05 07:33

Looks as if Karenvista is on board.

Have you seen the latest semi-threats to possible future diplomats and students to not read any WikiLeak info?

The conversations I've had about the lack of citizen interest have been quite clear and succinct, but those were in private. To state it in a public forum is not yet acceptable and folks I know don't want to appear too negative. Out of 300 million people there are only a handful that want to be informed and who desire a cohesive citizenry. It just isn't possible.

+15 # DaveW. 2010-12-05 11:54

glen, If you get a chance read what I wrote to Karen. I agree with you. Until and if Americans actually get their collective noses rubbed in putrid and acrid truth about 9/11 I don't see much changing. Couldn't agree more that only a handful of our populace want to be informed. Majority know much more about the ostentatious lives of various celebrities than they do about current political events, the history of their own country, international developments, etc. Marx warned of the pernicious effects of a nation consumed with the diversions Capitalism supplies. I'm not advocating Socialism. Simply pointing out that we are indeed, diverted, and that that scenario was seen a long time ago. One thing is certain. Current system does not work for majority of citizens. Hope to speak to you again. Take care Glen.

+9 # Glen 2010-12-05 14:32

Thank you. I've had this discussion on RSN with another poster. Personally, I feel the U.S. is much too big, with too many citizens to carry on a democracy. Socialism does have its advantages. There again, most folks equate socialism with dictators, so automatically eschew the system.

+10 # Daniel Fletcher 2010-12-05 14:36

Dave, I would like to think I was on the same playing field as you, Glen, karenvista and others as I am like minded in so many ways. Ironically, I have to come to rsn to find likeminded company because so few seem to have any investment in knowing the truth and seem to be impervious to the facts. I have been sounding the alarm about the PNAC ever since I first became aware of it prior to 9/11. So few will even acknowledge it's existence even though it's existence is public knowledge! Even the obvious physics of the twin towers coming down...that the roofs fell to the ground at the rate of speed equivalent to free fall...as though all support below it went virtually at once...which it did, seems to impress no one. That the lies fed to us leading up to Iraq were so blatant yet the public refused to hit the streets... That single payer was simply taken off the table with barely a peep from the public... That not a single promise from the Obama campaign has been kept... That the Bush tax cuts will continue after all (no doubt)... That TARP money was taken at next to zero interest and then loaned back to the government with significant interest costs increasing the debt and so forth.

+7 # Daniel Fletcher 2010-12-05 14:48

(cont.) One could go on and on Dave and the point is that on these and many other crucial topics, the information is right here! Sure, main stream media does little to inform the public, but for that public, there are places like rsn, public libraries, numerous web sites and an abundant access to peer reviewed journals...and the few who will bother are minuscule compared to the masses that simply don't want to be bothered with the truth. My belief is that only when the shared suffering becomes so great that the public will, of desperation, act, will we see much happen. It seems apparent then that the future will be in either the hands of the standard barers of truth, or in the hands of the charismatic for whom actual qualification outside of animal magnetism need only be minimal.
So what is the point of my rant? Simply that like minded souls such as you and I, Glen, karenvista, activista, Harold Mencher, genierae, et al need to get serious about getting involved at the grass roots level more and more.
So, here is my challenge: I dare us one and all to DO something to organize. We're practically neighbors Dave. Time to brainstorm. Are you up to the challenge?

+7 # geraldom 2010-12-05 17:24

Daniel, I have a friend who is a local Dem leader here in Tucson, a somewhat minor one albeit who runs a local Dem club in Oro Valley. Like Thom Hartmann on FSTV, at least up until recently, my friend would either come up with some excuse or false rationalization as to why Obama has not achieved what he had promised, always blaming the Repubs. My friend also felt, like you, that working on local politics was as important, if not more so than national politics, and, to some degree, he had a point. But, I always pointed out to him that actions taken at the national level can trump & negate positive actions taken at the grassroots level, the point being the decisions made by our federal court system, and, more specifically, the decisions made by the highest court in the land, the U.S. Supreme Court, who seem to arrogantly believe that they have the right to even override states rights issues as defined by our Constitution, as was done in the 2000 presidential election.

The point that I'm trying to make here is that our Supreme Court, with lifetime positions all, and the Citizens United decision, can destroy any efforts made at the grassroots level.

+4 # Glen 2010-12-05 18:13

By grassroots are you meaning local or national, Daniel?

As we have discussed, it might be best to begin on a local level. How about slowly producing information on the level we see here or printing out the PNAC and Patriot Act to leave, say, in the dentist or doctor's office. Participating in community projects, such as community gardens where casual conversation could lead to national concerns. I have been astounded at folks when they have given opinions that are much as we read here - and I live in the buckle on the bible belt of conservatism. These folks were thrilled to have a listener.

How about some suggestions from others!

+6 # geraldom 2010-12-05 19:31

Glen, there's a DVD documentary out that been around almost since the Patriot Act was passed which basically describes the damage that the Patriot Act has caused to our civil liberties. It's titled "Unconstitution al - The War On Our Civil Liberties." I have a personal copy of the documentary which I purchased many years ago, & it's very powerful. It would be much easier to show people this documentary than to print out a copy of the Patriot Act itself.

In the same vein, the PDF file titled "Rebuilding America's Defenses" under the umbrella of the PNAC website is 90 pages long & would be somewhat difficult to leave in various professional offices, let alone read. Ref the following URL:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

It would be better to refer people to the website itself, to very specific areas, like reading the upper-left-hand corner para on page 51 of the document concerning the need for another Pearl Harbor.

The PDF file on the above ref website can be saved as a PDF document on your computer hard drive by simply clicking the floppy disc icon. The 2nd point of interest would be the signatory page.

+1 # Daniel Fletcher 2010-12-06 02:07

Great information Harold! I'm on it!

+4 # Glen 2010-12-06 09:49

Thank you for both postings containing information and where to access it.

I have numerous DVDs and even contribute to Pilots for 9/11 Truth. I shall make copies of these sites and DVD you suggest, in leaflet form. A copy of both the PNAC and PA are on file in my home.

However, I've had little success with getting folks to pursue that information much less watch a DVD. Perhaps leaving just a list of these sources with folks and perhaps a small portion of the PNAC and PA, with, as you suggest, the signatures.

Folks do seem to prefer hard copy, often, but younger people tend to go for online and video.

Thanks again.

+7 # geraldom 2010-12-05 19:48

As an addendum to my last posting, I would suggest that people also go to the "Statement of Principles" page on the PNAC website to view the signatories at the bottom of the page, signatories like Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld among other key names. The URL for that bis as follows:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm

I would also suggest that they just general peruse anything and everything that is under the PNAC homepage:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

This would be the best way to tell the American people and the world what the U.S. has planned, and what it has been doing since the false-flag event of 9/11, world hegemony.

I would also suggest that people watch, as a minimum, two documentaries concerning the events of 9/11:

"9/11 Press for Truth"
"911 Ripple Effect - Lies, Propaganda, and a Call for Justice"

The URL sites and the documentaries that I mention in this posting as well as in my last posting should be, as a minimum, the information that the American people need to look at and watch.

+3 # Daniel Fletcher 2010-12-06 02:11

Thanks again Harold. This is the kind of information that could be shared with a group of interested people to great effect. Reading this information, watching films and so forth, could make for a good group activity, especially with discussion to follow.
Yeah, I know. Maybe the turn out would be miniscule, but maybe not. But I'm willing to work with even a tiny group to start. Word of mouth might result in further opportunities.
I will credit you as a resource should I publish. You've been a real help!

+2 # Daniel Fletcher 2010-12-06 01:55

Geez Glen, I am far more committed to "doing something" than I am knowledgable about what would be best to do. I'm thinking of starting up a local discussion group populated by serious minded, intelligent people who may hold very different views but are willing to invest in supporting their views with data that will be available for the group to review as well. I am writing to Bernie Sanders. If he will run for the Presidency I will gladly volunteer to work for any west coast office he can set up. I am fond of your ideas. I can print up copies of the PNAC and while the Patriot Act is a huge document, if I can be directed to a quality synopsis of it I will make copies and distribute these. As for my earlier idea, perhaps if I advertise I can gather up a group of progressives who will agree as a group to work as a team to handle letter writing campaigns, phone calling and so forth. I am willin and intend to visit my state legislature. In April I will in fact be lobbying on behalf of a union of social workers. I am going to do my damndest to learn about what doors to knock on and how to get an audience with state legislatures. Local or national? (cont.)

+4 # Daniel Fletcher 2010-12-06 02:05

As to local or national, I'm trying to look at both. Harold Mencher correctly observes how easily local grassroots efforts can be wrecked, which is a true vulnerability for any grassroots effort, so I think national grassroots efforts may carry more weight, but isn't national grass roots organizing a culmination of local grass roots organizing? I will ultimately need to build a web site that also serves as a resource for accessing vital web sources of information. I'm presently studying community organization and am very much a neophyte but am making progress. We need to mine the internet for other grass roots organization that perhaps we can lend our talent to or even participate in opening a local chapter.
So I'm brand spanking new at all of this but perhaps my naivety will carry me past the mine fields that would drive some away! One can hope. What is certain for myself is that the alternative is doing nothing. I cannot, will not abide by this. Those in power have become so evidently untrustworthy that I've given up on them. I did participate in labor organizing years ago. Maybe what is needed is a voters union! Common discontent could draw huge numbers. What say you?

+2 # Glen 2010-12-06 10:01

It is necessary to learn your own community and the best methods of approaching those who might be interested and alternative approaches with those who have set their feet against non-traditional politics and activities. And any new efforts must be non-traditional.

Yes, any group, whether state, local, or national, could easily be either taken over by major political entities, or squashed outright. Therefore, a bit of local subversion might be in order. One person at a time, one day at a time. Meetings, if possible.

Even if it fails you would have that confidence you seek in knowing you did your darnedest.

+9 # B. 2010-12-06 10:15

Quoting Glen:

Looks as if Karenvista is on board.

Have you seen the latest semi-threats to possible future diplomats and students to not read any WikiLeak info?

The conversations I've had about the lack of citizen interest have been quite clear and succinct, but those were in private. To state it in a public forum is not yet acceptable and folks I know don't want to appear too negative. Out of 300 million people there are only a handful that want to be informed and who desire a cohesive citizenry. It just isn't possible.

Came in to to late to get in on discussion, but have read PNAC and reserched 9-11, and I'm onboard and ex-military. As you, Dave W., and others have pointed out, not enough are. We live in a country of sheep. Our forfathers gave us a republic, told us it was up to us to keep it. We have failed miserably.

+5 # Glen 2010-12-06 15:15

Not to worry about late entries to this thread, B. It's good to know folks care enough to do the research.

I have expressed dismay over the condition of the U.S. numerous times, but have also expressed concern that the little republic we once were is now too huge to carry on as intended. In the sixties I wrote a paper for graduate school on government revision. In the sixties, mind you. Things are much worse now, with little possibility of countering the powers against us.

+12 # AML 2010-12-04 18:08

Actually, on the ground there, for every Al Qaeda leader we kill, there are more to take their place. And the new guys aren't out to reason with us. They kill anyone who approaches them about peace, even Taliban. What we are doing right now is making enemies hand over fist. Ask Jeremy Scahill and Rick Rowley, who were over there.

+16 # debforun 2010-12-04 09:12

You band with the other countries and handle them that way. It's time the U.S. stops being the bully big guy, demanding all follow whatever we say. I think it's time for the world to get more unified anyway, with all the global problems we have environmentally , economically, sustainably, healthwise, etc., anyway.

+24 # Richard Cummings 2010-12-04 09:53

Please remember that it was Bush who abandoned Afghanistan after American forces and CIA joined with the Northern Alliance to defeat the Taliban and drive what was left of them out of the country. Instead of securing Afghanistan, which was what he should have done, he chose to invade Iraq, which had nothing to do with 9/11. Because of this, America is the the pickle it is in Afghanistan. Americans deserve to know the truth about what is going on there. We have been in Afghanistan now for nine years with no end in sight. It is costing us fortunes every day, with casualties increasing. Nothing appears to be going well. The government is totally corrupt and hated by the people, the Afghan army will not fight and members of the police have been killing Americans. If there is a solution to Afghanistan, I would like to know it.

+22 # pbbrodie 2010-12-04 12:18

The solution i simply to leave. What's missed in all of these comments is the fact that it is the US that causes the terrorism against us in the first place. If we weren't over there killing their people and stealing their oil, they wouldn't hate us and want to destroy us. To defeat terrorism, you stop the root cause.

+10 # karenvista 2010-12-05 04:00

If you change the name Afghanistan for Vietnam in your description of the war, it fits perfectly. The outcome will be the same because the problems are the same-so the solution is the same. We just won't be pushing helicopters off aircraft carriers this time,

+11 # FAN 2010-12-04 22:10

you were no attacked from afghanistan. the 9-1-1 downing of the towers is an inside demolition job.
if you stay in afghanistan, you will suffer defeat and ruin.
do yourself a favor and get out while u can

+35 # Helen N. Hanna 2010-12-04 00:12

At the rate we are going, anyone who wants an end to constant warfare will be considered a terrorist. We sorely need a new political party that is dedicated to peace and environmental sanity.

+18 # wunkman 2010-12-04 00:17

Freedom of the press guaranteed by the US Constitution. Why doesn't our Government obey our Constitution? Guess this would be OK if presented by FOX news. No one in office today will get my vote in the next election. That's a promise.

-14 # RICHARDKANEpa 2010-12-04 00:42

I want to cheer but can't. The US is slowly inching in the direction of countries that to execute, whip and stone people for a smorgasbord of things. But how different is Julian Assange from a patriarchy making a celebrity miserably, or a young musician committing suicide, because bedroom pictures were posted on the web, not that I want to see Paparazzis executed.

Thanks to all that diplomatic gossip, war with Iran is closer and North Korea may become more paranoidly insane, adding China to it’s list of villains.

Salon and Talking Point knows better,
www.www.salon.com/technology/dan_gillmor/2010/11/29/wikileaks_a_few_questions
www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2010/11/beyond_manning.php
Also see,
http://www.phillyimc.org/en/wilkileaks-not-heroic

Hopefully they can find a way to prevent you and the NY Times and our system of laws from being destroyed with excess punishment.
Some think it's all an Israeli plot to destroy Iran and get Ayad Allawi not Maliki to head Iraq, and to get someone less friendly with Iran than Karzai the head of Iran. But I think
Julian Assange like Rush Limbaugh think publicity is success.

-7 # What Now 2010-12-04 08:47

Exactly

+5 # Wunkman 2010-12-04 00:58

Well said Dianna.

+7 # carol harvey 2010-12-04 01:32

However much attempting to reason with unreasonable sociopaths and fools appeals to other reasonable people, it is futile. "Gentle" also doesn't work. Sociopaths and fools simply don't understand it. Their brains are not configured that way.

+7 # shirley isbon 2010-12-04 11:04

Agree w/your premise, but who are you calling "sociopaths and fools"? If Congress and the guilty caught on these cables, agree!

+21 # GeraldT 2010-12-04 02:08

In this great country of The United Corporations of America, speaking the truth to a mass audience is no longer tolerated; only approved and vetted pap serves the masters' purposes and protects them from the numbed masses. All 'news' today is exhaled from behind a corporate firewall of some type, so when real truth manages to find its way around the barriers the masters treat it like a computer virus: kill it and kill the source. The longer Assange stays free the more serious the fabricated charges will be that the masters will concoct to turn the masses against him.

+21 # Hors-D-whores 2010-12-04 02:53

Excellent letter. God bless the brave whistleblowers, they should be rewarded not hunted.
Thank you Mr. Hayden.

-26 # What Now 2010-12-04 08:45

You haven't given this situation any thought. You are simply reacting like Mr King is. People like you shout out about the death penalty for multiple child rapist/killers but insist that the state build as many big bad prisons as needed to keep society's miscreants out of sight and out of mind.

I'm not a shill for the NSA or the CIA, but I am a realist and I do pay attention and think things through before I grab my 45 or my computer keyboard. The problem with Wikileaks is it's self-arrogated authority which is at least as egregious as the plots hatched over at the Department of State. Write about that why don't you?

+19 # genierae 2010-12-04 11:09

What Now: Every person on earth has the "self-arrogated authority" to bring the truth to the people. Do you really think that the truth belongs exclusively to any individual or group? Julian Assange is a hero, and the only people who want him punished, are those who have something to hide. Do you really want to be a member of that dark fraternity?

+3 # Watcher 2010-12-07 18:41

Wikileaks exposed FACT and TRUTH... Isn't it interesting that nobody has ever said that the information that was released was not factual...
.. I appreciate having the low-lifes and dirty-dealing - dirty-leg lying politicians statements and quips laid out for the sun to shine on!
... I am fed up with the decades of lies, schemes, and scams all done with the money of the working people, who are scratching for a living, trying to keep a roof over their heads.. some living in storm drains or under bridges..while the politicos live like potentates and princes ON OUR MONEY... while they lie and lie and lie.....
.. I have "given the situation a LOT of thought" and I APPROVE THIS MESSAGE: "The self-arrogated authority" of Wikileaks is very welcome!!!!

+13 # maddy 2010-12-04 03:05

It's the people that are running around intending to overpower the world for their EMPIRE,-- who are accusing Arrange of being one. He dares to tell the truth. The Empire idea started in 2001, and continues on. It didn't work in Germany-1930, but there are 3 political parties in the running now.

-15 # RICHARDKANEpa 2010-12-04 03:39

Social gossip shouldn’t be news, WilkiLeaks adds diplomatic gossip. Do you support paparazzi hounding a celebrity or a musician outed posting bedroom pictures on the Internet, which led to him committing suicide? North Korea will be paranoid of even China & war with Iran closer. An Iranian scientist killed, another injured. Maybe it would have still happened but WilkiLeaks made the international outcry less.

I fear the US drifting toward executing at will. Will stoning & whipping be that far behind? I think Salon and Talking Points make that less likely, not your complaints,
www.salon.com/technology/dan_gillmor/2010/11/29/wikileaks_a_few_questions
www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2010/11/beyond_manning.php
Also see, www.phillyimc.org/en/wilkileaks-not-heroic

Some say it’s Israel trying to replace Maliki with Allawi & Karzai with someone not sympathetic to Iran. But I think Julian Assanage like Rush Limbaugh confuses publicity with success. Whatever is involved, thank to Wilkileaks we can all hate each other more.

I hope Talking Points &Salon speak out against Rep. King's overreaction, Hayden could be fanning the flames

-11 # What Now 2010-12-04 09:01

I just visited these sites as you recommended. Zbigenew Bresinski's comments were especially telling. Think about the Chinese "willingness" to accept a unified Korea for example. I've been watching the Chinese for fifty years and have NEVER seen such a callow error in foreign policy. Clearly, the North Koreans are an embarrassment but so is throwing away a key bit of quid pro quo with the U.S. a stupid mistake. So, who IS feeding this fellow Asange documents and WHY? Our error would be to get all fuzzy wuzzy about "whistleblowers " while double agents eat us for breakfast.

-12 # RICHARDKANEpa 2010-12-04 03:58

Social gossip shouldn’t be news, nor WilkiLeaks diplomatic gossip. Do you support paparazzi hounding a celebrity or a musician outed with bedroom pictures on the Internet, which led to him committing suicide? North Korea will be paranoid of even China & war with Iran closer. Two Iranian Scientists attacked. Maybe it would have still happened but WilkiLeaks made the international outcry less.

I fear the US drifting toward executing at will. Will stoning & whipping be that far behind? I think Salon and Talking Points make that less likely, not your complaints,
www.salon.com/technology/dan_gillmor/2010/11/29/wikileaks_a_few_questions
www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2010/11/beyond_manning.php
Also see, www.phillyimc.org/en/wilkileaks-not-heroic

Some say it’s Israel trying to replace Maliki with Allawi & Karzai with someone not sympathetic to Iran. But I think Julian Assanage like Rush Limbaugh confuses publicity with success. Whatever is involved, thank to Wilkileaks we can all hate each other more.

I hope Talking Points &Salon speak out against Rep. King's overreaction, Hayden could be fanning the flames

+21 # Dan Fletcher 2010-12-04 04:02

I'm curious to see if a voice of obvious reason, that of Tom Hayden, carries any weight in Washington. The stark reality is this: if WikiLeaks is placed on the list of foreign terrorist organizations, this action will criminalize many thousands of Americans and force acts of civil disobedience to unheard of levels. The surest way to carve a permanent place in the nation's history and to stoke an outpouring of support for WikiLeaks would be it's designation as a foreign terrorist organization and triply so if Julian Assanage is assasinated. If this is the ultimate position my government wants to take it will need to place me and the many I know on the watch list...for cause.

+14 # bjw 2010-12-04 11:30

This a.m., I saw news that Pay Pal has also pulled the plug on donations to support the foundation supporting wikileaks. I will now add PayPal and parent e-Bay to my list to avoid.

If king does get wikileaks put on the terrorist list, I will immediately send a contribuion. If everyone who believes in open government and accountable government also aids them, they can't put half the country in jail. Then, who will be the greatest terrorist organization on earth?

Tom Hayden intended this for us as well as King, so we would know what to do. We need to send copies to the WH about such foolishness. We know it's entirely possible.

+4 # geraldom 2010-12-06 10:03

bjw, I've posting the following at a different location in this chatroom. If you've not seen it yet, I repeat it here. If you want to send a strong message to Ebay & to Paypal for dropping Wikileaks, I give you the following two URLs which are a treasure trove of Paypal & Ebay contact info that you won't find on either of their sites. It even gives you the email address, home phone and address of Ebay's CEO.

http://www.screw-paypal.com/paypal_contact_information.html

http://www.screw-paypal.com/paypal_contact_information.html#ebay1

Both URLs will actually take you to the same web page. The first URL will take you to the top of the web page with Paypal contact info, and the second URL will take you to the bottom half section of the web page with Ebay contact info.

Spread this info to your friends if you know anyone that might be interested in sending real feedback to the people that actually count at both Paypal & Ebay concerning their betrayal of our Constitution & our Democracy & our country.

+5 # Glen 2010-12-05 14:50

Dan, under the Patriot Act, any one of us could be swiftly eliminated from our homes and society, taken to unknown locations for any length of time, and lose all rights. There is no more 4th amendment and there are others on the way out, also.

So here ya go - do we make a stand against some very powerful entities or do we retreat and await the endgame.

Individuals must decide. Once the door gets bashed down with armed teams pouring through it, I suspect citizens will lose hope.

+4 # Daniel Fletcher 2010-12-05 16:39

This is precisely the precarious situation we find ourselves in. Retreat and await the endgame? I wonder what that endgame will be, and if it will necessitate a growing army of many being secretly whisked away and locked up somewhere. Does it take martyrdom to effect change? If so, who will pay? Are we strong enough to take the risks? For myself, I have every reason to NOT want to lose everything for any cause, like any of us, and yet, if I am unwilling to take my chances, what are my convictions worth? I don't know Glen. I will never know for sure. Must I risk everything to be worth anything? Good question! I haven't decided yet but I have a feeling such a decision will be forced upon me sooner or later.

+3 # Glen 2010-12-05 18:26

Question: Are you both Dan and Daniel?

I understand vacillating between both sides of national issues and possible dangers. Yes, we might lose in the end, but making a stand just might not mean a physical action in defense of hearth and home.

What has anyone heard of the NAFTA Highway or the concentration camps being built - those were of great concern a year and more ago. Even if individuals do not understand or believe these things were "on the table", it certainly raises a level of the paranoia of WHAT IF.

-1 # Daniel Fletcher 2010-12-06 01:45

Hello Glen. I am both and by accident it seems. I am registered with rsn under daniel fletcher and can be reached there. Often when I try to post using daniel, things go haywire. My messages don't seem to get through. But sometimes it works. I entered as dan using a different server and this works quite well. I doubt there is any censorship involved. I've figured out that if I am vigilant about logging in correctly my post appear correctly. If I try to post in the name I'm not registered to, everything blows up! I will be curious to see now which name appears on this post, Dan or Daniel! We'll see.

+3 # Glen 2010-12-06 09:30

Ah, so. I had my suspicions. Thanks for clearing that up.

+2 # Glen 2010-12-06 09:39

Much of what you ask is a personal decision by just about anyone concerned. It must be based on abilities, morals, what one feels they stand for, and all else in the realm of belief and standards.

I'm not convinced that losing everything, or even a little is worth it in the grand scheme and agenda of the U.S. government. Intellectually I am greatly offended by our government and the immorality displayed. Spiritually I don't belong in that patriotic group that clings to country or the need for unbridled chauvinism or the need to sacrifice to fight them.

As I said once before, we are free agents in the world, no matter our responsibilitie s to family and friends. We are not responsible for having been born in the U.S. We do not have to participate in any of the nastiness. On the other hand, said nastiness could be visited upon our community and homes. That just might make the most difference in a greater decision to act, as you said in your last sentence.

+13 # RILEY 2010-12-04 06:17

such a sad day in my life, not being able to speak freely, thank you TH for a plea for sanity.

-14 # Sandra Hanks 2010-12-04 06:49

And keep in mind that Julian is cute as a bug and would look great in green tights!

http://sandrahanksbenoiton.wordpress.com/2010/12/02/julian-assange-in-red-and-green/

+30 # Terry 2010-12-04 06:50

Tom it is time to take off the gloves. Enough of this nice guy rational rebuttal. Those that advocate the assasination of Mr. Assange and designating WikiLeaks a terrorist organization are not sane and rational people. They would rather have the US go on with its illegal and immoral behavior than respond in a rational and critical way to the released information.

Many in government have made enormous profits from the endless war. They are too stupid to realize that they have undermined the very foundation of the Republic for which they may have once stood. They are tainted and immoral people and trying to deal with them otherwise is a waste of time.

The American people need to know the truth, the real truth and not the spin being spewed forth by both of the major parties. The taint has spread to all levels of government and is now cloaked in patriot sentiments that serve only to further bury the truth and reality of who these peoople are and what they stand for. And I can assure you it is not for the good of their country or the people who are most greviously affected by their immoral actions.

+7 # shirley isbon 2010-12-04 11:12

Beautifully said!

+6 # TK3 2010-12-05 13:46

The Press was protected so that it could bare the secrets of the government and inform the people. Only a free and unrestrained press can effectively expose deception in government. And paramount among the responsibilitie s of a free press is the duty to prevent any part of the government from deceiving the people.
Justice Hugo L. Black

+10 # Prince Myshkin 2010-12-04 07:39

I sometimes wonder if King was displaced from Alabama or Mississippi. He certainly does not reflect Long Island.

+4 # What Now 2010-12-04 09:17

Naw, he's Long Island alright!

+16 # johnny hempseed 2010-12-04 08:06

Now that wiki-Leaks is going to target some banksters too,the big guns come out.Amazon drops them,pay pal drops them,and hoards of professional hackers have been hired to fight the wiki defences and "kill" the site.Stay out of small planes Julian,you are the new "Emanuel Goldstein".Big brother doesn't like being watched!
peace

+5 # TK3 2010-12-05 13:50

“The liberties of a people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them.”
Patrick Henry

+4 # TK3 2010-12-05 13:56

"The very word 'secrecy' is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings."
John F. Kennedy

-9 # What Now 2010-12-04 08:11

I have always been for the whistleblower even at the expense of a national entities' ability to survive. Also, I think it is very important to know IF we are, in fact, bombing another country covertly. But Wikileaks is non critical in it's massive dumping of documents. If the present case were simply a matter of reining in an imperial/crimin al power for an accounting, I would defer to my usual sympathies, but, the U.S. is joined, equally, by any and all wartime participants in the world who mean us no good and would seize us all by the throat if they could. In other words, there are no good players in geopolitics and it's a bit disingenuous to parade one out front as the special bad guy. In this vein, by the way, there are no relevant social-governme ntal systems like democracy or theocracy, there is only dog versus dog. History has always been that way and until our angels make this sort of thing impossible; it will continue with or without Wikileaks.

+4 # Heartbeatt 2010-12-04 11:17

You should watch the Democracy Now debate: Is WikiLeaks’ Julian Assange a Hero? Glenn Greenwald Debates Steven Aftergood of Secrecy News.

+5 # genierae 2010-12-04 11:19

What Now: What goes around, comes around.

+8 # bjw 2010-12-04 11:40

Assange also has plans to unveil some of the activiies of China and Russia. One big difference. They make no pretense of being a democracy or being open. So what if their people know about their corruption and criminality? What can they do about it. Actually, China has taken severe action against business people who were selling tainted food and baby formula, hoarding to raise prices and such. They executed them. What would China do to the banksters who caused the recent economic meltdown?

+17 # Kurt Bateman 2010-12-04 09:12

Note that just like the most infamous of our "boogiemen" the voice of Julian Assange is no longer heard during reports about this issue. Like Bin Laden the voice-over describes the government line while showing stock footage of a disheaveled "foreigner". Propaganda plan and simple.

+16 # Rothie 2010-12-04 10:28

The henchmen are out for Julian, guess he believed in that farce "FREEDOM of SPEECH". lOOK OUT!our country is begining to look and feel like it has the atmosphere of the times of Hilter. LONG LIVE THE WHISTLEBLOWER!

+13 # Todd Williams 2010-12-04 11:18

Afghanistan=Vie tnam. Vietnam=Afghani stan. Hayden knows. Ellsberg knows. I know. Many others know. History teaches lessons, often undigestible, but nevertheless true. Remember Laos, Cambodia and Thailand. Remember the illegal war and the illegal bombing and incursions. Are we doomed to repeat the lesson of Vietnam? Nine years and counting and no end in sight. Don't even begin to deny the truth. Go to the Vietnam Memorial and then tell me our current conflict has no bearing on the past. And how about the hundreds of thousands of dead and injured Afghan civilians? Does this ring a bell? Didn't this happen in Vietnam? Wake up Americans, we've been conned and snookered.

+10 # Heartbeatt 2010-12-04 11:20

For thsoe who haven't seen it, do take a look at Democracy Now:
Is WikiLeaks’ Julian Assange a Hero? Glenn Greenwald Debates Steven Aftergood of Secrecy News
I think Glenn Greeenwald convincingly presents the case for Wikileaks release of recent documents and says that Wikileaks are not responsible for changing the world - we are.

+12 # Alturn 2010-12-04 12:07

"I am proud today to hear brothers and sisters SPEAKING THE TRUTH and showing out the lies, THE LIES, that’s beautiful! All the young generation, black, white, they are all going around this place, and I LOVE to see that, and I would never miss it for a million pounds, brothers! And all my little brothers there, all my little brothers and sisters, all the way, coming from WAY OUT! I am glad, I AM REALLY GLAD! WE ARE WAKING UP! They thought we was asleep! . . . Yeah! [laughing] Wake up, brother, keep the faith!
Keep your eyes on the prize! And the prize is humanity! For the human race belong to all of us! As Bertrand Russell says: “Remember your humanity and forget the rest.” Because if you do not, only darkness lies ahead. But YOU, our new generation, have seen the DAWN of a new order and the order belong to the human race — not to George Bush, not to Tony Blair, or any one of these so-called ‘gods’ — you know, these ‘new gods’ — now it belong to you all! I am over 70, and I am saying, you keep the faith, brother!""
World Teacher Maitreya in guise as reported in Share International magazine April 2003

+11 # jlockard 2010-12-04 13:21

I replied to an Amazon ad on my email with this message:
I will not purchase anything from you while you maintain your stance toward Wikileaks which is censorship and inconsistent with our Constitutional principles and a form of state terrorism Reverse your decision to shut down WikileaksIt will show your committment to free speach and the fundamentals of a democracy judith lockard

+5 # geraldom 2010-12-04 18:32

Quoting jlockard:

I replied to an Amazon ad on my email with this message:
I will not purchase anything from you while you maintain your stance toward Wikileaks which is censorship and inconsistent with our Constitutional principles and a form of state terrorism Reverse your decision to shut down WikileaksIt will show your committment to free speach and the fundamentals of a democracy judith lockard

Is this the only to send a message to Ebay? Don't they have a way of sending them normal feedback?

+7 # paradoctor 2010-12-04 17:50

Assange is not a terrorist, he is an "embarrassist". The emotion he wishes to provoke in is not terror but embarrassment, or its counterpart, amusement.

There is little danger that Secretary Clinton will die of embarrassment.

+4 # Dan Treecraft 2010-12-04 18:07

Put me down for a "ditto" to Kookie Williams appraisal of your letter, Tom - "A gentle, brilliant call..." Nice one. May it fall on ears which can hear it.

+3 # julian powers 2010-12-04 19:40

This is so convuluted and complex that I do not understand who are the god and who are the bad.

I ask that Congress, either house or senate, have a hearing and publicize who are the good and who are the bad. AND, that several actions be taken:
1. Less secrecy on such matters.
2. Dammit, punish the bad side.

+3 # geraldom 2010-12-05 14:50

Quoting julian powers:

I ask that Congress, either house or senate, have a hearing and publicize who are the good and who are the bad. AND, that several actions be taken:
1. Less secrecy on such matters.
2. Dammit, punish the bad side.

Julian, unfortunately for all of us, the bad side is in complete control of not only the U.S. government, but many other world governments as well, and it's only probably going to get much worse.

+2 # SOF 2010-12-07 16:12

On the positive side... Read Bernie Sanders "A Real Jaw Dropper at the Federal Reserve" on this site.

0 # SOF 2010-12-07 16:08

Gosh Julian, where were you when we tried to impeach Bush? While we had the opportunity (and the mandate of the Constitution) to answer the big questions. Did you object when Bush ended or 'modified' whistleblower laws? Sorry, not your fault.

Without an 'informed populace' there is no democracy. Soon we will have only corporate 'news' media and, like China, not be able to access internet sites.

I seem to have spent my long life fighting the secret government and Corporate propoganda. All the good creative projects are ridiculed or ignored. There is a huge dedicated underground making positive changes, and smart enough to stay invisible. This experiment in Democracy has failed. The new murderous aristocracy rules. Back to square 1.

+4 # geraldom 2010-12-04 19:49

To anyone interested in sending a strong message to Ebay and to Paypal for dropping Wikileaks, I give you the following two URLs which are a treasure trove of Paypal and Ebay contact information that you won't find on either of their sites. It even gives you the home phone and address of Ebay's CEO.

http://www.screw-paypal.com/paypal_contact_information.html

http://www.screw-paypal.com/paypal_contact_information.html#ebay1

Both URLs will actually take you to the same web page. The first URL will take you to the top of the web page with Paypal contact info, and the second URL will take you to the bottom half section of the web page with Ebay contact information.

Spread this information to your friends if you know anyone that might be interested in sending real feedback to the people that actually count at both Paypal and Ebay concerning their betrayal of our Constitution and our Democracy and our country.

+6 # Bas 2010-12-05 04:46

Thanks to Assange, we will not be fooled again by any government. Like the american attack to Iraq. Now we can have the opinion we deserve!

+3 # geraldom 2010-12-05 14:59

Quoting Bas:

Thanks to Assange, we will not be fooled again by any government. Like the american attack to Iraq. Now we can have the opinion we deserve!

Bas, it won't matter if the people in the world actually wake up to the truth of it all because the people in power, the people who actually make the decisions that we all have to live on a daily basis, will do exactly what they want anyway, regardless, because they can get away with it. They have their police and their military so brainwashed, so well trained, both physically and mentally, and they have the people of their countries so fractured and divided, that the common folk of all nations do not really have any chance to force change.

One good example, besides the United States, is Canada, the U.S.'s neighbor to the north. Stephen Harper, the Prime Minister of Canada, has, for all intents and purposes, become a virtual dictator, and the Canadians don't seem to have the power or the wherewithal to get rid of him and put someone decent in his place.

+4 # Sally Shaw 2010-12-05 15:18

Thank you, Mr. Hayden, for gently speaking truth to power. Many of us feel anger and despair at the hypocrisy and obtuseness of our political "leaders," who do not seem to understand that this country was founded on rebellion against an tyrannical and abusive superpower, and on the institution of a Bill of Rights and Constitution. But these mean nothing without TRUTH and open government. The truth cannot harm us, it can only make us live up to our moral commitments. Julian Assange is a hero, and a great friend of true patriots in America, who will not settle for a mock-democracy.

+3 # T Hodges 2010-12-06 12:46

Republicans prove it over and over and over again. They are fools and idiots who cannot stand to have their crimes exposed nor have anyone shake an accountability finger at them, and rightly so.

+2 # Sheila Cee 2010-12-06 21:25

Read Russ Baker's book, Family of Secrets and you will probably come to the conclusion, as I have, that anything we will try to do will be for naught. They are sociopaths and care not for anything that gets in their way. All one needs to do is follow the dots and can see where they are taken. aa

The Bushies and the rest of the SOBs have been planning the takeover of the US, as well as other countries, for 100 years. They have everything so tied up and if we try to fight them they will find us and eradicate us. (Googles TerraFirma will be put to good use.) Blackwater is all over the US and probably the rest of the world. If people in this country rise up we will be met by Blackwater AND Kent state will look like a picnic.

I'm sorry to sound so pessimistic, but look around you and you will find nothing that says these people care for nothing buy money and power and will do ANYTHING to get it.

Read Baker's book.

+1 # Dan Fletcher 2010-12-07 02:31

I buy the premise that we are secretly, and not so secretly, ruled by sociopaths. I agree that when push comes to shove, we are likely to get hunted down like wild animals. I agree that their reach is awesome and they can hunt down anyone they want at any time. I accept that my personal safety is assured only as long as "they" see me as so powerless and irrelevant that it's simply easier to ignore me. If I ever ally with a force significant enough to worry them I will simply be erased as though I never was. I realize for saying the next thing I will probably appear on a list I'd rather not, BUT...I will fight. Risking a futile death is NOT worse than living a futile life. One's reason for living is greater than one's life. And none of this is courage. I just don't know how to live any other way. If that makes me an endangered species, so be it.

+1 # 3rdEstatesAdvocate 2010-12-08 00:35

Exactly,

A coward dies a thousands deaths, but the hero dies but once. What we are facing is a Cabal (cartel, syndicate, 'conspiratorial organization' [cover your ears, virgins]), more-or-less in de facto control of Europe & America since Napoleonic times. Now, some 2 centuries later, they've got nearly all the bases (elected reps. and other 'public servants') covered [anything money can buy], and are- apparently (one should add)- attempting to make that traditional background of 'de facto' dominance official, above board 'de jure'.

Obviously, anyone with at least half a brain should not submit to it... a would-be official global regime where "anarchy" is the worst word imaginable in the vocabulary, and 'Muslim', 'China', and (to a lesser extent) black Africa the worst imaginable people & places in the world- these 3 being, of course, the 3 main regions and peoples of the world that are not completely under the thumb of the 'independent central bank' and global currency-based globo-cabal.

Wise up. 'They' just keep making their intentions louder & clearer, day after day.

-3 # Vikingskipper 2010-12-08 14:50

Why is Tom Hayden still chasing the ghosts that first haunted him 50 years ago? 1960's re-tread!

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