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Excerpt: "Mr. Romney's campaign is telling lies: claiming that its numbers add up when they don't, claiming that independent studies support its position when those studies do no such thing."

Portrait, New York Times columnist Paul Krugman, 06/15/09. (photo: Fred R. Conrad/NYT)
Portrait, New York Times columnist Paul Krugman, 06/15/09. (photo: Fred R. Conrad/NYT)


Snow Job on Jobs

By Paul Krugman, The New York Times

19 October 12

 

Mitt Romney talks a lot about jobs. But does he have a plan to create any?

You can defend President Obama's jobs record - recovery from a severe financial crisis is always difficult, and especially so when the opposition party does its best to block every policy initiative you propose. And things have definitely improved over the past year. Still, unemployment remains high after all these years, and a candidate with a real plan to make things better could make a strong case for his election.

But Mr. Romney, it turns out, doesn't have a plan; he's just faking it. In saying that, I don't mean that I disagree with his economic philosophy; I do, but that's a separate point. I mean, instead, that Mr. Romney's campaign is telling lies: claiming that its numbers add up when they don't, claiming that independent studies support its position when those studies do no such thing.

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-77 # MidwestTom 2012-10-19 08:51
No matter who is lying, the job loss last week was the highest in four months, and the 4 week average is growing. Romney was correct when he stated that the economy has been growing slower each year for three years. Our HR group believes that the there is a giant shifting process going on where employers have been able to improve the quality of their workforce from the available market, but over time it is getting harder and harder to find good qualified people, even though the number of unemployed has increased.

In other words in this labor market employers don't have to hire marginal employees.
 
 
+65 # portiz 2012-10-19 09:50
First of all, R'money was a capitalist... and his objective was to make money, not to make jobs (remember: capitalists make money, patriots make jobs). I don't begrudge his desire to make obscene loads of money, but for him to pretend that doing so (and put people out of work in the process) also "created" jobs is simply a lie. In fact, I'm sure the investors in Bain had no interest in helping him create jobs, they wanted ONLY to make money... had he 'mis-used' their investments to create jobs would very quickly have been charged with fraud.

But, more to the point about creating jobs by fostering the growth of small businesses:
One of the most significant obstacles is that the social safety net doesn't work. In particular, if someone were to quit their 9-to-5 job to start a business, not only do they need to risk their own savings, but they also are jeopardizing the welfare of their family by giving up the healthcare benefits. If you want to foster growth of a small business, ensure that health benefits would be continuos regardless of whether the venture succeeds, or not.
 
 
+40 # BradFromSalem 2012-10-19 11:47
Another reason for Single payer.

Nearly every economic and social problem in America can be lessened to some degree by Single payor universal health care. I said nearly? Scratch the word "Nearly".
 
 
+9 # Sweet Pea 2012-10-19 16:51
Is it any wonder that we don't have jobs? We used to have a big manufacturing base with good-paying jobs. Then people started to think "Cheaper is Better" and started buying all of the imported goods. Maybe cheap is better, but it also cost us our jobs. Wake up America - we are destroying our own selves.
 
 
+3 # soularddave 2012-10-20 20:34
You've just described the walmart effect.
 
 
+48 # BradFromSalem 2012-10-19 09:58
Okayy....

So the folks without jobs are a bunch of incompetent nitwits that don't deserve to work? Big news, the job market sucks! Show me one plan the Republicans proposed. ONE.
They stole Congress from the Democrats who had plans, not optimal, but plans that would get some results. The Republicans stole it by lying that they would create jobs. Still no plans! Is that promise the party made in 2010 any different than Romney's promise to add 12 million jobs now? Name one area where Mitt said he would propose legislation that would increase jobs in a particular business sector. ONE.

Undecided Fox watching people will vote for Mitt because they put the Democrats story that Obama was blocked by Republican intransigence as BS. So they believe Mitt because, gosh, he ran a business and made lots of money! I might believe Mitt if he ran a pizza parlor, but he ran a business that made profits by classifying employees, their salaries and benefits as fixed costs to be reduced.

When that happens in the government, you end up choosing where and when to deploy your limited security forces in a mostly friendly nation. And people end up dead.
 
 
+4 # AJJax 2012-10-21 15:29
The Republicans stole (Congress in 2010) by lying that they would create jobs. Still no plans! and still no jobs!!! Boehner, where's my job????
 
 
+30 # tswhiskers 2012-10-19 10:17
I guess Romney's thought is that he's so good at putting companies OUT of business, that he surely would be good at creating and growing them too. Like Krugman I fail to see the logic. I have watched the campaign fairly closely and I have heard nothing concrete from either Romney or Ryan about anything except abortion rights and immigration policy and those views are losing him a majority of the women's vote and the Latino vote. Surely by now anyone can see that R/R have no policies that they dare share with the majority of the public. They can only be honest with Boca Ratonians and others in the uppermost economic spheres.
 
 
-69 # Robt Eagle 2012-10-19 11:00
How is possible that Paul Krugman can print this tripe? The statement by Krugman: "things have definitely improved over the past year" is completely laughable! Where is Krugman getting this crap from, certainly not the unemployed, those on food stamps, and those who have lost their homes. Krugman, put out some factual data to support your BS and earn that most valuable Nobel Prize in Economics (Groucho Marx's quote (paraphrased here) of any club that would have me is not worth joining, is completely applicable to the awards of Nobel to Krugman and, most laughable, to Obama for peace. Please get Krugman off the air as he is just so far to the left his vision is clouded beyond any comprehensible credibility. Paul, go get a real job and produce something for the good of the economy!
 
 
+30 # BradFromSalem 2012-10-19 11:14
RobtEagle,

Show me one plan (Job creation)the Republicans proposed. ONE.

Or how about suggesting some yourself. Its almost November, its about time you start letting people in on the secret!
 
 
-1 # Granny Weatherwax 2012-10-19 15:12
There is one.

Go check romneytaxplan.c om.
 
 
+2 # BradFromSalem 2012-10-19 17:58
People. Its for real the true Romney tax and jobs plan. Please check it out before giving Granny a thumbs down.
 
 
0 # AMLLLLL 2012-10-19 19:31
Granny, my brother in law sent me that one ~
 
 
+12 # reiverpacific 2012-10-19 16:44
Quoting BradFromSalem:
RobtEagle,

Show me one plan (Job creation)the Republicans proposed. ONE.

Or how about suggesting some yourself. Its almost November, its about time you start letting people in on the secret!

Don't waste yer breath; these reactionary types are as short on ideas as they are long on insults and dumbly-repeated rhetoric.
I quit messing with them a long time ago.
 
 
+12 # dkonstruction 2012-10-19 13:23
Quoting Robt Eagle:
How is possible that Paul Krugman can print this tripe? The statement by Krugman: "things have definitely improved over the past year" is completely laughable! Where is Krugman getting this crap from, certainly not the unemployed, those on food stamps, and those who have lost their homes. Krugman, put out some factual data to support your BS and earn that most valuable Nobel Prize in Economics (Groucho Marx's quote (paraphrased here) of any club that would have me is not worth joining, is completely applicable to the awards of Nobel to Krugman and, most laughable, to Obama for peace. Please get Krugman off the air as he is just so far to the left his vision is clouded beyond any comprehensible credibility. Paul, go get a real job and produce something for the good of the economy!


If what you say is correct (and in large part i think it is in so far as Krugman being overly rosy in how he is portraying our progress) this says to me that far from being "so far to the left" he is not even as left as a real Keynsian who would be arguing for a much more massive WPA style jobs program.

The WPS employed millions and the GI bill paid for itself many times over so while your critique of Krugman may be in some ways correct (as far as how much things have improved) but the conclusions you draw are actually the opposite of what needs to be done.
 
 
+29 # mdhome 2012-10-19 11:26
The U.S. economy may not be recovering as fast as President Obama likes, but at least he can make one claim: The stock market has done better under his watch than with any other recent president.

Since Obama's inauguration on Jan. 20 2009, all three major U.S. stock indexes are up more than 60 percent. The Nasdaq Composite alone has soared a whopping 105 percent.

And of course those numbers reflect the recovery from the economic meltdown President Obama inherited, and the Fed also gets some credit, but that meltdown occurred under those supposedly pro-business Republicans.

Even so, the market has performed better during Obama's 43 1/2 months in office than in any of the five prior administrations . In fact, the S&P 500 has outperformed most of the major world indexes during his presidency.
 
 
+36 # portiz 2012-10-19 12:01
The next time someone tells you that Obama is ruining the economy, remind them that the stock market and corporate profits are at all-time highs.

When they reply that this hasn't helped them any, remind them that they've just proven that trickle-down economics doesn't work.

[And that's why R'money (and Reagan) are dead wrong.]
 
 
+3 # dkonstruction 2012-10-19 13:52
Nearly 1/2 (50%) of the country is either in poverty or near poverty (that's 150 million people). We should not be using the stock market as a measure for how well people or the economy as a whole is doing since this is "phantom wealth" as it can be taken away just as easily as it was gotten. given that we have not solved any of the structural economic problems that got us into this mess in the first place (financial deregulation, too big to fail banks way overleveraged, mountains of public and private debt) what makes anyone believe that this is not just the latest asset bubble which like all of the others is not going to come crashing down again. Economic "health" should not be measured by how high the stock market goes.
 
 
+24 # mdhome 2012-10-19 11:29
Mitt Romney was not a businessman; he was a master financial speculator who bought, sold, flipped, and stripped businesses. He did not build enterprises the old-fashioned way — out of inspiration, perspiration, and a long slog in the free market fostering a new product, service, or process of production. Instead, he spent his 15 years raising debt in prodigious amounts on Wall Street so that Bain could purchase the pots and pans and castoffs of corporate America, leverage them to the hilt, gussy them up as reborn “roll-ups,” and then deliver them back to Wall Street for resale — the faster the better.
 
 
+8 # dkonstruction 2012-10-19 13:19
And so this is why we need to be calling for a cut in the work week (with no cut in pay) which has always (until we gave it up after winning the 8 hour day) one of the demands of the working class (it is also a way to ensure that the benefits of increases in productivity also go to the workers instead of all to the bosses as they have done for the past 30-40 years). second, if it is harder and harder to find good qualified people then this is a call for a far greater investment in public education in this country as well as the reeducation of older workers whose jobs are never coming back. finally, the federal gov't needs to be "the employer of last resort" as it was during the great depression. there is no reason why the federal gov't could not offer a job to anyone that does not have one (not to mention eliminating all payroll taxes and providing these funds directly to the states as grants which would immediately solve every state's fiscal problems and allow them to hire more teachers, cops, sanitation workers etc). the federal gov't does not need to rely on "growth" in order to hire people as the GI bill showed investments of that kind pay for themselves many times over.

With so much that needs to be done(from rebuilding our infrastructure to retrofitting every building to be energy efficient to providing shelter for all those that are homeless instead of leaving millions of homes vacant while so many then sleep on the streets) it is criminal not to do it
 
 
-1 # Sweet Pea 2012-10-19 16:55
And could we manufacture goods that would be as cheap as we can import it?
 
 
0 # soularddave 2012-10-20 20:46
"WE" are not importing manufactured goods. "THEY" are, and "WE" are buying those goods and paying "THEM" for transportation, to boot!
 
 
0 # Granny Weatherwax 2012-10-19 15:11
"Your HR group" - could you please elaborate?
 
 
+2 # reiverpacific 2012-10-19 16:31
Quoting MidwestTom:
No matter who is lying, the job loss last week was the highest in four months, and the 4 week average is growing. Romney was correct when he stated that the economy has been growing slower each year for three years. Our HR group believes that the there is a giant shifting process going on where employers have been able to improve the quality of their workforce from the available market, but over time it is getting harder and harder to find good qualified people, even though the number of unemployed has increased.

In other words in this labor market employers don't have to hire marginal employees.

We must ha' been copping different news sources, or be in different time warps. According to the BBC, the Guardian and even the NY Times (12/15/12), the unemployment rate just fell to 7.8% -first time below 8% since 2008, the year Dimwits and his reactionary bosses and handlers left us all except his "Have-Mores-bas e" in the shit so deep that it's been an uphill slog ever since, especially with a congress almost hysterical and cynical about blocking every attempt of Obama's to make a dent in it and damn the county as a whole!
Mind you, I don't believe the published figures as they are always artificially "Adjusted" low but we have to start somewhere.
Oh and BTW, housing starts are up too (source, BBC web page 10/16/2012).
 
 
+27 # BradFromSalem 2012-10-19 09:05
Surprisingly, Romney did gives the details that we need to parse his economic recovery plan as stated during the debate of October 16th, 2012. The former (occasional) governor of "my" state as he was wont to call the Commonwealth of Massachusetts during the aforementioned debate declared that each taxpayer would be provided a bucket into which they could pick and choose which tax breaks they could use to fill the bucket. Of course, as with any Republican plan it does have the usual caveats. First you must qualify for the tax deduction to qualify. Second, this bucket is a maximum. Third, certain tax deductions such as income earned from capital investments do not count toward the deduction. In return for the burden this innovative and job producing plan may put on families or individuals that will have increased medical bills due to the repeal of the ACA this plan will cut your tax rate by 20%! And that's not all! No more taxes on that horribly complicated and burdensome tax on savings account interest. Even more good news! This plan is revenue neutral!
This plan is certain to inspire every pizza shop in town to add pizza bakers, and delivery boys (you know the ladies don't drive too well and have problems reading maps). Even now, company's all over America are writing up help wanted ads in anticipation of the Romney victory!

This offer will expire as soon as Mr. Romney speaks again on his tax plan.
 
 
-60 # jtatu 2012-10-19 09:47
One thing seems rather clear. The Obama plan will add additional barriers to employment.
 
 
+29 # BradFromSalem 2012-10-19 10:01
Name one.
 
 
-26 # jtatu 2012-10-19 12:05
OK. Higher tax rates on individuals earning $250,000 or more.
 
 
+22 # BradFromSalem 2012-10-19 13:05
How will that create a barrier to employment? It seems to me that if your company is making over 250K profit, then in order for the additional taxes (I am talking small businesses that file as individuals) over 250K to add up to a single job is quite high. Especially when one considers that the salary of the new hire will lower your tax liability and that you would only hire someone if they would increase your profits.

Just President Bill said. Its arithmetic.
 
 
-16 # jtatu 2012-10-19 15:53
Yes, it's math and yours doesn't work.
 
 
+6 # BradFromSalem 2012-10-19 18:00
I'm using base 10, how about you?
 
 
-6 # jtatu 2012-10-19 19:25
Me too.
 
 
+8 # dkonstruction 2012-10-19 13:34
Quoting jtatu:
OK. Higher tax rates on individuals earning $250,000 or more.


that was not what Obama was proposing.

The proposal in fact was to increase rates/payments on income above $250,000 i.e., all income up to that would be the same as it currently is and would not be increased.
 
 
-10 # jtatu 2012-10-19 15:54
I said $250,000 OR MORE.
 
 
+10 # robniel 2012-10-19 14:32
No one hires more people unless they make more money by doing so. If the business is so marginal that a few percentage points in higher taxes outweighs the additional revenue of another employee either the business plan is faulty or the businesss is not in a growth mode that would support hiring in the first place.
 
 
-7 # jtatu 2012-10-19 15:54
A few % points?
 
 
+1 # soularddave 2012-10-20 22:56
Okay, that has nothing to do with individuals. You got that wrong. The proposal is to allow the bush tax cuts to expire on *Small Businesses* making more than $250K. That still has noting to do with 97% of the small businesses in the USA.
You make a point, but a very small one at that. It would still only let taxes rise to the level they were under Clinton, and small businesses did very well then.

BTW, if a single payer health care act was implemented, it would more than offset the tax rise by removing health care as an expense to small business.

Think about it. That's where we're going. That's what put the European countries' economies back on track after WWII.
 
 
-50 # jtatu 2012-10-19 09:48
Not to mention the uncertainty facing business because of the upcoming Taxmageddon.
 
 
+41 # karlarove 2012-10-19 10:05
Comments like this demonstrate how uneducated Americans really are. Corporate profits have accounted for 67.8 percent of all economic growth since 2008.
The three lowest years for corporate taxes since World War II – 2009, 2010, 2011. "Hiring in the U.S. Still Trails Corporate-Profi t Gains" -this is from a WSJ article. Corporations are doing really well. Their rhetorically 35% tax rate is just a talking point. 2-10% is quite the norm.
 
 
-30 # jtatu 2012-10-19 12:14
So what? It is small business in this country that is going to bring back jobs. Most small businesses are taxed at the individual rates. Raise individual rates and kill more jobs. I'm not talking about the corporate tax rate which even Obama thinks should be lowered.
 
 
+20 # karlarove 2012-10-19 13:20
I have to ask - do you own a small business? Have you talked to someone that does? I do, and I ask questions because I KNOW the media writes articles that support their views (propaganda)and people who are willful ignorant go along with it. every one of them has said "Yes, thanks to President Obama my business is thriving". Of the 4.5 million private sector jobs created since Obama took office, about 2.6 million -- or 60 percent -- were created by small businesses. An open mind is extremely useful.
 
 
-9 # jtatu 2012-10-19 15:23
His proposed tax hike hasn't happened yet. And, yes, I know and talk to a lot of small business owners and they agree with be as does The Heritage Foundation and various other think tanks. If you are an average "small business" your sales are $2,000,000 and your profit ranges from +14% to 30% unless you are in the food (restaurant) business.
 
 
-7 # jtatu 2012-10-19 15:29
The tax hikes haven't been implemented yet.
 
 
-6 # jtatu 2012-10-19 16:00
The tax increase hasn't happened yet. I know lots of people who have a small business and they agree with me.
 
 
+5 # reiverpacific 2012-10-19 18:50
Quoting jtatu:
The tax increase hasn't happened yet. I know lots of people who have a small business and they agree with me.

I have a small business and you are full of shit.
In fact what remains of my two business consolidated now, which were practically demolished under Dimwits and the crash, has just had it's best few months since 2007 when I had to consolidate.
Keep up the barrage of nonsense; you might even convince yourself eventually!
I want a President, not a boss as someone recently stated, especially a ruthless bully.
You might consider China, where Twit is in the process of moving a successful American company held by Bain Capital, and putting a good proportion of Freeport, Illinois out of work.
Fancy more of that do ya?
 
 
+8 # dkonstruction 2012-10-19 13:37
Quoting jtatu:
So what? It is small business in this country that is going to bring back jobs. Most small businesses are taxed at the individual rates. Raise individual rates and kill more jobs. I'm not talking about the corporate tax rate which even Obama thinks should be lowered.


a very small percentage of "small businesses" have profits above $250,000 (even small businesses get to deduct expenses so it is not a tax on all income before deducting expenses it is a tax on profits) and here too the proposal was to only increase payments on profits above $250,000 while leaving the rate the same for all profits up to that.
 
 
-12 # jtatu 2012-10-19 15:17
I don't know where your information is coming from. Acording to my information the average profit of a small business in most business sectors comfortably exceeds $250,000.
 
 
+1 # soularddave 2012-10-20 23:08
ABC News quoted the Congressional Budget Office figures. Try a Google search to find something that qualifies YOUR numbers.

I begin to believe you're making your numbers up.
 
 
-5 # jtatu 2012-10-19 15:58
The AVERAGE small business in this country has sales of $2,000,000 and a profit of +14% to 55% except for food processing.
 
 
+9 # BradFromSalem 2012-10-19 18:04
That is because many hedge fund managers and other money manipulators qualify as a small business. Try quoting the MEDIAN instead of the average.

As President Bill said. It Arithmetic.
 
 
0 # reiverpacific 2012-10-20 10:36
Quoting jtatu:
The AVERAGE small business in this country has sales of $2,000,000 and a profit of +14% to 55% except for food processing.

Define "Small business".
 
 
+10 # BradFromSalem 2012-10-19 14:29
It amazes me that you are repeatedly commenting on the same point after getting slammed by multiple commentators. Each one has supplied a narrative to explain why you are wrong. Are you secretly Romney?

Try another tack, please.
 
 
-9 # jtatu 2012-10-19 15:18
I respectfully disagree with your analysis. See comment above.
 
 
-7 # jtatu 2012-10-19 16:01
See above comments. I don't feel slammed.
 
 
0 # soularddave 2012-10-20 23:01
Quoting jtatu:
So what? It is small business in this country that is going to bring back jobs.


Yes, and 97% of those small businesses won't be affected.
 
 
+26 # BlueReview 2012-10-19 11:07
It's a myth that cutting taxes for the rich creates jobs, or revenue.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1692027,00.html

World News Vine in 2010 said, "What has the Bush Era Tax Cuts done for the average American? For an example, someone living in poverty, that is less than $10,000 per year, received an extra 20 cents that is correct 20 cents per day under the plan. The millionaire received $407 dollars a day . . . Just to throw the angle of reality into the fray, the average American earning $50,000 per year received $4.30 per working day based on a work year of 2080 hours. During the Bush heyday, that was not even enough to purchase a gallon of unleaded gas."
http://worldnewsvine.com/2010/12/bush-tax-cuts-vs-unemployment-extensions-the-great-republican-lie/
 
 
+31 # Billy Bob 2012-10-19 09:34
What is it about romney and lying? Do any of you see a pattern here?

NOTE: understatement
 
 
+8 # BlueReview 2012-10-19 10:47
Yes.
 
 
+40 # fredboy 2012-10-19 09:49
As America now leans toward Romney and his Igor, Ryan, I begin to chuckle at how often the American people kick their own asses. I recall dining with a group of Vanderbilt U. professors in Nashville after the year 2000 election theft. Al Gore would have put Tennessee, Nashville, and Vanderbilt U. on the map and brought them a billion dollars in PR--but all the profs bragged about voting for Bush! I warned them that a terrorist attack was coming, war was coming, and economic failure was coming as a result, and they all laughed at me. Frigging amazing.
 
 
+23 # Tje_Chiwara 2012-10-19 09:53
TRICKLE DOWN does not work to create jobs . . . Well proven during Reagan and Bush years . . . Uncertainty has been the greatest factor to keep Business holding on to their cash, and Insurance companies and oil companies holding their fire, despite their excellent earnings. Maybe they can avoid investing in clean technologies and maybe they will have to Wait and see.

So WHO has caused all this uncertainty? Obama has proposed and proposed and proposed, without any real response from the nay-sayers who have nurtured uncertainty as their only strategy --- it has been effective. And even now, no one knows if they will be so irrational as to drive us off the cliff. Who would invest with that hanging over your head?

Only if Obama is reelected will this uncertainty be diminished. They can't really run against another Obmama term -- what else can they do? I believe the only chance they will see will be to move to the rational. Compromise on protecting wealth -- compromise on letting the courts decide where religion intersects with personal freedom, rather than hoping to legislate their anti-female views. And then some more progress may take place. Not as quickly as the old days, when you could engage in civil conversations, but one in which the interests of the entire United States, not just the "successful" and morally superior, are give a voice.
 
 
+12 # Marjory Munson 2012-10-19 10:08
Maybe some of the jobs Romney shipped overseas while at Bain had strings attached so that he can pull them back (temporarily) if elected.
 
 
+7 # Granny Weatherwax 2012-10-19 15:16
That's the plan: allow mega corps and billionaires to make profit overseas and then repatriate the gains without taxing them.

That's precisely the plan.
 
 
+11 # dkonstruction 2012-10-19 10:17
Krugman is right that Romney has no real jobs plan but he is wrong to say Obama's job record can be defended.

I have no illusions that the rethugs would ever vote to support a Green New Deal type program but that is what is needed in this country. That would be a real jobs plan.

Our national infrastruture is collapsing and no one other than the federal gov't has the resources to rebuild it. You want "energy independence" how about a program that made every building/house i the country energy efficient. These two alone would employ tens of millions of people. That would be a real jobs program.

Unfortunately, the "new democrats" adopted the very same "free market" economics that the republicans have been pushing for decade.

I'm not saying that it would be easy to get such a program through and it would require building a real political movement but this is what needs to be done.

Instead of simply extending unemployment benefits the federal gov't could offer anyone a job that needs one (including the job training they need) to rebuild our infrastructure, build a green economy, teach our kids, etc. Economists have shown how the GI bill paid for itself 7 times over because of they types of things they were investing in (college and mortgages for vets, etc).

So, yes Romney is horrible (and needs to be defeated) but that doesn't mean we need to defend Obama's record on this either.
 
 
+9 # BradFromSalem 2012-10-19 11:22
dk,

I agree with your assessment that real public investment in transforming the US into a well educated modern, green country won't fly with voters.

Optimistically, the fact that Obama is not stating exactly what he will do in a second term plus the fact that he ahs stated a preference for all the items you note, makes me (want to?) believe that he may go left if he wins.

Remember, Romney and the Republicans really truly believe that piss on the people economics works.
 
 
+7 # dkonstruction 2012-10-19 12:27
I actually think that (with alot of hard work and a large enough social movement pressuring for it) that we could get a "green new deal" type program through. i have no illusions about how hard this would be but if progressives agree that this is the battle well then we at least need to wage it.

The GI bill was very popular. so were the New Deal programs (which is not to say that they didn't have fierce political opposition because they did).

One of the problems i think is that the dems don't know how to talk about and confront the race issue. when affirmative action programs were "white" the white working class supported them enthusiasticall y. But, today, when these programs have been presented (falsely) as mainly benefitting "minorities" the repubs and conservative dems have been very effective at turning the white working class against them.

The challenge is how to build a mult-racial working/middle class coaliton. to do this though we need to be able to have a much more open and honest discussion about race and class (including the "fears" of the white working class that has seen its standard of living erode over the last 40 years and confronting those that continue to exploit these fears such that these folks now blame blacks, immigrants, the poor, "welfare queens" etc as being the ones who are responsible). Not an easy task I grant you but we have to start somewhere.
 
 
+3 # BradFromSalem 2012-10-19 13:12
Great observation bringing race as part of the barrier to Progressive movements.

Remember the firestorm that Holder started when he said we need to have more open and frank discussions about race? And he is nowhere near as radical as that Van Jones guy (sic).
 
 
+8 # dkonstruction 2012-10-19 13:42
Quoting BradFromSalem:
Great observation bringing race as part of the barrier to Progressive movements.

Remember the firestorm that Holder started when he said we need to have more open and frank discussions about race? And he is nowhere near as radical as that Van Jones guy (sic).


Yeah, sadly white progressives still have a real hard time knowing how to openly and honestly talk about this one. but it's not just "us" as I think Obama too has had a really hard time dealing with this one (though i understand the tight rope he needs to walk here)...e.g., i thought his "beer summit" with the cop that arrested Henry Gates in his own home was a travesty...also his handling of the shirley sharrod case...think in some ways he's been better on the trevon martin case but overall i don't think he has found a way to talk about this (which is a shame because since he is bi-racial in some ways he is the perfect person to initiate such a conversation).

Since race has always been used in this country to divide the black and white working class (and its been pretty successful unfortunately) its something i think the progressive/rad ical whatever movement has to be much better at being able to raise this one.
 
 
0 # Granny Weatherwax 2012-10-19 15:18
Let's see: Lincoln, Garfield, Kennedy...

I would understand if he were not to kick the anthill.
 
 
+2 # Regina 2012-10-19 17:06
Obama has at least outlined what he would like to do. He can't say that he "will" do it -- first we have to elect a Congress that's willing to work, not sit on its rear ends, sulking, dissing the Pres, and dreaming up crap against women to give a superficial aura of working for their lush salaries and benefits.
 
 
+7 # BlueReview 2012-10-19 10:41
Paul Krugman writes, “. . . the true Romney plan is to create an economic boom through the sheer power of Mr. Romney’s personal awesomeness. But the campaign doesn’t dare say that, for fear that voters would (rightly) consider it ridiculous.”

Actually, Romney has said that—just not to the voters. In the video where he made his “47%” remarks, he also said, “. . . my own view is, if we win on November 6th there will be a great deal of optimism about the future of this country. We'll see capital come back, and we'll see—without actually doing anything—we'll actually get a boost in the economy.”
 
 
+14 # DakotaKid 2012-10-19 10:46
Unfortunately, the vast majority of voters who will decide this election don't read RSN or anything else that deals in facts rather than lies, in decency rather than deception.
 
 
+12 # Vardoz 2012-10-19 10:53
Ross Perot said when NAFTA was created there would be a big woshing sound as all the jobs left America.
I was just watching CPAITALISM A LOVE STORY again and you should too just to refresh your memory about how screwed we all are by the banks, wall st, the corporations and those reps who we vote for that don't work for us. We are being screwed in every way by the powerful and rich. If we don't get our sht together we the people are done for. We can kiss the middle class and the "American Dream" good-bye.
 
 
+12 # Gere 2012-10-19 11:02
Romney will continue to destroy our country but Obama may (unlike Romney) suddenly wake up to realize he could do what he promised. As for the money it costs, nothing comes close to the rapid destruction and enormous expense we are seeing as a result of climate change. I believe that if the cost of fossil fuels is adjusted to what they really cost us, you have no idea what benefits will roll out for all of us now and into the future by developing alternatives that are less expensive. Even if we can’t fix climate change in time because it takes a world wide effort, the disaster and suffering and deaths will be much worse if we continue to depend on the people behind Romney who continue to lead us over the cliff.
 
 
+12 # wleming 2012-10-19 11:09
romney will do anything to get elected... those tactics are the harbinger of what he will do IF elected. its dire folks... hes no joke-and if he wins... you're the punch line.
 
 
+12 # Dangoodbar 2012-10-19 11:29
What really bothers me about Romney is how SIMPLE you must be to accept his reasoning on not providing details about his entire economic and tax plan. His reason for not providing details is that providing details is mutually exclusive from flexibility.

NO IT IS NOT.

It particularly bothers me as a business person because in business providing details and being flexible go hand in hand. Providing details allows you to say here is my idea but if other honorable people have other and perhaps even better ideas, I am happy to listen. I mean I just finished a presentation where I gave a detailed layout to a CEO and then made changes to my recommendations based on comments from him and others in the room.

The illogical excuse that Romney can't provide details really bothers me as a thinking person. And as a business lawyer and CPA, it is even worse because providing details while being flexible is exactly my job and that of any business person which Romney claims to be as the basis for his entire campaign.
 
 
+10 # BradFromSalem 2012-10-19 12:16
You saw his Debate performances. Does he seem to be the type of guy that listens to others? I am sure in your profession you must have met a few like him. He wants to hold all the cards very close so that only when he decides exactly what to do, he will reveal his plan.
Once revealed, only trivial, cosmetic changes are allowed.
 
 
+12 # Dangoodbar 2012-10-19 12:52
Brad,

I think the problem is his plan really does not add up and he has nothing to reveal.
 
 
+10 # BradFromSalem 2012-10-19 13:13
Either way, if he wins we are screwed.
 
 
+9 # wrknight 2012-10-19 13:05
Romney & Co. really do have a plan, they are just not willing to share it. It's much like the Bain business model.

What Romney & Co. are relying on is winning and having a Republican Congress that will sign up to anything he wants. That way, he can cut taxes for the rich, destroy social security, medicare and medicaid, borrow the money to pay for the tax cuts (thus saddling the public with even more debt), and then ride off into the sunset when he's done, leaving the rest of us with the dregs. Isn't that what he did at Bain?

Remember the old adage, "a leopard doesn't change its spots".
 
 
+8 # Dangoodbar 2012-10-19 13:36
I want to discuss rewarding children for bad behaivor like tantrums, which is exactly Romney's and Repug arguements that Romney should be elected because Dems work better with a Repug president than Repugs do with a Dem president.

It was also exactly George W Bush's argument in 2000. That is after impeaching Clinton because he was a Dem, Bush and Repugs claimed that electing a Repug would "change the tone."

While looked what happened. Dems did work better with Bush than Repugs did with Clinton and 911 happened, surpluss was turned to the greatest defeicts ever, America was lied into war, New Orleans was destroyed as money for levee maintenance and repair was given to millionaires who also got tax cuts for moving jobs offshore, regulation was either repealed or not enforced allowing for everything from pollution to preditory home leanding resulting in an economic collapse.

Rewarding a child who should not get their way for whatever reason by giving them there way is bad parenting and even worse governing. I mean we have already seen what happens when we make a spoiled child president and now Romney wants us to do it again for the same reasons: Repugs are throwing tantrums and not letting America move forward.

Who really thinks by giving spoiled Repugs and Romeny their way and making them president, America will be better off.
 
 
+5 # reiverpacific 2012-10-19 16:36
The Twit jobs plan: "See me after the election"!
 
 
+1 # brux 2012-10-19 21:58
Does either party or any politician have a clue as to what will fix this country, or how to lead this country forward?

I doubt it, and the magnitude of the necessary changes are large enough so that nothing can get through the government fences of the very rich who created government exactly to keep all of us out and just take advantage of the tendency for people to get distracted by everyday life, especially the harsher it is.

The only people who support this system are those are wired into it monetarily and feel like they are benefitting from it and those that are scared to lose what we already have.

I can understand everyone's feelings from every side, but we are fighting in a burning building so to speak.

Actually it is we who are fighting, but the ones in the burning building are our future selves or our children and descendants.

The fact that none of us ... "us", being any subset of a political majority knows what the truth is or can predict the future, and most of the people managing the information that gets to us distort it in some way.

And by the way, what is "we"?
 
 
0 # reiverpacific 2012-10-20 13:17
Quoting brux:
Does either party or any politician have a clue as to what will fix this country, or how to lead this country forward?

I doubt it, and the magnitude of the necessary changes are large enough so that nothing can get through the government fences of the very rich who created government exactly to keep all of us out and just take advantage of the tendency for people to get distracted by everyday life, especially the harsher it is.

The only people who support this system are those are wired into it monetarily and feel like they are benefitting from it and those that are scared to lose what we already have.

I can understand everyone's feelings from every side, but we are fighting in a burning building so to speak.

Actually it is we who are fighting, but the ones in the burning building are our future selves or our children and descendants.

The fact that none of us ... "us", being any subset of a political majority knows what the truth is or can predict the future, and most of the people managing the information that gets to us distort it in some way.

And by the way, what is "we"?

"We" -a good question in these fragmented states, where much of the proletariat (or working people and their dependents) is persuaded by constant barrages of negative propaganda and lying by the plutocrats and their Super-PACs.
Hell I could go on at some length on this as I'm sure most of us could.
In short, almost anybody but Twit!
 

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