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Intro: "Voters are increasingly displeased with President Obama's handling of the economy, but a new poll finds most Americans still think George W. Bush is responsible for the nation's dismal financial state."

Former President Bush hugs President Obama at his inauguration. (photo: Paul J. Richards/AFP/Getty Images/Newscom)
Former President Bush hugs President Obama at his inauguration. (photo: Paul J. Richards/AFP/Getty Images/Newscom)

Voters Blame Bush More Than Obama for the Economy

By Holly Bailey, The Ticket/Y!News

16 July 11


oters are increasingly displeased with President Obama's handling of the economy, but a new poll finds most Americans still think George W. Bush is responsible for the nation's dismal financial state.

According to a new Quinnipiac poll, 54 percent of those surveyed say Bush is responsible for the "current condition" of the economy, compared to just 27 percent who blame Obama. Among self-described independent voters, a key 2012 voting bloc, the number shifts slightly: 49 percent point the finger at the former GOP president, while 24 percent blame Obama.

Supporters of Obama's re-election will no doubt view the number as a good sign for the president's bid for a second term. But they shouldn't get excited yet.

Polls over the last year have consistently found that voters continue to blame Bush more than Obama for the struggling economy. Yet Obama and Democrats have consistently struggled to translate that displeasure with Bush into a vote against GOP candidates.

But that could be changing. While Obama's approval rating on the economy is nothing short of dismal - just 38 percent approve - the Quinnipiac poll finds more Americans trust the president on the issue than the GOP congress, 45 percent to 38 percent. Meanwhile, 48 percent of those surveyed say they will blame the GOP congress if a debt deal isn't approved, compared to 34 percent who say they will blame the Obama administration.

Those aren't great numbers for Republicans who are likely to face just as much political peril as Obama in 2012 if the economy doesn't improve over the next year.

The Quinnipiac poll also finds major support for one of the concessions Obama has called for in the debt deal: 67 percent say any deal on the deficit should also include tax increases on the wealthy and corporations, in addition to spending cuts. your social media marketing partner


A note of caution regarding our comment sections:

For months a stream of media reports have warned of coordinated propaganda efforts targeting political websites based in the U.S., particularly in the run-up to the 2016 presidential election.

We too were alarmed at the patterns we were, and still are, seeing. It is clear that the provocateurs are far more savvy, disciplined, and purposeful than anything we have ever experienced before.

It is also clear that we still have elements of the same activity in our article discussion forums at this time.

We have hosted and encouraged reader expression since the turn of the century. The comments of our readers are the most vibrant, best-used interactive feature at Reader Supported News. Accordingly, we are strongly resistant to interrupting those services.

It is, however, important to note that in all likelihood hardened operatives are attempting to shape the dialog our community seeks to engage in.

Adapt and overcome.

Marc Ash
Founder, Reader Supported News

+80 # NanFan 2011-07-16 14:10
A DUH moment! What correct thinking individual does not understand that what Obama inherited was the biggest mess in American history.

But...always "a but"...why, oh why, did Obama pardon Bush and Cheney for their obvious criminal and unconstitutiona l acts?

I have always loved Obama, and yet, he did this "forgiveness" of criminals anyway. Polls or no polls...Obama is NOW responsible for this mess.

Bush should be in jail.

-52 # TommyD1of11 2011-07-16 15:31
If Bush is a war criminal for launching supposedly "unconstitution al" wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, then isn't Obama's use of "kinetic energy" (i.e. the bombing of Libya) also unconstitutiona l? Is Obama now too a war criminal?

At least Bush got congressional approval. Obama didn't even feel the need to bother before attacking Libya.

Libs, you can't have both ways.

If "the WAR fits, you must CONVICT".
+64 # Regina 2011-07-16 16:16
Both Iraq and Afghanistan were the obnoxious obsessions of the "neocons" and the oil-fogged plutocrats Bush and Cheney. Libya was a decision and action by NATO, of which the U.S. is a member. Furthermore, the Bush-Cheney-Wol fowitz-etc wars were rushed into without any financial preparation, as well as a pack of outright lies, and we now have inherited the debts as well as the deaths. Of all the "ways", those of the rabid right are hell.
-11 # TommyD1of11 2011-07-18 08:13
You're joking, right? You can critize the Iraq and A-stan wars all you want, but then to decalare Libya somehow the good war is ridiculous.

How can you so blindly overlook these same factors in Libya:

* "oil-fogged" ... as if Libyan oil is not a factor

* "a decision and action by NATO" ... and that absolves America which is the single most important (indeed the only truly important vote) within NATO

* "rushed into without an financial preparation" ... that's a good one. We're in the middle of one of the biggest financial crisis in history with the naton going broke and Obama decides we must spend $ hundres of $ millions bombing Libya.

* "a pack of outright lies" ... ah, dud. Remember when Libya was just about protecting civilians and not regime change. Oh, that lie by Obama lasted, what, a day, maybe two.

So, Regina, if the "rabid right are hell" than what are we to call the rabid, war mongering, Four.More.WARS, Ba.rrack O.BAMA?
-1 # billy bob 2011-07-19 14:04
What's with all the periods?
+8 # jon 2011-07-16 18:09
Cool, but Bush and Cheney first!
+2 # soularddave 2011-07-16 21:29
Professional courtesy?
+18 # Progressive Patriot 2011-07-17 01:35
Bush's invasion of Iraq violates the US Constitution, on the grounds that under Article VI the UN Charter is part of United States Law, and he violated the UN Charter.

The invasion of Iraq was completely unjustified, in that, when we invaded, Iraq did not even impose a threat to their neighbors. Bush justified it on 10-year-old history that was no longer valid. Despite claims by many, the Iraqi people are NOT better off under the current regime than they were under Saddam Hussein. Yes, he was a despot, and he killed people, but he also built (secular) schools and hospitals, they had electric power and water and sewers, and under him the Iraqi people were highly educated. They were not a "Muslim threat", as the terrormongers want us to believe. In fact Hussein kept terrorism at bay, and there were NO al Qaida in the country when he was in power ... he would not have tolerated them, because they were a threat ... to him.

Yes, Obama might very well be prosecutable for war crimes under international law. He has continued both of Bush's "official" wars, continued (and increased) illegal (under international law) drone attacks on Pakistan, instigated drone attacks on Yemen and Somalia, and joined and continues to carry out a questionably legal "assistance to the rebels" in Libya, in violation of the War Crimes Act.
+9 # SOF 2011-07-17 12:59
Agree. And you forgot to mention the part about Iraq/Saddam H. being the enemy of Iran. They hated and feared each other. If anything, rumors of weapons were intended for Iran's ears. Also Iran and Iraq were two diferent branches of Islam that balanced each other. And also, every inch of Iraq is a major archeological site -something Americans do not appreciate (the lack of security for the museum, and American treatment of native sites and even Sacred Sites. and the great losses of urban 'renewal'. The oil people did get most of the oil which had been nationalized under Saddm H. and paid for the schools, sewers, etc. Now they retain only a small percentage of that potential income. I hope the rabid 'Christian' warmongers are happy that Christians have fled, and the last Aramaic- (Jesus' language) speaking community is gone. Apparently Saddam was supporting and protecting Christian and Jewish sites. Bin Laden said he would break us financially. Despite warnings from around the world, It seems Bush/Chaney/Wol fowitz/Rumsfeld were either in collusion or stupid or thought they could get away with it. I call it treason.
+3 # Will Solly 2011-07-18 03:22
SOF you have stated exactly and clearly what the Iraq situation was and is.
-10 # TommyD1of11 2011-07-18 08:22
If Saddam were still in power, Iraq and Iran would both be in a nuclear arms race. This would cause Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Turkey to join the race to get nukes. Of course, this may still happen with Iran; but one nation is easier to contain (or, my strong preference, to bomb before they get nukes, or alternatively, to destabilize before they nukes).

Worst of all, a nuclear face-off between
Iran's Amadinejad and Iraq's Saddam, al la "The Missles of October" would like have resulted in a missle launch, follwed by dozens more.

As bad as Iraq was, the world is still better off with Saddam.

Be patient, be strong, and be resolute. Iraq will continue to be an ultimate success for world peace.
0 # billy bob 2011-07-18 22:24
let me paraphrase your logic:

bush bombing iraq = GOOD
obama bombing iraq = BAD
bush bombing afghanistan = GOOD
obama bombing afghanistan = BAD
bush bombing iraq and afghanistan for oil = GOOD
obama also bombing libya for oil = BAD
liberals complaining about bush's conservative lies = BAD
liberals complaining about obama's conservative lies = you didn't notice because you don't actually pay attention to anyone else's comments

Correct me if I've mischaracterize d your statements. Also, feel free to explain the logic.
-1 # TommyD1of11 2011-07-20 11:09
bibbly bob,

You and I do disagree on fighting the War on Terror (I prefer "War on Radical Islamists"). I believe:

-Radical Islamists are not driven by past grievances, but by their fascist religious ideology seeking world caliphate
-Radical Islamists are prepared to fight for 500 years whereas most Americans are unwilling to fight another 5 years (history tells us who wins that fight)
-Radical Islamists will get nukes within 5, 10, 20 or 30 years and will use them on American cities (perhaps a dozen in a single day)
-This is a trans-border war fought by non-state forces; therefore, thinking in terms of traditional state-on-state, border constrained wars is unworkable. Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Yemen, etc. are NOT wars; but, rather battle spaces in a global war (since America has been actively fighting Islamists in the Philippines for years, and Radical Islamists have allied themselves with Left Wing regimes in Nicaragua, Venezuela, and elsewhere in Latin America.
-That Iran soon gain regional hegemony by getting nukes and that this will destabilize the Middle East, and ultimately lead to the elimination of Israel.
-The faster we defeat Radical Islamists the safer and freer we’ll all be.
-4 # TommyD1of11 2011-07-20 11:23
billy bob,

WRONG. You have absolutely mischaracterize d my logic.

My statements above are only to point out the inconsistencies of (most) Libs. I am mocking them.

You, like I, understand the necessity of consistency; indeed, the integrity of consistency.

No doubt, you too have been frustrated by Libs who ignore Obama's lies, etc.
+9 # rf 2011-07-17 05:38
One other difference you fail to mention about these two a#*holes is that Bush lied to get his war...didn't see Obama doing that.
-8 # TommyD1of11 2011-07-18 08:26
How could you possibly be more blind? Really, dude. You should hire professional help to extract your cranium from you annus.

OBAMA "we're only there to protect the civilians" wink, wink.

OBAMA "Kadafi must go"

Dude, it's all about regime change and nothing about protecting civilians.

+5 # Bob ODonnell 2011-07-18 18:40
It's always libs and conservs. How about American. Why not be a real patriot. UNDERSTAND and be KNOWLEDGEABLE. Get a life and be thoughtful and use other than political expletives. Shallow; a name, darn.
+5 # billy bob 2011-07-18 23:22
Are there some Americans you agree with? Are there some Americans you disagree with? Do you agree with the conservative vision for America? Do you agree with the liberal vision? Do you honestly believe it doesn't make a difference?

You can sit on the fence, but political disputes have winners and losers. Fence sitting doesn't change that fact.
-3 # TommyD1of11 2011-07-20 11:11
billy bob,

Well said. See, we agree on something. Now, can't we all just learn to love each other! How about a group hug.
+2 # billy bob 2011-07-20 13:02
How about we just learn to argue respectfully and honestly? Also, agreeing to actually pay attention to the issues before insulting the other side would be a big improvement.

Do we still agree?
-1 # TommyD1of11 2011-07-20 14:30
billy bob, I'm willing to try if you are.

However, I still reserve the right to make fun or whatever of some others on RSN. Furthermore, just because someone feels insulted by my comments does not mean that my comments were inappropriate. I agree that gratutious insults are a cheap shot. But, I will not be restricted by the rules of Politically Correct speech just because some overly sensitive individual might take offense. After all, "it's still a free country". [Hey billy bob, I know you're old enough to remember when that was a commonplace expression. Alas, it's been a long time since either of us has heard a young American so proclaim their freedom of speech].

And, likewise, I don't hold you to high standards regarding others who don't.

PS - don't be so quick to assume that someone expressing an opposing viewpoint has not indeed 'paid attention to the issues before insulting the other side'.
-1 # billy bob 2011-07-20 16:55
I'm a little angry at RSN for not displaying my responses to you from earlier today, but continuing to show yours.

The trouble is that you haven't paid attention. If you reserve the right to dish it out, you should be willing to take it. Your arguments are still just as dishonest.

I'd still like you to answer why it's ok for bush to bomb the 3rd world but not Obama.

Are you really trying to say that you agree with President Obama's right-wing conservative foreign policy completely, and you're just ridiculing the liberals who are offended that they elected a stealth conservative?
+17 # Archie1954 2011-07-16 15:56
NanFan you are 100% correct!
+26 # Barbara V. 2011-07-16 17:08
...and Cheney should be on death row.
+12 # Blue Skies 2011-07-17 08:35
Barbara you are so right. And Bush should also join his cohort to keep him company and to both pay for the sins they both committed against Humanity
+8 # Blue Skies 2011-07-17 08:39
Barbara, I totally agree and Cheney should be accompanied by his cohort Bush who both committed sins against humanity causing the unnecessary deaths of thousands and deserve to be punished.
+13 # Progressive Patriot 2011-07-17 01:11
There has been NO presidential pardon for Bush or Cheney. The Justice Department has said that they are no longer investigating a lot of crimes of the Bush administration, but that does NOT mean that they cannot be prosecuted in the future, by another administration. The fact is, there is no statute of limitations on their war crimes, and any of them might still be prosecuted in absentia by the International Criminal Court ... or by that judge in Spain.
+2 # Progressive Patriot 2011-07-17 01:39
And Obama continues to adhere to the Zionists of Israel ... which could constitute Treason under Article III, Section 3: "Treason against the United States, shall consist ... in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort..." (Subject to interpretation of whether the Zionist State of Israel is our enemy ... they are NOT our friend ... remember the USS Liberty!) But ALL presidents since (at least) 1967 have bowed to the Zionists will, often against the interests of most of the world's population.
+55 # robert allen 2011-07-16 14:20
the republicans are definetly trying to pull a fast one they are the entire blame for not reaching an agreement and also for the loss of many jobs obama did not cost 160,000 jobs as the gop claims they have never tried to work with our president because they dont want to believe an unknown person could beat them at the polls they are also trying to stop many minorities from being counted on the voting this is really true and not their first attempt to do so it happened in 2000 also i firmly believe vote were hidden
+26 # tomo 2011-07-16 14:28
This is a helpful article for those trying to guess winners and losers in the competition for office--which seems to be all that most of us mean by politics today.

Regarding who's REALLY to blame, Bush or Obama, it's the misdirection of attention on which many magicians's tricks depend. They've BOTH been faithful stewards of a corporate agenda which intends unimaginable riches and powers for global corporate executives and their hangers-on--an agenda that any thoughtful person has to see can continue only by destroying the game it wants to win.
+22 # LizR 2011-07-16 15:49
Quoting tomo:
This is a helpful article for those trying to guess winners and losers in the competition for office--which seems to be all that most of us mean by politics today.

Regarding who's REALLY to blame, Bush or Obama, it's the misdirection of attention on which many magicians's tricks depend. They've BOTH been faithful stewards of a corporate agenda which intends unimaginable riches and powers for global corporate executives and their hangers-on--an agenda that any thoughtful person has to see can continue only by destroying the game it wants to win.

Exactly. The current system is a suicide machine, it's in nobody's interests.

However those at the top don't want to give up their mansions and jets, so they are taking the rest of us down with them. This is the way the world ends - not with a bang but a Wimpy (and a Big Mac).
+1 # oldleftie 2011-07-16 14:50
Fix the links.

The requested URL /http:/www.quin 5.xml?ReleaseID =1624 was not found on this server.

Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.
-1 # oldleftie 2011-07-16 14:57

you left out a /
-67 # TommyD1of11 2011-07-16 15:13
Nice try, Libs. But, a year and three months from now in Nov 2012 with unemployment well over 9%, few will take seriously Obama's campaign slogan "It's all Bush's fault", "It's all Bush's fault".

Instead, may a suggest a more accurate slogan for the Obama campaign:

Four . More . WARS!
Ba . rrack . O . BAMA!
Four . More . WARS!
Ba . rrack . O . BAMA!

Kinda has a nice ring to it, doesn't it?

Four . More . WARS!
-20 # TommyD1of11 2011-07-16 16:28
Just wondering ... now that Obama has launched unprovocked and ongoing attacks on Libya and is also bombing Parkistan and Yemen, does he have to give back his Noble Peace Prize?
+28 # klondikekitty 2011-07-16 17:51
The only reasons i can possibly accept for your totally unbelievable comments is that you are one of the wealthy elite the Repubs are working so hard to protect . . . either that, or you are incredibly misinformed and watch 'way too much Faux News and listen to Rush Limbaugh every day . . !
+12 # billy bob 2011-07-16 19:36
Even that wouldn't explain it. His comments seem completely self-contradict ory in a way that limb-blow would probably do a better job of masking.
+5 # NanFan 2011-07-17 02:35
Quoting klondikekitty:
...and listen to Rush Limbaugh every day . . !

Or he IS Rush Limbaugh!

-3 # TommyD1of11 2011-07-18 08:31
OK, klondikekitty,
You got me. I'm a mega billionaire who eats babies for breakfast - NOT.

So, what's so "unbelievable" about my comments?

Is it not true that Obama is bombing in Yemen, Pakistan, Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan?

I guess you might call Obama's war mongering actions INCONVENIENT TRUTHS".

Yup, definitely time for Obama to give back his Nobel Peace Prize.
-1 # TommyD1of11 2011-07-20 11:16
Sorry to disappoint you, but I am not rich. And, I've been poor, though now I'm doing reasonably well.

Klondikekitty, what's so "unbelievable" about my comments? Has not Obama launched an unprovocked war to accomplish regime change in Libya? How can you be so blind to this obvious fact? Why attack me for pointing it out?
+9 # Ken Hall 2011-07-16 21:43
TommyD1: Peek around the blinders of your ideological obsession, there's a whole 'nother world out there.
-2 # TommyD1of11 2011-07-18 08:36

Relax, take a deep breath and be sure to take your meds.

Exactly who is wearing "blinders"? You Libs go crazy over Bush's war mongering, but ignore the exact same actions, and worse, by Obama.

That is my simple point.

Now, that wasn't so hard was it?

Or, at least one might think it won't be so hard. Judging from all the insane responses and "thumbs down", it is obviously hard to Libs to live with the facts that Obama has kept Gitmo, Iraq, Afghanistan (actually, greatly expanded, as promised), Libya, Pakistan, reditions, Patriot Act, etc.

COGNITIVE DISSONANCE can be such a bitch!

Can't it?
+1 # billy bob 2011-07-18 13:52
Why did you reply to everyone but me? To paraphrase my comment, "what are you trying to prove?"

-That Obama's too conservative?
-That liberals don't complain about Obama's conservatism enough for you?
-1 # TommyD1of11 2011-07-20 11:23
billy bob,

NO. Obama is no Conservative. Lib Democrat presidents have launched many wars, indeed, most our wars: Wilson (WWI), FDR (WWII), Truman (Korea, though Harry really wasn't that Lib, oh, and he did use nukes on Japan), JFK (Vietnam, first troops deployed), LBJ (Vietnam, maissively expanded), Obama (Libya, Yemen, etc.). So, lauching wars is no proof of being a Conservative.

YES. "That liberals don't complain about Obama's [stike "conservative", replace with "actions"] enough".
+10 # billy bob 2011-07-16 19:34
Um… I’m just trying to decipher your logic...

Are you saying that, yes, bush is a war criminal and should be in jail right now, but the left shouldn't point that out, because Obama's one too?

Does bush get any of the blame for what happened before Jan. 2009 when Obama took office? If your point is that Obama hasn't been liberal enough and is secretly too much of a repugnican as well, I'm right on board. I'm just trying to understand your spin.

Who would YOU vote for to take Obama's place?

Because, to me, it sounds like this is just some sort of game to you, like war crimes are a football penalty statistic.

Do you actually read any of the articles or other comments before you add yours? Since you don't seem to notice, we on the left are pretty angry about Obama acting too much like bush. YOU on the other hand seem to think you're scoring points FOR BUSH by ALSO pointing out that Obama is too much like bush. According to your logic, bush was better, because he was a conservative, whereas your complaints about Obama have to do with OBAMA'S conservatism....


I'm sorry, but my head is spinning in the maze of your circular logic. I suffer the same problem every time I read one of your comments.

Could you please explain what you're trying to prove?
0 # TommyD1of11 2011-07-20 11:37
billy bob,

Thank you for your more thoughtful response.

My "spin" is that I am trying to hold Libs to a consistent logic (if what Bush did was evil, then it must be likewise when done by Obama; justice must be judged by actions, not by the person). You obviously get this. However, many, if not most, Libs don't. Too many Libs think it’s OK for Obama to do it; but everything Bush, Cheney, Bachmann, Palin, Reagan do must be evil.

Simply put, you can't have it both ways.

War is definitely not a game to me. War is the most horrible of man's abominations.

I take war far more seriously than most Libs who think that if America just leaves the battlefield, then peace will break out. History teaches us otherwise. Left alone, Hitler would have exterminated every Jew in Europe. The Japanese would have colonized all of Asia. In Vietnam, we "gave peace a chance", but then after we left the Communists slaughter 3 to 5 million people (the Boat People fleeing Vietnam's brutal re-education camps, the Killing Fields of Cambodia and the genocide (ongoing) of the Montagnard tribes in Laos).

Left undefeated, Radical Islam will only grow stronger and more violent, gaining control of the entire Middle East and eventually obtaining nukes. This is why I take war very serious, as if our lives depend upon it.
-2 # billy bob 2011-07-20 12:55
You didn't respond to me with a thoughtful response though. Why is "radical Islam" the enemy unless a Democrat drops bombs on it? Why the sudden concern about Hitler, when it was conservatives who thought he should be left alone at the time? Where is all this nonsense that the left isn't holding President Obama accountable for being too conservative?

The complaints you weild against Obama are regarding his conservative foreign policy. Liberals are a lot more angry than you are about it. The trouble is that, that reality doesn't fit into your narrative.

Why the sudden and uncharacteristi c "serious" tone? During this whole back and forth with you, you haven't taken the comments of anyone seriously. Now, suddenly, as I call you out on your obviously transparent hypocrisy, several days later, you get "serious"?
+19 # Progressive Patriot 2011-07-17 02:05
And just who, exactly, TRASHED our economy?

Reagan and Bush I added $4 TRILLION (which had traditionally been _below_ $1 Trillion throughout our previous 200 years) to our National Debt with their tax cuts for the greedy rich, and shifting the tax burden to the lower income levels. By the end of Clinton's 8 years, the steep climb had all but leveled out. Bush II added another $4 TRILLION, with even bigger tax cuts ... which admittedly Obama should NOT have allowed to continue.

If I'd taken the oath of office on January 20th 2009, I'd have _immediately_ cancelled Bush's tax cuts, by executive order, and asked Congress to _increase_ taxes on the richest, to balance their use of government with the amount they pay to support it. I'd also have demanded that no subsidies would be paid to any corporation that doesn't pay income tax.
+3 # lawNOrder 2011-07-17 22:26
Executive order cannot cancel law. A law repealing the law must be drafted, ratified by BOTH Houses of Congress, and then signed by the sitting POTUS. Or the 'sunset provisions' must be enacted... Get off the internets, listen to "Schoolhouse Rock" a hundred times, DON'T run for any public office until you know how the system is supposed to work....
-9 # rf 2011-07-17 05:42
Who needs a Bush when you've got an Obama?
-5 # Lute 2011-07-17 09:20
Yes, Cornel West was correct: Obama is simply a House Negro for vested interests, including Wall Street ($5 trillion, a mere $700 billion on Main Street), the Shrub regime (and Obama was a teacher of Constitutional law?!), the military-indust rial complex (we are in the belly of that beast), Government Sachs (oh, excuse me! Goldman Sachs), and insurance companies (who reap the benefits of no competition from a public option for health care). And now Obama is talking like a Republican about deficit reduction -- thus, reductions in gov't spending -- during a recession (excuse me: "jobless recovery"). Obama is as braindead as Shrub, but he lacks Shrub's brass. A one-term president.
+5 # Lurch 2011-07-17 10:40
Obama is a corporatist, but even in a bad economy, I can't imagine any of the passengers in the Republican clown car defeating him for re-election.
+2 # billy bob 2011-07-17 18:12
He's going to need a serious challenge from the left.
+2 # lawNOrder 2011-07-17 22:33
And YOU sir, are just a racist. Cornel West is a man, he does NOT speak for nor is he the sage for 'colored people', you hide your bias behind his rhetoric, so you can use the term 'Negro' just because CW used it. You can also use Ni**** too, since rappers have used it, as long as you are looking for cover. Glad you can use the 1st Amendment, but why not just be upfront, you were never an Obama supporter and you came here to TROLL.
+9 # GTrout 2011-07-17 08:18
What's good for the goose...I remember, six years into W's reign, my disgust at the continued blame thrown at Clinton to explain away any and all problems that Republicans were taking any heat for. And now this cynical attempt to hold one of their own as totally blameless the day after leaving office.
-3 # forparity 2011-07-18 17:50
President George Bush blaming Clinton? You've got to be kidding. Sure, there was a time or two when the press was hounding him about how hard it was to get the economy going again after the mess that he inherited - but he had to be pushed to correct them - reminding them, that he inherited a mess.

It seldom just came off his lips, and it seldom came from his team.

And after he left office, the gracious and respectful man, Pres. Bush, still refuses to blame others, or to attack this current administration - unlike a few other recent holders of the office.

This bunch is different - Blame is their M.O.

In fact, is there a day in which we haven't heard it - either from Obama, Biden, his staff, leading Democrats or directly from out national media - which defends him on most everything.

And once again, this past week, it still gets to me (too bad the press is covering once again for Obama) why Obama, like Clinton before him, is so afraid to meet publicly - officially - with the Dalai Lama. What is that about. Goodness, not only did Bush meet with him several times officially, Bush awarded him the country's highest civilian award - the prestigious Congressional Gold Meda - in a public ceremony, and challenged China to meet with the Dalai Lama.

Hide the meetings, and send him out the back door Obama.
+42 # angelfish 2011-07-16 15:51
It's Bush's to acknowledge and OWN, not for the people to blame him. In his abysmal ignorance and blithe approach to his Presidency, he glibly allowed the evil machinations of OTHERS in his Administration to wreak their Havoc on us! THAT is his REAL sin, his Ignorance is what has almost destroyed us, and NOW, his proteges and minions would finish us OFF by obstructing any and ALL meaningful Legislation that might HELP us! It is sheer MADNESS! The ReTHUGlicans don't give a DAMN about the issues facing Americans today, all they care about is bringing this President DOWN! It is PURE Treason!
+38 # MainStreetMentor 2011-07-16 16:04
President Cheney, and his underling Bush, tried to resurrect the failed theory of "trickle-down" economics of the seriously flawed Reaganomics fiasco. While they won the battle of trying to implement it, they lost the economic war (proven by the Paulson edict of "the sky is falling" when in the last months of the Cheney/Bush kakistocracy it was evident the economy was in the pits. Yep ... Cheney/Bush are the architechs of the disaster that was allowed to be manifested through investment bankers of Wall Street.
+7 # Russell Voice 2011-07-16 23:43
Quoting MainStreetMentor:
President Cheney, and his underling Bush, tried to resurrect the failed theory of "trickle-down" economics of the seriously flawed Reaganomics fiasco. While they won the battle of trying to implement it, they lost the economic war (proven by the Paulson edict of "the sky is falling" when in the last months of the Cheney/Bush kakistocracy it was evident the economy was in the pits. Yep ... Cheney/Bush are the architechs of the disaster that was allowed to be manifested through investment bankers of Wall Street.

Actually the whole financial fiasco mirrors the unpunished criminal acts by the Keating-5 with 3 of them INCLUDING THE INSTIGATOR NEIL BUSH, JOHN MCCAIN & JOHN GLENN are still wreaking havoc anyone that paid attention knows the Keating 5 stunt was nothing but a damn real estate swindle, (Heck back in the 80's Maidenator Ahnald invested heavily by literally cornering cable tv installation which upon Congress excusing McCain & Glenn only on their "hero" status the 2 wasted no time running to the West & crafting the catv telecomm scheme that through the Carlyle Group, who were the Iraqi Governing Council too partnered with KB & HCA Hospital Association & bought PAN-AM SAT (oh it just happens to be the entire Clarke Arc fleet of North American Satellite's This data WAS available from Hoover's back in 2004)
-48 # e urdanoff 2011-07-16 16:21
the left won't be happy until we turn into Greece, which is where we are headed; Bush did a lot of dumb things but Obama added the trillions in "stimulus" (hah!) and Obamacare debt that are sinking this once great nation
+12 # billy bob 2011-07-16 19:39
Are you refering to the same Greece that just had to be bailed out by Germany?

Of course I don't need to remind you that Germany is a completely socialistic country.

Are you suggesting that Obamacare doesn't go far enough and that we should have single-payer like Germany? Are you suggesting that our country become completely socialistic like Germany and the other countries that recently bailed out the Greeks?
+5 # Kiwikid 2011-07-16 21:39
You make that sound like its a bad thing. Of course your reply could be tongue in cheek - I'm having difficulty discerning - so many Americans seem to have this phobic reaction to the possibility of 'socialism'. As if its a harbinger of the end of the world. The mere mention of its possibility makes many of you froth at the mouth. I don't get it. Why is that? It sounds as though you still have echoes of Joseph McCarthy ringing in your ears.
+5 # billy bob 2011-07-16 22:10
I was merely posing a question that I believe points out the extreme hypocricy of the right. e u was complaining about the President being too much of what the right calls "a socialist". His complaint was focused on the fact that Greece had to be bailed out - NEVER MIND that the countries bailing Greece out are ACTUALLY socialistic. In other words, the argument that this country is becoming too socialistic which will turn us into another Greece is 180-degrees the opposite of the truth.

I'm an American who can remember the time after 1950, so OF COURSE I have echoes of mccarthy ringing in my ears.

The echoes of mccarthy were SCREAMING in my ears on 9-11 when I watched cable news interview people like tom clancy already claiming that we needed to stop being squeemish about torturing, assasinating and kidnapping people.

What mccarthy was to the 50's was just a tiny fragment of what has become a permanent attitude by those willing to sacrifice our country for "homeland security".

Sorry you didn't get it.
+21 # Kiwikid 2011-07-16 23:50
I have trouble understanding the American mind. I live in New Zealand - By the definitions I hear from many of your compatriots, my home country is socialist. Apparently this is a bad thing. The freedom that we have supposedly lost provides us a first class state provided universal health care system. It provides a comprehensive benefit system for the unemployed and the sick. It looks after its most vulnerable. And it is a capitalist / free market economy. It is a land of opportunity where hard work and entrepreneurshi p are rewarded. Good grief, I sound like a marketing billboard. I didn't realise how good it is until I hear how things are in the US. And I reflect that those who think that their whole world will collapse if the state provides health care and essential services, have been blinded by business moguls who are benefitting at their expense. But at least they're free! Yes, free to die of preventable and treateable conditions; free to loose their homes, their incomes, their dignity, as they get ground down into poverty due to illness or economic conditions going south. They're free indeed!
+8 # billy bob 2011-07-17 08:08
You're preachin' to the choir with me. Now, if you could help the majority of us Americans (who, by the way, also agree with you) to convince the other 30% of us who are calling the shots, then we might be able to get on board.

But, understand that most Americans also want what you have, we just aren't allowed to have it.

We're not all as bad as "TommyD1of11". If we were, he would get so many thumbs down.
+1 # Fred Mitchel 2011-07-21 13:11
Andrew, do the politicians participate in the Universal health plans or are they above the fray? If they do, then New Zealand is different than the US. Here, the congress has cadillac plans and they are not included in the Obama plan. Had they abolished the plan used by congress for Obama's plan, it would have been more credible.
0 # Kiwikid 2011-07-30 02:47
Sorry, been away 2 weeks so you probably won't see this. Insurance company involvement in healthcare in New Zealand has been a relatively recent phenomena. When I was growing up (I'm now 56) there basically was only one system - all provided by the state. We now have a dual system where the State provides basic care for all, but it's triaged - that is those in most desperate need are attended to first. So for proceedures like hip replacements there tend to be quite long waiting lists. Many (who can afford it) however, choose private hospitals which allow them much faster access to care. - The private healthcare system (funded mostly by insurers) provide it almost immediately to those who can pay. So one can be faced with the almost farcical situation where I could front up to the surgeon for that hip replacement, and he could tell me, "yes, at this stage you're on the waiting list, and you're likely to get the job done in 12 months. However, if you've got a good insurance plan or you're willing to front up with $20,000 I can do it for you at the clinic down the road next Tuesday at 4pm." It's not perfect, but miles better than the system you poor sods suffer under.
-3 # forparity 2011-07-18 15:49
Well - McCarthy was a great friend of JFK and Bobby, was he not? Yes - Bobby was still defending him years later.

Assassination was accepted, as well by the leaders then.

And in FDR's days, internment was the way it was.

LBJ and the Viet war - Wow, so much to cover . .

Clinton and turning his back on genocide - time and time again, and on the world HIV/Aids pandemic, and on leaving the economic calamity of the (Enron) bubble (and creating the housing bubble), and on the ever present corruption around him and his friends . .

Times have changed.

They will continue to change.

However, as time goes on, it's always interesting to see what gets forgotten - forgiven, and what gets remembered by us.

Mostly pure politics and bias.
+2 # billy bob 2011-07-18 19:23
Typical of you to start the conversation a week late.

McCarthy was a republican - DEAL WITH IT.

FDR got us out of the Depression BEFORE World War II (which Republicans thought we shouldn't have fought because Hitler was no threat).

Kennedy wanted out of Vietnam before he was murdered.
LBJ was a conservative Democrat enlisted to help Kennedy's chances of winning in the South.

LBJ nearly brought down the Democratic Party by not listening to the majority of Democrats who wanted out of Viet Nam (instead he was agreeing with republicans).

Nixon promised to get us out of Vietnam if we elected him. He LIED.

Clinton was another CONSERVATIVE Democrat, but he was far better than any republican I can remember. You're right though, that he shouldn't have signed the deregulation bill written by REPUBLICAN Phil Graham that allowed the housing bubble to happen. Once again, he caved in to republican ideology.

Time will continue to change.

Your tired points that you keep making no matter how many times they're disproven

0 # forparity 2011-07-19 01:09
McCarthy was a close family friend of the Kennedy's. Bobby worked for him, and defended McCarthy, long after the Communist hearings.

Just what is it you want me to deal with?

While it is hotly debated about JFK-he did send in thousands of "advisers." I do tend to agree with you.

LBJ's lies to the country and Congress about Nam, make GW Bush look like Humpty Dumpty.His social and humanitarian visions/program s were as successful as any. Life is a twist.

Nixon began bringing home troops by the 100K's right off the bat. It was an ugly ending to an ugly war. Nixon actually delivered on his promise - 1st a truce agreement with the Viet Cong - which they reneged on-and then he got us out. Ugly-but he did fulfill his campaign promise.

The whole Clinton team was behind the deregs that you speak of, and still defends it as not being material in the current crisis.

Obama is on record in saying that the HUD led housing bubble created in the late 90's, while a good thing, in his view (LOL), got out of control. .something that I've long argued.

Had it not been for HUD's massive regulations pushed by Cuomo, Wall Street would have had little to play with.

What was dis-proven?

BTW - Bobby Kennedy was a staunch conservative compared to Obama and the current left - that's what he fought against.
0 # billy bob 2011-07-19 08:21
I assume you think people don't follow your history. You can't just wear people down into agreeing with your opinions by repeating them endlessly. This isn't fox.

You have a history going back months and most of the people who read these threads know how to access your past comments.

The pattern is that you make the exact same comments to every thread regardless of the subject matter. I respond, or if I’m lucky, someone else does. After about 5 days of back and fourth with no one else still reading except the two of us, you finally give up and start making the exact same comments to another article.

I could make your arguments for you and do a better job of it. I get the whole narrative. I'm just not buying it and neither is anyone else on these threads who isn't already another conservative.

Like I said, how many people do you honestly believe you've converted here? A lot of us spend a lot of time commenting, but you seem to have more time on your hands than any of us, because you don't care that none of what you say has had the slightest bit of impact.

Are you a liberal troll trying to point out the vapid and shallow nature of conservative arguments?

If not, you're the most ineffective right-wing troll on this site. Study MidwestTom. He’s a much better troll than you are.
-1 # forparity 2011-07-19 09:07
If I have a goal here, it's to wear down the hate and smear mongering that soils the atmosphere of our country.

And, I have no idea of what you were referring to, being a week late to something. You mentioned McCarthy - I offered a curious point.

In your rant back to me - you are in error in several points - yet you continue screaming at me, without noting such.

Little in life and the political world is so small and finite as you present in your black and white tiny little minority corner of the world.

A goal in our lives should be to find the good in people, in our leaders, etc., and highlight them, so that they find the strength to do more of that good. In turn, exposing the bad, is just as necessary. But to only ever, only see bad in one side, and only discuss the good in the other will destroy our humanity.
0 # billy bob 2011-07-19 10:12
Funny, I have the same goal.

You're right, I was wrong about you being a weak late. I got a lot of emails lately and it seemed like a long time ago when I first commented on this thread.

I didn't mention McCarthy. Andrew mentioned McCarthy. I didn't mention Kennedy. You did. I didn't mention LBJ. You did. I didn't mention Vietnam. You did. I didn't mention WWII. You did. I didn't mention AIDs research. You did.

None of those things has to do with the article.

Could you please point out some very strong positives about Presidents Clinton, Obama, Carter, Johnson, and Kennedy?

Please be specific, so I can see the "nuance" in your arguments, because you certainly haven't displayed any nuance on these threads.

Or to put it another way, "THERE YOU GO AGAIN"...

This article isn't about Vietnam, President Kennedy's popularity, AIDs research, Gore's back yard, or WWII.

From now on, when you copy and paste comments about those subjects to every thread no matter how outside the realm of the discussion, I will copy and paste the above comment.
-1 # forparity 2011-07-19 17:48
I was skimming thru, noticed the McCarthy mention, your comment. I did not notice that it was in response to something "andy" had posted.

You mentioned McCarthy 3 X's

I noted, "I offered a curious point," to the topic of McCarthy - in the vein of:

Folks would use Enron, as an example of why to hate Bush; however, the same folks would never draw the same comparison to Clinton. Enron, of course, came of age during the Clinton era -in fact, the Clinton admin was instrumental in creating Enron's empire here, and abroad.

My mention of JFK,RFK, LBJ, & Clinton, were in that same lens.

I did not state that you had mentioned any of them-only McCarthy.

Nixon did fulfill his campaign promise to get us out of Nam. I suggested, it was ugly.

Troop levels in Nam were 536K,end of 1968.

By the end of '69 - 475K
'70 - 335K
'71 - 155K
'72 - 24K
'73 - 50

In regards to the article and it's view and the context of the trust of my comments - is simply this:

Most folks hate Nixon (and usually misquote the major details) than they do LBJ. Numerous polls over the years, have asked questions of students:"Which pres do you associate with the Vietnam War," and few come up with LBJ. In school they were pounded with Nixon.

Or/ perhaps they read Doonsbury:
0 # billy bob 2011-07-19 18:26
Go back and read. Don't just skim. Look for this sentence:

"It sounds as though you still have echoes of Joseph McCarthy ringing in your ears"

I agree that LBJ was one of the Presidents during the Vietnam War. Do agree that it took Nixon 5 years and the Watergate scandal to "fulfill his promise"? Or is that too much for you to accept of history?

By the way, the article isn't about Nixon, or Enron, or Clinton, or LBJ, or Kennedy, or the ancient Greeks, or the opium wars, or the Bermuda Triangle. The fact that you can twist EVERY article into being about your own pet subjects is the problem. It's the reason no one but me takes you seriously enough to respond to.
-1 # forparity 2011-07-19 17:54
On Garry Trudeau - from an interview, in 2006.

Question: I’ve grown up with every president since JFK. I remember how froth-at-the-mo uth furious Nixon made people; and there was Reagan, who had people pulling out their hair. But compared to George W. Bush, Nixon and Reagan seem like wise men, even sages. But how do you see it? From your perspective, who is the scariest?

Trudeau: Well, you can’t leave Carter and Clinton off the list of presidents who made people apoplectic. But to me, Bush is the scariest because he is easily the most radical. Nixon still caused the most harm — 30,000 Americans and many more Vietnamese died needlessly on his watch — but don’t count Bush out. There are still plenty of countries to take down.

Why would he mention LBJ?

A quick rough count (from a year by year chart) shows that approx. 36,000 American servicemen died in Vietnam during the LBJ escalation of the war. 20,863 died between the time Nixon took over and the end of the war.

Trudeau is doing what he does best-lying, and doing it for a political reason. Sad thing is that he and so many more do this at will, with little chance that they will be called on it.

Polls are tough - but tend to show what the press has convinced folks of. A good straight pool, presented fairly, can overcome this.
0 # billy bob 2011-07-19 18:35

The article isn't about Doonsbury either, or your personal experience of being alive since the '60s, or polls in general and the stupidity of public opinion when it disagrees with yours, it's about CURRENT events, which I'm not sure you've even bothered to read.

You said,

"A goal in our lives should be to find the good in people, in our leaders, etc., and highlight them, so that they find the strength to do more of that good. In turn, exposing the bad, is just as necessary. But to only ever, only see bad in one side, and only discuss the good in the other will destroy our humanity."

I challenged you on that point. I asked you to prove that you weren't just talking out your ass by "pointing out some very strong positives about Presidents Clinton, Obama, Carter, Johnson, and Kennedy?" so I could "see the 'nuance' in your arguments, because you certainly haven't displayed any nuance on these threads."


WERE YOU just talking out your ass, or can you make a comment that isn't just a knee-jerk contrary opinion to anything said by liberals in order to distract from the subject of the article itself?
-1 # forparity 2011-07-19 19:21
You don't actually read a single word - and consider a thought, do you?

I offered a thought - I explained the context of it to the view of the article. If you don't agree fine - but why all of whatever it is that you're throwing into the pile.

If someone on these threads posts one of those - on the other side -typical, Clinton is an idiot, and never did anything of value, and was the biggest crook in history - you can witness as I rip em. OK?
0 # billy bob 2011-07-19 20:26
No, the problem is that I read EVERY word and take it seriously.

You offered a "thought" about looking at the other side and not demonizing it. The trouble is that you're unwilling to back it up.

You've now made 3 comments evading the challenge since it was issued. How many more comments will you make before you:

a) finally accept the challenge;
b) finally admit that you're unwilling to; OR
c) finally just stop posting on this thread and start the whole game again on a new thread?

I'm guessing you'll evade 2 more times then move on to option "c".

Who knows. Here's a chance to prove me wrong. I'd REALLY like to hear what nice things you have to say about every Democratic President from the past 50 years. I should have gone back to Truman, and FDR.

I'd REALLY REALLY LOVE to hear what nice things you have to say about FDR.
0 # forparity 2011-07-20 10:22
Well, I have mixed feelings on the development of the atomic bomb.

Read my little note -- two back up.I'd explained it more detail - but that did not get posted.

In the 1st part, I'm noting that the theme of the article is about how folks still blame Bush for most all. In complete context to that theme - in rebutting it - I mused about, via examples, of how this happens. I don't remember articles - nat'l polling - on-going discussions during 2001-03, seeking to blame Clinton on the economic fallout that Bush inherited, the millions dying in Africa in civil war and genocide, and from the HIV/Aids pandemic that Clinton, UN, turned their back on, or on why there was no "SaveAfghanista" theme when the Taliban seized control of Afghanistan in the mid-90's.

Of course the maj blame Bush; the WH, the Pres, the Dem Party, damn near the entire nat'l media carefully omits most history, and since 2002, has blamed him for most of it. I've ripped him for much too. Don't say not.

Compare - how often do you blame Carter for the disaster Reagan inherited.

He inherited it-we don't need to blame anyone.

Bush inherited a disaster-we don't need to blame anyone.

Obama inherited a disaster-we don't need to blame anyone.

Everyone is to blame. Both sides. And, ATM's.
-2 # billy bob 2011-07-20 12:46
Now you've made 4 comments evading the challenge.

I predicted that you'd evade two more times then move on to another thread. So far, your game plan is falling right in line with that prediction. I should work for Vegas.

It's not like I'm asking you to do much. I'm asking you to stand by YOUR OWN WORDS.

Are you up for it?
0 # forparity 2011-07-21 11:12
Well two more posts were not posted - I give up.

And why are you challenging me, on issues unrelated to my comments which were in relation to the article?

Just because you can't comprehend. I'm up for you to consider how my points.
-2 # billy bob 2011-07-21 19:09

Now you've made 5 comments evading the challenge.

As a reminder, the challenge is to see if you can point out the good in your political enemies the way you suggest we should be able to do with ours.

It was a very heartwarming speach you gave about, "finding the good in people, in our leaders, etc., and highlight them, so that they find the strength to do more of that good. In turn, exposing the bad, is just as necessary. But to only ever, only see bad in one side, and only discuss the good in the other will destroy our humanity"

Now, I want to see if you actually meant it or were you talking out your ass.

For the record, I feel your pain. RSN refused to display about 4 of my comments to TommyD1of11. I gave up on that conversation for the same reason.
0 # forparity 2011-07-21 20:13
You are really rude. bye
-1 # billy bob 2011-07-21 23:35
I WIN!!!

I predicted you'd evade 6 times total and then move on.


All of the talk about finding the good in others was just that: TALK.

It's easy to expect your political enemies to show you respect. It's a bit harder for you to actually show some for the rest of us.
0 # billy bob 2011-07-21 23:41
By the way, see you on the next thread where we can start the whole "debate" all over as if this one had never occurred.

You seem to need an audience.
0 # forparity 2011-07-19 21:52
disappointing that two of my comments did not get posted, I'll tell you that.
-1 # billy bob 2011-07-19 23:34
Try again. Sometimes I have to shorten mine to less than what RSN's little text box says I'm allowed. If they're too long, break them up. If they're too obscene, change the language.

Try again.
-1 # billy bob 2011-07-18 19:25
How many people do you think you've converted on this site?
+1 # Russell Voice 2011-07-16 23:59
Quoting billy bob:
Are you refering to the same Greece that just had to be bailed out by Germany?

Of course I don't need to remind you that Germany is a completely socialistic country.

Are you suggesting that Obamacare doesn't go far enough and that we should have single-payer like Germany? Are you suggesting that our country become completely socialistic like Germany and the other countries that recently bailed out the Greeks?

Had that faux Democrat Nelson not been one of the key players in the neocons scheme to eliminate their last obstacle which control sea ports & that is the TEAMSTERS, first BUSHCO INC planned that Canada to Mexico toll road through Eastern Colorado only now they moved it over to go through Omaha where THE GROUND UP NEW MEDICAID HOSPITAL WAS GOING
+3 # billy bob 2011-07-17 18:28
Repuglicans have been at this since the 1930s. To them, Social Security, Medicare, and the Voting Rights Act are the 3 worst things that have happened since 1929.

They will not EVER change. When I voted "for change", Obama becoming one of them wasn't the "change" I was looking for.
+17 # Ken Hall 2011-07-16 21:41
urdan: Last I checked, the things that were sinking this "once great nation" (your words) were brought to us by the conservative onslaught. Beginning with Reagan we've had "voodoo economics", which haven't trickled down in the least, "free markets", which don't really exist and were merely a ruse to legalizes greed, and "smaller gov't", which doesn't regulate anything that reduces the profits of corporations, no matter how it poisons and sickens the environment or kills and impoverishes the citizenry. The right won't be happy until all the US has returned to feudal serfdom. Thanks so much for your unthinking adherence to conservative cant. At least you're in the sinking boat with us, and we are probably too tolerant to throw you overboard.
+5 # Ken Hall 2011-07-16 22:34
I forgot to mention "borrow and spend", which beats "tax and spend" by a flatfoot mile.
+10 # soularddave 2011-07-16 21:46
Lots of the bailout money has been repaid already, and much of the stimulus money has trickled back in taxes. Projects paid for by stimulus money, like infrastructure, we sorely needed and the labor to build it paid lots of taxes.'
That was the idea, and it worked.

Neither idea was that of a President, and it was mostly on Congress, anyway, to provide - and they did, over a LOT of objection from the thugs on the right.
-3 # forparity 2011-07-18 17:59
Actually, I think that most of TARP - under Bush (supported by Obama) has been repaid.

Few if any of Obama's economic advisers who have departed are claiming that the Stimulus Bill (opposed by most Americans - by a slim margin) are claiming that it worked. It did do some good things. The tax cuts in it helped - even the corporate jet tax breaks probably helped a bit.

I'd be pressed to believe that "much" of the stimulus money has trickled back into tax revenue - certainly a little bit. Following the full implementation of the Bush stimulus, in 2003, federal tax revenue rose a whopping 44% from 2004 thru 2007 - but I'd have a hard time giving more than some of the credit to the tax cuts - some, of course - stimulus is stimulus. Most of it, was probably recapture (retracement ) of the $Trillions that disappeared from the projected tax revenue stream which collapsed when the bubble collapsed in 2000 - and took the economy down with it.

The bailout money for Freddie and Freddie, which some estimate may eventually reach $400 billion is never to be repaid - different scheme. The GM debacle is not exactly what it has been advertised - except that the Unions said that the deal was done, only for them. Figures.
+23 # humanmancalvin 2011-07-16 16:44
Maybe, just maybe: the Murdoch criminal activity in Britain is waking up some of the faithful Fox-Noise viewers to a tad of reality. If the propagandist is ever tried here in the states & convicted of like crimes, if Fox is ever taken off of the airwaves(not likely, too much $$ in all the right pockets) then the level of sane discourse that once was the norm of this country may yet reappear. A lot to dream for, but I have a dream & that it is too see a united country not tricked, lied to, manipulated & used & abused by the ultra wealthy & their corporations.

I feel like Alice in Wonderland who fell down a hole & awoke in an alternate reality sometimes when I realize the level of hate, citizen against citizen in a two party country that has never been so far apart in its political views.

Time to wake up fellow Americans & feel the hand trying to slip the wallet out of your back pocket!
+24 # fredboy 2011-07-16 16:52
Think, if you would, of how terrifying it would be if most US voters blamed Obama instead of Bush for the economic collapse and ongoing failure. It happened on Bush's watch. His team let it happen. And demanded $700 billion to pay off the pirates, refusing to explain what they would do with the money.

Had a majority believed it was the fault of the president who followed, it would clearly show the world Americans have reached a vulnerable level of stupidity. This is the real danger. As I have repeatedly warned, the whole world is watching.

Remember, the majority brought back the GOP House after it almost destroyed us. And the world was watching. And now that House has voted to annihilate the Clean Water Act--the key act focused on keeping our waters, our source of life itself, clean and safe. And the world is watching.
+17 # Blast Dorrough 2011-07-16 17:27
We must recognize that our constitutional Republic has been usurped by the evil Corporatecrafte rs of greed and corruption. The American Revolution was not only fought to be free of evil Kingcraft but evil Corpopratecraft and evil Christiancraft as well. Today's born-again alliance of the latter two represent what is false, evil and wrong about the United States. As our Moral Compass and only Authority under our constitutional Republic, the Constitution mandates a Republican form of government and in practice should be what is true, good and right for the public good, not a usurped government of, by and for the "born-again" Monarchists of imagined nobility. The Preamble to the Constitution mandates egalitarian and economic justice for the "general Welfare" and the real economic backbone of the United States, the working class, the small business owners and the Seniors thereof. The letter and spirit of the Preamble to the Constitution clearly mandates egalitarian and economic justice for the "general Welfare." Republic comes from the word publica, meaning the "public thing", the public good. Via elections we must exclude the greedy wealthy of imagined nobility from holding positions of political power. WE THE PEOPLE must reclaim our constitutional Republic free of all incorrigible and corruptive parasites mostly masked as "Republicans" and some as "Democrats."
+14 # Wolf Lacey 2011-07-16 17:35
I would like to have a news service with some guts to publish all the bills that the dems passed and couldn't get the Senate to act on them. THERE'S your problem with the budget.
+23 # AngryMan 2011-07-16 17:50
To "e urdanoff" and ilk: 30 years of Republican fiscal policies and voodoo economics got us where we are today. So, Obama is "dumb" because he cannot fix 30 years of Republican destruction in two years? With all due respect, and I think I speak for at least a couple of people ... blow it out your ass! I am sick of hearing how liberals are so terrible, yet whenever the economy takes a shit due to egregious Republican policies, we HAVE to elect a Democrat to fix things ... again. Often the truth is somewhere between "extreme" viewpoints. But sometimes, one extreme point of view is just batshit. Don't step in your guano.
+7 # Blue Skies 2011-07-17 09:35
AngryMan - You certainly speak for me. I too am sick and tired of the liberals cleaning up the crap left to the Libs from the Cons. What could be more obvious than what's happening right now. Obama is being crucified for trying to clean up the garbage left to us by the warmongers who spent like drunken sailors on two unnecessary wars and caused the death and maiming of thousands of our troops. Yet these NeoCons have the gall to criticize whatever this president does to fix this this huge deficit created and still defended by the Duh! republicans. To add insult to injury they have the unmitigated gall to insist on paying for this deficit on the backs of the working middle class, the poor and the aged and I could go on but the libs know what I'm talking about.
However the greedy fat cats get a free pass and get to keep their taxcuts, loopholes, subsidies etc. This is the kind of convoluted irrational thinking that got us where we are in the first place and these rabid teabagging religious fanatics are so busy protecting and defending their rich greedy friends, that they are willing to take away welfare from the needy and give corporate welfare to the jet-set who could care less what happens to America.
-3 # forparity 2011-07-18 12:26
Bush certainly didn't fix the crappy econ he inherited, did he? For fun, here are 3 views from the left on a bit more history:

"High priests of the bubble economy" - Baker

"The Legacy of the Clinton Bubble"

Andrew Cuomo and Fannie/Freddie- How the youngest HUD secretary in history gave birth to the mortgage crisis -

Our nat'l media has not shared much with the broad public. Goodness, most folks blame the Enron saga on Bush, instead of Clinton 1st.

Folks in CA blame the 2000 CA energy crisis, on Bush. Weird.

And even Dean Baker, the piece above, like so many others, long ago rewrote when the bubble collapsed - it collapsed in March of 2000 - with Bush inheriting the fallout.

Even Gore has corrected the media on that one.

An educated public would be more interested in finding out about how the economy works, rather than blaming only one.

A true leader, would stop the petty childish - generally false - always blaming someone else game.

To Obama, and his like-minded team - grow up and lead, or shut it up.
+1 # billy bob 2011-07-21 19:12
I agree. The problem is that the easiest way to clean up the mess the wars and military expansionism have caused would be to end them. He's unwilling to do that or even discuss it. As long as we can't discuss defunding the multiple wars or cutting military spending, we can't have an honest discussion about the budget.
+10 # wwway 2011-07-16 17:53
well, unless Republican/teas can come up with the right scare tactic to convince Americans otherwise there's hope for this country yet.
+3 # ruthee 2011-07-16 18:38
two of these last comments are imposs. for me to understand. angryman & wway, could you do a rewrite?
Seems to me we dont have honest Americans in charge of our voting processes. Seems to me only BIG BIG MONEY controls who gets to RUN for leadership. Seems to me "we the people" lost our way and our power a long time ago. Mebbe just before FDR was elected? I am frightened that i think Revolution is coming, but how much good can that do? When i am frightened or when I hurry, I make mistakes! Is that "where we're at?" ruthie
+9 # giraffee2012 2011-07-16 18:42
The Koch brothers own the GOP / TP due to the 2010 Supremes decision to give corporations "personhood" to give $$ to buy our government -- but the "personhood" does not allow anyone to SUE the big $$ that has taken our wealth

Google ALEC or go the URL -- and it's branches telling about Walker, Cantor, and a few others ....
+6 # T 2011-07-16 19:14
I agree. But that poll will never see the light of day on main stream media.
+9 # Progressive Patriot 2011-07-16 22:42
It goes back further than Bush II. I blame Ronald Reagan for the "dumbing down" of America, and putting the idea in people's heads that the government is what is wrong with America. That premise is STUPID. Government is a _necessity_ for a working society (which is why I could never support someone like Ron Paul).

Gerald Ford actually gave the first tax cuts to big corporations. Reagan gave them more, _plus_ drastically cutting taxes on the highest income levels, shifting the the expense of supporting the government to the middle and lower income levels, _and_ starting us on the downward slope of corporate deregulation, which has become a _major_ problem.

The rich _should_ pay the bulk of the cost of government, because they get the most benefit from government services.
0 # dupagedem 2011-07-17 09:46
As much as I agree with the "Bush-Cheney" war criminals, fiscal criminals, all around bad guys group, just imagine where we would be if the first thing Barack Obama did as President would be to put those guys on trial. He said we had to look forward, not backward, knowing how mired we would be in partisan crap (even more than we are now). The impeachment of Bill Clinton should have been lesson enough how easily this country can be distracted from what is really important.
+1 # SOF 2011-07-17 13:15
Merit to your perspective, but remind you that Clinton was cleared of the original charge of mishandling money -"whitewater" -so his enemies had to charge him with lying under oath about unrelated sex scandal-not good, but not a matter of treason. The Constitution urges us to impeach 14 different ways -I counted 13 of 14 that Bush could be guilty. It was our opportunity to investigate. Not impeaching was a grave mistake, has emboldened the liars and traitors.
+2 # Patricia Chang 2011-07-17 12:33
The Rethuglicans have done a much better job of selling their lies; while the Democrats remain weak and spineless, from the White House on down. Of course, the corporate-owned media is partly to blame. However, Obama has been so busy straddling fences and triangulating, he has failed to use his Bully Pulpit. He does not want to anger his corporate masters and buddies too much. He knows his grassroots supporters are leaving in droves; and is depending on Wall Street, et. al. to give him big donations, which they have. They hedge their bets. The candidate Obama was a piece of fiction. The real Obama has been a bad dream.Of course, we must be thankful McCain did not win. He is still fighting the Vietnam War and we would be at war with most of the planet by now. Bush produced a dreadful mess; but Obama's handling of that mess has been less than stellar. He had a majority in both Houses, and blew it. His lack of action on the economy caused the losses in 2010. Had he shown more wisdom, listened to Krugman, Stieglitz and Reich, we would be in much better shape, and would have kept many of the seats and state governments that were lost. He still refuses to listen to the voices of reason. There is a basic flaw in Obama's character. It is as though the more the public decries his policies, the more he is determined to blast ahead, be damned the consequences, like an immature teenager.
+2 # tuandon 2011-07-18 06:41
Has anyone pointed this out to those Tea Bag idiots in the House? Not that it would matter, I guess. They are past masters at ignoring facts.
+1 # kenward42 2011-08-25 21:09
Obama inherited nothing. He lied his way into the presidency using the tactics he learned from Chicago mafia politicos.
The principal blame for the economic problems actually lies with people like Senator Christopher Dodd, Barney Frank, Nancy Pelosi, Congresswoman Maxine Waters and Senators like Obama who assisted in the filibuster of the Republican party's attempt in 2005 (and actions of the Democrats in congress, and the senate, back as far as 2002) to rein in the excessively loose lending practices of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. There are several recordings online of Barney, Maxine and Nancy. During the build-up of the problems that eventually led to the financial collapse of our economy, Barney was, reportedly, literally in bed with one of the male vice presidents of one of those organizations. Go to the following sites to view the testimony before congress by several of these members to verify this information, and direct the blame for the economic problems that we are now facing. President Obama has demonstrated that he that he is in way over his head in his position as President of the united States. He was not qualified for the position when he lied his way through the campaign, and conned a major portion of the electorate into electing him.

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