A small glimpse of the more than 250,000 secret diplomatic cables released by WikiLeaks discloses that Arab leaders are privately urging an air strike on Iran, and that US officials have been instructed to spy on the UN's leadership.
President Bashar al-Assad of Syria, left, with William J. Burns, a State Department official, in Damascus. (photo: Louai Beshara/AFP/Getty)
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"WikiLeaks has published a secret U.S. diplomatic cable listing places the United States considers vital to its national security"
Do you think maybe there should be a Veil of Secrecy for some things? Maybe you live close to some of these places?
Can there be any doubt that Assange's motives have mostly to do with causing the USA as much harm as possible?
I see a Nobel for Julian Assange followed by an arrest. Hope the prize is awarded in Oslo and not Stockholm!
I'd LOVE to know the truth about North Korea's decision to threaten the Civilized World, or why Iran keeps balking on nuclear negotiation, let alone funding HAMAS? And what is China's real agenda?
Sometimes it's important to read the article.
Saudi royal family wants Iran out of the picture because they are creating instability in the region, and Saudi Arabia is making OBSCENE money off the status quo!
As to no one having access to info on North Korea or China, doesn't that just mean that we have traitors in OUR ranks, and they don't? Solidarity In Lies, or Honor Among Thieves, to use the old cliches?
The cables say that American diplomats BELIEVE Iran is holding out on them (and our strategy for "Getting To Yes", or at least as close as possible given such a cagey enemy), that one diplomat has "suspicions" of corruption in Afghanistan Government, and suspiciously close relations between the Russian Mafia, the Russian Government, and the Italian Government, and criticisms of the UK's failure to secure the perimeter, which MIGHT be responsible for the high death-toll!
But these are only ACCUSATIONS! Just because that person's a diplomat does not automatically make the accusations true, does it? I thought there were a couple articles--and even a poster HERE--against accusations without proof being taken as Gospel?
I've long thought that America was fighting harder, not smarter, for whatever reason, profit or politics, rather than fighting to WIN, but just because I SAY it, doesn't make it automatically true, does it? I have computer simulations to back up what I say, though, the diplomats don't! These aren't FACTS, they're OPINIONS, or unproven hypotheses at best!
I think WikiLeaks and the traitors who leaked this info were simply seeking to aggrandize themselves, no thought to the consequences... Because the consequences weren't for THEM, the consequences would be felt by OTHERS!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/nov/29/wikileaks-north-korea-china-south-reunification
But really, all WikiLeaks "revealed" is shit-stirring gossip, more suited to the water-cooler than the Internet!
Wow, Saudi Arabia is scared of a possible nuclear-armed neighbor? Afghanistan's leader is pocketing our money? Russia's overrun with the Russian Mafia? None of this is really news, but the fact that American diplomats would make such un-diplomatic statements is going to haunt us for years to come...They expect a certain level of professionalism , and because WikiLeaks didn't reveal the enemies being unprofessional, it must be just OUR side!
I agree and thank god for the courage of these HEROS !
I had all the turkey I wanted last Thursday, turkey! The people releasing this information ARE heroes. The kind of activity described in these communications would be considered serious breaches of the law had they been committed by corporate officers, for example. Why should they be condoned for diplomats? We purportedly live in an open society - a democracy. It is high time ALL the activities of ALL government workers be open and transparent. The evidence provided in this leak should be used to promote legislation that mandates that and provides serious punishment for those government officials promoting these disgusting activities.
We DO live in a dangerous world. That's why it's important to act like an adult, which means QUESTIONING official words from our government when it has a LONG HISTORY of lying to us - not to protect us, but to prevent us from retaliating when it acts undemocraticall y and against our own best interests. If you honestly think every government secret, or even most of them for that matter, are kept from us for "security" reasons, when often these facts are WELL KNOWN REALITIES to whomever we happen to be colonizing at the moment, then I have some ocean front property in Nebraska I'd like to interest you in.
cont.
There is a great difference between "QUESTIONING," official words from the government, which I of course agree with, and publishing private, candid conversations, which should be respected.
Openness in its place is fine, but would you, for example, really want everybody you meet and interact with to be able to read your mind? Not saying you don't have a fine mind.
Apparently you aren't aware that our government HAS IN FACT ALREADY been wiretapping EVERY SINGLE phone call in this country and email for the past several years. Additionally, if the government accuses you of a crime you no longer have the right to a "private candid conversation" with your lawyer. What about my 4th Amendment rights? Are they currently being "respected"?
So, know I don't like the government snooping into my private affairs.
There's a MAJOR difference though:
I'm a PRIVATE CITIZEN. I DON'T WORK FOR THE GOVERNMENT.
The government is run by PUBLIC OFFICIALS. THEY DO WORK FOR ALL OF US.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5187738
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:9Ho1-0dV5yoJ:globalpoliticalawakening.blogspot.com/2010/11/fbi-wiretapping-of-internet-users-all.html+wiretapping+progressive+charity+OR+political&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=safari
http://motherjones.com/mojo/2010/03/judge-warrantless-wiretaps-were-illegal
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5187738
http://www.pcworld.com/article/206505/government_wiretapping_coming_soon_to_a_computer_near_you.html
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/government_programs/july-dec10/wiretap_09-27.html
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-10-nsa_x.htm
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2008/07/10/2008-07-10_bush_signs_new_rules_on_government_wiret.htm
l
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/23/AR2007082302056.html
"The USA Today story says these domestic efforts did not actually listen in on such phone calls; instead, they analyzed traffic patterns."
Makes sense to me. We are in a war, after all.
Do you agree that the government has been involved in warrantless wiretapping? A federal judge not only says they "were", but said that it was illegal. Do you recall that bush jr. gave telecoms "immunity" from future prosecution for this? What did they need "immunity" from if they were only up to "catchin' bad guys"? I have a feeling the warrantless wiretapping isn’t entirely in the past either.
I guess the difference between you and me is that you live in a world where the government is only involved in taking care of all of us (its children). I, on the other hand, live in a world where the government has time and time again proven to me that they don't deserve my blind trust and needs to be kept in check - “under serveillance” if you will.
Once again, comparing Keith Olbermann to our government is a disingenuous argument. Keith Olbermann, whether you like him or not, is a private citizen.
cont.
I'm not arguing that the state has no right to secrets that truly ARE for the purpose of national security. I'm arguing that VERY FEW of the secrets they keep actually serve that purpose.
In fact, it seems that you've already given up on the "national security" get-out-of-jail -free card in this discussion. You've resorted to the idea that we should feel ashamed of the fact that inappropriate activity that was, in fact, dangerous to our national security, was caught and made public by someone.
As someone else already noted, a CEO that was engaged in activities similar to those outed by wikileaks would be punished by the board of directors or even the law, without regard to how the information was leaked.
cont.
Apparently, the info leaked was leaked by willing whistleblowers who felt that their superiors were engaging in criminal or at least inappropriate behavior - behavior which may not be in the best interests of this country. Whistleblowers always take a great risk of retaliation. This isn’t just a game to embarrass someone. This is serious business. They knew the risk, but chose to go ahead and do it anyway. If what they release turns out to be, NOT about national security, but rather, as seems to be the ACTUAL case, about securing the reputations of a few high-ranking individuals who’d rather not be held accountable, then I’d say, whether or not this was a crime, it may help to inform the citizens of this country in a way that is becoming necessary.
cont.
By the way, if someone is engaged in hurting our country, I agree that it may be necessary to bring some of that individual’s behavior into the light of day. You seem to agree with me on that point. The difference, is that you believe it’s ok for the government to eavesdrop on American citizens fishing for that information in case it’s out there somewhere. You don’t seem to think it’s ok for citizens to find out the truth about members of our own government also engaged in activities which are against our collective interests. When the government engages in warrantless fishing expeditions, it is looking for something that it doesn’t already know is there. When a whistleblower speaks up, he/she is speaking up about activities which ARE WELL KNOWN, although not to the public as a whole.
Is that why you brought up the comment about which “ox was being gored”?
cont.
If they had revealed some actual crimes, some PROOF that Afghanistan was wasting our money, or better yet, that America's Government KNEW where a terrorist leader was, but didn't send a team to take him out, or that we were INTENTIONALLY holding back in the war against terrorists as McCrystal said, exposing THAT would be heroic!
Instead, the whistleblower(s ) breached national law to expose...a bunch of tabloid garbage!
Worse, though, it makes Americans look like untrustworthy gossips, and other countries are already getting all sanctimonious about it.
In sum: Breaking the law to expose REAL CRIMES would be heroic. As is, all he's done is smear AMERICA, without smearing other countries equally!
Speaking of being "sanctimonious" , what do you think of someone who makes variations on the exact same comment several times without reading the article?
The documents are written by our diplomats. Our diplomats ACCUSED enemy government members of this, that, and the other. Knowing that we think that of them, even if it's true--no, ESPECIALLY if it's true--will make them even LESS forthcoming in future negotiations!
BUT it only exposed what we THINK of them, without any proof, say, THEIR documents that tell what they think of us, and/or PROVE our diplomats' accusations/"observations"!
What we have here is a real-life version of the first part of "Harriet The Spy": A thief has revealed our "diary", what we THINK of all the other countries, but hasn't disseminated THEIR diaries to prove or disprove it, or even "just" to see what they think of us!
They may be upset that our diplomats were encouraged to gather info, but haven't theirs been doing the same? They just haven't had a traitor reveal that they were officially ORDERED to!
As to this proving how we "exploit" lesser countries, they must be using a different definition of "exploit". Saudi Arabia got filthy rich off our "exploitation"!
In some comments you compare disclosing these embarrassing truths to handing hitler the plans for D-Day. These must be INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT STATE SECRETS for that to be true.
Here, however, you claim that, "None of the activities they 'brought to light' were against America's interests...May be a few 'undiplomatic' comments, but who hasn't made some of those?" - If that's the case, then why should anyone be angry? Afterall, we aren't really talking about crimes being committed. We're just talking about a few innocent remarks, right?
I know how to diffuse the situation, right now: We'll just say, "oops! It was just a few comments. EVERYBODY ELSE WAS DOING IT!"
Next, we'll send the American diplomats to their rooms without supper. After that, we'll call the mothers of the other countries involved and make sure they're grounded as well. If they promise to apologize (and clean their room), maybe we can still let them go to the prom.
Problem solved.
1.) "OMG! The ambassadors of America have discovered our evil plans! We'd better give them up and go straight!"
2.) "What are YOU gonna do about it, America?"
Hint: How have countries responded so far to America's rules and punishments?
Watch "Wizard of Oz" sometime, when the Cowardly Lion challenges Dorothy&co to "Put Up Your Dukes", then gets a half-hearted punch, he whines, "You didn't have to HIT me!"
What did he really expect? But then, Third World countries are pulling the same shit on America, and getting away with it, making America EARN the reputation of being an Easy Mark!
Japan, however, tried to mimic a Monty Python skit, attacking America, then when we lopped off a few of their unnecessary limbs, they wanted to call it a draw!
A DRAW is if we were equals, and would not teach them any lessons. They needed to learn that they had LOST, which is what the nukes were used for.
I don't think any President since has had the steel to be unpopular in order to punish a troublemaker country.
Everytime we try, the lesser countries complain about being "oppressed" and/or that "Violence Inherent In The System"...not verbatim, but the Monty Python concepts are still there!
Do they REALLY expect us to only fight when it's convenient for THEM?
No, WE don't hate America. WE LOVE IT SO much we want to make sure it's represented by a government that can stand the light of day.
The fact is that YOU HATE AMERICA if you deny the right of its citizens to hold THEIR GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABLE.
PLAYING THE "PATRIOTISM" CARD WON'T SHUT DOWN THIS DEBATE.
NICE TRY.
What are your thoughts if these leaks end up with people who have befriended us getting killed?
By the way, "with all due respect"? Don't insult our intelligence.
Our republic can ONLY survive when it's citizens do this !
i hope mr assange has a safe place where he can hide out. the things they tried before to get at him didn't succeed. you gotta wonder what they'll try next
Views about the ineptness or autocratic nature of various Heads of State is ho-hum news.
Is there anyone who is literate with half a brain who is so naive as to be genuinely shocked by the stuff revealed? Get a Life!
If TV stations and ISPs are allowed to disclaim content, why not Governments?
Therefore, either sender or receiver of these wires had to be in on the sudden dissemination of this info.
I would expect your response if they had put it on a terminal in a corner somewhere with a connection to the Internet and no firewall, but not PRIVATE communications!
I forget, does E-Mail carry a "Reasonable Expectation Of Privacy"?
Now, if only there were an equivalent "Politioleak" about how the mega rich buy US congressional representatives , lawmakers, judges,and news commentators.
Roger that!!
By the way, how's that superpower thingy going for you?
The USA is actually a representative republic - elect representatives to vote & voice opinion of constituents. Great Britain is a parliamentary monarchy, and Israel & Iran are parliamentary theocracies.
Once computer security is assured we could become a true democracy with the people voting on every bill with elected Congressional representatives acting as spokesman & negotiator for their constituents.
I work as a computer-repair man, and most the attacks now are not REAL virii, or even worms, but "social engineering"--t ricks to falsely entice someone to click on a link and infect THEMSELVES!
Hey, maybe a "heroic" journalist would reveal how everyone voted! Then we could see if people still thought loss of privacy in an offline system was funny or not!
But than, the world is too civilized to do that even to war criminals like GWBush, Dickie boy Cheney, Herr Karl Rove, and even Condi Rice.
Quoting Annette Smith:
I think you are right. That seems to be the kind of mindset we are dealing with. Kind of a reverse Dr. Strangelove maybe?
Or do you truly believe that all other countries EXCEPT America approach the negotiating table with good intentions and bargain in good faith?
If so, why did North Korea accept food from America in exchange for NOT developing a nuke--then turn around and develop a nuke anyways?
Did everyone in North Korea have their fingers crossed during that "deal"?
I think the problem isn't that America got outed, it's that ONLY America got outed, which is making other countries smug and sanctimonious, even though their countries do the same or worse!
People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, even if THEIR "glass" hasn't turned "transparent" yet!
A plutocracy or a tyranny is just the opposite.
When we complain that we don't want the government groping us or looking at our nude bodies in public we are asked why we care, "if we have nothing to hide".
Now, the shoe is on the other foot. The problem is that the very government that is seeking new ways to humiliate and intimidate its own electorate, doesn't want the very people who "elect" it to know what it's up to.
Why should it care what wikileaks is posting, "if it has nothing to hide"?
Sure, Billy, that would be nice in dreamland.
Nice to read the Arab leaders are antsy over Iran's nuclear ambitions. Will Cairo and Riyahd be targets now? What about some executive action against Saudis backing "terrorist" organizations? As Reagan once said, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter so expect Saudi supporters to contribute, just as they have done for DECADES.
The song remains the same. All we now know is some words for the chorus that we didn't know for sure before.
And what do you want to bet that Iran, North Korea, and the other countries with nuclear ambitions would have some variant of, "All we have to do is keep the Americans busy until we have the power to threaten them...Nukes will deter any punishment!"?
Besides, most people working for our governments and embassies are so accustomed to the daily cloak and dagger number, thus are cynical, so I wonder why there is such a fuss. I doubt whether any proof of harm to individuals or countries will ever emerge. It's just the same old tired plot that thinks we can't cope with truth.
step 2. make comments based on the ARTICLE ITSELF rather than guesses about what might be contained in it.
That WOULD, technically, be "Ending The War", but it would be picking the winner!
They cannot or will not draw any causal relationship between what they did and what happened to them.
Take the firebombing of Dresden. German factories were pumping out munitions, tanks, and even airplanes. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were War Factory towns also, legitimate military targets. The people who worked there may have been TECHNICALLY "civilians", but if they thought those were being used for peaceful purposes, they were in far greater denial than Americans, then or now!
2)It is the business of the press to ferret out secrets, and that of our government and military to keep them from doing so. This adversary relationship usually works well, and is necessary to retain freedom of the press.
contaminating other planets and risking pollution of the entire universe. Therefore, by copy of this posted comment, I urge our outer-space superiors to protect the health of the universe by keeping us earthlings confined to here on Earth until we inevitably cause ourselves to become extinct. Trust me, the way things are currently going, extinction won't take long.
Mother Nature will indeed have the last laugh!
Read this month's National Geographic. Disgusting pictures, but I think sometimes people NEED to be disgusted to remind them why something is bad. A girl in Afghanistan got her nose chopped off for disobeying her husband, and another one got locked in a room because she refused to accept her 70-year-old husband...She was TWELVE!
Why aren't THOSE abuses being brushed across the Internet?
Or why hasn't he put up truths about terrorist leaders that might save American lives?
Instead, we get tabloid garbage: One diplomat notices that Iran keeps stalling, another points out that Afghanistan is corrupt, and still another points out that Russia is in the pocket of their own Mafia? What's "heroic" about any of that?
The cultural vein of misogyny in Afghanistan is reinforced by the similar domination ethos that our military brings to that country. Patriarchal control of women globally has many faces, and our own patriarchal policies in this country (have you looked at how many more women leaders there are in Nordic countries?) and our methods violence are a simple reinforcement for the hate crimes against women in ANY country we invade and try to control. When the men in Afghanistan feel as though they are powerless against invading peoples, they naturally take their hatred and frustration out on those who are already subjugated--wom en. And so the cycle of domination perpetuates. The best thing that could ever happen in Afghanistan will not begin with the U.S. but rather with the WOMEN in Afghanistan (and all other misogynist countries) when they succeed in overthrowing patriarchy and the domination ethos which it espouses. continued...
Let us not suffer from tunnel vision, take a step back, and reinvision a world where our leaders are in equal part women who have los ovarios to overthrow traditional methods of the secrecy and domination that a patriarchal system espouses. Let us all not fear speaking truth and let us applaud those who make any attempt for truth telling/reveali ng regardless of the outcome or how difficult the process may become. Thanks for the comments Billy Bob.
If we were playing poker, and my cards were all on the table, but yours were almost part of your lapel, you'd have significant advantage.
If i wasn't an athiest i'd say GOD BLESS JULIAN ASSANGE.
Long Live Wikileaks !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!
Oh, so we'll have to read Le Monde then?
Oh, and remember, Ms. Plame was only dealing with issues concerning nuclear materials and weapons, and the proliferation of such items! Duh, and double duh, and a good Homer Simpson doh, to boot!!!
The senior citizen who held up the big sign at a Tea Party rally which said, "Keep the government's hands off my Medicare;" how does the revealing of this material affect him and his kind? It doesn't.
How does the revealing of all this material affect the people who waited on line for 12 hours on 'Black Friday' to buy a new iPhone at a bargain price? It doesn't.
The Roman Empire fell because people got 'stupid;' they ate off pewter plates (lead poisoning) and couldn't think straight.
The American Empire is falling because we are swallowing whole, what the corporate media feeds us as fast food. We still seem to believe that we are a 'democracy.' We are in name only; we are a plutocracy. Don't know what a plutocracy is? Look it up, kiddies...we've been stepping in it for a while now. Our bargain footwear is covered in it. And, they were such pretty shoes once.
Sad so sad.
The story of Christ's crucifixion is a great example; sure it can be and is denied, but denial of a truth has never and will never change one fact.
They probably wanted us to bomb Afghanistan and Iraq as well. I always found it interesting that the ONLY civilian airplane in the ENTIRE U.S. that was allowed to fly the day after the attacks was one that was flying all over the country picking up the rest of the bin laden family (with a military escort), to help them escape the U.S. before the American public got ugly.
Does anyone else find these facts a bit at odds with all we've been sold by the MSM for the past 9 years?
We will have to await the consequences.
- What hypocrites in the White House! - Look at the Valerie Plames' case.
The White House and Pentagon have systematically excluded the American people and its friends and allies from what is actually going on on the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan. They have lied and betrayed all of us regarding their true objectives for the attack of Iraq. They have implemented so-called embedded journalism to manipulate the public. They conducted a propaganda warfare only paralleled by totalitarian systems of the past.
Now there is WikiLeaks truely "promoting democracy and open government". What a satire. Somehow, again and again, through sometimes murky and nebulous ways, justice prevails. Isn't it great! - Thanks Julian Assange - a true Don Quixote of modern times.
Check out my second comment regarding Valerie Plame.
The article itself, if you had read it, outs the "secret machinations" of Russia, Saudi Arabia, and the U.K. as well.
We're HAVING a discussion right in front of you. You're invited to join. Other conservatives have already commented - some of them have commented several times. What's the problem?
IT'S BUSH'S FAULT, (throw in a Cheney now and again too)
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