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Excerpt: "If you care about incentives, you should care about everyone's incentives. The top 0.01 percent may like to imagine that it is the engine of the economy, but there is no good reason to believe that there is anything special about their role other than the fact that they make lots of money."

Portrait, New York Times columnist Paul Krugman, 06/15/09. (photo: Fred R. Conrad/NYT)
Portrait, New York Times columnist Paul Krugman, 06/15/09. (photo: Fred R. Conrad/NYT)



Whose Incentives?

By Paul Krugman, The New York Times

11 July 12

 

note on taxes, benefits, and incentives, inspired by the “we are VIP/engine of the economy” crowd.

There is no question that incentives matter, that other things equal, someone facing a high marginal tax rate will work less than he or she would otherwise. How much they matter is another issue; in fact, careful empirical study suggests that they matter far less than right-wing mythology would have it.

But there’s a further point: if you care about incentives, you should care about everyone’s incentives. The top 0.01 percent may like to imagine that it is the engine of the economy, but there is no good reason to believe that there is anything special about their role other than the fact that they make lots of money. Or to be a bit more specific, there is no reason to believe that there is a larger gap between the social marginal product of super-elite earners and their pay than there is for anyone else. (If anything, given the prominence of dubious financial activities in the top .01’s income, the presumption goes the other way). So if you’re worried about the effect of marginal tax rates on work incentives, you should worry about that effect at all income levels.

And here’s the thing: it’s actually a well-documented fact that effective marginal rates are highest, not on the superrich, but on workers toward the lower end of the scale. Why? Partly because of the payroll tax, but largely because of means-tested benefits that fade out as your income rises. Here’s a recent discussion by Eugene Steuerle (pdf), with this figure included:

So if you’re really, really concerned about incentives, you should focus not on top rates but on this lower-income trap. How can this be done?

Well, one answer is to be meaner to the poor; bringing us back to Dickensian conditions would reduce effective marginal tax rates, plus lead to a lot of starving children and such.

Another answer is to do less means-testing — for example, to provide universal health care, free school lunches for all, etc.. Of course, this would require more money, and hence higher marginal tax rates on higher incomes — but remember, those incomes aren’t where the acute incentive problems are to be found.

But in the real world, of course, conservatives want more means-testing, not less, so that they can afford to cut tax rates at the top. Social justice aside, this actually makes the “real tax system”, as Steuerle dubs it, even more distorted.

And all of this is justified with the mythology that the rich make a special contribution to the economy over and above the huge amounts they actually get paid. Funny how that works.

 

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+48 # BradFromSalem 2012-07-11 07:16
I never understood the concept of means testing every darn benefit that someone may get. The best example are school lunches.

First, only kids whose parent are too poor get free lunches. What defines too poor? To what level of detail do we need to examine a family's income in order to decide their gets a free meal. Who does that paperwork, and who gets to review it? What about the social cost to the kids when other kids find out who gets free lunches and who doesn't.
Remove all the overhead that includes archaic paperwork since the Republicans never want to invest in government information infrastructure unless its used to arrest people.
The Republicans are so worried about someone getting something for free that it trumps all other considerations including their disdain of government, and in the end their insatiable desire to eliminate all taxes, except on the poor.
 
 
+15 # soularddave 2012-07-11 09:14
Quoting LiberalLibertarian:

The Republicans are so worried about someone getting something for free that it trumps all other considerations


Are you talking about CINOs (Christians In Name Only)? Or are you talking about those timid folks who place themselves in gated communities where they don't ever see the homeless except on 54" TVs? Or those who's kids are in private school where lunch is included in the tuition? Maybe you're talking about people who don't FEAR getting sick and losing a day's pay that would sink their mortgage?
 
 
+19 # BradFromSalem 2012-07-11 10:33
You forgot to include the TP Republicans with jobs. They are much nastier than the rich ignorant people you listed. The ones you listed are often out of touch, the TP folks have no such excuse for being a-holes.
 
 
+23 # Texas Aggie 2012-07-11 12:28
Your comment on republicans is spot on. They are the original bite-off-your-n ose-to-spite-yo ur-face.

It's fine that a lot of eligible people are denied help as long as no one who isn't eligible gets help. In many cases it would be a lot cheaper to give free lunches and breakfasts to the whole school than to single out the 5% who wouldn't be eligible. The reduction in paperwork would more than pay for those 5%, but the right wing would rather pay extra to ensure that someone else doesn't get something that they might not be entitled to. I wish they were as concerned about getting something you aren't entitled to when it comes to CEO's.
 
 
+7 # mdhome 2012-07-12 09:37
I wish they were as concerned about getting something you aren't entitled to when it comes to CEO's.
Very good commentary.
 
 
+31 # Robert B 2012-07-11 07:51
The "special contribution" that the rich make goes straight to the Republican Party.
 
 
+42 # Bodiotoo 2012-07-11 08:34
Please check my math...but a 3% tax increase on a person paying on a million is $30,000.00 A lot of money to a poor person...and now contributions to the Romney get togethers are $50,000.00...pl us, REALLY?!
The burn is the rich dump the money on these empty suits to protcet themselves from giving a little to the masses.
Tired of Cake (crumbs), off with thier heads.
 
 
+6 # BradFromSalem 2012-07-11 09:10
Our tax system is progressive, meaning the rate is the same for everybody at the same level of income. If I make $100 and you make $200 and the rate is 10% for people who make $100 and 20% for people that make $200, under our system I pay $10 and you pay $30. We both paid $10 on the first $100, but that is all I made, you paid the same $10 on your first hundred and $20 on your second $100. So, if you made only $101 dollars you would pay $10.20, not the $20 you are calculating.
 
 
+8 # vtcc73 2012-07-11 11:09
You got it so right earlier then you make a comment that is correct as far as it goes if the tax system as a whole were as simple as your example. It is not. The federal income tax is mostly a progressive tax system but it is only one part of the overall taxation faced by all citizens. State sales taxes and federal and state payroll taxes disproportional ly effect lower income people. They take a large part of the income needed to live. Those dollars are not even notice for someone making even five to ten times, let alone hundreds of times, what they earn. I can't understand how anyone could read this article and not get the point Paul Krugman makes. If you reject that concept than at least be honest and state so.
 
 
+4 # BradFromSalem 2012-07-11 19:10
vtcc73,

I was not addressing Krugman's point in my reply to Bodiotoo. I was only speaking to Bodiotoos math of 3% on a person making a million dollars. The rest of Bodiotoo's comments make a lot of sense, I was clearing up a matter I believed B may have misunderstood.
 
 
+5 # soularddave 2012-07-11 09:16
Methinks you've stumbled onto something we all agree on!
 
 
+15 # mjc 2012-07-11 08:47
Waaay back, 2002 or so, the state of the economy rested on the consumer buying trends, up from the rates of manufacturing, for example, and was considered quite respectable as away of judging the state of the economy. And now the conservatives and mostly Republicans tell us not to tax the wealthy because they are the job creators. That is part of the mythology that being rich and having rich people...very rich people...in your society is good for the whole society. But what we find is that the wealthy corporate type people don't create jobs, rather, they wait for the economy to get better before risking spending money on more help or new help and hope the machines that do what they need to tread water. Means testing is for the lower strata of a society, not the wealthiest.
 
 
+7 # Vardoz 2012-07-11 09:06
And now with The TPP agreement we are in real trouble.
 
 
+22 # miltlau 2012-07-11 09:47
Krugman, who is almost always right, is wrong when he writes, "There is no question that incentives matter, that other things equal, someone facing a high marginal tax rate will work less than he or she would otherwise." The CEO when the marginal tax rate was over over 90%, worked just as hard as the CEO today who pays 35% (or 15% if he runs a hedge fund). In fact, some people work harder when their tax rate goes up to maintain the same standard of living. Tax rates and income possibilities have some effect, but not the one-to-one that many economists seem to believe.

Milt Lauenstin
 
 
+11 # BradFromSalem 2012-07-11 10:41
I think Krugman was conceding the point to make a larger point and that is that the CEO being taxed at a significantly higher rate, say 50% higher, does not work 50% less hard. In fact, the CEO's production rate drop is nowhere near the gains that society accrues by directing that income to public needs.
 
 
+21 # sk8sonh2o 2012-07-11 09:49
First I question the supposed disincentive effect of taxes. If people can work more overtime or sell harder, reason they don't isn't because they are hitting the tax wall. They stop because they are sated or they are too tired or have other priorities. Higher tax rates aren't stopping them. I posit that higher tax rates cause people to produce more because they will work until they get what they want.
Secondly, we as a country can come up with equations that create a smooth income curve. And we can understand them and do our own taxes with them. It's not that hard.
 
 
+13 # DPM 2012-07-11 13:52
No matter how you want to argue this article and your favorite mathematical theory, the fact is, this country is being made poorer, daily, by those who would move our economy back to the Dark Ages. They would have an economy set up with royalty. Kings and princes on top, put there by "God" and their wealth. A lower echelon of the privileged class to watch over the rest of the 99%. You know, the peasantry. You and me. We would be kept there by professional soldiers whose allegiance would be to the "King". I wonder how your grandchildren will like that?
Oust them, now, while we still can. If they are criminals, arrest, prosecute and imprison them. Having money is not a crime. How you got it and how you use it may be.
 
 
+1 # Barbara K 2012-07-11 14:06
I know that I'm way off subject, but I've been hearing all day about the large number of Dems being disenfranchised from voting in the R controlled states. Well, how about the Dem states get into the Voter Registrations and disenfranchised the same number or more of the R voters to even out the number of voters to make the election more even? We cannot stand by and allow the Rs to keep our Dems from voting, and not do the same back to the Rs. After all it is the Rs who have done any voter fraud. What the R states are doing to kick legal Dems off the voter rolls is Voter Fraud in itself. So how about charging them with voter fraud? Meantime, play their game. Fight fire with fire. No time to play nice while they are playing dirty, our future is at stake.
 
 
+5 # ithinktoomuch 2012-07-12 05:57
I can understand where you're coming from, Barbara. But I think most Dem's prefer their party not engage in the kind of dastardly behavior we are seeing on the other side of the aisle. However, if any techie-anarchis t-type Dem sympathizers would like to mess around with a few Diebold machines this November, feel free. The difference between the exit polls and the vote count in the Wisconsin Governor's recall race a few months ago was SEVEN PERCENT!! Rep's are engaging in electronic election fraud on a massive scale wherever there is no paper-trail to expose their manipulation.
 
 
0 # Barbara K 2012-07-13 13:28
ithinktoomuch: I wholeheartedly agree with you. There is definitely voter fraud going on by the Rs tinkering with the voting machines. They fight dirty and are not deserving of any position. If they need to cheat, disenfranchise voters, and steal elections, they don't deserve them. Shows us all we need to know about their lack of character.
 
 
+8 # stonecutter 2012-07-11 14:08
There's probably a small segment of Americans who begrudge Romney his enormous wealth, but most don't. Assuming you believe he made his fortune legally (leaving the moral complexities of "vulture capitalism" aside), he's a logical role model for the American Dream of becoming financially secure, if not super-rich (even if he started way ahead of the rest of us with his silver-spoon upbringing). But how any ordinary wage earner or salaried professional ($40-100k per year), who may or may not receive paid health and retirement benefits, working or middle class, cannot begrudge, let alone be outraged, by his ridiculously venal and unfair "carried interest" rate of 15% is beyond me, beyond rational justification or the best interests of the 99%. And he's the poster boy for continuing this in perpetuity.

It's already been pointed out ad infinitum that during Clinton's two terms, the then 35% upper marginal bracket existed side-by-side with the creation of 23 million jobs and the largest surplus in American budgetary history. To return to this bracket for upper-income Americans represents optimal political compromise,
acknowledgement of essential fairness and justice in a reformed tax system, and a dramatic impact on both government spending priorities and the economic outlook. Add raising the ceiling on social security-taxed income levels, again a matter of fairness, and we're on to recovering our collective conscience as a nation.
 
 
0 # ithinktoomuch 2012-07-12 06:12
Capital gains and carried interest need to not be flat rates anymore. They don't necessarily have to be taxed the same rates as income tax, but they should have tiered tax brackets of their own. That would suck a few more tax dollars out of ol' Rmoney...I mean, Romney.
 
 
+10 # Todd Williams 2012-07-11 15:43
The question I always come back to is why would a lower midddle class person want to vote for a rich man who belongs to a political party that wants to lower wages, cut benefits, increase overtime, gut unions and destroy the new health care act? And these actions would only deepen the economic problems we already face. These people must be totally insane!
 
 
+15 # tabonsell 2012-07-11 16:13
Misplaced my research but I do remember that Wal-Mart and Nike were started in the early 1960s when the top tax rate was 91%. Microsoft and Apple were started in the mid-1970s, when the top tax rate was 70%. Costco and Starbucks were started between those two groups when tax rates were still very high. The only corporations that started after Reagan's tax cutting and deregulating are those who piggy-backed on the Internet, a government creation. So the question remains; why those high tax rates did not discourage the founders from starting their successful corporations? The answer is tax rates have nothing to do with how hard one works or how innovative one is when going into business.

But the wealthy aren't the only ones benefitting from taxes that hit the lower classes the most. The book "Saving America: Using Democratic Capitalism to Rescue the Nation from Economic Folly" (Algora Publishing of New York city) shows how a single mother who cleans houses for a living and has no health insurance or home for herself and children has been subsidizing for decades those who get health insurance on the job and those who deduct interest payments on their million-dollar mortgages.

It's examples like this that call for a whole new taxing system, not just tinkering with the corrupt system now in place that hits those at the bottom hardest and gives a free ride to numerous corporations and mega-rich individuals.
 
 
+2 # ericsongs 2012-07-12 10:19
Quoting tabonsell:

It's examples like this that call for a whole new taxing system, not just tinkering with the corrupt system now in place that hits those at the bottom hardest and gives a free ride to numerous corporations and mega-rich individuals.


Being that, in a just and fair society, those that benefit the most should pay the most; but that does not necessarily require our current convoluted taxation system with varying percentages imposed and loopholes galore.

Proposed: Only 2 types of taxes are to be levied and NO deductions or other types of tax avoidance are to be tolerated at any level by any entity. (corporations are people, my ass!)

Type-I: A 1% Transaction Tax covering all monetary transactions; said tax to be calculated and included by the seller and "built into" the total purchase price prior to the exchange.

For example:
The purchase of a 1 dollar hamburger will cost you 99 cents plus 1 cent Transaction Tax.
The purchase of a 1 million dollar home will cost you 990,000 dollars plus 10,000 dollars Transaction Tax.
The purchase of 1 billion dollars worth of E-Trade transactions from the comfort of your down-filled leather-covered motorized executive throne when you could be accomplishing something worthwhile, will cost you 990,000,000 dollars plus 10,000,000 dollars Transaction Tax.

***This is Part 1 - Part 2 shall follow***
 
 
+3 # ericsongs 2012-07-12 10:22
***This is Part 2 - Part 3 shall follow***

Type-II: A 1% Accumulation Tax covering all accumulated assets; said tax to be calculated on the basis of the original purchase price and to be included on your Asset Disclosure Statement and paid on an annual basis.

For example:
If, for some ungodly reason, you decided to keep that 1 dollar hamburger in a glass display case in your library for posterity, it will cost you 1 cent Accumulation Tax every subsequent year.
If you still own that 1 million dollar home, it will cost you 10,000 dollars Accumulation Tax every subsequent year.
If you still control that 1 billion dollars worth of E-Trade stocks 10,000,000 dollars Accumulation Tax every subsequent year.

Both taxes are to be levied and collected ONLY by the federal government and no other forms of taxation are to be tolerated. Distribution of the collected funds shall be a 50-50 split between the operation of the federal government and the operation of the state governments, because these are indeed "united" states.
 
 
+2 # ericsongs 2012-07-12 10:24
***This is Part 3***

No More multi-billion dollar corporations avoiding their obligation to the citizens of the nation that made them great in the first place. On an individual level, if you want to live in the lap of luxury, then you will contribute according to your level of greed on a yearly basis, based on your hoarding the assets of the creativity and production of the hundreds or thousands of employees that worked to provide you with those items. In exchange for your luxury, you will provide the funds to supply all of our citizens with cradle to grave health-care, education if desired, a reasonable national defense, a sound infrastructure and police and fire safety operations.
(quit yer bitchin', it's only 1% ..... it would take 100 years for the taxed value of the item to double the item's cost)
 
 
+4 # Granny Weatherwax 2012-07-12 07:18
Clearest explanation I have seen so far.
Thank you, Doctor Krugman.
 
 
0 # RobertMStahl 2012-07-14 07:07
One should focus on productivity, screw incentives. Creatures that employed the notion of an opposing thumb, even in hindsight would be able to figure this one out, Gregory Bateson's notion of symmetric and asymmetric contributions, independently 'backed in.'

I worked for an oil company for nine years, EGN on the stock exchange, and fully integrated their digital engineering environment from DOS to Windows through the intranet and into the internet flawlessly, for all practical purposes, over that time, putting them in first place for the mid-sized bracket, but, bringing others along as well. Their stock grew five times from 07/97 to 08/06 when they ousted me, tricking me when, like the Argentinian baby thieves (http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/12325-did-reagan-know-about-baby-thefts)our system attacked me so wickedly, I was left stunned. That is another story, but one item is the art piece destroyed in front of the IMAX theater in Birmingham, AL, a solid, liquid, and gas design in the artist's mind, not working from the day of the Iraq war to today, it won't run the gas portion. 9/11? The CEO of Energen never had any use for my symmetrical evolution within the context of their asymmetrical 'captain' approach. As the true natures were independent, he made more millions than you can spit at, then went on to become CEO of construction of Children's Hospital, another Manson exercise. Anyway, just too much to tell here..
EGN has not grown since...
 

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